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So, I'm doing a little exercise here that I would like you Forgeites to help me out with. This is not actually the start to a game. It's a streamlined version of the process you'd undergo to start a game of Mage Blade, though. We will be staying conceptual, without dipping deeply into the mechanics. My goals with this are to get an idea of the types of concepts that will come from this process, what questions and concerns will arise during the process, and to get an idea of how well it produces compelling characters and situations.

This process will have 3 phases. Phase 1 will consist of making suggestions for, and then selecting, an Endgame Goal. Phase 2 will be character conceptualization. Phase 3 will be selecting Foundational Goals.

What is an Endgame Goal, you ask? Think about it like watching a movie. You generally know what's going to happen by the end pretty early on, but you watch to see *how* it happens, and what happens to lead up to it. Endgame is like that. For instance, it doesn't take you long to find out that the Deathstar is bad news, so it's got to go. Destroying the Deathstar could totally be an Endgame Goal. Or even defeating the Empire, if you wanted to think longer term. The idea here is a broad-strokes statement of something you'd like to see happen in the fiction. Don't get too detailed or specific. If it takes more than a simple sentence with, at most one "and" or one "with", then you'll probably want to rethink it. You also don't want to prescript any details. "Defeat Sauron" would be a good Endgame Goal. "Defeat Sauron by destroying the One Ring in the fires of Mount Doom" would not. Also, to be clear, the Endgame Goal is an overarching campaign goal, applicable to all player characters.

Now, to do this, you'll need some sort of context, some idea of the setting. I'm not going to try to overwhelm you with setting, so I'm going to accept that some of the suggestions here may not fit into the actual game. That's perfectly fine. All you really need to know is that it's pretty traditional in setting. Elves, dwarves, humans, orcs, all of that. Ancient wars, mysterious treasures and plenty of opportunity for adventure.

There is absolutely no limit on how many people may participate. I'd like as many people as are interested to make suggestions, ask questions or make comments. What I'm not looking for is suggestions on other ways to do this. If you don't like it, feel free to let me know why, but the process will go on as I've planned. Afterward, I will re-read everything, and open it up for more general discussion.

So, Phase 1: Endgame Goal. What have you got? I'll chime in with clarifications and my own thoughts once we get rolling.

I presume we're supposed to just post our suggestions to this thread? If I'm wrong just ignore me, if not then I'm taking a crack at this, let's see, start with a couple of pretty basic ones then;

collect/protect/destroy the keys to an ancient superweapon and/or to the prison of a locked up god/eldritch abomination,

defeat an evil overlord,

discover why exactly there was an ancient war,

prevent the same events that lead to the ancient war from happening again,

cause / prevent an ancient prophecy,

all of the above,

7s,

My original intent was to wait a bit before replying, allow a few more responses, but I think that I was perhaps less than clear. What you've given me are several excellent templates. Almost none of these is ready to be an Endgame Goal. They need a little bit more heart and investment to work. Some of them have un-made decisions inherent in them, namely the first. So choose one of these, and finish it. Imbue it with life. Make it interesting and intriguing.

I'm just the GM of this little exercise, your humble servant. I'll give my opinions and guidance, but the suggestions must come from you.

Lets give this a go, then!

"Eat the sun."

How about: "Marry my sister." Or if that's too funky-N, "Marry my girlfriend."

DWeird,

I have to confess, I'm boggling at your suggestion. What do you mean? Do you mean like, literally eating the sun, shoving it down your gullet and swallowing? Or is there some inside joke or slang that I'm not getting.

Ron,

We'll step away from incestuous yearnings. Marrying your girlfriend is doable, but I see it requiring one of two assumptions: That everyone ends up with a girlfriend to marry, or that the group is cool with the campaign revolving around your character's girlfriend. It took me some thinking to even figure how this might work as an Endgame for a fantasy adventure story, but I'm seeing Krull and other such wedding prophecy stuff, so I think it's quite doable. Is this what you had in mind?

When it comes to fantasy, I'm a firm believer in "make the most ludicrous statement possible, then try to justify it somehow."

So, uhh...

The sun went rampant and is destroying the world with scorching rays and an armada of light, and must be stopped. However, since eliminating it altogether would just mean endless and very very cold night, its powers must be taken from it, and the only way to do it is to carve it to little pieces and consume them.

It all makes perfect sense.

...huh.

While such would be largely implausible in the setting I'm writing for the game, I didn't provide that setting, so it is completely irrelevant. With a little thought, that idea could definitely work as a fantasy adventure goal.

However, with your expanded explanation, I wonder if "Eat the Sun" as an Endgame Goal restricts the how of the real goal, which is to stop the sun from destroying the world. What think you?

I'm hoping to get a couple other good suggestions, so we'll have a good spread of choices before we select one and move on to phase 2.

Become the leader of the largest (and only) orc empire to ever exist.

Hi Lance,

Your responses to my suggestions seem weak to me. I suggest a second look, so that you can either (i) say how they don't work for Mage Blade in some way that makes sense, or (ii) see how they might work for Mage Blade after all. I am not posting to argue with you. It seems much better to me to help with the game by pushing the point back for further thought.

For my first suggestion, no "incestuous yearnings" were involved. I didn't say a word about the Endgame goal being my character's personal and emotional goal. "Marry my sister" may be the last thing he'd want. It may also be the only thing that saves his tribe / puts down the angry spirit / fulfills the prophecy / or whatever, so wanting or not, it may be what he has to strive to do.

Regarding the girlfriend, I don't see your point of view at all. She could be the corpse-eating Queen of Night or something like that. Or even if not, then the fact that she's affianced to another, powerful person might be all that's needed.

Are you really telling me you can't imagine how a romantic entanglement could be the hinge-point of a setting-shaking climax? If not, then OK and I won't argue with you ... but that might be something you'd like to specify in your explanation of Endgame goals. I can't think of most people I play with not posing similar stuff to the two I described.

Best, Ron

Weak? Apparently I liked Krull better than you did, then.

They can absolutely work. A game centered around you marrying your sister would tweak me personally. Lines and veils, yadda.

Also, at no point in the game play, from Endgame Goal creation to actually achieving Endgame are goals required to be in-character motivations. They are things you want to see happen in the story or to your character, completely without regard to what the fictional (and at this point completely non-existent) character may desire. Bilbo wanted to stay comfy in his Hobbit Hole. Tolkien had other ideas.

It took me a moment to think of how a "marry someone" goal could be the center of a campaign. It wasn't my initial expectation. Once I got over the "WTF?" reflex, I began to see possibilities.

The issue I mentioned I may have failed to articulate well. Your Goal can be read one of two ways... Either more than one person gets to marry a girlfriend (assuming they actually succeed at the goal) or only one person does, and either way, this is the central theme of the entire campaign. In the former case, it seems maybe a little contrived, but completely doable. In the latter case, it's important to be sure that the group is okay with someone being the "main character". A variant on the latter case might leave WHO marries "their girlfriend" completely open, letting it be established in play, so that by the commencement of Endgame, it's clear who has to marry their girlfriend, and what sorts of obstacles still remain to be overcome to achieve that.

Really, what I was trying to tease out is what sorts of stories you were seeing as possible with the goals you suggested. I see some possibilities, you probably see completely different ones.

I'm also hoping DWierd chimes in further. His idea was completely incomprehensible to me at first, but now I see some possibilities, and I'd like to know more about what he thinks.

Bret,

You sure do like your orcs. With this one, might you see the players all taking on orcish characters, and possibly vying for leadership at the end? Or maybe not even orcish characters, for that matter. Do you maybe see a leader emerging in play, and the rest of the players falling into supporting roles?

These types of questions would likely not even be asked at the table, where we'd actually be sitting down to play, FYI. In this case, because we're NOT actually going to go beyond characters and initial situations, I'm asking some more probing questions to explore a bit the sorts of stories people would use such a system to create and play.

Well, regarding "destroy the deathstar" restricts the how of the real goal, which is to stop the empire from destroying planets. Maybe a diplomatic solution was in order? Assassinating and taking over the Emperor's throne? Moving the parts of the universe threatened by the apparatus to a pocket dimension? Stuff like that.

That said, I can see why you'd have issues with the Endgame goal as I proposed it - there doesn't seem to be any inherent force that would drive the group towards it ('A "death"star? I guess we better get on it!' vs. '...why are we planning on eating the sun again?'), and that is something that has to be determined separetelly.

But maybe that's a good thing? It may restrict the "how" to a very narrow reason, but the "why" is left open to explore. There is this powerful image of a sun being sliced up and then consumed at the end of the game, but how exactly that happens isn't known yet. Maybe you have to tame a spacefaring wyrm to do the carving and eating for you? Maybe you do a ritual that brings the sun down to earth, scorching half the world but bringing it within the heroes' reach? Maybe whoever eats the sun doesn't do it to stop it from rampaging, but to bring about that neverending night that's been mentioned?


It's kind of difficult to disassociate the Endgame goal from general expectations of the setting and the gameplan. You change the Endgame - you change, even if in broad strokes, what happens in the game.

Makes any sense?

DWeird,

Your point is good. To go back to the Deathstar -vs- stop the Empire from blowing up planets example, it is definitely a matter of what you want to happen in the end. In this case, it sounds like you are invested in the specific ending of stellar consumption moreso than the idea of saving the world.

Which is perfectly legitimate.

So we've got:

- Marriage to sister/girlfriend
- Eating the Sun
- Rule an Orcish Empire

Gonna see what else might come up, but if nothing does, we've got enough to go forward with.

I hope this fits your criteria for what you want, if not... feel free to ignore me. =)

Investigating a group's connection to an ancient being known only as Leviathan.

Michael,

Almost. Investigation is a process. Finding something is a goal.

So how about "Find out what Leviathan is, and what <group>'s connection to it is."?

Michael? =)

Yeah, hey, whatever works for you, guy! I'm interested in the next phase of this thing.

Yeah, color me red. I hit reply, and I was like okay.. Michael wasn't it? Michael Miller? That sounds right. When I reviewed it after hitting Post, I realized I messed it up. There IS a Michael Miller running around the Forge, though.

But yes, I think we've got enough to go on to finish this phase.

So we've got:
- Marry my Girlfriend
- Eating the Sun
- Rule the orcish empire
- Find out how <group> is connected to Leviathan

Part 2 of phase 1 is to pick one. Which one sounds the most intriguing? Anyone can chime in here, not just the people who made the suggestions.

Uncover the secrets of never ending youth to bolster your strength as high priest of Thetyr-Gypt Gundtken.

Or how about ... Uncover the secrets of never ending youth to grow political prowess.... Better?

Tel (if I can call ya Tel)

Sounds good. I'd suggest one small adaptation, though.

Uncover the secrets of never ending youth.

Leave the why to be determined individually for each character, during play.

Any votes for which of these 5 we'd like to use for further exploration?

"Marry the sun-goddess of the orcish empire, then eat her"?

I'm leaning towards rule the orcish empire or uncover the secrets of never ending youth...

Unashamedly, I vote for the one I suggested. =)
That theme is what interests me the most right now.

Hi Lance,

I'd rather not vote, but simply have you pick, influenced by votes so far as you see fit.

Best, Ron

Ron,

I was basically certain you were going to do that.

For the record, the 'vote' stage of this isn't a hardcoded part of the system that's being tested. At the table, the group should just toss around some ideas and pick one by consensus that everyone likes. Given that this exercise is less intimate, and there's less context into which to insert your ideas for Endgame Goal, we're putting forward ideas, discussing them, then "voting".

I've been reading as the last several posts were made, but I decided to hold out until I got off work (i.e. now) to reply, as I sometimes have a tendency to over-respond.

So, looking at the votes, we've got one each for the orcish empire, never ending youth, and secret organization of Leviathan.. Then a mish-mash of three different ones.

My selection is going to be the orcish empire, based on the fact that it's the one that was voted for by someone other than the guy who came up with it.

So, as we move on into Phase 2, our Endgame Goal is going to be to rule the only orcish empire.

Phase 2 will be "character creation". Again, we're not going to get into the gritty nits or get too in-depth with back story or what have you. Let's focus on general concepts, while keeping the Endgame Goal in mind. If it takes more than 3-4 sentences to describe your concept, you're over-thinking it. Some rough guidelines is that your characters are probably in the 20-25 age bracket, though they can be a bit older, and even as young as 10. Write down some notes. Again, the main races are human, elven, dwarven, orcish. Don't feel pressured to play an orc if another idea is interesting, either.

Once you're done describing your concept, pick an element out of the 4 typical ones of Earth, Water, Air and Fire, or a 5th, Void to act as kind of like a zodiac sign. It should be roughly descriptive of personality type. Don't worry too much about how *I* might define the elements, just go with what feels right.

Well, phase 1 ended, but what I'm about say is likely something I'd say if I were actually present at the game table, so here it goes anyway.

I don't have much love for "rule the orcish empire" as a standalone endgame, but I feel like it would go great when coupled with any (and I do mean any) of the other endgames proposed. Empire building is a pretty straightforward affair - you go around and bash in the skulls of those who say that an orcish empire isn't the coolest thing to have. When they're good and dead, the game ends... However, if you couple that with sniffing out a conspiracy, love (or at least marriage) affairs, mythic beings messing with the world, or sources of never ending youth, you give me a lot more room to wiggle around.

The orcish empire is great as a backdrop, but I don't really feel it as the focus.

As for the character...

Snikskab, the orcish runner. Gets information from one camp to another, quick. A showoff and a braggart, but, given that whenever a battle commences, he's always found running the other way, he's more often ridiculed - sometimes behind his back, sometimes to his face - than given respect. Vengeful, petty... and creative about it.

Air.

D (if I can call ya D): Interesting thing here, and yes, it would definitely be brought up at the table.. What if we're not building an empire? What if we're taking an existing one over, from the inside? What if the initial situation instead starts with orcs as a slave race? None of that has been determined in this single sentence. But yes, the ideal state is that everyone is on-board with the Endgame Goal that comes up.

A point to consider is that your character doesn't actually have to want this goal. It's simply what the story will move toward, what we as players are theoretically interested in seeing happen. Your character can be staunchly against it, or orthogonally against it.. Maybe Snikskab isn't against an orcish empire, but he'd be pretty terrified of ruling it himself.

Good character offering. I'm definitely keen to see what else we get.

Human, barbarian ancestry, deeply trained in and committed to a specific magery/sorcery school, noted for ruthless and fair leadership. Let me know if that's enough to work with.

Best, Ron

Ron,

It's enough for a concept.

I'd like you to choose your elemental "zodiac" sign, though, and a name would help for ease of reference.

I'm also curious (and curiosity is all it is) as to what magery/sorcery school you think would be an appropriate discipline for this character.

Hi Lance,

I think I need a little more context - can you point me to the right sources for Mage Blade reading? I tried to look through threads but got mixed up. I don't know if there are canonical wizard-mage-sorcerer schools or not, or whether I should be making one up. I also like to take character names seriously, and your description of "standard fantasy" isn't working for me. I need a little bit more to go on.

For this guy, the zodiac sign would be Libra.

Best, Ron

My character is Asmerith Grandenwater, an elven ex-slave of a wealthy orc slave trader. His time as a slave has caused him to view life more like an orc than an elf, this aspect is reinforced by how easily he rallied the orc slaves to rise against their cruel master. Asmerith has lost his right eye and left arm in gladiatorial combat yet he remains an amazingly efficient and brutal killer. Through all of his experiences Asmerith has retained a strong sense of nobility, likely feeding off of his noble heritage and feelings of superiority amongst a primitive species.
Asmerith's element is air.

Hope this is enough, or... not too much. =)

Matthew,

It nears the border of too much without crossing. I can totally see how this would work with the full character generation rules, and I can see how it'd be fun, so I'd say it's fine.

Ron,

There are canonical magical schools, with curriculums and uniforms and oaths of fraternity and all that. There are also hedge mages, and master-apprentice relationships. I don't want you to necessarily make a character that fits in the setting though, so much as one that can be made with the system. So any sort of magical school is great for this process.

If that's still a little too unconstrained for you, then here're some examples of Schools: There're one each for each of the 4 primary elements (Earth, Water, Air, Fire). There's an order of warrior-mages who specialize in light and life magic. There's a dark mirror order of knights that focuses on necromantic magic. There is a small, obscure school of nature devotees, whose magic tends toward protection of, and oneness with, the wilderness. There's a guild (not a formal school) of weather magi that specialize at assisting sailors make long, dangerous journeys. There are small, traditional ways of magic that involve helping your crops and mending small injuries that are common among farmers. The rich hire private tutors for their children, who teach a broadly useful spectrum of magical theory.

Is that enough to work with?

Libra is an Air sign. So does Air work for you?

Man, I had a similar problem to the one Ron had. I need (want!) more information on the starting setting.

Quote from: Lance D. Allen on August 25, 2009, 04:27:14 AM
What if we're not building an empire? What if we're taking an existing one over, from the inside? What if the initial situation instead starts with orcs as a slave race? None of that has been determined in this single sentence.

Any of these would be fine and good, but just as long as I get to know in advance what I'm sticking my head into. Knowing would have helped me to create a character that has deeper connections to the world... Right now, I just went with a vague "orcish" feeling ("have tribes and are warlike") and went with a character concept that's doesn't really have a strong connection to the community he starts in, and some good-ish reasons to sever the ties he does have.

Now, what actually happened in my head was a lot less orderly and linear than I presented this, and I am rather happy with the character I did end up with, I still wonder a bit what I would have if I could have chosen a less, uh, wandering-prone role than I did. A plump magistrate in the decadent human Empire? The head slave of a group assigned to a mirthril mine?

Or is the "you're a wanderer tied to no man nor no land" thing actually a prerequisite for the sort of loosely-defined story you're going? Not so much that one HAS to make a 'wanderer' character, but rather - it's prudent to make a wanderer, since characters with deeper connections are more likely to get stuck, not being able to move towards the Endgame in plausible and interesting ways.

Just thinking out loud.

Hi Lance,

Much better. I confess I cannot resist the dark order of knights with necromantic magic.

If possible, I'd prefer his element be Earth. I see him as barbarian-born (earthy) with a strong highly-educated makeover (which is the air, but it's not his primary identity). I don't know if that's allowed by the rules.

Best, Ron

Quote from: DWeird on August 25, 2009, 03:02:48 PM
Man, I had a similar problem to the one Ron had. I need (want!) more information on the starting setting.

[random tangent] I'm use to playing in games with no established setting... I think its fun to create something in a void like that, make a piece of the setting yours through description via your character. Maybe that's just me though? [/random tangent]

'Starting setting' was not the best way for me to put it. 'Starting position' or some such may be better.

Setting is about "how things are" - when you play, you play within it, toying around with details of varying, but usually minor, importance. It exists independently of you.

Position is about what's given to you at the start of play - you take it, play with it, change it, break it, take the pieces, and play with them some more. But there does have to be something to take at the start!

Character sketch --

Ahldam Hammerhand the dwarf. Loves to drink mead, dark ale, anything dark and heavy. Brash and outspoken but quite loyal and surprisingly caring to those close to him. Light  on his feet ( for a dwarf ) and skilled with battle axes and two handed great axes. Practices as an apprentice blacksmith and is hoping to become an armorer for his clan. Served his required 7 year stint in his military body where he aquired his proficiency with axes, and close combat. His elemental type is fire, and like his clan - hatred and suspicion of anything non-dwarvish, in particular orcish, has been driven deeply into his core.

Or if that is too much...

Character sketch --

Ahldam Hammerhand the dwarf. Big burly dwarf, but surprisingly fleet footed.  Practices as an apprentice blacksmith and is hoping to become an armorer for his clan. His elemental type is fire... Hatred and suspicion of anything non-dwarvish, in particular orcish, has been driven deeply into his core.

D:

The really-real game will have a much more detailed setting. My current struggle with setting (which this exercise is helping to inform on) is to put in enough to inspire and give shape to adventures without overdoing it. My current thoughts on how to present it is in distinct chunks, each built up of people and organizations with interlaced goals and a set piece or two. Things you can drop PCs into and play, but shouldn't feel constrained by.

I am experimenting with giving you too little information, to see how people fill in the gaps. Among various other, hard to define needs that this exercise is meeting (in addition to being interesting and fun) that one is important. Play at the table will be better able to nail down the starting 'position'. Hell, discussion in this thread can nail it down, as it's not against the rules. Mage Blade is very, very player-centric. The things you decide for your character, unless they strongly clash with what we've agreed with so far (such as the setting) are basically law. I don't get to tell you "No, that won't work in the game I'm planning on running". You all get to tell me what you're interested in playing, and I and your fellow players get to figure out how all of that works together.

Prior to "picking" The orcish Endgame Goal, I literally had no idea what sort of game we'd be 'playing'. That's the way campaign and character generation should feel in real play, too.

Ron,

Earth is perfect. It's about as influential on his personality as a zodiac sign.. Meaning that it *can* be entirely wrong.. Or it can be somewhat right, as I've noticed most zodiac signs are in real life. It's a roleplaying carrot, not a stick to be whapped with.

Tel,

The first sketch is fine. It's more than is *needed* for this experiment, but that's not a big problem. I just don't want essays of character background, and I want to avoid the "play before you play" issue. As the real character generation system is a lifepath system, your first sketch will mostly work for it, too.

So far:

Snikskab, the orcish runner: Air
Asmerith Grandenwater, an elven ex-slave/rabble rouser: Air
Ron's nameless barbaric necro-knight: Earth
Ahldam Hammerhand the dwarven smith/warrior: Fire

Perhaps Ron's guy is bound by a barbaric tradition where names are powerful secrets and only by manipulating the dead can one learn a warrior's true name. =)
Maybe I'm drifting a little too close to Planescape: Torment...?

No, it only means that without some idea of Earth-analogues for culture, I don't have enough to go on for a name, and I hate the pseudo-Greek/Norman modern fantasy standards (Arion! Morianna! Galron!) and their monosyllabic Turette's Syndrome accompaniments for orcs or whoever like them (Bork! Bonk! Arrgh!).

My character's name is Lance.

Best, Ron

Ron,

Suddenly your character seems much cooler and more compelling than before... but you might largely hate the names I've got in the setting, then.

Named human characters:
- Randahl Arien
- Morgen Zanduur
- Sabrine Crysse
- Fellahn-Shad Xamirre
- Pethor Lythelis

Named orcish characters:
- Karak
- Gothrek
- Goroth

Named elven characters:
- L'Reale Iridial
- Pol D'Avarius
- Elan D'Avarius
- Tyrialin Fetharis-D'Nalle (half-elven; Fetharis is a human surname)

Named dwarven characters:
- Gunter Lorgard
- Lorya Druthfang

I'm going to be posting the beginning of Phase 3 a little later on today. Anyone else who would like to toss a character out there is fine, but they should follow the directions for Phase 3 as well.

Okay! Phase 3 begins now. By this point in a real game, we'd have gone through the full character creation system, choosing lifepaths and getting your skills, attributes and traits. You now have 50 points to purchase Foundational Goals.

What is a Foundational Goal? Well, at its most basic, it's a goal you have for your character, right when play starts. There are a few guidelines regarding the sorts of goals you choose. A foundational goal doesn't need to point you toward the Endgame Goal, not yet. There are two main considerations to keep in mind. The first is that the primary purpose of these goals is to get your characters in motion. They serve a similar function to the Kicker in Sorcerer, or the Best Interests in In a Wicked Age. Getting your character moving can involve getting your characters together, if a party-based game is what you want. Even if you don't, it's a good idea if your Foundational Goals can be used to make your path cross that of other player characters. The second consideration is that maybe your character concept isn't *quite* complete. He's on the cusp of being complete, but there's a thing or two he hasn't done yet. You can create a Foundational Goal that gets you there. In this case, they serve a similar function to Vampire: the Masquerade's Prelude, and Dogs in the Vineyard's Initiation scenes.

When it comes to how to spend your points, what you want to keep in mind is the rule that every 10 points you put into a goal means 1 significant challenge to overcome. A 'significant' challenge might be a fight, or a series of skill checks, or even a single difficult check. It might even not involve dice rolls, if that's appropriate. There is no specific hard-and-fast rule for values that aren't multiples of 10, but with that as a basic guide, it should be easy enough to adjudicate those other values. Anything other than multiples of 10 would probably be exceptions to the rule.

Snikskab the runner:

Get back at that bastard of high rank who insulted me (20)

Fight in a real battle for once (20)

Punch an elf.(10)

~*~| Lead his fellow ex-slaves to a better life and perhaps a better society. [30]

~*~| Reclaim his position as Heir to the Grandenwater Estate by any means necessary. [20]

Matthew,

Your goals seem fairly lofty. These are the things you want to accomplish early on, before the adventure has kicked into high gear?

I realize I completely failed to make that clear.. You will probably resolve most, if not all, of your Foundational Goals within the first several sessions. From the fictional and mechanical results of your resolved Goals, you will set more goals, which will continue to carry the story forward. All goals after Foundational Goals will push toward or detract from Endgame, and you will get more points as you go, which can be spent on character advancement or reinvested into further goals.

Achieve the next rank in the necromantic order - 20

Marry the lord's daughter - 20

Visit the old tribal shaman's grave - 10

Hm, alright... Let me revise mine then.

~*~| Investigate our once living master's organization in order to find more slave camps. [20]

~*~| Scout out a good location to establish a temporary, shabby base of operations where my newly liberated friends and I can hang out and shoot the breeze. [20]

~*~| Seek information pertaining to the fate of the ol' Grandenwater Estate. [10]

Ahldam's foundational goals:

Continue to improve my abilities as a blacksmith until I have achieved master status [20]
Customize a scale mail breast with my family crest on it as my entry into armory [20]
Learn to home brew golden mead [10]

Tel,

Your goals appear, to me, to be somewhat problematic. I think they are great "finish the concept" goals, but I don't know that I see how they get your character in motion, or cause him to cross paths with other characters.

Is there something you've got in mind that I'm failing to see? Or do you maybe want to change one or two of them?

Lance,

How about --

Continue my pursuit of becoming a master blacksmith by taking some of my axe blades to market for trade.
Find a suitable bit of scale mail in the market for work on my entry into armory.
Seek instruction on brewing golden mead 'home brew' from the head brew master in a tavern near the market.

Do these seem to put me in motion to cross the path of the other characters? Either on the way to market, or while I'm in the market trading goods or seeking instruction?

Tel

Tel,

I think I see what you're going for here. You're trying to set this guy up as someone who will be "accidentally" swept up into the story, right? Your goals involve him going to a public place and moving around talking to people. What I'm seeing you desiring happen here is that you overhear something, or in some other way get caught up in something that will be fun.

You do not want to trade your axes, buy a breastplate, and talk to the brew master, then head home to continue your daily life, correct?

Lance,

Right on! It will just be a spontaneous natural extension of his 'everyday' living, but will meet his stirring desire for 'action' as your rather stereotypical dwarf.

JayMc

Alright then, Jay(?), it could use some tweaking, but I think it'll do for the purposes of this exercise.

I think, for the most part, I've got what I need from the phased steps of this thread. Choosing Foundational Goals is the last step before beginning live play.


What would happen next: At this point, we'd sit down and start roleplaying. I as the GM would be looking at your Goals, and weaving them together. I have no power to come up with shit on the fly; Everything I've got is in service to your stated Goals. Fairly soon, you'll start to accomplish your Goals, and you'll get the payout in Advancement Points. Some of these, you'll probably invest into improving your character, but others, you'll want to reinvest into new Goals. Goals at this point fall into one of two categories: Rising Actions and Falling Actions. Rising Actions are Goals which push toward Endgame, and increment a number called the Endcount. Falling Actions are Goals which distract or detract from Endgame, and deincrement the Endcount. The idea behind this is that the pacing of the game is set organically, based on the types of goals you set and pursue. When the Endcount reaches a certain number (200 for this group, incidentally; The points you got to buy your Foundational Goals is an even split of the Endcount value amongst all players) then the game enters Endgame, and we resolve one way or the other whether or not one or more of you end up ruling the only orcish empire.

What I've learned:

- Color and Context is definitely important. I couldn't sell this game without a setting, even if I wanted to. When set before two groups (now) of independent, creative people, they've floundered to various degrees on Goal setting and character creation without some background color.

- I definitely need to expand my horizons. Both instances of the experiment have resulted in 'WTF?' moments, that, when I thought about them charitably, were actually pretty cool ideas. I mean, "Eat the Sun"? Who thinks of stuff like that?

- Clarity. I had to make less comments overall in this thread because, even though I missed a crucial bit, I was able to build off of my mistakes in the last one, and present what you needed to know more clearly.

- A bunch of other stuff that's hard to put into words. Chief among my current impressions is that I've hit on a winner in this overall system.

What I'd like before we close:

Your overall impressions. There was some discussion during the process, but now I'd like to know what you thought of this whole process. Specifically, does it make you interested in playing this campaign? Does it make you interested in your character, and your fellow players' characters? It works for me. I'd definitely like to see how your characters would come together to shape the story. It's definitely a pity that I am doing this purely as an exercise in this portion of the game, because I'd love to complete characters and actually play.

One thing that was brought up in the previous thread (mostly in whispers with Mike Holmes, for those who might have been reading along) was that by determining the Endgame, you take much of the fun out of playing. I disagreed, but I did say I'd bring up his concerns over here. My thoughts are that the Endgame gives a general shape to the end, but doesn't prescribe enough of it to take any of the discovery out of it. The events that happen on the way to Endgame are likely to have a very large effect on the specific events of Endgame. With this exact Endgame Goal, I'm sure I could run through several different iterations with different characters, and come up with vastly different events in the Endgame.

So, I'd like your thoughts on:

- The process, overall
- Whether or not this makes for a compelling situation and characters
- Whether knowing the general shape of the ending seems like it would damage your fun.
- Anything else.

Oh! And one last thing: This is the write up I did of the Elements as they might reflect personalities, with a few footnotes on the original text from Johnstone, who did some critique for me. Prime Spheres (http://"http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AVAQjrin533mZGZ0NmJwYm5fNGNwMnJzNmNx&hl=en")

How well did your expectations of what the Elements meant match up with mine? Would you change your Element now that you've read my writeup?

I liked the ability to set the Endgame in advance. Gets us all on the same page on what we expect from the game, without actually revealing any intimate details. More than once, I've found myself thinking of the endgame goal as a poster for a movie - big flash, main characters, main event.

I have mixed feelings about the fact that the Endgame is the sole means of focus for the game, however. What stops this game from floundering in as many directions as there are characters, if not more? Is bringing in the focus something the GM does? Something the players have to take care of? We didn't really play, so we there's no way to see if my concern is actually relevant, but in case it is...

Falling Actions? What the hell? In game which is supposed to be about moving towards the Endgame, you introduce a way to go away from it? Whyyy? I mean, I can see how tying in the Endgame advancement solely to character goals could create artificial situations where somebody has completed a personal goal, the Endgame counter goes up, but there's no movement in the fiction that would explain why that counter just went up... But if that's the issue, there are better ways around that - whenever someone completes a lump of goals, they get to narrate off-character, showing how exactly the Endgame is creeping up. In our case... Large swathes of orcs gearing up for war, rulers of neighboring countries being assasinated, a powerful neighbour striking a secret deal with the orcish rulership, those sort of things.

I'd also like more connection between the characters - not saying they should team up all-party like, but I would like some assurance, straight from the start, that their paths would cross in interesting ways. Maybe this would be mitigated by being face-to-face ("Hey, what if our two guys..!"), but if not, maybe allow one foundational goal be created by another player, as a "I'd like you to move in this general direction" thing? For instance, I'd love to see Ron's character reanimate some of Ahldam's dwarven ancestors. Lance is likely to get close to the wilder parts of the world sooner or later, and Ahldam would likely follow... And there's obviously some connection that can be forged between Snikskab and Asmerith, but I don't really *feel* it, and would love to get some guidance in the matter.

Just a few rough ideas.

As for Element... I chose Air because I kept thinking of my character as "lofty." Had I seen the Prime Spheres text first, I'd have likely chosen Water something or other, maybe Fire, but now I definitelly see Snikskab as Air Descendant. Not knowing what the element is "supposed" to mean helped a little, I think - now I have a general feel of my character on the one hand, and an archetype on the other. They don't exactly match, and there's some healthy tension that I like and would like to explore.

I think setting the endgame in advance creates some realistic boundaries for the expression of the tale. I'm still wondering if any character - NPC or otherwise would ever really get to 'rule the orcish empire'. Seeing as how there are slaves and racial enemies involved in the original character creation, I would expect that there is a possibility the endgame might not be accomplished, but that in achieving this level of 'non-accomplishment' there would be engaging and fully satisfying gameplay nonetheless. I'm wondering if running an endgame game in the ground would also qualify as a successful session of gameplay for this campaign/scenario/series on which we are brain storming??? It seems like quite an interesting form to pursue at this point. I couldn't get the link to work for the information on the Prime Spheres so I can't really speak to that item at all. As far as whether this is a compelling situation in which ti start the game.... I was a bit hesitant on my goall setting because I wasn't sure how general or specific the GM or the game would need it to be. I can see my charcter Ahldam in the market getting involved with any number of the charcters potentially by showing of his weaponsmith by parading his axes and then becoming swept into the story by rumor mill... Or he could be working with the 'mead master' on learning from him and he could have a need for some aid with retrieving a stolen cart with 8 barrels of his best mead that was taken by an orcish band a
number of days before, and might I be willing to trade services for instruction? And in this way get further involved in a coup or resistance or further understanding of how far the orcs have gained a foothold, and how badly resistance should be mustered. In my character's case, I see him as a strict antagonist to the entire endgame of 'rule the orcish empire', but as a participant in the motion of the game as a gestalt toward that resolve, it is quite compelling to work to fit in goals that aren't so specific to endgame that they seem contrived to s3erve the plot, but to come up with goals which can be naturally woven into the story either by myself as player or by the creativity of a good GM. I don't really know enough about the gaming system to remove the hesitancy I felt when creating my foundational goals. I was stuck with the thoughts of 'AM I going to by narrating my involvement, or is a GM going to weave my player in?'... I think it gives me ( as a player ) more latitude if I have control of how to get into the plot moving toward the endgame than if the GM is responsible. If it is a GM driven plot evolution I think my beginning motion tenets, or foundation goals would tend to be more pecifically assignable to make the jobn for the GM easy to piece together the initial set and setting....

D, (I'm pretty sure I asked your name the other day on IRC, but I'm horrible with names. I usually have to admit to having forgotten your name a couple times before I really get it)

QuoteMore than once, I've found myself thinking of the endgame goal as a poster for a movie - big flash, main characters, main event.

That. Is. PERFECT.

QuoteWhat stops this game from floundering in as many directions as there are characters, if not more? Is bringing in the focus something the GM does? Something the players have to take care of?

Your suggestions are the answer. There will be specific advice on how to guide players in creating goals if they need help, and how to weave disparate goals together as you go, but I think once the game gets rocking, setting goals that feed upon each other and support each other will begin to come naturally.

QuoteFalling Actions? What the hell? In game which is supposed to be about moving towards the Endgame, you introduce a way to go away from it? Whyyy?

I'm very, very glad you asked this question. Not because I expected it, but because I didn't. I do know the answer already, though. The intention is that the interplay of Rising and Falling Actions will act as a pacing mechanic. If the group wants to slow things down, they'll introduce some Falling Actions. If they want to explore a whole side-plot, they can do so, without having to worry that their accomplishments will suddenly spring Endgame on them before they're ready. If your group is keen on getting to Endgame, they're going to set a lot of Rising Actions, and get there fast. If they're wanting a more meandering story, with lots of expository sidetracks, then they'll Introduce more Falling Actions. I think most groups will fall somewhere in between, with a decided bias toward Rising Actions, with just enough Falling Actions to keep it from ending before they're done with the arc.

Regarding connection between characters, I think this format may have a bit to do with it. My previous effort suffered from the same thing, although a couple of the players aimed their Foundational Goals almost directly at other player characters. In a face to face game, or even a semi-real time online game setup, there would be more cross-talk, and I think the connections would be stronger.

Also, this?

Quotemaybe allow one foundational goal be created by another player, as a "I'd like you to move in this general direction" thing?

An amazing idea. I don't think I'll make it the rule, but I'll definitely put it in as an option to play with. Maybe 20-40% of your Foundational Goals are made by/with another player as an option.

Tel/Jay,

Endgame doesn't advocate that the Goal be accomplished. It only requires that it be addressed and resolved. Basically, at the beginning of the game, one or more player thinks that it would be cool for this to happen by the end of the arc. By the end of the arc, it will have happened, failed to happen, or some sort of compromised situation will have occurred. Maybe the orcish empire will be on the brink of happening, but the popular leader will see that all that lies in store for him is bloodshed, and turn away, striking some sort of accord with the powers that be (a la Dune). All that Endgame requires is that, once it's done, we know what happens.

Quoteretrieving a stolen cart with 8 barrels of his best mead that was taken by an orcish band

That, right there, would have been a text-book PERFECT Foundational Goal.

Ahldam's overt starting role as antagonistic to the Endgame Goal is exactly the sort of thing that this exercise was for. Prior to this, I'd have assumed that all of the PCs would end up working toward accomplishing the Endgame Goal, directly or indirectly, willingly or unwillingly, knowingly or unknowingly. Now I see that it's not only possible for a PC to be in opposition to the Goal in the beginning, but possibly to be so for the entire game.. And this can be good, though perhaps tricky to do well.

QuoteI was stuck with the thoughts of 'AM I going to by narrating my involvement, or is a GM going to weave my player in?'

The answer is both. The players collectively have almost all the power to decide where the story goes. The GM's role isn't that of storyteller. Instead, he acts as a facilitator and author of the opposition; The players decide what happens, the GM decides what they have to overcome along the way. The basic mechanics of play are pretty traditional, but this relationship between the players, the GM and the narrative is pretty non-traditional.

Great comments. Keep 'em coming.

Hi Lance,

Here are a couple of thoughts about what we've done. First, I think you should give some thought to "fantasy" in Mage Blade. The fact that the world's most bog-standard D&D LARP dwarf made it through the process gives me pause, at least. I'm not expecting some kind of ultra-original freaky setting, but some kind of grounding or basic original statement that lets me know I'm not in a setting which is itself a second-order derivation of what's an imitation in the first place. This isn't about the names, either - keep what you have if you like it. I'm talking about what an "orc" is or what a "wizard school" is.

Second, one of the most important features of character creation is learning what can change about what I'm putting on the sheet. Without that, I have to fall back on the old-school standard assumption that the person running the game will "try to kill my guy" and I need to strategize his creation in such a way as to make it as unlikely as possible. This entire context for play is pretty broken and I think it's important to show why it doesn't apply in this game. Again, the solution is very easy, merely by explaining reward mechanics and pointing out their start-up features on the beginning sheet.

Third, I think that the term "endgame" is vague, and open to all manner of hasty interpretations especially by gamers, especially when considering settings of this sort. I rather liked the one we settled on, because the only thing that is truly fixed is that there is an orcish empire whose rule is open to question. I presume that our characters will end up having a shot at doing it, and that we as players commit at least to the possibility that they (our characters) might try. That's all. It doesn't dictate that the empire will end up being ruled at all, nor that said ruler would be one of us, nor anything else. Most especially, it doesn't mean that every one of our characters' situations and every one of the prepped events of play are directed solely at that aim.

I think such concepts are useful and fun, but I also think that explaining exactly what the term means, especially regarding presumptions about future events of play, would be a really good idea.

Best, Ron

I dropped in on this thread earlier but didn't have very much to offer.  To me, character creation ex nihilo like that is virtually impossible.  I would not have been able to create a character for this game until after I had read whatever there was to be read (for players) about orcs, and their empires or lack thereof.  This shouldn't be read as meaning that I would necessarily create a character aimed straight at that goal, but I would need some groundwork. 

I'm ambivalent about knowing the final outcome.  I don't think that knowing the destination would prevent me enjoying the journey, but I also have to say that I wouldn't actually bet money we'd get there.  I would also ask the following question: how long do you expect it to take?  I would be interested to see how you intend to manage the at-the-table play toward such an end.

Deciding the endgame would definitely have to precede developing a character, and probably, for me, both would also need a prior setting.  So, the process you have outlined would probably work ok if this was a game in which I was already somewhat familiar with the setting by whatever means.

Ron,

I'm not exactly sure how to take this : "The fact that the world's most bog-standard D&D LARP dwarf made it through the process gives me pause, at least.". But, I'm fairly confident that it was a veiled insult.  Anyway, that's the way I will digest it.

JayMc

Hi Jay,

I don't deliver insullts, and if I did, I would not veil them. Please do not bring the usual levels of emotional paranoia in our hobby to this website. No one is attacking you. I've described your character accurately and without malice or any implications concerning you. No one told you you could not make such a character, so there is  no reason to consider yourself belittled.

I mean this most seriously: do not defend yourself against being picked on, at this site. This is for your sake, because people who get into that mode will find themselves in constant states of rage as they imagine being picked on all the time, in "veiled" form, of course.

If you have further concerns about this, you may either address them publicly in a thread at the Site Discussion forum, or privately in a private message to me. This thread is devoted to Lance's project and that's all.

Best, Ron

cool.
jmc

Hey Lance,

I've been lurking avidly, having missed the initial boat.

What, exactly, are the procedures for distinguishing between Rising and Falling Actions?  When do you make the call on whether or not you're adding to or subtracting from the Endcount?

I'm asking because I can see the potential goals (say, "Marry princess Trondheim")  to drive the Endcount in either direction.  It may be fun to not make the call on how it affects the Endcount until the goal is resolved.

Cheers,
Darcy

Darcy,

Zen.

Everybody else (and Darcy),

More in depth responses later. I've had a stupidly long and busy day, and I want to do your comments and observations justice with my reply.

Ron,

As I've said before, my concerns with this exercise haven't been to make characters that fit my setting. I haven't talked about my setting any more than was absolutely necessary (and more than I'd have preferred) on purpose. Tel's dwarf would have had to have been tweaked somewhat to fit into the setting of Mage Blade (though not so much as to be unrecognizable). I'm actually quite glad that someone decided to go vanilla fantasy in this exercise. One of the things I'm doing is looking at the variety of characters made in this exercise, and comparing them to the setting. I want to see how much deviation is necessary. Mostly, the setting can handle all the concepts made here. Some of the very early ones kicked about in the S-G thread (Ben Lehman wanted to make an immortal searching for the means to his own death) would be less fitting, and likely not possible given the character creation rules as they exist.

The setting is somewhat vanilla, because overall, I like vanilla fantasy. It's like Ralph said about elves and dwarves in another recent thread:

QuoteThe reason I like the core races is precisely because there IS so much baggage around them, much of it contradictory. To me this makes them seem much more complex and thus "real" then starting from scratch with nothing but a one page write up.

Take this thought and extrapolate it beyond races into more general fantasy tropes, and you have my thoughts on the matter. The races and things should feel familiar, but be just a little different. Enough difference to intrigue you, but not so much that you find yourself wondering why I bothered with the concepts in the first place.

QuoteSecond, one of the most important features of character creation is learning what can change about what I'm putting on the sheet. ... Again, the solution is very easy, merely by explaining reward mechanics and pointing out their start-up features on the beginning sheet.

I had to read this a couple times to get what you're aiming at, somewhat muddied by the part I omitted. What I believe you're saying is that I need to lay the groundwork for character creation by making sure the players know that their ability to control the story is primary, and that advancing the story is rewarded by equal parts character advancement and further ability to control the story. If I'm correct, then this is something I'm trying to address in the Introduction and Campaign Creation chapters, which precede the Character Generation Chapter. If  you're interested in looking over the current Intro outside the context of this thread, let me know and I'll e-mail it to you.

QuoteThird, I think that the term "endgame" is vague, and open to all manner of hasty interpretations especially by gamers, especially when considering settings of this sort. I rather liked the one we settled on, because the only thing that is truly fixed is that there is an orcish empire whose rule is open to question. I presume that our characters will end up having a shot at doing it, and that we as players commit at least to the possibility that they (our characters) might try. That's all. It doesn't dictate that the empire will end up being ruled at all, nor that said ruler would be one of us, nor anything else. Most especially, it doesn't mean that every one of our characters' situations and every one of the prepped events of play are directed solely at that aim.

Endgame, as a phase of play, is a discrete thing. Once you enter Endgame, the whole point of play is to determine if the exact statement of the Endgame Goal happens, or not. Once it's been determined that it has happened, or that it is not going to, you get to play a little bit of denouement, and the campaign is finished. You may take the same characters into a followup campaign if that's your bag, and continue on in such vein as long as you're interested in playing those characters and their stories, or you may move on to some other game, system, characters or campaign.

I want to address your last line especially: Everything that happens in play should comment on and contribute to Endgame. Everything. This is different than saying that everything must be directly aimed at Endgame. One of the primary instigators for creating Falling Actions is something about Final Fantasy VI (originally released as FFIII in the U.S.) that I really enjoyed; Complete digressions from the main story. You could go discover that the character Locke is in love with a girl who has been in a coma since they were kids together, and finally resolve that deeply buried issue for him. You can go back to Doma Castle, and let Cyan fight off the ghosts that haunt him (literally) about how he failed to protect king and family. Neither of these side plots are required for the main story. You can play through it without ever doing them. But it gives the characters dimension, and helps you to empathize with them, understand them. It informs the ending, because you know better who your characters are, and what they're fighting for.

Gareth,

Thanks for your observation. I'm glad that there is some input as to why someone didn't participate.

QuoteI don't think that knowing the destination would prevent me enjoying the journey, but I also have to say that I wouldn't actually bet money we'd get there.  I would also ask the following question: how long do you expect it to take?  I would be interested to see how you intend to manage the at-the-table play toward such an end.

Interesting comment. Why don't you think the group would make it to Endgame? To answer your own questions, how long it takes to get to Endgame is a variable matter, based partly on the value set for Endcount (as I said upthread, I set 50 * the number of players, so 200 for this campaign; I expect this would make for a semi-short game) and moreso on the group's collective drive to 'finish' the campaign. The players will set Rising and Falling Actions, making specific statements about what they want to happen in the fiction, and how quickly they want to advance. A 4 player game with an Endcount of 200 could take longer than a game with an Endcount of 500, if the players pursue more digressions. The GM's input into this process is to pick and choose which goals to highlight at any given time, something he should do with the players and the fiction in mind.

Darcy,

To expand upon my further, cryptic remark... You asked how you distinguish between Rising and Falling Actions. There isn't a hard and fast answer to this. The most influential factor is going to be the choice that the player makes when he purchases the Goal. This is open to comment by the GM and the other players. If, during play, Tel were to set a Goal for Ahldam as "Be acknowledged as a Master Smith" and declare it as a Rising Action, it might come under some criticism. At this point, he can justify why he feels it qualifies as a Rising Action, or someone else can make a case for him. If we've all been playing a while, and we trust Tel as a player, we might simply raise our collective brows and say "Interesting." If it comes down to the group being unable to come to a consensus agreement, then the GM is best advised to accept the player's declaration, then frame the conflicts leading up to the Goal in such a way that it IS a Rising Action.

QuoteIt may be fun to not make the call on how it affects the Endcount until the goal is resolved.

There are some mechanical differences between the Goals beyond just how the increment/deincrement Endcount, so this becomes problematic. I can see that there might be times that something is set as a Falling Action, and once it plays out, it's obvious that it's pushed toward Endgame, or vice versa. I'll make sure to address this possibility in the text, and give guidance on how you might retroactively turn one type into another, if that's what you feel needs to happen. Mostly though, I think it's best just to leave things the way they are. A thing may be fictionally a Rising Action, but it doesn't necessarily HAVE to make the end more imminent, or vice versa. This should be limited however, as the numbers should mostly reflect the fiction, even if the occasional exception is permitted.

You see why I waited? If I'd have tried to post that last night, it'd have been twice as long, and half as sensible.

I might have made my goal more Micro-cosmic. I could have Aldham's goal be to collect enough Mithril to decorate his great axe handle inscription of his family crest. The I might be able to call it a Rising Action? Or am I completely 'off the page'?