There a certain style of play that's been receiving less and less attention these days, solo play.
There are plenty of doomsayers out there who believe computer games are killing RPGs. We know better, but solo games seem to be the only real casualty.
However, I still think there is some life left in the concept. In no way has the format been completely mined out.
True it isn't as satisfying as a full session, but solo games aren't ment to be a substitue for a full session.
So, lets see if there's any interest here on the Forge, maybe start a discussion and brainstorm.
Pblock:
While I may have some reservations as to the overall Tri-Stat System, check-out "Ghost Dog" by Guardians of Order. The game actually states that it is *very* compatible with a solo run. I very much agree with their statement.
Anyway, just a note.
Dav
(Are we talking about solo adventures, or like GM and one player?)
I can honestly say that solo adventures kept me going when I started D&D. I so loved it - so I would play those solo adventures over and over in the first Red book n stuff. It was pretty cool stuff.. and I think it is a shame that companies have left that idea. Certainly, solo games can leave a lot to be desired, but if one of the problems of our industry is finding people to game with, then solo games can fill that little niche.
But then again, I don't know... Here is what is good about solo play:
->You can do it by yourself, whenever...
->Like reading a book, you can put it down or pick it back up whenever ya want to.
->Easiest way to teach rules - can introduce you to rules at a slow pace and let you use them after you learn them
->Great for beginners, especially late grade school ages (4th, 5th, 6th graders)
->Great way to combine terrible fiction and a rpg
Heh, I remember that most solo adventures, while playable, were never the marvel of fiction or anything. I don't think they have to be, to be entertaining.
But the idea hasn't been mined really... What else could we do with it?
I also remember a weird game that was part solo adventure - It was two books = one person was a druid, the other was a wizard... and they both played solo, possibly against each other, but could interact. It was weird.
Thanks,
Nathan
In my local gaming store, about 2 weeks ago, a guy was looking at a few 3E D&D Modules to send to a friend of his over in Korea - poor guy was bored to tears and asked for SOMETHING gaming related to be sent over to him, if only to read it before coming back to the States. Anyway, what the guy was really after was some solo books that he could play without anyone, since he couldn't even find one other person interested in RPGs to do a one on one game! The closest to be found were just a bunch of modules, designed for multiple players.
Ever since then, I've been thinking about 'em, and I must say that I would really like to see something that fills this void in the industry. So what does everyone have in mind concerning this area? I'm MOST interested in a brainstorm session on the subject!
Daniel
three responses already. I'll take that as a sign of some interest. I'll offer some thoughts.
First of all, and this goes along with Ron's System Does Matter essay although I realised this before I read SDM, is that most of the solo games I have seen are essentially lite-RPGs. Fighting Fantasy, Lone Wolf, gad! Slews of others usually have a stripped-down version of D&D as the system.
What solo games need is a system that works best with solo play. Giving you the tools you need to play solo while not giving you anything you don't need or will get in your way.
Oddly enough, one of the better series in this respect are the AD&D solo Gamebooks AKA Super Endless Quests. Odd because of the general vibe I get about TSR's abilities as a game design house yet they put out one of the more forward-thinking solo series. Talent is where you find it.
How it worked is simple. In combat you are given a target number on 2d6. If you missed, you took the damage described and rolled again. Yes the monster automatically hit you back. If you made the roll, you were instructed to turn to a passage where you read a prose description of how the battle went.
This made comabts a bit more interesting than the typical I roll to hit, he rolls to hit, repeat format of other solos. This format may work in group play, but by yourself it can be mind-numbingly tedious.
This is the sort of thinking we need to be using, I think. Not that the AD&D books were perfect, mind you, but they went in a direction that was worth exploring more.
Obviously, such games would have a more gamist bend that group games since it is just one person against the canned adventure. To keep it interesting, it would probably have to be gamist, perhaps with some narrativist for flavoring. Simulationism I believe would be hard to duplicate in such a format, but then someone is liable to prove me wrong.
Of course, we aren't limited to gamebooks, either. GW put out a solo boardgame (I think it was a board game) called Chainsaw Warrior. So we can come up with board, card, CCG, dice games, etc.
Chances are we'll brainstorm here a bit and then go our separate ways and develop our own separate game.
Huzzah!
Dumb idea #423: roll over the page number on d%.
Hi there,
I was a big fan of the Fighting Fantasy series, which was composed of a bunch of little paperbacks and one great digest-sized, four-book series. Anyone remember these? The system was called "Sorcery!" and had a VERY interesting magic system, as well as a "clash" combat system rather than a hit/hit one. The titles were The Shamutanti Hills, Khare: Cityport of Traps, The Seven Serpents, and The Crown of Kings.
I also thought a lot of the Tunnels & Trolls solo material was worth owning. Sewer of Oblivion, Sea of Mystery, Chateau d'Yvoire ... I still pick'em up when I see'em. Oh yes, and the two Deathtest dungeon-crawls and Grailquest for The Fantasy Trip; the latter was especially good.
[Side note: there are two Steve Jacksons. One did the Fighting Fantasy stuff with a guy named Ian Livingstone; the other is, well, Steve Jackson, who did The Fantasy Trip as well as another thing or two.]
However ... and this is a big however ... I *hated* actually playing any of these, mainly because they were designed back in the day when "whoops, you're dead" was a damn likely outcome, but also because I would often find a given NPC or situation more interesting than the options permitted me to check out.
What I liked was the STRUCTURE of the adventures, and the way that (in the titles I mentioned) one's personal decisions often had ethical weight. I spent a lot of time mulling over the material and wondering how group play could yield the kind of personal story, like that found in Grailquest or Sea of Mystery, without railroading like a fiend to do it.
Best,
Ron
Well, ya did it, Ron.
You opened the Fighting Fantasy floodgates. Now I'll be thinking about those all week.
Gawd, they ruled.
Sword of the Samurai was my favorite but they all rocked so hard.
Hands up anyone who solved the uber-puzzle in "Rebel Planet"? I know I couldn't.
And Jason - everyone knows the best one was the one where you're a monster, and can't control yourself for the first few dozen entries.
However...I really think these books are pretty much dead. Text adventures do everything they do and more.
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Ron Edwards wrote:
[Side note: there are two Steve Jacksons. One did the Fighting Fantasy stuff with a guy named Ian Livingstone; the other is, well, Steve Jackson, who did The Fantasy Trip as well as another thing or two.]
[Side-side note: Steve Jackson UK (as I often see him refered to as) is behind the company that brought us Black & White (Lion's ...something. I forget.
Ian Livingstone was CEO or president of Eidos Entertainment, hence why they put out Ian Livingstone's Deathtrap Dungeon computer/Playstation game based to some extent, I assume, on the FF book of the same name.]
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Ron also wrote
However ... and this is a big however ... I *hated* actually playing any of these, mainly because they were designed back in the day when "whoops, you're dead" was a damn likely outcome, but also because I would often find a given NPC or situation more interesting than the options permitted me to check out.
That's understandable since it's pretty true. Hence why I brought the subject up, to try and do something with the format.
I have most of the games you've mentioned. Collecting solo games are sorta a hobby of mine. Also, apparently Fighting Fantasy was eventually expanded to a full RPG. Go fig.
I'm also a member of a Tunnels & Trolls club over on Yahoo. I have most of the solos but rarely try to play since the "whoops you're dead" thing tends to happen in the first paragraph.
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Mytholder wrote:
However...I really think these books are pretty much dead. Text adventures do everything they do and more.
With one major difference. You need a computer to run text adventures. If the solo is available on-line only you may need a computer to get it, but you won't need a computer to run it.
This is what I'm after, anyway. Something that can give you a role-playing "fix," as it were, without requiring a computer or a group.
Whatever aspect of role-playing captured by the indivdual game may vary. It'd be interesting to see how some of use stretch this concept.
Although I played Fighting Fantasy in the mid-80s, my favourite books were the Lone Wolf Series (Gary Chalk, Joe Dever) and I ran through the series in 1989-90 when I'd already done alot of roleplaying. They were great because 1) they were a series and talents and even objects you picked up could used in later books, 2) You increased in ability, 3) I loved to explore, and Magnamund was an explorers world - not just some re-hashed D&D fantasy. It really had a feeling of it's own, and it felt a little 16thC to me.
Now if someone would get their arse in gear and publish a Magnamund RPG I'd buy it!
Ahhh... Someone was actually seriously considering doing Magnamund for D20 on the Homebrew forum there, but I think that idea eventually died down... But to do a freeware Magnamund RPG, it would be extremely simple...
Ingredients:
All the Lone Wolf Books (including the fiction)
A good system (essential)
Imagination (essential)
Joe Dever's Blessing (not essential, but generally a *good* thing...)
Piece of urine, so to speak!
For those interested in Lone Wolf, the series is being converted to html at this site.
http://www.lw-oasis.org/aon/
AFAIK it's completely legal, they say they have Dever's permission and the proper rights/permission to do this.
Long Live Lone Lolf...I mean Wolf.
bloody illiteration
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On 2001-07-10 15:48, Jared A. Sorensen wrote:
Dumb idea #423: roll over the page number on d%.
But if the level of difficulty got higher as the book progressed..........
Nahhhh.
JVW
I was just wondering if a way of doing solo play that gets around the 'you're dead' response, is one that basically allows you to choose, as and however you like, where it is you go in terms of the story. It will never tell you you've died, or killed the opponant or whatever, all the game does is tell you the (narrativist) ways your character grows. What you do with such gifts is up to you.
I have a feeling this makes no sense... : /
*g*
Bye!
Paul.
- I'm new here! :smile: -
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On 2001-07-11 22:14, Jamie Thomas Durbin wrote:
Ahhh... Someone was actually seriously considering doing Magnamund for D20 on the Homebrew forum there, but I think that idea eventually died down... But to do a freeware Magnamund RPG, it would be extremely simple...
Ages ago there was talk of a stand alone Lone Wolf RPG. It was in an interview Joe Dever did for Valkyrie or Roleplayer Independent (I forget which). Never saw the light fo day though. Shame.
Matt
Paul,
I believe so. There called Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books or other such variable plot novels which don't have a dice mechanic. You just choose what happens.
Or you make decision and then those decision move the story along.
Personally, I'm trying to think of a solo game without thinking in terms of solo books. That format has been pretty well mined out and where it hasn't been mined out it is fairly constrained because of the format.
Side Note: I come to the forum after being up til 2 and this topic is burning with one post(!) Is that how the forum is supposed to work? I thought it had to be 15 new posts to get the flaming folder.
::drooling:: Solo adventures? Hell I do that all the time on the ride in. I look around and imagine which other drivers I'm firing my dual .50 cal trunk mounted machine guns at. :razz:
Seriously though.. my two cents on this subject are..
How about exploring a writing option?
I know this is sort of (only slightly) away from the initial subject.. but what about a game where -
You read passages of prose, then write up character interactions. I'm not sure how this could be done (or I'd already be working on it) but it sounds interesting. Perhaps somehow the mechanics could be worked out... then people could [play] the [game] and post thier works online somewhere. (would be great for comedic adventures).
I dunno.. just though it would be intersting.
T
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On 2001-07-10 16:16, Ron Edwards wrote:
I was a big fan of the Fighting Fantasy series, which was composed of a bunch of little paperbacks and one great digest-sized, four-book series. Anyone remember these? The system was called "Sorcery!" and had a VERY interesting magic system, as well as a "clash" combat system rather than a hit/hit one. The titles were The Shamutanti Hills, Khare: Cityport of Traps, The Seven Serpents, and The Crown of Kings.
I love the
Scorcery! series. It still stands, in my opinion, as one of the best "dark fantasy" solo game series ever. The flavor and the art was just right. I'll always remember the dark elf trading post in the third book, and the inn trap in the second book.
For those of you not familiar with it, the magic system Ron is referring to is what I would call a "true memorization" system. Basically, you were allowed to look at the list of spells as much as you liked before you started any given book in the series. Each spell had a three-letter designation, like FOF for the forcefield spell or YAP for the spell that let you talk to animals --- but once you were playing you weren't supposed to look at the spell list. When given a chance to cast a spell, you were give a list of potential three-letter codes -- some of which weren't actually spells. If you picked a fake code, you lost Stamina (hit points) and nothing happened. Even if you picked a correct code you had to spend Stamina to cast the spell and many spells required exotic components, like a green-haired wig.
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However ... and this is a big however ... I *hated* actually playing any of these, mainly because they were designed back in the day when "whoops, you're dead" was a damn likely outcome, but also because I would often find a given NPC or situation more interesting than the options permitted me to check out.
At the time, I didn't mind, but you're right, they're pretty brutal that way. Certainly I'd love to see what could be done with the gamebook genre by the current indie RPG crowd, with perhaps a more Narrativist bent in with all the Gamism. Video games like Torment have shown that you can actually have pretty interesting conversations using a "pick what you say from this list" method which lends itself well to gamebooks.
Tho in a homage to the
Sorcery! series I think it should be a genre convention that giving gold to a beggar always gets you vital game-useful information, and that they're always amazed to get a WHOLE GOLD PIECE -- even tho there isn't any other currency available for use by the character. ;-)
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What I liked was the STRUCTURE of the adventures, and the way that (in the titles I mentioned) one's personal decisions often had ethical weight. I spent a lot of time mulling over the material and wondering how group play could yield the kind of personal story, like that found in Grailquest or Sea of Mystery, without railroading like a fiend to do it.
Amen. Isn't Seth Ben-Ezra sort of working on this idea? ;-)
[ This Message was edited by: xiombarg on 2001-09-04 17:40 ]
Wow. Solo games. I had a lot of fun with "Choose Your Own Adventure" type games when I was a kid, and they're what kept me going when I first got D&D. I even dabbled with the Lone Wolf series, and found it to be quite fun for what it was worth.
Initially, I found the old AD&D Adventure Gamebooks in a used bookstore--one from Dragonlance, one from Forgotten Realms. Both were surprisingly decent, as those things went. I have a 3rd, but it was lacking the bookmark (which, since I don't recall seeing it mentioned, was what had the primitive character sheet printed on it). Then I got my hands on the oversized "Dragon leaping forward" cover D&D boxed set, where I ran myself through the learning adventure until I had a handle on the rules. I also had a module called "Rage of the Rakasta" that worked well on the same lines in solo play--I just took a character and ran it through the D&D cards, then through the module. It was a fun module, too.
In any case, there is a future for this sort of things. To me, the solo module has its future on the World Wide Web--set it up as a suite of webpages to be viewed, perhaps account locked if you wish to make it a for-profit deal. Those things took up quite a bit of paper for not as much story, and didn't generally have masterpieces of storylines. Now it's no difficulty to set up webpages with conditional links--you can even include little extras, and the like. That's where I think the solo game is headed...away from the less profitable print world, and ever to the future!
-Wayne
I was thinking about solo games and the current Internet trend in indie RPGs, and the comment that computer games had killed the solo RPG as a genre, and I realized something, connecting two of my hobbies suddenly.
There's actually a highly creative, art-oriented community of fans working in this genre, and not on the Web, per se. And it might be a good idea for people on this board to check *that* community out for inspiration as to what can be done with the solo genre.
What am I talking about? Stick with me here, even if you don't like computer games. I'm talking about the Interactive Literature community. No, I'm not talking about the US freeform LARP community, though checking them out isn't a bad idea. (The ILF is now the LARPRA,
check it out.) I'm talking about an active and intense group of people who are working on Infocom-style text adventure games, "Interactive Literature".
Remember those? KICK GRUE WITH LEFT BOOT? But the fan-produced stuff has moved as far beyond that as
Sorcerer is beyond AD&D. Plus, they've learned how to put a lot of emotional impact into a short game, which is good for those of us who don't want to spend all day on puzzles -- tho those sorts of games, of course, still exist, much as D&D still exists, tho that's more the style of the modern, graphical computer "RPG". Such "short" works remind me a LOT of, say, Jared's work, actually.
Check it out. Even if you think you hate text adventures you won't be disappointed.
SPAG tells you what you need to get started -- one needs an interpreter for the wierd Interactive Fiction languages to run a game. The best place to find the creme of the crop is to check out the annual
Interactive Fiction Competition. Especially good are the games from Adam Cadre, which can be found
here. "Varicella" has wonderful NPCs and a background that begs for stealing; nearly every "puzzle" has more to do with personal interaction and realpolitik than anything else. And his "Photopia" has that emotional punch I was talking about.
And the advantage of solo RPGs is you don't have to learn an odd computer language in order to create it, tho the genre has its own limitations. But I point to Interactive Literature as an example of the untapped potential here.
[ This Message was edited by: xiombarg on 2001-09-04 22:46 ]
I know Ron will remember this.
For The Fantasy Trip, SJ put out several adventures that were written in the "chose your own adventure" style. You'd make a selection and then arrive at a room or scene in which there would often be a combat or a trap or something. For combats, you could just play them out solo as the tactics for the enemies were fairly straightforward.
I think the first, and for me the most memorable, as it was my introduction to dungeon crawls, was called Death Test (followed subsequently by Death Test II). The simplistic plot was that a king had stocked a series of rooms with monsters as a test of skill, and the characters would simply go from room to room and try to hack their way to the end. Slain monsters often guarded treasure, which was the reward for taking the test. Very simple, but played well solo, nonetheless.
These were followed by a few others, the Silver Dragon, and Golden Unicorn, IIRC (which had clues in them which supposedly could lead you to RL silver and gold models hidden somewhere in the US or something). These had a bit more plot, but still it was mostly just a vehicle to get you from one combat to another for the most part. I remember one scene where you had a contest of archery with an elf, the result of which determined where the character went next, for example.
These certainly had quite a bit of solo playability in that they wer an engine to get you from one battle to the next, which is mostly what the game was about anyhow. Just thought it might be interesting to mention.
Mike