The Forge Archives

Over in Actual Play about Puppies (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3443&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15), Paul Czege said:

QuoteRomantic partners who game, and who are fiercely supportive of your design efforts...despite discomfort from circumstance or subject matter. Don't get no better than that.

As such a partner, I have a few things to say.

Let me preface this by saying I'd been playing D&D and AD&D since I was seven, so I was not totally unfamiliar with the concept, lingo, and paraphanalia. However, being a Woman Who Games puts me in a small community. I wish there were more WWG, or women willing to admit to gaming in the past, at least. I also wish gaming folks of all genders to be able to share the fun with their partners as desired.

When I met Vincent, he was playing Cyberpunk and Shadowrun and Talislanta; I'd never heard of any of them, but was happy to try. (Hey, we chicks are just as happy to have partners who are into our hobbies as vice versa) We had some*great* games in college, and then Vincent's homegrown games started cropping up. I was fine with that, cool. But when it came to actual play, the early ones mostly tanked. Why? Well, y'all know he's a good writer, and the ideas were sound, even in reflection years later. Here's the secret: I was put off by the mechanics or by the character sheet.

So, my dear game-designing partner started tweeking with things, asking what was blocking me, figuring out what I'd liked about games we'd played, what stats etc. I actually used in actual play. This was way cool. Eventually, we figured it out, and now it's a pretty sure bet I'll play a game he writes, eventually. I think I've been a decent test of when mechanics are over-worked. For example, I *love* the Otherkind mechanic. Ask Vincent about the Jastenave mechanic, too. Oh, and the sword fight mechanic from Powderkeg.

My advice to game designers with:

  Partners who have ever gamed:

     Ask them about their favorite games and what made them like it. Check out what parts of the game they got stuck in (filling out forms, task resolution, tracking GP/ExP etc), and figure out what was easy. What genre movies, books, etc do they like, even occasionally. Start from there.  

   Partners who have never gamed:

       Start with talking about books, movies, and most importantly, *STORYTELLING*. Lots of folks have played make-belive, or played various storytelling games, even if it was only years ago in scout camp. Every person who was ever a kid has done Live Action Role Playing, they just called it 'playing house' or 'cops and robbers' or 'star wars'. This is all that for grown-ups.

We have friends where the man is into really number-crunchy, slay-the-beast-take-the-treasure stuff (RoleMaster), and the woman is totally put off.  We've been talking about our various games, and she's intrigued enough to want to sit in and watch a session. Different strokes for different folks. That's why there're so many different games. Trust me, there's one out there, maybe waiting to be designed, that will catch your partner's interest.

~Meguey

My wife and I discovered games together; we'd read a Psychology Today article back in 1980 (yeah, we're old) and as avid game players (card games, board games, war games, parlor games, miniature golf, bowling, and I've forgotten what else) we had to find it. We'd tried the LotR game from SPI, which was disappointing precisely in the ways that D&D promised to be good. I ran games (D&D) in which she played; she ran games (Star Frontiers, Metamorphosis Alpha) in which I played, and together we played in games (Gamma World, a smattering of Traveler) run by one of our gaming friends.

But she has never played Multiverser.

Part of it is that life got busy, and she found less time to play. I still play mostly with the kids, but she likes to go out with the kids when she's home, or play games with less commitment like board games and card games. (She almost got into a game of Little Fears, but then reading the rules she decided she did not want the kids playing it.)

But part of it is that while the game was in the creation stages, she had a massive blow-up with my collaborator, and wants nothing to do with anything connected to him. It isn't the game she dislikes, but the memories of that time.

It's a bit disappointing that she doesn't play; but then, life has been busy in recent years and I keep having to turn down eager players because I don't have the time to have people over to play. Besides, while we enjoyed role playing, we've got a lot of other common interests, and with me doing this as "work" it's good to get a break from it when I'm with her.

I'm interested in the experiences of others.

--M. J. Young

I met my wife through gaming.

That's right, I came up to the University of Minnesota (finally escaping the stickiest of the sticks).  I sought out the on-campus gaming community; I found the oldest in the world (as the story goes Gygax got started - somehow - here).

Now don't get me wrong, I've got Asperger's Syndrome (//www.aspergers.com), which means whatever the social situation, I'm the wall flower.  I met her the first week I was up here (she was flowering the walls too).  Soon after I 'joined up,' I rather took the group by storm (a talented gamer, I guess).

To make a long story short, we had everything gaming in common.  (We also have the same metaphysical beliefs and political stance.)  Together, we decided to create our own role-playing game (so that by retirement, we'd at least have a great toy); her system, and my text on 'good gamemastering.'  (She has a charming little story about playing Dungeons & Dragons out of books hidden in Tunnels & Trolls books, because her best friend's father believed that Dungeons & Dragons was 'only for boys.')

The rest, as they say, it history.  Two kids later (did I mention that Asperger's Syndrome (//www.aspergers.com) passes down the male line especially when both parents have it?), we have what you've seen so far.

Marry your design partner, your best friend, your soul-mate, favorite gamemaster, or all four.  The best thing I ever did.

Fang Langford

I can't say I've ever had the experience of a romatic partner who was a gamer......hmm.....maybe because of the high "geek factor" involved?  See, I am usually too scared to introduce partners into the roleplaying world, for fear that they are going to think that I am a geek.  The few times that I did bring a girlfriend to the table, they usually left in a combination of frustration and disgust, with a quick "Call ya tomorrow," on the way out the door.  Maybe I'm just a crappy teacher?  Added to the fact that my main gaming group for my entire high school career was nearly entirely male, and when a female player did become involved I suppose the fact that all the other players were guys probably drove them away.  It might've not been so bad, if there were more female gamers out there, so that a newer female gamer might be a little less intimidated to come to the table.  I truely envy those of you who are able to blend the two worlds effectively.

I too met my wife in the college Gaming-type club! Its great! I highly recommend it!
(although we would never have believed it if anyone back then would have said "10 years from now you two will be married")

We watch the generally the same types of TV shows, read the same types of books, and have started more gaming together (after both being away from gaming for quite a while).

Bob McNamee

I too met my wife Sally through gaming, though in this case it was an online free-form kind of thing.  However, I'm not really sure I'd describe her as a "gamer."  She enjoys playing, but doesn't seem to fully grasp the concept of a system.  She'll remember the steps it takes to do something, but only as a series of steps.  Likewise with other concepts.  If a long sword did 3d6 points of damage, a knife did 1d6 and you asked her what a short sword did, it would stump her (but she'd agree readily if you suggested 2d6).

As soon as she can articulate what exactly it is that she likes about playing, I'll write a system for her.

However, she's still been an invaluable assistance in getting Pax Draconis together when it comes to art and handling many of the behind-the-scenes details.

I didn't meet my wife through gaming -- that's an entirely different story -- but after we had started writing to one another, the subject came up...I have no clue how, I don't remember in the slightest.  It simply arose and was discussed like anything else a courting couple discusses.

She wasn't what you'd call a "geek girl," either: she was into parties, cruising, heavy metal and not into Star Trek, computers or art.  She had played MERP a couple of times before I met her, and after we had been going out for a while, decided she really wanted to try to run a game.  I wanted to get her more involved in my hobby and since she was willing, hey, I wasn't going to complain.

However, she decided MERP was NOT the way to go (and I agreed, after staring at the rules for a while whilst attempting to make a character).  Instead, she ended up running a session of D&D for my cousin and I -- and there's another story there, first time playing D&D and first time time GMing, and we both agreed it was unequivocably the best game we'd ever played in.

Long-story-short (too late): She and I have been gaming together ever since.

Unfortunately, she hasn't had as much time to play lately, but she hasn't had much time to do anything lately.  We still play together in a D&D game on Saturday nights, but that's about it for gaming due the demands of nursing school.

She has, however, recently been talking about getting a couple of her friends together for a weekly or (more likely) monthly game at our place (yes, female friends).

Which brings up an interesting tangent in this thread: most of the gamers I play regularly with are female.  Both the groups I have been a long-term member of are female dominated (and the two groups share only me as a member).

In the Saturday night game I spoke of that my wife attends with me, out of seven other players, I was the only male in the group besides the DM for over two years.  Recently, I have regained that distinction in the group.

The group I run a campaign for (and also play in campaigns run by a couple of them) is comprised of four players.  In the past, it usually had more women than men, though that statistic evened out somewhat recently as my wife had to cut her gaming down for reasons already mentioned, and I lost a few other players (thankfully) at the end of the last campaign.

Another interesting note: at the computer lab I administer, there are a couple of high school girls who come in every day to use the facility.  I learned in the first few weeks that they role-play as well, as they just out and discuss it as though it is no big deal, even though one of the girls is a fashion model and quite obviously the "popular preppy-girl."

Getting even more tangential: my group in high-school was comprised of...well, everyone.  Jocks, potheads, skaters, nerds, nice-guys and artists (and we did, indeed, talk to each other between games...as often about gaming as anything else); the most popular folks in my high school gamed (you know, the kids everyone knows and likes).

Though my high-school group only had one girl, my friends the next town over all played RPGs, and the majority of them were female.

RPGs have a geek stigma?  Girls don't like or get gaming?
I wonder how close to reality our conceptions actually are, and thus why finding a mate who games is considered so difficult as to be a special occurence?

I introduced my wife to gaming before we were married.  That was in 1979 and, except for a few years when the kids were little, we've been gaming regularly ever since.  Other couples play golf or bridge or whatever together, so there's no reason why couple who game together should be so unusual.  My only complaint about our arrangement is that my wife likes gaming so much that she's a poor critic of my games.  She likes everything I run.  (I'm going to see if I can force a change in that attitude by running Kill Puppies for Satan.)

I'm another one who married a gamer. My wife and I met at one of the few gaming cons down here in South Florida almost 10 years ago. It was at a Champions game to boot.

Hello,

Hearts & flowers aside, I would like people to consider that Forge threads are not encounter groups. What's the issue at stake in this one?

Meguey's initial post is tremendously high-potential - I see many possibilities for discussions arising from it. If you would, folks, try to work from there and not simply pound the keys with "Well, for me" kinds of input.

Here's my thought based on the big issue: why should or should not one attempt to interest one's romantic partner in role-playing?

I'm not talking about fellow role-players findin' one another; that's a no-brainer, insofar as people involved in the same hobbies tend to sleep together - the basis for all singles' vactions and activities and whatnot. No, I'm talking about active role-playin' folks who do have Sig.Others.

One more qualifier: individual instances are not evidence for anything. Anecdotes about what happened to you or to your friend Ned or Sally or whoever aren't going to address my question. I'm interested in broader perspectives on this one.

Meguey, any thoughts on that?

Best,
Ron

Well, for game designers and people finding the Forge recently, having a spouse who only is a "new gamer" or "non-rabid gamer" is a big help.

Starting out as a D&D gm back in the seventies, I found it pretty hard to stepback and really evaluate that game and others because their methods are so ingrained. All the inconsistencies and complexities come right to my notice when helping to instruct my wife in my friend's D&D2ed game.  Even such things as dice... hard to remember how confusing they can be when I can pick them out by feel.  She played Traveller way back but "that used normal dice..."
She's a good cold reader for game designs, if its confusing in anyway she'll know.
[edited in: This really could apply to bouncing things off any newish gamer, so maybe its not a spouse thing]

There's the social issue too. But this can be two-edged. On the plus side, you're both gaming together. This is the same as is you were both golfing, fishing,shopping,hanging with friends, whatever. Eliminates "You spend more time XXX-ing than with me..." from the other.
A secondary personal plus, for me as a GM, is having a person to share "What's going on in the game". Someone to share secrets with etc. This isn't really a mate thing though, way back in the 70s-80s D&D day my DM friend and I agreed not to play in one anothers games so we would have someone to share all the (probably Illusionist) "what's really going on, what's going to happen next" kind of stuff.

On the minus side, some folks use their "special hobby" as a way to get away from their mate. Too much togetherness, I guess.
Another minus, and the biggest one, we're seeing in another thread.  What effect is one partner's opinions/feelings/issues conflicting with the members of the gaming group, and/or the game, going to have on the relationship, the partner's opinions, the group, and the gaming experience.
(Social contract can help, and good communication, but people aren't always rational)

Hope this is more on topic,
Bob McNamee

I am the only one who has a romantic partner who doesn't game?  She expressed interest, but didn't really like it.   I think part of it was I had not discovered the forge yet and only knew traditional games.  Also, the game I tried to get here into didn't work out as well as I'd hoped.  (It was Falkenstien, and the GM made it sound, what I would now call Narrativist, but it turned out be to hardcore Participationalism.)
My observations of my partner/ideas to introduce her to gaming(I just want to see if she just doesn't like, or did I mess up earlier tries. She admists she would like it as an activity we could do together.)
My main problem.
She's a radical femminist. Now this is not a problem in our relationship(I agree with her on this). But the problem is most games have elements that conflict with this. Also, here tolerance for books seems to be higher than for games.  She likes elizabethan books, but seems to have a low tolerance for the games. Another problem here is finding other Gamers she can put up with.

She also seems to be one of these players who wants to go off an explore their own charachter and not do anything with a unified plot or group. I've wondered that if she was allowed to do that for a while, she'd become more 'group' friendly, but....

Any ideas on addressing the first point? I think that's my main issue.

Quote from: Ron Edwards
Here's my thought based on the big issue: why should or should not one attempt to interest one's romantic partner in role-playing?

I'm going to approach this from the "should not" angle for two reasons:
a) The "should" angle has been portrayed as good here, so a dissenting view would be nice and
b) I don't think you can separate personal views from a topic like this as much as Ron wants to.

Having a romantic partner that games sounds like a great idea. You have someone that's supportive of your hobby (and maybe of your business) in your home at all times. However, a biased view of your own game can form very quickly. If you're working on your own game, most likely your spouse or partner is not going to heavily criticize it. You're most likely writing it to fit the personal game style that has evolved between you two anyway.

Now, if your partner isn't involved in role-playing, you can get an outsider's opinion on your game - an idea from a non-gamer about if the concept even makes sense, for example. It's hard to find non-gamers to discuss your game with - the opportunity of having a non-gaming partner is a treasure, in my opinion.

The other issue is one no one discusses on the Forge, no matter how much I try to bring it up. Many people play role-playing games to deal with personal issues. If you're dealing with personal issues in the context of role-playing, your partner is the last person that needs to be there. Before everyone bounces up and down and says, "But what about honesty between partners?", think about it for a second. In a lot of cases, your issues will involve your partner, issues like:
- Your happiness/lack of happiness with your sex life
- Your satisfaction/dissatisfaction with care for your emotional needs in the relationship
- Your attraction to a person outside the relationship, and your comfort/discomfort with that

Like I said earlier, I don't think you can separate personal views from the issue as much as Ron would like. My personal view is that issues like this are best dealt with in a situation without your partner present.

Hi Clinton,

OK, I buy that - that's a sound argument regarding the role of "personal viewpoint" in this sort of discussion. I think we agree though, that the goal is to arrive at more general or applicable ideas rather than only to expound or describe "well, to me ..." type positions.

So let's take a look at not sharing role-playing with one's partner, and put aside for the moment the partner's role in that decision. One reason might be just what you describe: the role-playing represents a fair amount of emotional catharsis that's better conducted in the partner's absence.

Another reason is to consider that not all couples like doing every damn thing or activity together. The "joined at the hip" lifestyle is fine, and it's pretty common especially among people in their early 20s. But it's not the only way to conduct a relationship, and the world is full of folks for whom Joe can go bowling with his buddies, or Carol can go to her kickboxing workout classes, without the other one either (a) participating or (b) constantly trying to make the partner stop.

It's conceivable that one doesn't include or encourage one's partner to be involved in role-playing on that basis alone - no need for the "emotional issues" angle to be involved.

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Ron Edwards
Another reason is to consider that not all couples like doing every damn thing or activity together. The "joined at the hip" lifestyle is fine, and it's pretty common especially among people in their early 20s. But it's not the only way to conduct a relationship, and the world is full of folks for whom Joe can go bowling with his buddies, or Carol can go to her kickboxing workout classes, without the other one either (a) participating or (b) constantly trying to make the partner stop.

It's conceivable that one doesn't include or encourage one's partner to be involved in role-playing on that basis alone - no need for the "emotional issues" angle to be involved.

I wholeheartedly agree. I never referenced that because for people in this situation, it's not even a question of "is my partner role-playing with me a good idea?" It's a statement: "role-playing is my thing."

I've personally found it to be a great equalizer in relationships where one partner wants more "apart time" than the other. By making your "apart time" into a productive activity, the reticent partner often becomes more open to the concept.

Quote from: Ron EdwardsHere's my thought based on the big issue: why should or should not one attempt to interest one's romantic partner in role-playing?

I'm guessing this is such a non-issue to me that I skipped right over it. Those still in the dating and courting stages of relationships might find such a discussion useful, but for me, personally, the same issue has been discussed so thoroughly elsewhere in regards to any imaginable activity that bringing it up specifically for the context of RPGs seems a bit absurd.

That is, one might as well ask, "Why should or should not one attempt to interest one's romantic partner in sail-boating?" for all the useful insight it would provide into the subject of sail-boating specifically.
This is a much broader issue than any specific hobby or passtime.

Now Clinton did have some very interesting thoughts on the matter from the RPG-specific perspective, but I have to wonder how much an issue self-exploration actually is with most gamers -- and by this I mean conscious self-exploration -- and more-to-the-point, if it is even a valid argument for "why not"?

All the examples of "why not" Clinton cites are clear indicators to me that something on the relationship's fundamental level is wrong. Such issues go way beyond whether you and your partner should be gaming together or not.

Personally, if anyone confided in me that they were using RPGs to explore those sorts of issues in their current relationship, or if I caught myself using it for such, I would be on the phone or suggesting the other individual get on the phone to a good relationship counselor, setting up a meeting, because there are much larger issues at stake with the relationship itself.

QuoteOne more qualifier: individual instances are not evidence for anything. Anecdotes about what happened to you or to your friend Ned or Sally or whoever aren't going to address my question. I'm interested in broader perspectives on this one.

Statistics are made from individual instances.  I know I'd be interested in any source of statistics on this particular issue. Have any, Ron?

That said, I'm responding to this not in regards to Ron's question, but in response to the issue that arose from this which interests me most (selfish bastard that I am): perception and fact, in regards to the gender split and social stigma (or lack thereof) of gaming.

As queried previously, is it really that difficult to find a mate that games, such that having such is really worth any sort of awe over, or discussion of?  Or is the situation more along the lines of, "My partner plays chess with me!" (Which, I think, we can all see as "unh, yeah, and?")

What are the facts in this situation, and what are the preconceptions?  Do the latter have any actual relationship to the former?

I'm not sure I have a helluva a lot to add ot the discussion, except to say that I, for one, have used roleplaying to explore occasionally troubling relation-ship oriented issues.

Fact: Last October I was married.

In November Matt started up a Mage game.  In that game, my character, Leslie Welles, was a newlywed who was convinced that his wife was actually an alien come to Earth to create hybrid progeny.  Even her goldfish was in on the conspiracy.

Anyone who knows me knows that I have some strange hangups regarding procreation.  Namely, I'm not planning on doing it (and fortunately, neither does my wife).  And being recently married is a big enough change to warrant a little bit thought on anyone's part.

Did I learn anything from this?  Maybe a little.  Did it somehow make my relationship better or worse or anything?  No.  But it was a way to express my feelings and - I don't want to say "work through them" - but, you know, kinda' get them out there and in the open.  It was pretty scary actually, exposing yourself like that in front of a group of people who knew exactly where it was all coming from.

And I probably couldn't have done it if my wife had been there.  The story had a happy ending and all, but there were some pretty scary moments.  Bold, intense, and scary moments.

So that's that.

- Scott

Well, as *kinda* the subject of the post that started this entire thread (if I knew how to link to it I would, but I don't know how too, sorry), I would like to contribute.  After Paul and I had been dating a while, he told me about gaming and how he had gotten back into it recently. He was going to run a game for three friends (Tom who is in our present game group and two others) of Everway, I think. When we would see each other, he would give me weekly updates on what had happened, and it was great!  He would even tell me what he was planning and ask what I think about certain situations. We even made a bet if Tom's character would succumb to the wiles of a nubile sword-stress. I said "Of course he will!", while he KNEW that Tom would be stoic and not give in. I won, we'll leave it at that.

Since I had no gaming experience (my older brother played D&D with his friends but a girl could never join!) I didn't have a mind set on how things should be done. However, there were circumstances that the guys could probably tell you about where they all laughed over what I did because it might have been too much like what a D&D player might do. But, since I didn't have the baggage of old games, I like to think that it was easy for me to get into the games we were playing because that was all that I knew. Something else came up once in our conversations, that fact that not once did I present a character to be a romantic link to his, I honestly never considered it. In my first multi-session game, Sorcerer, my character was a woman in her 50's while Paul's was a handsome 30 year old that was sleeping with his clients wife and french kissing his daughter to feed his demon. I trade off being a male or female character and it's totally fun (like Silas).

So, since we have been gaming, one topic of our regular converstation has been gaming. He would ask me about characters and his favorite question is "What is the most interesting thing about (character's name)" After playing that first test of MLwM, we literally spent hours talking about way it turned out so good and some issues I had with the less/more than human characteristics.  I like to think that helped him at least a little.

Paul has many ways to express himself creatively, and I like to think that my playing in the game group dosen't hinder that expression in games.  I would also be totally ok if he needed to join another group to do just that. I like to think that my inclusion in the group is a benefit, for me and the guys.

Quote from: Clinton R. Nixon

Quote from: Ron EdwardsAnother reason is to consider that not all couples like doing every damn thing or activity together. The "joined at the hip" lifestyle is fine, and it's pretty common especially among people in their early 20s. But it's not the only way to conduct a relationship, and the world is full of folks for whom Joe can go bowling with his buddies, or Carol can go to her kickboxing workout classes, without the other one either (a) participating or (b) constantly trying to make the partner stop.

It's conceivable that one doesn't include or encourage one's partner to be involved in role-playing on that basis alone - no need for the "emotional issues" angle to be involved.

I wholeheartedly agree. I never referenced that because for people in this situation, it's not even a question of "is my partner role-playing with me a good idea?" It's a statement: "role-playing is my thing."

I've personally found it to be a great equalizer in relationships where one partner wants more "apart time" than the other. By making your "apart time" into a productive activity, the reticent partner often becomes more open to the concept.

Now we're skating right out onto thin non-game ice here.  Like I'm always telling my egalitarian spouse, there are no relationships of total equality, none.  Some have healthy shifts between who 'has the most' in any given situation, but equality is not an option.  Now if you recognize there will be shifting interests (even with trends and all), you can see that partners will never have exactly the same interest in gaming for any length of time.  "Apart time" is likewise; the equal need for it never lasts long but often gets overlooked.

Still, how does what amounts to purely a partner-relationship issue have to do specifically with gaming?  At the above point, you could pretty much take out the word gaming and put in any other relationship issue.  Sure, it's just as important to not expect your partner to share the intensity of your interest in gaming, but that still has little to do with gaming, itself.

I'm interested if this has anything to do with gaming specifically.  One issue that has taken 'gaming with the partner' out of this realm for us has to do with Ron's "Drawing the Veil" between consenting adults.  Provided a healthy relationship between the partners and with their attitudes towards gaming, they can go pretty far without "Drawing the Veil."  Other than that, I haven't seen anything particularly special about 'partner gaming' that doesn't apply to everything else between the partners.

Fang Langford

p. s. Unless you want to just turn this into a thread about relationships (dumping the "...and gaming" part).

p. p. s. And for the record, we're going on 12 years "joined at the hip."  Our friends think it's sick, but we have plenty of adequate 'release valves,' so it works for us.  (I think they just hate the 'doe eyes.')

Quote from: damionI am the only one who has a romantic partner who doesn't game?  She expressed interest, but didn't really like it. ...
She also seems to be one of these players who wants to go off an explore their own charachter and not do anything with a unified plot or group. I've wondered that if she was allowed to do that for a while, she'd become more 'group' friendly, but...

Meguey's suggestions about observing what your s.o. likes and working with it seems useful here.

Well, it sounds like your partner enjoys the process of character development, but may need to develop a taste for interacting with world and other characters.  

You might try a narrativist game like Sorcerer where each player is encouraged both to develop their own character's story, and to appreciate what the other players are doing. Her interactions with characters run by the gm could ease her out of self-containment.  

--Emily Care

My wife to be does not game. I appreciate that. When I try to talk about my games, I get a very nice "Terry, this conversation would probably work out better if you were talking to someone who understood what you were talking about"

That reminds me that I have other friends.

She isn't interested in gaming mostly because she's a bleeding heart pacifist. It made MTG games rather difficult when she'd attack nothing and just criticize the artwork.

I have "involved" gamers in my groups now. Sometimes it's like hanging out with married lawyers. Objectivity can be lost and the next thing you know you're watching a game within a game.

I've seen gamers meet and start dating. Don't even get me started on that one.

Now there is something to be said about the social out look of a gamer who finds a gamer to date. That cool on one hand but an open minded or better yet, an apathetic non gamer is worth their weight in gold.

Doc Midnight

QuoteHere's my thought based on the big issue: why should or should not one attempt to interest one's romantic partner in role-playing?

Well, I certainly can't offer figures with proven statistical significance. But among my married role playing friends (including myself), I've noticed a very distinct pattern. Divorce rate among those whose spouses were role players or became role players during the courtship: zero percent (n=7; mean years married=14). Divorce rate among those who married partners hostile to or uninterested in role playing: fifty percent (n=4), both of the divorces occurring within five years of marriage.

So, if you're talking about a girlfriend/boyfriend of the week (or month, or year) I can't think of any good reason to attempt to interest one's partner in gaming other than needing another player or not wanting to split up on game night. I also can't think of any good reason not to, unless the sex is too good to pass up and you don't want to risk it by revealing your unseemly nerdiness. But if you're talking about a potential life partner, one should attempt to interest him or her in role-playing, because it's a potentially revealing indicator of intellectual compatibility. (Not the only one, of course. In the two 'mixed' role-player non-role-player marriages that have lasted, there are other strong shared intellectual domains, science in one case and the creative pursuit of wealth in the other.)

This goes a little deeper than "the couples who role-play together stay together." It's not an issue of whether you actually end up gaming or not, together or otherwise, now or five or ten or fifteen years from now. It's about sharing (or not sharing) a certain proclivity for imaginative play and a willingness to pursue same outside (especially if you're old enough to be contemplating marriage) of standard social expectations. I can't count how many times my wife and I have participated in some social event and been the oldest people present, or the youngest, or the only straight couple, or the only anglos, or the poorest, or the richest, or the only ones who attended college, or the only ones without advanced degrees. Whether we are currently role playing together or not (which varies from year to year), the fact that we can indicates a degree of compatibility in the way we look at life that makes a lot of other things possible.

- Walt

As a game designer: Meg sees the first and every subsequent draft of everything I write, game or no.  Hell, she sees every dumb little thing I build out of Legos, like I have to show her all the moving parts and things.  Her involvement has become, over the years, a part of my creative process.  If she'd been put utterly off by puppies, as many people are, the game probably wouldn't exist.

I'm going to generalize that to, as Paul says: having a romantic partner who's involved in and supportive of your creative life, is good.  You can rely on other friends and your community to keep you humble and honest (example: all you all).  Somebody who digs it because you made it, who will point out your worst offenses gently, and who knows what you meant even if you said it badly -- you want that as well.

I think that if we were talking about writing generally, it'd be noncontroversial.  Authors all the time thank their lovers and spouses for "reading innumerable drafts, putting up with me acting like an obsessive poorly-socialized boring person for 12 years, and then typing the damn thing up when I had that breakdown."

As a game player: I think I'm kinda with Scott.  At least, my experience is that when I roleplay, I do this like balancing act with the people I'm playing with -- my relationships with them influence the way I play.  When I'm roleplaying with Meg, my relationship with her has the most weight, and she most influences my play.  Sometimes it's cool, if I'm expressing stuff that's Meg-relationship-friendly; sometimes it's inhibitory.  Same's true, I suppose, any time I'm hanging out with friends including/not including her.

I guess my ideal would be to play a ton, sometimes with Meg and sometimes without.

And I'd generalize that to: roleplaying with a romantic partner is like doing any social thing with a romantic partner, for good and bad.

(Oh, and I want to say that my relationship with Emily is pretty significant itself, and, like waves interfering, sometimes the two coolnesses build each other up and sometimes the inhibition is just overwhelming.  'Slife.)

-Vincent

(He he.  The second half of this post reminds me of writing one of those "I don't want to say too much, because my players might read this" posts, except that I might end up in the doghouse.)

Vincent,

I think we all agree with the first part of your post. Having the support system for creative endeavors, at home, is a fine thing. The spouse doesn't have to be a gamer to put up with a gamer.

The second part of your post is where issues tend to arise. If one has to alter style of play because of one persona sitting at the table then is that really a thourough gaming experience? I'd have to say not.

If I'm playing a foul mouthed woman hater in a CoC game, I want to be free to take that character to the limits of social good taste while still being a foul mouthed so and so. If my supportive but not entirely understanding wife is in the same game.......

I think role playing is alot like acting in film when it comes to having the signifigant other around. They have to be able to suspend their disbelief enough to allow you to do what you do well.

Doc Midnight

I'll hazard saying that Vincent's refering more to the "oh, I just landed hard on Meg's *don't put kids in danger merely to pull heartstrings*  issue" sort of altering play based on players. I'm pretty confident that DocMidnight's "foul mouthed woman hater" would be fine (as long as I knew it was a character. I got stuck in the cross-fire once in a game with an *actual* foul-mother woman-hater). I'm all for pushing game limits, but, like other areas of role-play, emotional safty can be respected.

~Meguey

Hey Doc.

I don't think there's any gaming anywhere where you don't balance and negotiate your relationships with your fellow players.  If you choose not to play a foul-mouthed misogynist in a game because one of the other players will be offended, that's just a choice, it's just you respecting the boundaries of the other player.  Alternately, you could disregard the boundaries and deal with the repercussions on your relationship, and that's just a choice too.  The significance of your relationship with that other player -- wife, in this case -- might figure or might not, that's a choice too.  There isn't a must or mustn't.

When I play with Meg, I mostly don't play characters who are her characters' lovers (nope, Meg, that's not what I was thinking at all).  When I play with Jav, I don't play characters who are anybody's lovers.  When I play with Em, I like to play characters who hang out with hers, lovers or not.  That's the kind of inhibition I'm talking about, and it doesn't make for less thorough roleplaying.  It ..um.. directs my play, it doesn't make it lame.  With one or two awkward exceptions.

I'm confident that your CoC character is just as inhibited by your consideration of your relationships with your fellow players.  That's the big social ape way to do things.

Sometimes, the relationship is both significant and kind of brittle, and the other person is sensitive to things you do "in pretend."  Those people are really hard to game with, you're absolutely right about that.

-Vincent

Kevin671 said:

QuoteSee, I am usually too scared to introduce partners into the roleplaying world, for fear that they are going to think that I am a geek [snip] Added to the fact that my main gaming group for my entire high school career was nearly entirely male, and when a female player did become involved I suppose the fact that all the other players were guys probably drove them away. It might've not been so bad, if there were more female gamers out there, so that a newer female gamer might be a little less intimidated to come to the table. I truely envy those of you who are able to blend the two worlds effectively.

Two things: first, the fear o' geekdom factor. I wish more folks would own up to roleplaying. Yes, sometimes we get supergeeky about last session, but overall, I've found gamers to be more creative, more widely read, more articulate, more able imagine themselves in another's position and more interesting than non-gamers. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Second point: if there is a desire to have female gamers of any age, ya gotta start 'em young. I think 6 or 7 is good, because they're still kids, still totally into 'pretend'.  Also, up to high school girls generally are into the idea of theater and drama - lots of women I know came to gaming by way of the Society for Creative Anachronism, Ren faires or LARP-type stuff. Then we jump over to later posts on this thread by Doc Midnight, Vincent, and myself about respecting player's sensibilities: if you're a gang of high school boys playing Babes in Chainmail Bikinis & Wonkin' Great Magic Swords, chances are reasonable you're not going to have girls knocking down the door to get in the game. On the other hand, one of the few saving graces of WWs Noun:the Gerund games was tremendous gender cross-over.  Play a supercool vampire chick or a bitchin' werwolf girl? Count my female high school (previously) non-gamer friends in!  


Ron said:

QuoteHere's my thought based on the big issue: why should or should not one attempt to interest one's romantic partner in role-playing?

Well, I think the pros are fairly self-evident: sharing things with your partner is cool, avoiding the guilt tripping that folks have mentioned is good, and getting support for your creative efforts rocks. The cons have been touched on: fear of being seen as a geek loser, wanting space for your own interests, having circles of friends that don't perfectly overlap.

I think at base, it's about feeling support from our partners in what has meaning to us. We could, as Ron pointed out, be talking about sail-boating or stamp-collecting. Someone mentioned valuing their partner's perspective as a nongamer; that's great, and it still counts as support for what has meaning. I design quilts like Vincent designs games - constantly, usually with several in various stages already. He's not a quilter to nearly the degree that I'm a gamer, but he's designed a few, is happy to lend an eye, rarely gripes about the shelf space or money involved, and is awed by my mastery of the craft -- same as me with his games.

There's another bit to that, about the difference between tolerance, acceptance, and support of our partner's quirks, be they gaming or what-have-you. The three get confused, fairly often I think. To me, one tolerates something distasteful because of contractual relationship agreements. One accepts something at a neutral state, no real engagement either way. One supports something they see brings joy and has worth, even if only to the other, even if one can see no reason on this earth or any other why the other should care so much about a made-up character.  Given the choice, I think we'd all choose to be supported, and probably not just by one person, hence our dearly beloved gaming groups and other friends.


Hi, Clinton. You said:

QuoteMany people play role-playing games to deal with personal issues. If you're dealing with personal issues in the context of role-playing, your partner is the last person that needs to be there.

I agree totally with the first sentence, and quibble with the second. Our recent Ars Magica cycle has been all about how we interact with our fathers.  Some of this has been conscious, some has risen out of play, but it's been really interesting to see where it goes in affecting non-game thought.  I suspect that many more people use role-playing games to deal with personal issues than are ever aware that they are.  I mean, my almost-six year old is *constantly* fightly dragons in the backyard. I know enough about childhood development to know what he's doing: externalizing inner struggles and dealing with them in a creative, non-self-damaging way.

That's a lot of gaming in a nutshell, if you ask me. Why do we want to play people solidly in controll? Why do we want to try on being totally helpless? Or cross-gender? Or heartlessly cruel? Or drug-addicted? Because we're doing the same thing as my son, only we want more structure to hold it all. And, for some of us, we're awake enough to notice that, and to actively use gaming as an outlet, hence my current vicious Otherkind character, venting my frusterations with said son in a safe, non-self-damaging way.

~Meguey

Quote from: lumpleyHey Doc.

I don't think there's any gaming anywhere where you don't balance and negotiate your relationships with your fellow players.  

I think this happens more in the getting to know your group phase. My group has been together for five years now. By this point we've gotten beyond stepping lightly around each others idiosyncracies and politics.

QuoteIf you choose not to play a foul-mouthed misogynist in a game because one of the other players will be offended, that's just a choice, it's just you respecting the boundaries of the other player.  

But that doesn't happen in my group. What does happen is that we have a guy who almost fits that description and he doesn't stry far from it in the characters he plays either. When we switch games, other player will take that role on so he can see it from the outside and it's helped his play.

QuoteAlternately, you could disregard the boundaries and deal with the repercussions on your relationship, and that's just a choice too.  The significance of your relationship with that other player -- wife, in this case -- might figure or might not, that's a choice too.  There isn't a must or mustn't.

We don't put each other in positions wher we have to make those types of choices. We play games and allow each other the space to play whatever types of characters we need to. I'm speaking of my fellow players here, not my wife to be, who isn't nearly involved enough to understand.

QuoteI'm confident that your CoC character is just as inhibited by your consideration of your relationships with your fellow players.  That's the big social ape way to do things.

Some games are really just moving fodder around on a board. Relationships are made and broken in game. My characters aren't inhibited by my consideration for my other players unless they are either young, or new to being around me, or in laws.


Doc Midnight