I'm working on an archery supplement because it seem to me (but i may be wrong) that the archery rules for tRoS don't have the same level of depth as the hand to hand rules. Since there appears to be many ambushes, I would like to bow rules to have the same amount of consideration put to them as the melee rules.
Here's what im looking for:
An excell spread sheet of probabilities of success for rolls in tRoS
websites with good gritty info for determining weapon strength, range, accuracy, etc for bows
people who are experienced archers that I can run questions by
Scott
Great idea,
The player character in the solo game I'm running is an archer, so bow combat will be very common. I've been thinking about the shallowness of the archery rules for a while now, just never got around to doing anything about them.
I'll help as much as I can, here are a couple of URLs. The first is from a discussion of archery, musketry, and swordsmanship it has some discussion of what an archer needs to do to keep his weapon in good condition.
http://www.mirror.org/terry.hickman/Archery.htm
The second is just an overview of archery but I thought it was interesting for the breakdown of the actions involved in shooting a bow.
http://www.myoan.net/shootingart/sm_arch_overview.html
I'll keep looking, let me know if you need anything else.
-Holt
I've made a spreadsheet that computes probabilities for ten sided dice pools from 1 up to 20 dice and from a Target number of 2 up to 20. It also determins the odds of fumbling. If you're interested, just send me an email and I'll attach it to the reply.
You both speak of the "shallowness" of ranged combat rules as if it's a detriment. I disagree if this is the sentiment you are expressing, though. While there is an awful lot which goes into maintaining a ranged weapon for accuracy and effectiveness purposes, when it comes down to the nitty-gritty of actually shooting at someone, or throwing a weapon at someone, there's very, very little variation in the basics. For a bow, you nock the arrow, draw, aim and release. For a thrown object, you cock back, aim and throw. It's actually a very, very simple process.. There's not a lot of tactical variation available in the heat of the moment. Any tactical considerations are either peripheral, having little direct connection to the actions of firing/throwing (such as cover, awareness of one's surroundings, etc.) or require forethought prior to the action of firing (such as position, preparation, etc.) I think the ranged combat rules are wonderfully apt for the actual process. Sure, it abstracts it a little, but it's not possible to go into every detail without slowing game-play down too much to make the detail worthwhile.
Not at all, he merely wants to play around with the rules governing archery to see if he can make them any better (much like what I did with the armour rules), and I'm interested to see what he comes up with. Don't let pride allow you to ever stop trying to improve yourself, your country, or your RPG! ;)
And by the way, crossbows are significantly different than bows; they are stored energy weapons (ie you don't have to maintain your hold while you are aiming. Also, lets not forget slings and blowguns, the latter being quite rare, but the first has always been popular all the way back to King David's time, and they are significantly different than just picking up a stone and whipping it at somebody.
Not that you brought any of this latter part up in your post, but there are significant differences between various types of ranged weapons, the skills needed to adequately utilize them, and the various outcomes associated with each (i.e. ...if I didn't hit that Gol, what did I hit!? Oops! Sorry. :)
Wolfen,
You're right about there not being a lot of actual variation to using missile weapons, but even though I love TRoS, the missile rules are pretty limiting, not for the tactics involved but for actually fitting missile combat into the game.
They work, but only if there's nothing but missile combat going on, if there's melee happening at the same time it becomes difficult to fairly judge what is going on in the fight.
Some people will inevitably claim that you can't have missile combat in melee, they may be right, but I'm not convinced of it, and the rules as they stand don't make fitting it in easy. For example, how do archers fit into the attacker/defender process of melee?....Can MP be used like CP, for terrain and buying initiative?....even if it can be, remember that an archer only gets his wits in MP per round after being ready, this doesn't give him a lot of dice to work with.
I'm not making this arguement in favour of having 'Legolas like' archers in combat with everyone else. I'm saying that there will be times that missile and melee meet and that the rules as they stand, although great for 'missile only' combat, don't mesh with the game as a whole and can't cope with it. Not to sound overly critical, because I think the rest of the game is great, the missile rules feel like an afterthought.
-Holt
(edit)
I just read Durgil's post and he makes some good points. Thrown weapons, such as knives or a rock, (or even the tankard that your character is drinking from when he starts that bar brawl) will show up in melee a lot more than bows or crossbows.
There is one thing that bugs me with the missile system. Either you hit the intended area, or you miss completely. I wan't to be able to aim for the chest and accidently hit a leg. A good rule that covers this, and I'll be very happy. Otherwise I like the system as it is.
Quote from: MokkurkalfeI want to be able to aim for the chest and accidently hit a leg. A good rule that covers this, and I'll be very happy. Otherwise I like the system as it is.
That's a really good point too. They've got something exactly like that in one of versions of the HarnMaster Rules. I think I'll go and take a look at those and see what I can come up with without adding a lot more time to resolve the actions.
QuoteThere is one thing that bugs me with the missile system. Either you hit the intended area, or you miss completely. I wan't to be able to aim for the chest and accidently hit a leg. A good rule that covers this, and I'll be very happy. Otherwise I like the system as it is.
This is a matter of Seneschal's call, and is equally missing from melee combat, honestly. Whether you hit or miss is handled no differently than in melee combat at all really, once the dice are thrown.
And Durgil, I'm going to have to disagree with you. The details differ certainly, but the fundamental steps of prepare, aim, fire/throw do not change between crossbow and a thrown rock (or tankard). Yes, there are different skills which apply to each, which is why there are different proficiencies for each. The game makes necessary abstractions which gloss over these details, because no one wants to study history lessons and weapons handbooks simply for the purpose of understanding how to play a game. Well, almost no one, anyhow... There are exceptions to every rule.
As for whether you hit something else if you miss your target, that is also a Seneschal's call. Admittedly rules could be put into place for it, but it's hardly a necessary addition. Just let the Seneschal make the call, says I.
I'm not against you fiddling and trying to improve on the system. I just don't think there's much room for improvement. Addition, yes, but more is not necessarily better. If you come up with something that adds to the game without notable detriment, I will happily eat my words and embrace the new idea.
Would it be possible to wait for me to put something out, before you say it is not useful. : )
Yes, some poeople dont want more detail, I understand, we all understand that some people are not simulationists. Anything could be made more complex, or more simple.
Why is the current missle system perfect in every way, the balance between simplicity and complexity is perfect. I would say that this is not an absolute, it is different for everyone. I am making a more complex system. Please just disregard this thread instead of saying my work is pointless before I even start anything. : )
Note: smilies, i am happy, not angry
Thanks,
Scott
(I think this is my first rant)
(if you would like to respond to this please do it at sgalthoff@icqmail.com so we dont have to take up space on this thread, i'd like to have just constructive comments on it)
I'd like to reitterate my questions in case they got missed:
Does anyone know any websites with good gritty info for determining weapon strength, range, accuracy, etc for bows?
Are anybody experienced archers that I can run questions by?
Thanks,
Scott
Quote from: svenlein
Here's what im looking for:
An excell spread sheet of probabilities of success for rolls in tRoS
websites with good gritty info for determining weapon strength, range, accuracy, etc for bows
people who are experienced archers that I can run questions by
Scott
send me email at john_doerter@hotmail.com put ARCHERS in the subject line so I don't spam it into the trash.
I've got works spreadsheets for many different
things. I'll happily send you average # success,
% chance of success, % chance of fumble (base rules)
% chance of fumble for my House Rule: fumble roll
And anything similar you think will help you. Excel takes works spreadsheets just fine.
I don't see exactly what your going for, or the need, but want to see where you end up.
As for bows in melee, your right.. in ROS bowman takes about 4-5 melee attacks for each arrow he has to draw and knock. The other thing to consider is that the bow itself might be attacked one of those times... or the string. Something else to consider... if your dodging blows, or parrying with your bow.. wouldn't that slow the drawing and knocking procedure even more?
Typically bow wielders swing bow like a club, draw a shortsword (or other melee weapon, best choice IMO), or run away. An alternative in war was to give them a rank of meleers to shield them, this could severely limit thier field of fire at close range.
Quote from: MokkurkalfeThere is one thing that bugs me with the missile system. Either you hit the intended area, or you miss completely. I wan't to be able to aim for the chest and accidently hit a leg. A good rule that covers this, and I'll be very happy. Otherwise I like the system as it is.
That's not entirely true. Check the optional hit mod table at the beginning of the appendix.
Jake
Just to clarify, I didn't say it was useless, nor pointless. Just not necessary, in my opinion. If I can't sway you, fine. I've got little to add to this otherwise, so I'll probably just keep my mouth shut from here until you get something worked out.
Quote from: Jake NorwoodQuote from: MokkurkalfeThere is one thing that bugs me with the missile system. Either you hit the intended area, or you miss completely. I wan't to be able to aim for the chest and accidently hit a leg. A good rule that covers this, and I'll be very happy. Otherwise I like the system as it is.
That's not entirely true. Check the optional hit mod table at the beginning of the appendix.
Jake
Oooh, your'e right. I missed that one. But it still says "at seneschal's discretion", and the problem is, to me, that it is such an important decision to make. It could spell life or death for a character(i.e. hit unarmored head or some armored part). Some players, probably mine included, wouldn't appreciate if an arrow aimed at their breastplated chest accidently hit their head, by *my* decision. Better if there's a hit table to decide that.
Another thing I'd like is a hit table for when just shooting at a person in general, such as when shooting from very far distances. That would be a lot easier to make, I assume.
for what it is worth, As seneschal, my snap decision would be this is a rare event. Roll 1/2 the dice at 2xTN, If this hits, roll randomly for adjacent area. Treat as a hit with one success. Personally I'd exclude head from the miss. Probably talking arms only here... would have to be really odd circumstances for a successful dodger to put the head in the way of a hit on a different part of the body.
Quote from: MokkurkalfeSome players, probably mine included, wouldn't appreciate if an arrow aimed at their breastplated chest accidently hit their head, by *my* decision. Better if there's a hit table to decide that.
Another thing I'd like is a hit table for when just shooting at a person in general, such as when shooting from very far distances. That would be a lot easier to make, I assume.
So you say "I am the Senescheal, and this is my hit table."
Speaking of dodging incoming missiles, I can see dodging something of relatively slow velocity such as a spear, rock, or a knife, but it can't be as easy to dodge something as high velocity as an arrow or crossbow bolt.
I really don't see it as much more as seeing someone knock the arrow, pull back, and take aim and then duck for cover behind a wall, tree, or shield or whatever else is available. Once you hear the sound of the bow string, it's pretty much a waist of time to dodge the arrow stucking in you.
Dodgeing an arrow at close range is very difficult, better to take evasive movement to make it hard to aim at you.
At long range I have read it was not terribly difficult to side step a single arrow, thats why volleys are used at long ranges, and directed single shots at short ranges ("Independence, fire at will ... Oh, thats very nice of him"). Note: "tended to" not "always"
Please tell me if you believe these statements are false in any way.
Scott
I agree that dodging is not so much getting out of the way of a projectile already in flight, but choosing the right moment to dodge out of the way as they throw/fire whatever. I'd say this even with thrown spears and knives.. Unless you time it right, most projectiles moving fast enough to injure you will hit you before you are out of the way. Due to this, I would only allow someone to dodge if they were aware of the archer/whatever prior to the release of the projectile.
And if it missed, "at my discretion" I would roll a die to determine where it went to... For instance, a d6, 1 and 6 would be misses, 2, 3, 4 and 5 would be respectively down, left, up, and right. I would then take the attacker's total successes, and reduce them again by the defender's margin of success. In the case of no successes at ALL on the attacker's part, the arrow would have fouled, or hit some intervening object, or slipped and struck the ground before the target, or simply missed entirely, and sailed harmlessly by.
I think Wolfen's got it. I mean the dodge is more of a pre-emptive dodge than anything else...
Quote from: LyraxI think Wolfen's got it. I mean the dodge is more of a pre-emptive dodge than anything else...
Absolutely must be true in regards to firearms.
OTOH, I've dodged paint balls fired at 150 MPH. If you have enough range, you can dodge missile weapons, believe me. That's the key, though, range.
What I'd have is your Pre-emptive dodge (hard, not often effective), and then, if applicable, further dodge with difficulty based for range and weapon speed.
Mike
Quote from: MokkurkalfeSome players, probably mine included, wouldn't appreciate if an arrow aimed at their breastplated chest accidently hit their head, by *my* decision. Better if there's a hit table to decide that.
Another thing I'd like is a hit table for when just shooting at a person in general, such as when shooting from very far distances.
Totally makes sense. At anything over point blank you almost always aim at what is termed "center of mass" meaning the middle of the target. And hope to hit anything. A well placed shot does hit the torso, however. Hero system has good charts for this and for things like "Upper half" CoM, and "Lower half" CoM.
Mike
Quote from: MokkurkalfeQuote from: Jake NorwoodQuote from: MokkurkalfeThere is one thing that bugs me with the missile system. Either you hit the intended area, or you miss completely. I wan't to be able to aim for the chest and accidently hit a leg. A good rule that covers this, and I'll be very happy. Otherwise I like the system as it is.
That's not entirely true. Check the optional hit mod table at the beginning of the appendix.
Jake
Oooh, your'e right. I missed that one. But it still says "at seneschal's discretion", and the problem is, to me, that it is such an important decision to make. It could spell life or death for a character(i.e. hit unarmored head or some armored part). Some players, probably mine included, wouldn't appreciate if an arrow aimed at their breastplated chest accidently hit their head, by *my* decision. Better if there's a hit table to decide that.
Another thing I'd like is a hit table for when just shooting at a person in general, such as when shooting from very far distances. That would be a lot easier to make, I assume.
This isn't a "when the seneschal feels like it" sort of thing, but rather, "in my games, I use this table." That's the idea.
Jake
Alright. Got it.
I think I'll snatch Wolfen's d6-method. Such a marvel of simplicity.