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Question for everyone -- why are there fewer and fewer encouraging responses and rigorous discussions in the Indie Game Design forum?

To me, that forum (and maybe Actual Play) is the single most valuable resource on these forums. And yet, the folks from whom I want to hear are largely absent. The "old guard" just doesn't post as much any more -- myself included. I lurk like crazy there, but many wonderful, creative voices have quieted.

What appears to be happening (please do correct me if my superficial scan is just wrong) is that we have a slew of "new guard" and some "middle guard" regulars who keep posting at most anything that comes along -- Pale Fire, for example, who's definitely a prolific poster. This is, of course, wonderful! New blood is great. My concern is: Why the loss, or at least reduction of the old blood, too?

As I write this, 9 of the most recent 40 posts on Indie Game Design have 0 replies, and 6 of the most recent 40 have one or two replies. That means that almost 40% of posts there are largely unreplied to. Well, ok it doesn't quite mean that, as one or two of those threads are simple announcements.

Other observations -- the forum has a much higher post turnover rate, unlike, say, last year at this time when 4 or 5 subjects would be discussed thoroughly for a string of days before a new crop cycled through. Now, we have two-day old posts falling off the first page. That kind of frequent, rigorous discussion is what I miss most.

Now, rather obviously, I'm as guilty -- probably more so! -- as the next guy or gal. I mean, let's face it, I just don't reply much -- certainly not as much as I used too -- and that's pretty irresponsible in several ways. Give and take, and all that. I have lots of reasons, like I'm busy with this or that (victim of my own success?). I'm sure many of the people whose commentary I miss have similar reasons or excuses.

In fact, I confess entirely selfish reasons for posting this -- I was eager to see some commentary from people I recognize regarding two recent posts I made on my new project, Nine Worlds. So far, Jonathan Walton, four weeping willows and Demonspahn have commented (and I certainly appreciate that -- don't mean to diminish their good feedback!). Other than their commentary (and, granted, we're not talking about months old posts here), feedback has been nil.

Now, I don't mean to suggest this as a means to get some feedback for me. I'm a big boy, and I already know what a good number of people think about my new game. For all appearances otherwise, I don't mean this to be me whining.

So, I guess what I'm saying is this: There's simply no denying the Forge has changed over the last year pretty dramatically. There's also no use in suggesting it wouldn't or needn't change! Obviously, that's so. However, has it changed for the better for you (and I'm speaking more so to the many regulars who've been here for, say, a year or more)? I submit that for me, at least, it's usefulness to me as a game designer has suffered noticably becaue the community of voices I seek has quieted noticably. It probably has improved for me as a vehicle to share my games with customers and potential customers.

Do you come for the Forge for the same reasons you used to? If so, are you still satisfied? If not, what's changed for you? Have things changed negatively? If so, would you like to do something about it, or see others do something about it? Have the change been more positive for you? How so?

Just a quick comment here Matt: I'm always wondering how to breathe more life into those subjects that I post. For some reason posting a long detailed analysis of something usually is exactly what kills it a thread.
I must be doing something wrong. Look at my threads, how many of the ones I started actually had the final post written by yours truly?
Pretty damn many of them.

Finally I've figured out that the best way is kind of throwing out a subject and then let people jump at it and discuss it amongst themselves without contributing. This method might yield 10+ comments compared to the 1 or two you harvest if you jumped in after the first comment.

But I guess most of the problem is in me. I must be doing something wrong to be killing off my threads even when I wish the discussion to continue.

The way I use the site is to hit the "Show posts since last visit".

This can lead to from 2 (average) to 5 (heavy) pages of threads with posts in them.  Of these, I read many of them or at least skim them. Some topics I skip over entirely...others I always read when new stuff is there.

How much of the rest I read is dependant on how 'busy' the site is that day... mostly I 'bounce' from one post i'm following to another, with stops on 'interesting looking topics'. On busy days take long enough to plow through everything i'm already following.

Posting on them is something else...
I lurk a lot, and have been for months. I often don't have anything to add that hasn't been said first or better by someone else.

Regarding Nine Worlds... It seems to me like this past week saw a lot of posting of new game ideas and settings for them. I (checking back) started reading, then about halfway through skimmed down to 'others comments'. Saw the Demi-urge (sp) definition discussion going and said to myself "Lets check back on this when I have time to do it justice" Which I still haven't done to well...
(I love the planets tie-in...) (card mechanics....this could work with Tarot decks...a game around them is one of my interests)

So, after all that, its the busy-ness of the site

This may seem strange; I'm always eager to help someone design a game, but I don't read most of the threads on the Game Design forum. The reason for this is simple: too many of them begin with either a very long explanation of a game or a link to a complete draft of a game, and attempt to discuss the beast in its entirety. I have family waiting impatiently for me to finish the forums and spend time with them; I don't have time to learn twelve games a week (or the mental accuity to remember them in detail from one day to the next). Thus I will almost always read a thread which doesn't mention a particular game, because these almost always are focused on very narrow problems; I will almost never look at a thread whose title suggests that it's a very general discussion of the latest draft of something. I'll read a game-specific thread if there's reason to think it is very narrowly focused and I can contribute to it without learning the entire game.

I apologize for this; it may even prove to be unfair, as I have been contemplating asking the forum for feedback on a new game (something that's been in the works for a while, intended as an introductory game for people who don't know anything about rpg's) so I would be hoping others would do what I do not. But I only have so much time, and I can't read everything every day.

--M. J. Young

I'd tend to agree with M. J. Young.  Speaking from expirience (of which I only have some) I've received much more feedback when I presented only a small portion of the game I'm working on.  Then, when I feel like I've gotton some solid feedback, I move on to another subject.  It's just easier to digest a game, and to get interested in one, if it's presented in small nugets.

Hey there,

I guess I count as a member of the "old guard", so here's my rambly, long-winded response.

My reading habits are strictly based on interest.  I read what sounds interesting to me.  Generally that means topic headings have to grab me, but sometimes I afford certain other people an automatic look based on name recognition alone.  

Posting to a topic is a totally different thing.  I only post to threads when I have something valuable to add (and sometimes, when an idea really strikes me, to heap praise at someone's feet, although this is pretty rare).  This has always been my policy regarding posting; I'm not a systems monkey, so that sometimes leaves me with precious little to say.

I think it's worth mentioning that the problem Matt is having is one I noticed and dealt with a long time ago.  I used to post a lot more than I do now (I do have over 500 posts to my name), but that was back when I was actively posting all of my new game designs to The Forge community for feedback.  The problem with that was that I kept getting the same responses from the same people* (mostly Forge stalwarts like Mike and Ralph, who could be counted on to respond to just about everything - honestly, I don't know how they do it).  My solution was to build relationships with these people, court their opinions through private discourse, and reveal my game designs to the online community only when they were further along in development.

* Herein lies another problem I had, which Matt and many others do not suffer from (but I'm almost certain many others do): I was designing and posting games purely for the "quick fix" I got from seeing people's responses.  Almost as soon as the threads died, so did the games.  Once I recognized my own behavior, I resolved not to post further about my own designs, at least not until I was ready to get down to brass tacks and design something real.  That hasn't really solved any problems for my close friends, who still get to hear about every crazy idea I have, but I do think it's better to languish in this way outside the court of public opinion.

- Scott

P.S.  Lumpley and Bankuei: I haven't forgotten about Lapdogs or Draconic, and someday I'll finish them.

Where have I been?  I've been really busy (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39434#39434).

I had a longer response, but I hit ctrl-R when I wanted shift-R, so all you get is the short form.  Why don't I post on something?

It's already been said.

It's not in my realm of expertise.[/list:u]I usually wait a few hours before posting on a new thread and often what I would have said gets said.  If I see a glaring omission, I'll jump in, otherwise....

I don't do analyses.  I'll comment if I see a game with an idea that treads ground I've gone over, but otherwise....

And then there's this:

Quote from: Pale FireFor some reason posting a long detailed analysis of something usually is exactly what kills it a thread.

I must be doing something wrong.

But I guess most of the problem is in me. I must be doing something wrong to be killing off my threads even when I wish the discussion to continue.

I used to think the same way.  Turns out I was wrong.  When you post "a long detailed analysis of something," you tend to get it right.  You nail it; there's just nothing left to be said.

You're not doing something wrong, you're doing something right!

The big problem is if you want discussion, you got to leave something to question.  If you solve it, who's going to respond?  Do you want your peers to attack everything you write?

Silence is golden (and unfortunately the sound of ringing endorsement is the same as studied indifference: silence).  You just gotta imagine that no response means that they're out there, just clapping.

I had more, but I gotta sleep.

Fang Langford

QuoteI used to think the same way. Turns out I was wrong. When you post "a long detailed analysis of something," you tend to get it right. You nail it; there's just nothing left to be said.
You're not doing something wrong, you're doing something right!

Well you've told me the same thing in private Fang. However, I'm not sure I can fully subscribe to that. For some that is certainly the case, but for others...

Well I have been politely suggested that people occasionally stop posting to my threads because they get fed up with my unfinished ideas and get too disgusted to keep on reading and replying.

So I can't say that I sit safe and believe that just because people don't reply it's because they have nothing to add. Sometimes you have a topic which piles up a few views, like 20 or so. Like this old one (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3781)... notice how I beg for a at least a teenie wheenie feedback it sounds interesting or not. How does one interpret the silence then? ;) Probably that people fell asleep before they finished reading it.

Quote from: Pale Fire

Quote from: Le JoueurI used to think the same way. Turns out I was wrong. When you post "a long detailed analysis of something," you tend to get it right. You nail it; there's just nothing left to be said.

You're not doing something wrong, you're doing something right!

Well, it has been politely suggested that people occasionally stop posting to my threads because they get fed up with my unfinished ideas and get too disgusted to keep on reading and replying.

So I can't say that I sit safe and believe that just because people don't reply it's because they have nothing to add. ...Notice how I beg for at least teeny-weenie feedback it sounds interesting or not. How does one interpret the silence then? ;) Probably that people fell asleep before they finished reading it.

Hey, if you have to be an extremist, you can look at it as though the glass is half empty...or half full (everyone is pleased and satisfied with your answer).  Be a pessimist if you like, but I ask you...

Why do you post?

Is it vanity?  Is it insecurity?  Boredom?  Loneliness?  For "a quick fix?"

Me, I post to share my thinking; I offer different perspectives when I can.  I post a lot about Scattershot because people have practically begged for 'that game you keep mentioning.'  I don't really need help with it, I get all the ideas I need just 'lurking.'  That makes it look 'done' and people wonder why I don't just post it; it still remains 'unwritten.'  This puts me in an awkward position.  I have all this experience working with the philosophies involved with creating a game and a singular example of how I've done it.  I am engaged in helping people over the 'bumps' I've encountered and that results in citing a game never published.  (This tends to give a lot of what I offer an 'ivory tower' sound to it, purely coincidentally.)  So I had to 'get it out there.'  Now people think I'm pandering or pimping.

I'm sure that some have privately indicated that they don't like "unfinished ideas;" I can assure you that it is mostly out of frustration over not seeing a complete product.  This is the 'just do it' mentality.  Furthermore, I'm sure that after a certain point it starts sounding like frustration.  That still doesn't hide the fact that most seem receptive to your ideas, if somewhat quietly.  If you only listen to people riled up enough by what you write to get off their butts and PM you, you'd better stop now because you'll never get the accolades you seek.  Is that why you post?  Seeking glory?  (I thought not.)

As far as this article goes (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3781), sure you start out begging (note: nobody likes, or responds favorably to, begging), but you don't produce anything.  It's just lists, what is one supposed to say to that?  Nobody on the internet has time for 'thumbs up'/'thumbs down' on every sketch of an idea, the very fact that no one complained is high praise in my book.  I've been all the way up and down the 'rpg designer' sources; just posting a list of stuff with no mechanics always draws the blank response from everyone except those with a personal interest in the project.  (Ever notice I don't do it?)

A problem you might be suffering is 'seeing the implications.'  You type up a fragment of your system, but to you it looks darn near complete.  To everyone else, it doesn't make any sense.  They can't see what you see (that you didn't type).  Take Scattershot for example (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1339), as far as the mechanics go (in my eyes) that's it.  All of it.  Is it taken as so?  Nope, 'cuz I see things that other people don't.  So I put out "Emergent Techniques" as soon as I see something I've missed about 'how to use' the Scattershot Mechanix (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1339).  People also ask for examples, I put up a whole webzine (http://www.scattershotgames.com) devoted to providing examples of everything.  And I'm still not there...

Listen I hear ya.

As far as I can tell, we're in the same boat.  People aren't going to give you the feedback you seem to want until you get them actually playing your game.  So I have to join the 'just do it' crowd and suggest you just finish a draft and get people playing it.  If your playtesters have nothing to say, then you'll have something to complain about.  Otherwise be patient.  I know I am.

As for the signal to noise ratio around here, it's just a phase.  They come and go.  For a while there was lots of pointless discussion with few games up.  Now is the reverse.  Don't worry, as long as everyone posts more on other people's games as their own, we'll catch up.  (It'll just take a coupla a months - and during the holidays too, sheesh.)

Fang Langford

p. s. I'm not an extremist, the glass is half-and-half.

I'm hardly "old guard," but I used to read the Indie Game Design forum, and post comments on occasion. I've mostly stopped. Damn thing's just too noisy. Too many people posting; I can't read every thread, and there's no way to tell which threads I'll find the most interesting, so I don't read it at all.

The same thing has nearly happened to RPG Theory. If it does, I'll probably stop visiting the Forge at all.

I originally liked the Forge because it was small enough that I could be interested in every conversation--almost like a mailing list, but with better organization. It no longer has that feeling.

Quote from: Seth L. BlumbergI'm hardly "old guard," but I used to read the Indie Game Design forum, and post comments on occasion. I've mostly stopped. Damn thing's just too noisy. Too many people posting; I can't read every thread, and there's no way to tell which threads I'll find the most interesting, so I don't read it at all.

The same thing has nearly happened to RPG Theory. If it does, I'll probably stop visiting the Forge at all.

I originally liked the Forge because it was small enough that I could be interested in every conversation--almost like a mailing list, but with better organization. It no longer has that feeling.

Ok, if this post isn't sending out LOUD warnings to folks, I don't know what else to say.

This is precisely what I feared is might be happening. I'm not 100% that it's that bad just yet, but I started this post in hopes of addressing just this issue before it might be too late.

Here's my take on what the problem is, and I think everyone sees it as obvious. Simply put, the Forge got too big for its britches.

Now, that's bound to happen to a site with something worth checking out. The trick is 1) whether the site CAN adapt and still be worthwhile and 2) whether the site WANTS to adapt to still be worthwhile.

Right now, I don't think the people who made the Forge what is (and I don't mean just Clinton and Ron, I mean lots of folks, myself included, he said humbly), I don't think those folks really, deep down want to adapt and/or keep the site thriving to the level it was, say, last spring or winter.

It's too much work, we're too busy, all the ideas are mediocre or have been there, done that. I don't want to keep saying the same things over and over. Whatever. It's becoming clear to me that the value of the Forge is diminishing. At least it is for me, and apparently is for a couple other folks like some of those who've posted above.

Now, that may mean the site just becomes something else. That's ok. RPG.net has changed dramatically in its mission over the years. It's still there, going strong and doing cool stuff.

Problem is, the direction the Forge seems to be headed in right now just doesn't reward me like it used to. That's what I'm lamenting. It was a vibrant community. I can't stress that word enough: COMMUNITY. It's absolutely important to recognize that the Forge was not just a "networking medium." So are telephone routers and singles bars. So what. The Forge was (is?) a fantastic COMMUNITY of intrepid, independent and innovative gamers and game designers. That community is disolving, it seems to me. And I think that's a damn shame.

Let me say, it's a community that is worthwhile. Hell, it's a community that got shit done. Dust Devils wouldn't exist without it. For everyone that was at GenCon, weren't you fucking inspired by the Forge? It was awesome. Now, I bet it'll happen again -- a booth like that. But will it be as vibrant? It seems to me that the community that made that event happen is much more disjointed now. It just don't think we can make that kind of energy sustainable without a continued community.

Hey Matt,

The short answer, I think, is that the Forge needs to evolve. There was a time when I could comfortably keep up with every active thread in the Forums. And it was my habit to do so. But, over the course of a number of months, I found my time investment was mushrooming like crazy. I have to believe there's been a 300% increase in the rate of thread creation since then.

You know how seven or eight people sitting around a living room is about the maximum number of partygoers who can have a collective conversation that doesn't fragment into little side discussions? I'm doubtful that there's any way for the Forge to re-pace and re-size itself to what it was when an 'old guard' could have one collective conversation about design coherence and actual play. I think those days are gone. The 'misfit games' threads a few months ago were my painful primal scream of awakening to this realization.

And so it seems to me that what the Forge needs to do is evolve. No longer can we be the internet's best resource for design feedback and playtesting for anyone and everyone who brings a game design to the site. The amount of time and energy required to meet the demand would necessitate a collective conversation among more individuals than could possibly have such a collective conversation. What we can do, however, is have a coherent conversation at a higher level. We can advise and consult with designers on how to pursue and obtain playtesting and design feedback from other sources. We can advise and consult with designers on how to provoke meaningful feedback from playtesters. And we can advise and consult with designers on how to interpret and evaluate playtest efforts and design feedback received from others. It seems to me that should the Forge forums remain a force of significance, it will be with threads entitled:  Are these questions going to return the kind of playtest feedback I need?,  How do I create interest in my game?, How do I get someone interested in reviewing my game on RPG.net?, How do I know when to stop tweaking my mechanics?, and Which of these design suggestions that I've received should I pay attention to?

Paul

Quote from: Matt SnyderOk, if this post isn't sending out LOUD warnings to folks, I don't know what else to say.

Amen.

I just joined the Forge a month ago, but already I can tell a difference between the recent forums and what you get from diving in the archives.  However, though this is probably just a reflection of how my perspective differs from the old timers', I don't think the "problem" is quite what you guys are making it out to be.

QuoteIt's too much work, we're too busy, all the ideas are mediocre or have been there, done that. I don't want to keep saying the same things over and over. Whatever. It's becoming clear to me that the value of the Forge is diminishing. At least it is for me, and apparently is for a couple other folks like some of those who've posted above.

I think the key point here is FOR WHOM is the value of the Forge diminishing?  Obviously, a lot of the "innovative" ideas that get posted nowadays are old hat to long-timers.  You've seen them before.  You've discussed them before.  You don't really have anything else to say on the subject.  However, for many of us "newbies," this may be the first time we encounter such things, and they are still worth discussing.  Still, there is a tendency for old timers to crack down on this with comments like "well, here's a list of 5 other games, some of which were never finished or published, that do the exact same thing."

So, what's happening is that the Forge is becoming less useful for EVERYONE, just because people expect/want different things from the Forge and this interaction is somewhat unhealthy.  Newbies want to find people who are interested in helping them explore their "original" ideas, and old timers are looking for the old sense of community and for experienced help with their own projects.

However, I would be willing to bet that the sense of "community" the Forge has didn't spring up overnight.  It grew out of a whole series of interactions.  I'm beginning to feel a sense of community with some of the other people that I've really put an effort into working with in the past month (willows, deadpanbob, etc.), but that's going to take a while to really blossom into a new "community" among the newer arrivals.

I'm also willing to bet that you guys didn't start out saying "oh, we've seen this before."  That is only a reflection of the depth of experience you have all gained by participating in this community.  Once the newer arrivals have that much info under their belts, they'll begin doing the same thing.

QuoteProblem is, the direction the Forge seems to be headed in right now just doesn't reward me like it used to. That's what I'm lamenting. It was a vibrant community.

I think what you're lamenting is the loss of the old sense of community.  That doesn't mean that the Forge can no longer be a community, just that it must become a different community than it was before.  And I don't think there's anything that anyone can do to stop it, aside from limiting who can be a member (and I don't think Clinton & Ron have any intentions of doing that).  What may be important is to try to figure out what sort of community we want the Forge to be and how we can go about making that happen.

That's a much more positive response than lamenting the change or trying to keep it from happening.

Later.
Jonathan

The existence of this thread pisses me off.  Here's why:

From what I see, we have a few older members complaining because of people like me.  As a newbie, after seeing a thread which basically says "all these newbies are ruining the Forge" why should I even bother to spend any more time here?  Too many posts on the boards??? It's A FORUM, PEOPLE!  Read what you want, post what you will, and ignore the rest.  That's how it works.  That's how it SHOULD work.

There's such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophesy, guys.  Keep up with this conversation and you'll probably get your wish, because newer members will take one look and not bother to come back.

Oh, and before you jump to any conclusions, I'm not taking this thread as a personal attack because I'm a newer member.  And I personally have no intentions of leaving the Forge.  I'm just VERY angry at what I see as basically undermining the makings of A Good Thing (tm), namely, a LARGE community of polite, articulate gamers.  How could that POSSIBLY be a bad thing??????

I cannot continue to express with any semblance of politeness how much this thread has disgusted me, so I'll stop here.

Hey,

I've received a suggestion that I clarify what I meant by the phrase "coherent conversation" as it was used metaphorically throughout the latter half of my post. Please interpret my usage of "have a coherent conversation" subsequent to the party analogy to mean "be engaged coherently and collectively in the activity as the primary expression of our shared sense of purpose."

Paul

Silkworm,

I agree.  I think this is a dangerous thread, at least to some degree.  I secretly always wonder what the lurkers out there are thinking when they see stuff like this, and with that in mind, it was very difficult for me to compose even the simple little response I did somewhat earlier in this thread.

On one hand, I want to answer Matt's question.  In some ways, I felt kind of responsible for this thread.  After all, I privately encouraged him to post about Nine Worlds, but then failed to present him with any valuable feedback.

On the other, I want to avoid sending a message to newer members that might give them the wrong impression.  I truly, honestly want new, creative game designers to have a place to post their designs, to enjoin in discussion a few levels higher than they might get elsewhere, and to feel comfortable in a community that's all their own.  

That community exists, but it's not always going to be everything everyone wants it to be.  

For my part, I've never lost that sense of community.  I've made friends through The Forge - people I e-mail with, phone with, and even hang out with socially - and this is still the place we have in common.  This is the place we come to talk about games, connect with other people, and maybe make some more friends in the process.  What could better than that?

Take care,
Scott

First off, before I go "rebutting" you point, I'm with you man. I actually agree with what you've said, so I offer these observations mostly under the "yeahbut" principal, as in "Yeah, but ... "

Quote from: Jonathan Walton
I think the key point here is FOR WHOM is the value of the Forge diminishing?  Obviously, a lot of the "innovative" ideas that get posted nowadays are old hat to long-timers.  You've seen them before.  You've discussed them before.  You don't really have anything else to say on the subject.  However, for many of us "newbies," this may be the first time we encounter such things, and they are still worth discussing.  Still, there is a tendency for old timers to crack down on this with comments like "well, here's a list of 5 other games, some of which were never finished or published, that do the exact same thing."

Yep, you've nailed one of my pet peeves -- when the "old timers" drop in, say, "Been there, done that. Read this: <link>" To me, that's off-putting. To a newbie, it might be downright frustrating, if not insulting, especially if that's all the person says.

The counter is that these folks HAVE been there, done that. Many times. So, I can sympathize at not wanting to say the same thing over and over. Problem is, it's not really good feedback, and certainly not feedback that encourages new community members, that fosters community. It reeks of "grumpy-old-man-ism." These kids today can't innovate like we used to. Such crap. That may not be the intention (in fact, I know it's not), but I really think it is the result or reaction from new folks. Saying that's the new folks' "problem" is irresponsible.

That's one reason among a handful of why I agree with you the Forge is becoming less useful for EVERYONE.

Quote from: Jonathan Walton
However, I would be willing to bet that the sense of "community" the Forge has didn't spring up overnight.  It grew out of a whole series of interactions.  ... <snip> ... I'm also willing to bet that you guys didn't start out saying "oh, we've seen this before."  That is only a reflection of the depth of experience you have all gained by participating in this community.  Once the newer arrivals have that much info under their belts, they'll begin doing the same thing.

Yep, you're right. The Forge has a long history that extends far back, beyond the Forge even. I'm a relatively new fella here myself, relatively speaking in that regard.

Quote from: Jonathan Walton
I think what you're lamenting is the loss of the old sense of community.  That doesn't mean that the Forge can no longer be a community, just that it must become a different community than it was before.

Close, but not quite. I already said I'm perfectly aware change is necessary at this point. That's fine, truly. I'm not whining that the "good old days" are changing. I'm lamenting the fact that the people whose viewpoints were really valuable then simply aren't around anymore. It isn't just "old guard" changing. Lately, it's been almost dead. There's a difference. I'm saying that the new community is nearly devoid of input from the old schoolers, not that the new folks have outnumbered their posts, for example.

Silkworm,

I truly think you're reacting emotionally to an issue I have yet to contend. I have NOT said at any point that I have a problem with new folks coming to the Forge. In fact, I have said precisely the opposite.

What I DID say was this: The folks who used to make the Forge really rewarding, the folks who used to foster new folks (like me, once) simply aren't as present and active as they used to be.

What's so hard to understand about that, folks? More than one person has missed this point.

Change here is inevitable. Adaptation and consistent quality is not.

As of right now, the Indie Game Design forum has lots and lots of neato ideas, and far, far less of the guiding hand and advice and criticism that used to keep those ideas sharp and engaging, even worthwhile to others working on other projects.

Oh, and I've got to say, when the hell did criticism of a potentially "politically incorrect" issue at the Forge become such a danger? Where the fuck are all those voices I keep saying I'm missing? I know Scott Knipe and M.J. Young and compnay aren't the only one's with opinions. I may have ticked someone off. So it goes. I'd rather have risked that, than shut up for fear of "politics" then later abandoned the Forge because it became something I can't enjoy or value.

Quote from: silkworm
Oh, and before you jump to any conclusions, I'm not taking this thread as a personal attack because I'm a newer member. And I personally have no intentions of leaving the Forge. I'm just VERY angry at what I see as basically undermining the makings of A Good Thing (tm), namely, a LARGE community of polite, articulate gamers. How could that POSSIBLY be a bad thing??????

So, this isn't a personal attack, and yet you're "VERY" angry and can't politely articulate how pissed you are? That sounds like speaking out of both sides of you mouth to me. Either you're pissed off or you ain't. I've yet to meet a person who gets pissed and magically doesn't take it personal.

The reason this could "POSSIBLY be a bad thing" is pretty subjective frankly. It's crochety "old" fools like me saying this place ain't what it used to be. It ain't. Others -- like Jonathan Walton, himself a newbie -- says he sees the same thing when he examines old posts. They're there for you to check out to. I recommend doing so! There's great stuff there. There's some great stuff now, too, just far less frequently than I'm used to seeing, and I truly believe that's not just because there are so many new posts. I think it's because there are just fewer good, solid, content-ridden posts that the Forge became so respected (and hated!) for.

But, if you'd read my post again, please, you'll realize I'm saying so because the people who made it what it "used" to be aren't around much anymore. It's NOT that they're outnumbered, they just aren't here.

Quote from: hardcoremoose
For my part, I've never lost that sense of community.  I've made friends through The Forge - people I e-mail with, phone with, and even hang out with socially - and this is still the place we have in common.  This is the place we come to talk about games, connect with other people, and maybe make some more friends in the process.  What could better than that?

Scott, I realize that's the case -- that many of the folks I'm talking about converse regularly. But they do so more and more frequently in private discourse. You and I do that fairly regularly (not least of all because we collaborated on a project). I chat with one or two other of the folks I'm talking here, but not many others. I'm saying that since the old guard went "indoors" more often I don't get to interact with them anymore. Lots of folks seem to have taken their ball and gone home.  I just really liked playing ball with them!

Here's an idea that might help restore the depth of discussion.

Rgulate the flow of new topics to the Indie Game Design forum. This requires someone (or someones) to act as gatekeepers, deciding which topics get talked about and which don't. This weeds out "not ready for prime time" topics, and the "been there, don that" topics. The obvious drawback is that there's a lot of work involved for someone, and the role is hideously political.  In short, all of the filthy allegations about "X wouldn't let my game be discussed on The Forge" would suddenly become reality.

This, of course, still changes the nature of The Forge. We would in effect accept one problem to alleviate another. It's an idea, though.

Quote from: Matt SnyderI'm not whining that the "good old days" are changing. I'm lamenting the fact that the people whose viewpoints were really valuable then simply aren't around anymore.

Well, if that's your real point (and one I totally agree with), then I think this thread has drifted dangerously off-topic (into newbie-bashing and newbies being overly-defensive).

Still, to try to bring things back on course, I would almost say that this is a natural progression.  Older members doubtlessly aren't as enraptured by the "coolness" of the Forge as I am, and aren't going to be able to commit as much time to answering posts that don't really interest them.  Sure, it may suck that the old timers don't get a voice in every thread, but that mainly has to do with the ratio of old/new, which is what some people are using this thread to complain about ("There's too many of them!  Ahhhh!").

However, like it or not, newbies are a pretty good audience for other newbies.  Often, they can provide better support (if not better advice) than old timers, because they are more sympathetic.  Hell, I may have only been aware of The Forge for a month, but that doesn't mean I know jack about game design.  I'm not Ron or Clinton, but I shouldn't have to be.  I can give a thoughtful, respectful response to a game design, just like anyone else.  And I've been used to writing on high-quality mailing lists for long enough that I could tell someone when they're out of place or missing the point.  This is true of a great many people who join the Forge.

I guess I'm funally understanding your concern, Matt, but I'm unsure about what you're suggesting we do about it.  We can't make the old timers write posts and we can't limit the number of newbies or their enthusiasm for posting.

So what's your solution?

Later.
Jonathan

Ok, let's stop the whining and really look at what we want, and what we can do to get it.

Matt, you're looking for a specific type of input.  Lay it out for folks so people know what you're looking for, whether they be new or old.  Here's my list:

•Intelligent, focused, polite conversation
•Clear communication(you don't have to agree with the terminology, just be aware of it)
•Applied theory, and exploring the limits of game theory

Second, the "Here, check this out" thing is not to tell folks to not  to design games, but to say, "Here's something someone else did, maybe you can do it better, or differently"  

If you came to me to talk about a game you came up with about kicking a ball, I'd tell you to check out soccer and kickball, not to discourage you, but as research.  If you love your idea, you want it to be good, you want to make sure you know all of your options and what you can really do with it.

As Ron put with Fantasy Heartbreakers, a lot of design assumes that certain things are necessary, which are not in any way.  A lot of the threads or games folks get pointed to are a quick way towards breaking those assumptions and opening new horizons.  You may find that something that sounded bad in theory is great in actual play, or vice versa.  

One thing the Forge has done that I appreciate more than anything else is that it assumes you're an adult, and treats you that way.  You are expected to provide clear reasoning, you are expected to read and acknowledge others points.  You are capable of going into the archives and researching for yourself.  If you're really interested, you'll take the effort and the responsibility for your design.  People will guide you, clarify, and be willing to hear new ideas from you, but I don't think anyone's going to hold anyone's hand.  

The only 'elitism' I've seen here is that you are assumed to be an intelligent functioning adult capable of upholding the basic social contract of politeness and reasoned discussion and treated as such.

If we're going to be doing anything productive here, let's look at what people are looking for from the Forge and how to encourage it.

Chris

Hey now, I'm an old-timer, but I post more often now than used to, even more than before I went into lurk mode for that extended period.

Just FYI and to maybe diffuse any black-and-white viewpoints anyone might be spouting. Then again, maybe my input sucks! Who knows.

However, the solution is obvious, to me, at least: there hasn't BEEN a changing of the guard, yet. What needs to happen is for the "middle-guard" to become the old guard by becoming more LIKE the old-guard...or perhaps that won't happen until after the newbies have settled in.

Vicious societal cycles.

Simply, there needs to be an exchange of information or "leadership" responsibilities that makes us say, "Oh HIM, we should listen HIM because he always has good things to say."

This developed naturally when the site first bloomed, due the usual interactions of members as they felt out their roles and learned about one another. Now, it may need to be ritualized in some fashion, public or obscure.

Quote from: BankueiOk, let's stop the whining and really look at what we want, and what we can do to get it.

Matt, you're looking for a specific type of input.  Lay it out for folks so people know what you're looking for, whether they be new or old.

A fair point (and thanks for your list).

My list: The really shitty thing about my list? It's effectively asking people other than myself to do stuff. Not something I'm inclined to suggest often ... oh well.

1) No. 1 and above all: Stonger adherence to Forge policies and stricter enforcement of those policies. Ron has already communicated that he's looking for help from others in limited ways. I'm simply saying I think this isn't as strict as it used to be. It was notorious. It was also notoriously good and effective.

2) A "state of the union" address from both Ron and Clinton on this and other Forge issues. It's been long enough now, I think, that I'd like to hear from the powers that be where they think the Forge is going and what role they'll have in shaping it. And, what role they expect from everyone else.

3) More frequent feedback from folks who've designed game here on the Forge. Basically, though not exclusively, these are the Moderators -- folks with forums of their on here at the Forge.

4) The continued, adult discussion that makes the Forge have such a high signal-to-noise ratio. This is good stuff. It ain't dead yet. Hardly so. But I want to see that ratio kept high!

Huh, I couldn't get through to The Forge this morning, and look what I miss.

I post more now than ever. In fact, I daresay I post at least twice what anyone else does. When told that I should not post "been there, done that" posts, I stopped posting to those threads where that was the case entirely, and that was all I had to say. Now I'm bad for not responding? I have an obligation of some sort to write to everyone who posts?

There is more material here than before. One can only post so many times a day. I'm averageing about ten a day lately, and frankly, I doubt that I could possibly post more. So what do I do?

The only thing I can do is filter, and post to the things that interest me most, or to which I think I have the most to offer. Am I wrong?

Matt, I wanted to see Dreamspires, and you gave me something else. You knew what I wanted to see. And you're surprised that I am not responding to your new game? Many of the games presented of late are about metaphysics, a subject that I am bored to death of. Am I obligated to respond to these? Sorry, just not interested anymore.

As for anybody else, well, I can only control my own actions, and don't care much to try to influence others.

Mountains, molehills. This too shall pass. I think people frett too much.

Anyone who wants to contact me directly to ask a question or to direct my attention to something in particular is free to do so, and will get a response. I have a personal address, and love to get mail.

Mike

Everyone,

The Forge, like most things, is cyclic. For example, I haven't posted at all recently. This is mainly from hermitism caused by unemployment. It's a great time to donate to the Forge, by the way. :)

I'm about to start posting heavily again as I settle in for the long no-job haul. I'm sure many of the "old guard" are taking a breather, too - we've all been amazingly productive. Look at all the great games that have come out recently or will come out soon, all started here.

A state of the union is coming, by the way - very, very soon. I'd expect next week.

Lastly, I think one reason you see less discussion from "old-timers" is that they've diversified their discussions. I have most of my serious RPG talk over the phone these days with a few friends, partially to recall that original Forge feeling.

This is the chrysalis of the Forge, folks. We started as a hardy, kick-ass caterpillar. We're changing and molting and becoming something bigger and different than we were. Hang on through the changing times, and I imagine you'll find it to be great.

Well I'll step in here, and maybe bail you out a bit Matt.

I know exactly the sentiment that you're talking about, and there is a bit of a sense of loss on my part as well.  That loss being the somewhat cozy nature of a number of articulate people who knew each other (electronically speaking) very well from having had relationships here and other other forums for some time.

But that has been replaced with a larger number of articulate people who don't know each other very well yet and those relationships are still being felt out.

I think in the long run this is a good and welcome thing (and I know you do to).

But in the meantime what about the participation of those older members...has that dropped off?

To some extent I think it has and that this is a natural progression of the site.  When many of us came to the Forge as a dissatisfied gamer seeking solutions to our problems we were all eagerly discussing, absorbing, debateing and at time argueing as we looked for those solutions.  Now hopefully, many of us have found (at least in part) solutions that (at least for now) satisfy us and allow us to return to enjoying our gaming.  So in that regard part of the decline in "old guard" posts may (hopefully this isn't wishfull thinking) be the result of people spending more time productively gaming and producing and who have less need of searching for answers.

Also "Old Guard" posting has dropped off a little intentionally (and there are a few requests by Ron for exactly this).  There is a danger when making "Old Guard" "New Guard" distinctions for the "Old Guard" to become the scholarly mentors and the "New Guard" be perpetually relegated to apprentice student.  By standing back and letting the "New Guard" take the lead in discussions of new games and new ideas we establish them as full members and no longer "newbies".

I find myself posting less and less but rather enjoying watching Jonathan and Chrisstopher et.al. (to many to list all of you, sorry) take a lead roll in the discussions.  For one hearing the same thing from the same people a hundred times (or in the case of Mike H. and I...a thousand times) gets pretty old.  Hearing other people articulate the same concepts in new ways is a good thing.  Further, to extend the analogy of the "guiding hand", if indeed the "Old Guard" served as a such a guideing hand, than certainly we'd hope that the people we helped guide are now in a position to be guides themselves.

If the new Indie Design threads aren't as detailed as they used to be, I suppose there are several likely contributing factors.  It could be that the "New Guard" is just beginning to feel their own way through the "guiding hand" process and will become more experienced at it as they go.  It could be that some of the "New Guard" aren't certain yet that they "should" be offering advice and may be holding back waiting for "Old Guard" input.  Hopefully a sentiment not held by many and quickly overcome.

A large part of it I think is that there are more new ideas on the Indie Design forum at one time than I have ever seen before.

To some extent this is a "good thing".  It means that the reputation of the Forge as a place for good game design advice is spreading and that as a crucible for new ideas we're growing.  However, it does mean that we need to work hard to preserve that reputation.  Given that it is impossible for the "Old Guard" to possibly give as much detail and attention to the Indie Design forum when there are 5 new ideas a day as when there was 1 new idea in 5 days, we need to welcome and encourage the "New Guard" shouldering a big part of that burden.

That said, I would welcome "narrowing the choke" so to speak on the Indie Design flood gate, but truly that is for a largely selfish idea...so that I personally can enjoy them all, which now I can't because there are at least 1/2 a dozen I haven't even had time to read (and given that I'm on the Forge more than 9/10s of the active members that says something right there).

This also leads me to ask new posters of ideas to be patient.  We just can't generate 2 dozen deeply inciteful comments for each new idea as we used to be able to when the pace was slower.  To give the best analysis of your new ideas that we can, we need your help.  That help includes following the forum policy guidelines (which could perhaps be expanded upon and reemphasized), taking in good stride the posting of older links.  In all honesty its a huge time saver for us to have you read the older threads rather than retype all of those ideas over again, and ideally it should help newcomers learn some of the collective history of the site (so far everyone seems to be doing this with good cheer...thanks for that).  

So to summarize, I think the answer to "where have all the old guard gone?" is
1) a step or two back to give the new guard the opportunity to step forward.
and ideally
2) we're off enjoying playing and busily designing again where before coming here we were struggling.

Hi there,

I'm happy to let people use this thread to vent a bit, discover one another's spiky edges a bit, and perhaps embarass themselves a bit. It's Site Discussion after all, and a certain amount of "spray" is expected.

What matters is that we continue to listen to one another - and, bluntly, to acknowledge it when someone accurately calls you on something. A couple of claims or reactions have been refuted very well so far, but the originators haven't owned up to it, which is not what a discussion here, even a venting one, is for.

Most of what I'd contribute here has already been said, recently, in this thread: Lots of new folks on the Forge (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3849), and I urge both Matt and Seth to check that one out if they haven't done so already.

I also think that many folks in our hobby tend very consistently to "gloom and doom" at things. It sucks. It's not like it was. Things are falling apart. We're not accomplishing anything.

Look at some of the net gains lately: how much actual play is turning out to be functional and fun? How many really great games have shown up lately, in various stages of development, and demonstrably benefited? (Answer: Lots! If you think otherwise, you're not looking.) What's the proportion among truly acrimonious vicious theory-discussion? (Way down; remember one year ago?) Has that theory-discussion moved to new places, never before discussed? (Yes! The LARP and computer-RPG discussions, for example.)

Matt, I suggest, just as I did with Paul a while ago, that you take a bit of time for self-reflection. You've been absent from the Forge since GenCon. You show up now, you look left & right for a matter of days, and you have a big reaction - and now that reaction is escalating into an anxiety or dissatisfaction.

I think the Forge is doing extremely well, pending what I called for in the thread I linked to above, as well as in the recent Moderators forum thread which you have access to (and I hope you've read). Also, a hell of a lot of discussion is going on behind the scenes about where to go from here, and perhaps, especially as a moderator, you might consider asking me or Clinton about that before assuming it's not happening.

Best,
Ron

Quote from: ClayHere's an idea that might help restore the depth of discussion.

Rgulate the flow of new topics to the Indie Game Design forum. This requires someone (or someones) to act as gatekeepers, deciding which topics get talked about and which don't. This weeds out "not ready for prime time" topics, and the "been there, don that" topics. The obvious drawback is that there's a lot of work involved for someone, and the role is hideously political.  In short, all of the filthy allegations about "X wouldn't let my game be discussed on The Forge" would suddenly become reality.

This, of course, still changes the nature of The Forge. We would in effect accept one problem to alleviate another. It's an idea, though.

Conversely perhaps we could ask the powers that be to *expand* the Forums.

I am reticent to mention the fact but, once upon a time, I ran a BBS.  It was, as was so many BBSes, a local hobby board.  At first I had but a few message bases.  In time, as my user base grew so, too, did the number of message Forums.  (Mostly because new message areas were requested.)  With more people arriving to a Forum the topical arena of discussion increases.

Thus, now correct me if I am wrong, since the lament seems to be *quantity* of posts over *quality* perhaps it is time to suggest an expansion of the Forums?

(I know someone mentioned this earlier on, my apologies for forgeting who.)

Of course if we, the memebers, don't suggest solutions then how can the powers that be do anything about what is percieved as a problem?

So, if I may, what sort of Forums would you like to see if new Forums could be added to The Forge?


Kind Regards.

Quote from: Ron EdwardsI think the Forge is doing extremely well, pending what I called for in the thread I linked to above, as well as in the recent Moderators forum thread which you have access to (and I hope you've read). Also, a hell of a lot of discussion is going on behind the scenes about where to go from here, and perhaps, especially as a moderator, you might consider asking me or Clinton about that before assuming it's not happening.

There is something to be said for reading to an end of a thread before posting.  As Ron says all is well and in hand...

Apologies for the previous post.  Was just a idea.


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

Hi Kester,

It was a good call on your part, though. The funny thing is that we did expand the forums not long ago, into their current two-page arrangement. I like it a lot, as it happens (and it doesn't seem to have marginalized the specialty forums as we feared).

As for a new expansion, I'm not sure. I think a stronger commitment on everyone's part to know and to enforce gently the actual focus for each forum would be my first call. Then I'

Just so everyone knows, I make decisions about these things on a very long-term basis. My current thinking is, "What's the Forge to be like, a year from now?" That's a lot different from the "Pissed now! What's changing tomorrow?" expectations that some folks have been known to bring to Site Discussion.

Best,
Ron

P.S. Yes, I know, the Glossary. It's a really damn hard problem, OK? We are talking about it.

Quote from: Mike Holmes

I post more now than ever. In fact, I daresay I post at least twice what anyone else does. When told that I should not post "been there, done that" posts, I stopped posting to those threads where that was the case entirely, and that was all I had to say. Now I'm bad for not responding? I have an obligation of some sort to write to everyone who posts?

Yeah, you do post very often, Mike. You're probably the single most frequent poster on the Forge outside of Ron. C'mon. You know you're the exception to the rule, and saying so outloud hardly makes my "mountain" a "molehill." Of course, the issue is neither mountain nor molehill. I do think it's worth discussion, obviously -- I wouldn' t have started this otherwise.

Quote from: Mike Holmes
Matt, I wanted to see Dreamspires, and you gave me something else. You knew what I wanted to see. And you're surprised that I am not responding to your new game? Many of the games presented of late are about metaphysics, a subject that I am bored to death of. Am I obligated to respond to these? Sorry, just not interested anymore.

To stress yet again, I regret that my issue with little feedback on Nine Worlds became the catalyst for this thread. Without that non-reaction, would I have started this thread? Probably not. Would my opinion still be much the same. Yes, very much so.

Mike, I hardly think it's a crime to delay Dreamspire a bit. Sorry to have disappointed you. Seriously, man! That's especially true, I think, when one of the as yet unstated goal of Nine Worlds -- a game that will be comparable in scope and publication size to Dust Devils -- is an effort to generate more revenue for the full-scale press version of Dreamspire. So it got pushed back a little. Not too surprising, really. I mean, even if the damn thing was written and laid out, I wouldn't really share with the world until I had the cash to go to print, or at least a format I was sufficiently pleased with. I'm FAR from that point now, I can tell you.

That you aren't interested in Nine Worlds is ok. In one sense, I think several "old schoolers" aren't particularly enamored of that whole metaphysics thang. I know, for example, that Ron has expressed his disinterest in games and media dealing with subjective reality, etc. (Not that the subject is necessarily what's going on in Nine Worlds, but I digress ... )

Quote from: Matt SnyderI truly think you're reacting emotionally to an issue I have yet to contend. I have NOT said at any point that I have a problem with new folks coming to the Forge.

Perhaps not intentionally.  Did I say "perhaps?"  I meant certainly not intentionally.  But when a reader sees remarks such as "The Forge got too big for its britches," or "the damn thing's too noisy," that's saying something the poster perhaps didn't exactly intend.  I don't think I was TOO out of line for raising a bit of a stink.

QuoteSo, this isn't a personal attack, and yet you're "VERY" angry and can't politely articulate how pissed you are? That sounds like speaking out of both sides of you mouth to me. Either you're pissed off or you ain't. I've yet to meet a person who gets pissed and magically doesn't take it personal.

What can I say?  I guess I'm just a magical guy.  :)

Okay, let me turn down the smartass.  I assure you that I'm not taking any of the things said here personally.  I'd have to be pretty thin-skinned to do so.  What I was trying to express was the fact that some moderately offensive things were being said here, in a non-productive and/or counterproductive fashion.  I was pissed, but not from a personal standpoint of someone who is being attacked or insulted.  Rather, I was upset by the negative impact that this thread has already had on the Forge.  Seeing the beginning of a thread say something along the lines of "well I don't expect anybody to respond to this because of what this thread is saying" is basically what prompted my rant.  To put it bluntly, it alarmed me.

I'm a bit calculating when it comes to posting, I guess.  And when I see the need to throw a water baloon into the middle of a something, I won't hesitate.  Since my explosion, this thread has been much more positive, IMO.  That was partially my aim.  The other part was to blow off a bit of steam, but I think everyone caught onto that... :)

So, where does that leave us?  Here's some opinions I'll just throw out for consideration:
- I like it here; there is a lot of cool stuff going on, building on an impressive (and impressively useful) archive.
- Even in the short time I've been here, I've noticed an increase in the number of posts, and ALL of what I've read has been informative, articulate, intelligent conversation.  Have I read all of it?  Well, no.  Of course not.  In my view reading the whole shootin' match is decidedly not the point of a public forum.  Skim, and delve when intrigued.  That approach has served me very well here.  And as the Forge grows, adapting that sort of attitude will probably become more and more necessary.

Whether or not this increase in traffic is bad is, as you say, very subjective.  Anyway, Matt, I'm sorry if you felt I was attacking you personally.  I wasn't.  Just lobbing a water baloon.
Ethan

Hey all

Though it would seem this thread has already been posted out, I thought I would take the opportunity to vent/whine/complain or just plain "doom and gloom" a bit as well. If it doesn't get read, that would feel familiar as well, or at least the perception of it.

As to the old guard/new guard stuff, I am somewhat Old Guard, or at least should have been. I was around when there was a much more focused community here. But it seems most of them actually got their games done, and in many cases published. Which I didn't. Also, most of these people formed relationships that they pursued in other venues as well. Again, I didn't either. And there is always the nothing but crickets response to posts, which I have felt a number of times, even back in the heyday.  (But that ties into the older issue of the Forges alleged anti-sim/rules heavy/gear head focus, something I have seen being recirculated somewhat, like the comment in the post someone made about BESM, or some such.)

So I guess I certainly empathize with Matt, though for my own pathetique reasons and such. As to the new guard, I feel like the guy who didn't graduate on time, everyone else graduated and I am stuck with the juniors and feeling very much out of place. No familiar faces, no shared history, and everyone excited about what I've already done or should have.

Rob

I'm going to avoid the "newbie-bashing" issue and stick to Matt's original concern.

Quote from: Matt SnyderTo me, that forum (and maybe Actual Play) is the single most valuable resource on these forums. And yet, the folks from whom I want to hear are largely absent. The "old guard" just doesn't post as much any more -- myself included. I lurk like crazy there, but many wonderful, creative voices have quieted.

I dunno if I count as "old guard" (I think I'm "second wave" or something), but I've been busy. I covered this in PM recently. I've been sick, I've got a new girlfriend, I have a new Scarred Lands campaign I'm working on, I have stuff to do for a LARP I'm running next month that is due tommorrow, and work has gotten more frenetic as of late.

Expect to see more of me after November, when I plan to get into gear and update both Unsung (http://www.ivanhoeunbound.com/unsung.html) and Faster, Better, Cheaper (http://www.ivanhoeunbound.com/fbc.html), as well as other ideas I may have in mind.

Also, I have been posting somewhat to the Indie Design forum, tho only to those threads that interest me. In many cases, I've been ignored. ;-D

Ron, I really need a clarification on several of the comments you've made in the "We Fear Change!" (a thread title whose irony has apparently eluded several)

First, you said:

Quote from: Ron Edwards
Also, a hell of a lot of discussion is going on behind the scenes about where to go from here, and perhaps, especially as a moderator, you might consider asking me or Clinton about that before assuming it's not happening.

Does that mean to imply that I've committed a political boo-boo by not keeping this discussion private? It certainly seems to be so. Beyond the Moderator forum and your own public postings, I'm privvy to no other "behind the scenes" information.

I do not, for whatever reason (whether it's because I was a relative new comer among the "old guard", or that I'm geographically isolated or whatever), have good private contacts with any of the Forge regulars. Those that I DO have contacts with are those for whom I have performed an extremely cheap and quality graphic design and layout service. Most of those are "can you do this" more than they are "what do you think about this ideas?" or "What are you working on?"

So, that PRECISELY why I'm "complaining" -- because I liked conversing with all these folks who seem to keep their community going privately, but it's one I don't have much access to at all. Neither do many others, especially new folks, who could benefit greatly.

Secondly, you said:

Quote from: Ron Edwards
Just so everyone knows, I make decisions about these things on a very long-term basis. My current thinking is, "What's the Forge to be like, a year from now?" That's a lot different from the "Pissed now! What's changing tomorrow?" expectations that some folks have been known to bring to Site Discussion.

Please tell me that bolded sentence is not a reference to me. Can you say you're not talking about my comments in this thread when posting that in the context of this thread?

You must realize that IF the above comment refers to my post, then the connotation tells me "Ah, silly, young, unwise Matt. You have no way of knowing my greater plan."

Um, yeah. That's true. How the heck would I know unless I got proactive and asked. And yet, that's precisely what I did with this thread. In this thread. I apparently didn't do it right by keeping it behind closed doors ... or something.


Finally, you said:

Quote from: Ron Edwards
Matt, I suggest, just as I did with Paul a while ago, that you take a bit of time for self-reflection. You've been absent from the Forge since GenCon. You show up now, you look left & right for a matter of days, and you have a big reaction - and now that reaction is escalating into an anxiety or dissatisfaction.

Ron, that is just not the case. I was "gone" only because I didn't post. I heralded my so-called return two weeks ago. I remained a intensely frequent lurker during the time of my "absence." I checked out the Forge forums no fewer than three times, if not as many as 20 times in probably every single days since, oh, March. I was not always logged in, in part because I dreaded the "Hey, if you have time to read the Forge, why don't you have time to finish Charnel Gods / Universalis PDF / cartography / whatever."

Now, to be fair, you couldn't really know this. But, to suggest I haven't read or kept up to speed is just incorrect. The problem as I see it with that is that it implies I just didn't pay attention and don't know what I'm talking about. That my "assessment" of posts and activities of late is erroneous, and therefore so is my "rant."

For the third friggin' time -- and I realize appearances to the contrary -- this ISN'T about me whining that I didn't get much reply about my new game. It's something I've been noticing since post-GenCon. To suggest otherwise belittles my point. It says, "Ah, he's just whining that we didn't respond to his pet game ideas in 18 hours or less." No, its that I really think the quality of that forum in particular has suffered, and I've heard comments from others with similar opinions, most of which appear right here in the thread in question.

Additionally, I have spent the last 24 hours (hey, in ain't weeks, but it's something) putting my money where my mouth is, even stepping in the "Firearms and Fantasy" thread when it veered severely off topic. I asked, with the precious little authority I had, to keep things related to game design.

Christ, I'm complaining here that I LIKE the Forge, for cryin' out loud. I'm championing the Forge, not deconstructing it. I'm "complaining" that I want -- among other thigns I've already specifically stated -- you and Clinton to enforce the stated rules a bit more strongly, even given that you've requested more help from moderators. I've been completely forthcoming about accepting change. I've repeated my points to those who misunderstood or even got offended for inappropriate reasons in the thread.

Then you come on here and tell me to cool it and take stock. I'm just dumbfounded. What would have happened had I not posted this thread in the first place? I truly belive this thread was a much-needed wake up call for folks on many fronts, and I'm deeply troubled that you replies at least SEEM to dismiss what I consider to be my own valid points. Can you illuminate.

I take a lot of satisfaction in knowing that at least a lot of good could result from this thread, and that it does so in a way that is available for the COMMUNITY to read about.

Quote from: Ron Edwards
Look at some of the net gains lately: how much actual play is turning out to be functional and fun? How many really great games have shown up lately, in various stages of development, and demonstrably benefited? (Answer: Lots! If you think otherwise, you're not looking.)

I'm not going to say *anything* about the apparent identity crisis going on here... I've been involved with them before in other groups, and they're boring as heck, and generaly a waste of bandwidth, IMO.

I just want to support Ron's point here: Indie-netgaming is more or less a group of Forge regulars. About 10 of the members are active on the list, and some subset of us meets every Monday night on IRC to play an indie game. A different indie game every week. Ten people is a lot! Every week is a lot! Every single one of the games we play would not exist if it weren't for the Forge. Not all of these games are "old guard" games that have been around, either. Sure, we played the Pool and Shadows, but we also played Univesralis. We played Vampiros and Otherkind practicaly as soon as they hit the net.

Actual play is a natural repercussion of good design. If you see fewer people hashing out design theory and more people playing the games, that's a Good Thing (TM). It means the design theory is approaching completion, and that it really works.

Note: So, maybe the theory will never be complete. But it's a lot more complete than it was, say, a year ago when I first started. And way WAY more complete than it was two years ago in the threads I read to catch up on things.

Hi Matt

Here's my deal, or my sensitive spot if you like. I think that anyone who has questions or concerns about "where the Forge is going" would do well to ask me or Clinton. It's really easy. The answer might be, "Um, I dunno," or "What do you want," or it might be "This this and this," depending on the topic. But you will get, no matter what, a behind-the-scenes look at what the plan is. I'm always thinking ahead; during the last "where are we now" blowup, I was renting tables for GenCon; during the one before that, Clinton and I were designing the services like the Resource Library. This information is available for the asking at any time, and if it isn't always satisfying, at least it's better than not knowing.

What gripes me is that people never ask. I get this as a general issue in internet-discourse a lot - "I perceive X ... h'm, or maybe it's X, I dunno ... what'll I do? I'll criticize X really sharply! Then I'll know, based on how he responds." You know, not one person on this Earth has ever asked me, flat-out, what the deal is with specific individuals who dislike me and/or the Forge. If asked, I would have told them. Grr ... anyway, so that's the hot-button that Forge Direction Meltdown posts always kick off for me. My problem, really, not yours.

Except ... you do have access to a forum in which everyone who wields authority at the Forge, in general or in their own forum, can ask or discuss stuff. It's especially well-suited to stuff about "What's the plan for the next six months" or similar; in fact, one of my goals for today was to submit a Moderator thread about that (which has not happened). Of course you didn't "have" to do this. If you wanted to bring it up at the community level, you can. I'm not saying you committed a political boo-boo. I'm saying you didn't use a resource that's available.

No, the bolded sentence you quoted in your post was not referring to you. It was directed to anyone who has not yet processed that on the Forge, a two-day lag in response to one's post, per person, is probably typical and desirable. I also confess to have been thinking specifically about Christoffer (in the interest of disclosure and aggressive-aggressiveness), in reference to the Glossary, which then prompted my uneasy feeling that he really  had been patient, and thus I had an idea and posted my Glossary thread.

Regarding your activity at the Forge: I get your point. OK, so you didn't really disappear, and I'm judging by appearances, so I withdraw the accusation of "show up and spout off."

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Paganini
Actual play is a natural repercussion of good design. If you see fewer people hashing out design theory and more people playing the games, that's a Good Thing (TM). It means the design theory is approaching completion, and that it really works.

HOLD ON! I gotta make a corrective comment here -- this thread, and the bulk of its replies are in regards to the Indie Game Design forum. Here, you suggest that for many folks, _theory_ is nigh complete, or at least not as worthwhile to discuss as it was. Great. But I'm not talking about the RPG Theory or even GNS Issues forums. This thread is about the Indie Game Design forum. The distinction between _theory_ and _design_ just became blurry, and I think that's dangerous in this thread.

My argument made no claim whatsoever regarding the activity or inactivity of posts and responses as they relate to role-playing theory discussions. I'm talking about the profound nitty-gritty, nuts-and-bolts discussion and virtual creative "workshops" that are less and less frequent in Indie Game Design.

I'm concerned that this subtle blurring in that statement between design and theory misrepresents what I'm trying so say here. One possible implication is that we're "done" with theory which might lead to the incorrect assumption that we're "done" with _design_ of games and their publication. This is, of course, bullocks.

I can't say, Paganini, whether you're right or wrong about diminishing theory discussions leading to more actual play (probably?). That's just not at all what I'm interested in this thread.

You've made an extremely fair post, Ron. And, it's gone miles farther than any cooling off period on my part might have at easing my, um, unease.

I guess one of the things I'm getting at here is that the community has become somewhat fragmented and closed off, whether by inactivity or by private discussion. I count many of those in the "old guard" as my colleagues, and yet I have no real channel opened to them. So, like my good ol' mother told me, dust yourself off and do it yourself.

Frankly, had I considered asking you "what's up with the Forge of the future?" I'm not sure I would have felt it proper to approach you privately. Now I know otherwise. I may have posted such in Moderators forum, but I felt since it concerned "newbies" particularly, I'd voice it to everyone, rather than keep them out of the loop.

So, expect a private note soon, because this is of sincere interest to me. It probably not today -- good lord where has the day gone?!? It's time to play Riddle of Stee! Woo Hoo!

Greetings Ron,

Me thinks you might be a bit over worked.

Quote from: Ron EdwardsYou know, not one person on this Earth has ever asked me, flat-out, what the deal is with specific individuals who dislike me and/or the Forge.

Now why on earth would anyone dislike you?

The Forge is a service, a free one at that, and the recent spurt of new members is plain evidence it is growing.  In fact this very thread is merely a *groan* of those very growing pains.

I'd suggest what you need is a hug but, well, you kow, uhm, being a guy, well, er....

Oh, look, the news!!!

(Kester rushes off into the middle distance.)


Kind Regards.

OK Matt, I dig the distinction between theory and design. But I'm not sure I see the problem, exactly. Are you just complaining that the old regulars are less active? I could understand that, but it doesn't seem like a big deal. People come and go. Phases are a fact of life.

But from your posts it doesn't seem like that's all that's botherng you. Are you saying that there aren't very many games being designed in Indie Game Design? In that case, I just don't see it.

We just had Iron Gaming Chef which produced, I think, something like 7 complete games. There's the GGD (Group Game Design) thread which is 6 pages long now. Pale Fire just completed Evil Tales (which we played), I've started this Solo idea. Zak produces a cool game every month or so. There are also a lot of games not directly inhabiting the Indie Game Design forum, but rather are in the forums of their developers. Fang just posted some new Scattershot stuff, for example.

If you're saying that you're not seeing *in depth discussion* of new designs, then you're right. But in that case my point about theory does hold. In depth discussions tend to deal with theory. As the theory nears completion, fewer in depth discussions are required, because relevant points have already been addressed by past discussions. Issues that were problems for past designers have already been covered in great depth. This is why people tend to post links to threads rather than going over the discussions again and again.

I don't see this as a bad thing. For my recent Solo game design thread I searched the forums for back threads and read them. If I'd started more or less at the top with "Is solo gaming an RPG? What solos exist? What makes a solo fun? Can you play a solo narrativist?" etc. I would have been wasting time: those discussions have already taken place. Most likely if I had gone about it in that manner - as opposed to searching the archives - I would have gotten back links to old threads anyway. Rightly so.

If I had an idea about something not covered in those threads, posting about it would likely have generated conversation.

My thread was more of an announcement and "hey, do you think this is cool?" post than anything else. It wasn't a plea for system dissection. It didn't need to be, because the questions I had had already been answered by previous threads. And then some. :)

Greetings Paganini,

How goes your Halloween?

Quote from: PaganiniWe just had Iron Gaming Chef which produced, I think, something like 7 complete games. There's the GGD (Group Game Design) thread which is 6 pages long now. Pale Fire just completed Evil Tales (which we played), I've started this Solo idea. Zak produces a cool game every month or so. There are also a lot of games not directly inhabiting the Indie Game Design forum, but rather are in the forums of their developers. Fang just posted some new Scattershot stuff, for example.

Although I wanted to provide it for Halloween play "Revenge of the Crypt Fiend", a game built around an mechanic idea discussed in the Forums here at The Forge has been all but finished since, oh, two weeks ago?  I just wrote it in a format that doesn't convert well to PDF.

And since I took the time to create images for it, place them within the text (you will learn an appreciation for editors when you try to format your own work) I have become rather obstinate about wanting to find a way to convert it, as is, into something viewable.

Edit: Although I am not sure if I created the images with enough DPI to be properly printable, now that I think about it.  sigh.

But if not for The Forge it probably wouldn't exist.  Also I do believe my initial posting about the mechanics idea moved someone else here to create something for Universalis.  Again, that wouldn't have happened if not for Game Design Forum being here.

I may not personally have a web site up with tons of stuff to view but I can attest to the fact the Game Design forum has been useful, even if it appears that I have nothing to show for it but "Micro Slus" and my first post of miniFRPG based on, and posted to, the thread Pale Fire started about a free rpg for everyone.

And if not for The Forge I'd probably be sitting around watching some terrible censored horror movie on commercial TV while waiting to fill trick or treaters bags full of candy.

Kind Regards.

Quote from: Kester Pelagius
How goes your Halloween?

It goes well. Forge now, Tai Chi in an hour, and orchestra playing tomorrow. Life is good.

How about you? Just think, you could be watching A Charlie Brown Halloween! :)

But yeah, that's exactly what I was getting at.

Now, wait a sec...

Quote from: Ron EdwardsYou know, not one person on this Earth has ever asked me, flat-out, what the deal is with specific individuals who dislike me and/or the Forge.

I will now proceed to bap you upside the head with a conversation we had only last week, that and yell I have too!  There, now you can rid yourself of that personal burr over the issue and feel much better about things.

To Rob and Matt, etc.
Problems "fitting in" or developing that "community?"

Look at me, I'm "Old Guard," I suppose you'd say (been here since before it really went live), and yet I'm out here developing relationships with the "newbies" by simply posting in the forums and having interesting discussions.

That's how you do it on a new site...don't let the fact that you've been here for a while deter you from behaving like you're one of the fresh, new crowd and joining in those discussions.

Quote from: Ron Edwards
What gripes me is that people never ask.

I'm hardly a regular contributor, but I have perused the forge for quite a while, and plan on doing so for the foreseeable.

Recently (last 3-4 months) I've found I haven't been looking at the "detail" as much on the boards – too many posts. It may be that some of the new stuff is not as stimulating as what has gone before. More likely I'm too lazy to go through the multitude of posts. It may even be that a lot of the new comers are coming up to speed with what has been discussed before.

I find myself looking for "names" on the boards – Ron, Clinton, Matt, Jared, Mike, blah, blah. I wanna see what they've got in the pipeline, how they're responding to other posts and what their ideas are – and not just in the context of their own fora.

It's getting harder to find them through the (and I hesitate to use the word) noise. I'm not nodding my head in agreement or shaking it in vehement disagreement as much as I used to.

I'll ask then – or at least suggest - featured articles, columns or one offs might be the way forward, possibly from a newspaper-like front page. Maybe it's too like the old GO. Maybe it requires too much input from the "community elders" and maybe I'm giving Clinton a heart attack as he thinks about the work involved.

It would keep my interest piqued. Dunno what that is worth.....

Alan.

Hi there,

Actually, Alan, having been through all the waves of entrants to the Forge (and three to five such waves at GO before that), I don't see it as "noise" at all. I see it as amazing wealth. What I don't see is the realization that such wealth needs to receive a specific sort of interaction or it will fall away into noise.

Folks, without mentoring and modeling and to willingness to participate, the Forge will fragment and die. Look at the "Lots of folks at the Forge" thread that I referenced before. Bluntly, if you want the site to continue in the way you like, then you have to become ... well, a mentor, and a good role model. That means some effort.

Best,
Ron

Sorry for the point by point. I've been called on two counts - and I guess I'm guilty on at least one of them.

Quote from: Ron Edwards


Actually, Alan, having been through all the waves of entrants to the Forge (and three to five such waves at GO before that), I don't see it as "noise" at all. I see it as amazing wealth. What I don't see is the realization that such wealth needs to receive a specific sort of interaction or it will fall away into noise.

See now, I knew you were gonna say that and, of course, you're right....

Noise is what the Forge strives (and more than mostly succeeds) to reduce and eliminate with well focused, well thought out and well sourced posts. But subjectively, with an increase in the volume of posts (and threads by God!) there is more "noise" for me – it's harder to find what might be good for me. I just can't spend all of this wealth at the moment. Maybe a little bit of a paradigm shift is required in terms of content delivery – that's were I was going with the frequently updated "frontpage" idea.

Quote from: Ron Edwards
Folks, without mentoring and modeling and to willingness to participate, the Forge will fragment and die. Look at the "Lots of folks at the Forge" thread that I referenced before. Bluntly, if you want the site to continue in the way you like, then you have to become ... well, a mentor, and a good role model. That means some effort.

Yeap – guilty. I for one certainly do more taking than giving and it is a point well taken. Ask not what the Forge can do for you and all that. But you did encourage us to ask......


Alan.

Greetings Paganini,

Quote from: Paganini

Quote from: Kester Pelagius
How goes your Halloween?

It goes well. Forge now, Tai Chi in an hour, and orchestra playing tomorrow. Life is good.

Sounds like you had a full evening.  Hope you didn't get tossed around too much at Tai Chi, unless you wanted her too.

Quote from: PaganiniHow about you? Just think, you could be watching A Charlie Brown Halloween! :)

I didn't even tune into the SciFi channel to see Shatner host their little movie marathon thing, it's a good thing, Charlie Brown.

Quote from: PaganiniBut yeah, that's exactly what I was getting at.

Funny thing is, this thread seems to still be going.

But would you say it is "active" or "reactive"?

heh


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

My timing sucks.

Here I am four days into an eight day out of towner with limited Internet time and bandwidth, and this topic comes up.

I certainly see myself as representative of that "middle guard" or "next wave" or whatever you want to call it that's being challenged here to measure up to the kind of interaction with old-timers that I benefited from when I arrived here.

For what it's worth, I saw this coming. Months ago I was reading posts from Ron and Mike and Fang and thinking to myself, "self, you're going to have to learn how to do this." Some know this because they've received occasional "how am I doing in such and such thread" PM queries from me. My hope was to join, though, not replace, the old guard.

The surprising thing -- and here I come to the main point -- is that I joined less than seven months ago. That's quicker than I expected for me and others who joined at around the same time to be asked to step into a more meta role in the discussions. A zig and a zag in the population curve appear to have resulted in relatively few people getting their six-month badges at a time when the rate of new discussion to be involved in has gone up more quickly. I think this is a temporary glitch that time will help fix rather than make worse.

No complaints here or any particular insight either. Just thought it might look strange if I remained silent here. I'll be able to join back in in a few more days.

- Walt