The Forge Archives

Here's a teaser. More images are available on the Studio Ronin site.
http://www.studioronin.com/catalogue2/prints/Print103.htm

Quite the list of Forge luminaries. ;)

We're very much in the prelim. design phase but it's developing into something really cool and weird. Feel free to ask questions but please be aware that I won't be able to answer all of them at the moment.

- J

Edit: Jurgen and Matt, feel free to chime in as well. I don't think Derek Guder haunts the Forge...do ya, Derek? And yes, AFAIK this RPG does qualify as "indie" in the Forge sense of the word.

Death
Dream
Alreadyness?
Fate

How much of the game will be in German, Jared? What does "alreadyness" mean to you?

Paul

cool graphic...might want to spell Matt's name right though ;-)

I have no idea what "alreadyness" means. And damn, didn't even notice Matt's name was spelled wrong.

As for the language, I'm pretty sure that the German edition will be 100% German. Hah.

The RPG will be in English.

- J

Nice teaser.  Here's my question--what do characters do?

Yeah, it's an oldie, but a goodie.  

And I think I can clarify the "already-ness" question.  Although it's hard to make out in the image, there's an umlaut over that "o."  So it's not "alreadyness."  It's "beauty."  Those two little dots make all the difference.

Rich

Quote from: RichNice teaser.  Here's my question--what do characters do?

Yeah, it's an oldie, but a goodie.  

And I think I can clarify the "already-ness" question.  Although it's hard to make out in the image, there's an umlaut over that "o."  So it's not "alreadyness."  It's "beauty."  Those two little dots make all the difference.

Ah, beauty...that makes much more sense, esp. in context.

Anyway, "What do ya do?"

You change the world. And I'm not talking about "you do X and then because of this the world changes a bit..." I mean, you change the world. People live or die because you wished it so.

That's the short version.

Essentially, the characters are wanderers in the classic Mad Max/Shane mold (not surprising as the game's vibe is very post-apocalyptic/western/weird fantasy -- Dust Devils and Sorcerer & Sword will be mentioned, natch). When you encounter stuff, you deal with it...or not. But the Narrativist Premise of the game is, "Do you follow the dream or do you sink into decay?"

Although it's hard to make out in the image, there's an umlaut over that "o."

Ugh. My decrepit monitor at work was clearly not equal to the task. Thanks, Rich.

But the Narrativist Premise of the game is, "Do you follow the dream or do you sink into decay?"

Could be cool. Metabarons, from my skim, seemed to be flirting with a similar Premise with the "can you find a source of honor or will you succumb to the necro-dream" stuff, but I was deterred by the crunchiness of the character sheet. What kind of stuff will we see on the Decay character sheet Jared?

Paul

Quote from: Paul CzegeWhat kind of stuff will we see on the Decay character sheet Jared?

Cool. I'm doing primary game design on this sucker so this is kinda my department. Keep in mind that this is all vaporware at this point.

The character sheet is going to emphasize *character*. No attributes, no skills, no numbered stats to speak of (more or less...definitely not in the traditional sense of stats). Inter-character bonds will be explored and the primary game mechanic deals with metagame stuff and narrative control.

One cool thing: character sheets are divided into two basic areas. The first area NEVER changes. It's completely static. The second area is just the opposite...it's completely dynamic and will change before the game, during the game and after the game (think of it like a perpetual form of character generation and you're not far off...I got the idea from workin' on Black Lipstick).

Another idea we have is to create a unique character sheet tailored to each type of character you can play (there are only three "types" of PC in the game).

Ok, here I am again with the next obvious question:

What are the three types of characters you can play?

Rich Forest

Quote from: RichOk, here I am again with the next obvious question:

What are the three types of characters you can play?

Rich Forest

I'm taking inspiration from Trollbabe (et al) by saying that you can only play specific character types -- so it's not one of these "play anything" games (like, you can't play a cook or a blacksmith).

The three character types are:

Ronin - human wasteland warriors. A bit of a gunslinger/samurai type crossed with Nekro-99 (from the film "Wizards") and Nausicaa from the eponymous Miyazaki/Studio Gihbli anime.

Doll - Zombie prostitutes. Ala the Companions Guild from "Firefly" -- albeit with a necrophilia thing going on.

Ferrant - Big, fuck-off mutant guys.

And when I say "guys," I mean guys. Dolls are always female and Ferrants are always male. One thing we're seriously considering is having a metagame rule where your gender determines what character type you play. Men can be male Ronin or Ferrants. Women can play Dolls or female Ronin.

Quote from: Jared A. SorensenOne thing we're seriously considering is having a metagame rule where your gender determines what character type you play. Men can be male Ronin or Ferrants. Women can play Dolls or female Ronin.

Jared, you seriously need to chill on your cross-gender phobia. Having all Ronin be men and all Dolls be women is fine, whatever. But extending that to the players is just, well, retarded. And yes, I've heard your rationale behind it, but your rationale is really not that rational.

I only say the above because I respect your work and the work of Studio Ronin. To see that second part implemented would cause me to skip the book. Not that you rightly care, but there you have it.

Quote from: Jason L BlairJared, you seriously need to chill on your cross-gender phobia. Having all Ronin be men and all Dolls be women is fine, whatever. But extending that to the players is just, well, retarded. And yes, I've heard your rationale behind it, but your rationale is really not that rational.

I only say the above because I respect your work and the work of Studio Ronin. To see that second part implemented would cause me to skip the book. Not that you rightly care, but there you have it.

Phobia? I wouldn't go that far. But to be fair, you also won't be able to play a hobbit or an elf if you're a human being.

Hey Jared,

One thing we're seriously considering is having a metagame rule where your gender determines what character type you play.

What do you accomplish, from a gameplay standpoint, by having the constraint? I think the important thing to take away from Jason's post is that as a constraint, the mechanic comes across as personal bias, as opposed to facilitating a gameplay design objective. Have you considered applying different reward mechanics to cross-gender play? What about different chargen mechanics?

Paul

Quote from: Paul CzegeWhat do you accomplish, from a gameplay standpoint, by having the constraint? I think the important thing to take away from Jason's post is that as a constraint, the mechanic comes across as personal bias, as opposed to facilitating a gameplay design objective. Have you considered applying different reward mechanics to cross-gender play? What about different chargen mechanics?

Hahaha...okay, here we go for a ride on this train.

If it comes across as a personal bias, it's because y'all know my personal feelings on the subject. But really, the game hinges on a whole yin-yang kind of thing that I really wanted to hammer down in the mechanics. Jason mis-quoted the text, anyway -- human characters have no gender bias. Just the half-breeds. Personally, I think it's interesting to separate the characters on a metagame level.


RANT MODE ON
I DON'T BELIEVE FOR A SECOND THAT "PRETENDING" TO BE SOMEONE IN AN RPG GIVES YOU ANY GREATER INSIGHT INTO THAT CHARACTER.*
RANT MODE OFF

Plus, guys playing sexy zombie prostitutes squicks me the hell out.

Besides, if the most Hated Man in Roleplaying won't buy my game...I figure that's gotta mean something, right?

* Feel free to start a new topic in the *main forums* if you really wanna discuss this.

Plus, guys playing sexy zombie prostitutes squicks me the hell out.

Okay, a 320+ lb, 6'7" male player with a thing for zombies just emailed and told me that with Decay, there's no way in hell he's going to play anything other than a zombie prostitute. Now you gotta help me reign this shit in. A constraint mechanic that's otherwise un-integrated with the rest of the game is too easy for a play group to ignore. How about if the Dolls have a "Crippling Necrosis" score equal to the player's shoe size, something like that?

Paul

Quote from: Jared A. Sorensen
Jason mis-quoted the text, anyway -- human characters have no gender bias. Just the half-breeds.

My bad. It should have read "All Ferrants are male" instead of "All Ronin are male."

Quote from: Jared A. Sorensen
RANT MODE ON
I DON'T BELIEVE FOR A SECOND THAT "PRETENDING" TO BE SOMEONE IN AN RPG GIVES YOU ANY GREATER INSIGHT INTO THAT CHARACTER.*
RANT MODE OFF

Neither do I. Jesus, man, who the fuck is saying that?


The problem comes from this: If your stance was widely held then male novelists' books would only have male characters and female novelists' books would only have female characters. Is that not a fair extension of not only your personal belief but the metagame mechanic you're considering? To me, that's ridiculous.*

I'm not talking about immersion and I'm not talking about getting an understanding. I'm talking about narration and character options. Being restricted to only having male characters in a story because all the players are male is severely untasty. As is the opposite.

Quote from: Jared A. SorensenBesides, if the most Hated Man in Roleplaying won't buy my game...I figure that's gotta mean something, right?

Thanks for reminding me. I need to add that to my business cards.


*I just felt like adding a footnote.

Y'know what, scratch that. I regret baiting you.

Paul

For the record...I like the restriction Jared.
I give bonus points for having the balls to do something heinously politically incorrect regardless of what the rationale is.

Although picturing Jason playing a hot sexy zombie slut is making me feel all warm and fuzzy inside...;-)

Jared, you just took Wizards and Nausicaa in the same sentence.  I'm writng the check right now, you write the game NOW.  

Chris

PS-Go with the gender thing, I'm tired of folks trying to be all artsy and politically correct with their shit.  I look at it the same way when I watch suburb boy try to play gangsta.

Both Ralph and Chris mention "political correctness." What does it have to do with political correctness? I certainly hope you're not suggesting that my argument against it is in any way, shape, or form originating from political correctness.

Nope...not doing it is not necessarily TO be PC.
Nor is doing it necessarily TO be non-PC
But doing it IS, just by being, non-PC...which I applaud.

Personally, I don't get the bother about the gender restriction.  If it doesn't work for me or my group, it's piddlingly easy to ignore, as it strikes me as a purely aesthetic rule on Jared's part.  Skipping the game for this one reason is overreacting, especially if the game itself is up to Jared's usual high standards of creative whackosis.

And let's not inject PC/non-PC judgments, please.  Doing so opens a whole other kettle of irrelevance.  The mere fact the game takes a novel spin on player gender doesn't necessarily bring PC into it.  If you object to the depiction of kinky zombie prostitutes as exclusively female, maybe that's another story, but it's also another issue.

Seems like the only real critique here is whether the gender restriction actually adds anything to the game but color.  It strikes me as an experiment.  Maybe the restrictions encourage a certain territorial development by players according to gender, such that the emergent flavor of the game takes a different direction than it otherwise might.  Maybe approaching it as an experimental option will cool some jets.

Best,

Blake

*Edited to clean up a little text.

Ah, the train of the thread moves onto different rails...

I also think the "PC" thing should be dropped. Mostly because I think "Politically Correct" is an absolutely meaningless term. "PC", "un-PC"...whatever. They both mean sod all.

And I'm going to agree with Jason--if one were prohibited from creating a certain character because of gender, I'd give the game a big ol' skip*. It would make as much sense to me as someone saying, "Josh, you can't play an elf in our D&D game 'cos you're too short--play a hobbit." Or, "You can't play anything but a human, because that's what you are. You're not an elf, so you can't play one." Or, "You can't play a black character, or a Christian, or paraplegic, or a car mechanic." As Jason said, this isn't about getting "greater insight into a character" or immersion, it's about creating a story with an interesting character. Jared, I know you've said that a male playing a female character in any game you're a part of causes a disconnect for you. Well, it doesn't for me. I've had a muscular, full-beared guy who smoked a pipe play a freshman college girl & I completely bought it. I had absolutely no trouble gaming with him & his character.

So...yeah, the game sounds cool, but I really don't like the gender thing.

EDIT: Then again, it's your (or partially your) game, so do what you want.

* I actually have a footnote here: Yes, I bought Trollbabe. Yes, I'm running Trollbabe (for, admittedly, a woman). Yes, I'd play Trollbabe, given the chance. Trollbabe doesn't limit your character type based on gender, it limits everyone's character type. Just as a male has to play a female character, so would a woman who prefers to play male characters have to play a female. That I like. But saying, "No, you can't play a Zombie hooker because you're a guy" I don't like.

From a practical standpoint I find that such rules are, effectively, just a statement by the designer. For example, in many of the German Abstract games, the rule is that the youngest player goes first. This is simply to highlight the potential family nature of such games. In a couple other such games, the rule is that the owner of the game goes first. Which is a blatant and silly attempt to get more than one player in a group to buy the game.

Do these rules ever get used? No, they are easy to replace if they are found to be distasteful in any way. Since the only thing it will take to change this rule is simply to ignore it, that's exactly what players will do. And as such all it can be is a statement on the designers part.

Perhaps a small statement in the text about how you feel would be more informative and effective, Jared. If you give your reasoning, perhaps others of like mind will go along with it. As it stands it seems to me like people may reject it as simple rebellion against what looks to be an attempt to control actual player behavior.

Mike

Yeah, it would be an easily ignored rule. So, let me amend my statement. It wouldn't keep me from buying the game, but I'd throw that particular rule out the window.

I gotta say that I like the gender rule, but as some people seem to have some problems with it, I already proposed to Jared that we could include the metagame gender restriction, but only as a strong suggestion.

That would still keep the statement of the author, but the individual groups could easily ignore it. And Jason would buy one. I want Jason to buy our game.

-----
we are the wanderers
dreaming in a dead world
leaving change in our wake

IMO a rule that says "You may not play this way because I am the author and it squicks me" is pure masturbation.

QuoteAnyway, "What do ya do?"... You change the world. And I'm not talking about "you do X and then because of this the world changes a bit..." I mean, you change the world. People live or die because you wished it so.

That's the short version.

Essentially, the characters are wanderers in the classic Mad Max/Shane mold (not surprising as the game's vibe is very post-apocalyptic/western/weird fantasy -- Dust Devils and Sorcerer & Sword will be mentioned, natch). When you encounter stuff, you deal with it...or not. But the Narrativist Premise of the game is, "Do you follow the dream or do you sink into decay?"

Ah, but tell us more about the setting...What I'm gathering is a sort of LSD-lubricated post-apocalypse morality play plus or minus the morality. Which is cool and all, but still doesn't tell me a damn thing!

In octaNe, the setting was mostly America's trash kulture stuffed into a blender set to frappe...with the lid left off. What parts of the real world are we going to see dribble in to Decay's setting? Is it comedy, horror, sci-fi in general? Is it like Chi-Chian, with worms and insects and weirdness?

Will this game make all of my "women-in-prison" fantasies come true? Is earwax a commodity in the setting? Will owning this game encourage George Bush to label me a terrorist? Do people get to mutate, or have kewl powerz? Do those zombie prostitutes use turpentine to get rid of that "not-quite-fresh" feeling?

I'll keep pestering you with questions until I get some answers...

Quote from: Spooky FanboyWhat I'm gathering is a sort of LSD-lubricated post-apocalypse morality play plus or minus the morality.

Well, that's a pretty nice description =)

QuoteIs it comedy, horror, sci-fi in general? Is it like Chi-Chian, with worms and insects and weirdness?

It will have worms and weirdness. Let me just tell you that Christopher sent us a pic with a creature that is a cross between a dune worm and a tit. Yeah you read that right.
The genre is post-apocalypse, but with a sword-and-sorcery/western feel.

Welcome in the Time of the Great Decay

The world is dead. The ruins of the cities of human civilization are graveyards filled with the skeletons of skyscrapes that are occupied by strange creatures and only a few brittle plants grow in the barren lands, where long lost mythic and mysterious places can be found by the daring wanderer. The animals of old that filled the country with life are long forgotten and the chances of survival of any living thing in the wilds are slim at best. The Necros, once humans, now trapped in decaying bodies between life and death, are now the dominant species, and run or crawl in packs and devour everything that moves they can get hold of. The sea is the only place full of life, as the oceans were the sole remaining shelter when the earth began to die. On its shores, the last remnants of humanity try to get by in keeps and fortified towns where they vegetate in a simple existance of religious fervor, rejecting and battling crusades against the Necros. On the borders of the land, an old, unseen menace awakens again. It is a world in stasis, and humankind is without hopes and dreams, lost in decay.

I AIMed with Jürgen a few days ago and he told me that it will take some time until DECAY will be released... And that drives me nuttttttttts!

So this is for all those involved: Hurry up! Quit your daytime jobs, stop sleeping/eating/watching tv, send your girlfriends/wives/pets to Sibiria... I don't care... But I can't stand waiting for this nicely looking piece of mental and visual entertainement!

Now get going!

;-)

Quote from: Jared A. Sorensen
And when I say "guys," I mean guys. Dolls are always female and Ferrants are always male. One thing we're seriously considering is having a metagame rule where your gender determines what character type you play. Men can be male Ronin or Ferrants. Women can play Dolls or female Ronin.

Well, you can write that rule, but I'll just laugh at you and ignore it.  I really am a 6'3", 230lb., big hairy male thug and I'll play a Doll *just to squick you out*.  I'll seduce all the other PCs, who will be male Ronin and Ferrant characters played by women and gay men, and I'll describe that cold dead-flesh lovin' in detail.  I'm straight, but I ain't narrow-minded.

Jared, STOP for a moment and look at the reactions you're getting here.  At *best*, people will laugh at you as a freak and ignore it.  At *worst*, they'll think you've got major issues, and not buy the game because anyone that screwy isn't going to make a playable game - crazy people only make games like Hybrid, FATAL, Synnibarr, etc.  Nobody's going to play with your rule, except for people who already don't play cross-gender characters.

Actually, I won't bother getting it anyway, since it sounds very much like _Amnesia Moon_ by Jonathan Lethem.  I can already do that with, say, _Call of Cthulhu_ and _Dreamlands_, or with _Kult_.

I did not want to jump on the gender-issue train, but this post by kamikaze somehow forces me to.

We have some sort of strict gender rule in our group as well:
"No guy is allowed to play a female character unless all participants believe he can do so in a reasonable fashion"
Why? Well, because all of us had terrible experiences, where male players used their characters as prostitutes: to gain information, to get out of trouble, to make money, etc. This was very compelling... Imagine you are a guy and want to get a job at company x. The personnel manager is a terribly smelling fat ugly hairy lady with a mustache and your only way to become employed is to go to bed with her... Would you do that? No! When a guy plays a male character and his character ends up in the same situation, most players opt not to do it, because the gender connection is very tight (this really could happen to you or at least you can imagine it). Most players would not even do it if the manager was a young, athletic and very handsome guy... But once the character is female, plopp, sex with everyone vaguely helpful ensues ("Let's send 'Hooker Girl' to collect the info").

What disturbs me more is this "chicks are either Xena-style warriors or plague-bearing sluts" attitude... Maybe someone of the authors (it's not only Jared) has some issues with certain ex-girlfriends and uses writing as a form of coping mechanism/therapy... Hey, some of David Lynch's movies are about disturbed sexuality and he is making millions of dollars with it!
Or maybe it is the renessaince of macho-gaming. Some nerds realized girls (with few exceptions) will never be truly dedicated to gaming, so this is their means of revenge... I mean, think of it this way: They refuse to date with you because the only thing you are good at is as interesting to them as soccer or dragster racing... These guys have a good reason to be frustrated.

On the other hand I can clearly see some problems ahead. Imagine a girl in your group that doesn't want to play a Sigourney rip-off... Her only alternative will be the zombie hooker, not very motivating I think. But at this point it is the duty of all participants to deal with the subject: "Rulebook page X says that you have to!" is not an intelligent way to handle things.
To solve the problem I would handle the gender issue this way: Zombie hookers (what was their name again?) may only be played by guys!!! Why? Well, only guys display the greed and corruption to do the job believeably. Any decent girl (except "professionals") should be compelled by the original rule.

My conclusion?
Reading a book about fascists doesn't make you a nazi, so playing a macho game (like 90% of all computer/console games) doesn't make you a women-hater either.
If you don't like a certain rule, drop it. If you don't like a certain setting, don't buy the book.
I for one am looking forward to this game because of the cool artwork and some crazy ideas... I don't expect the setting to be very innovative (Fallout meets Dreamlands) but the list of participants guarantees some very interesting twists and hooks.

Now stop whining until the baby gets realeased...

Quote from: reptile2k1We have some sort of strict gender rule in our group as well:
"No guy is allowed to play a female character unless all participants believe he can do so in a reasonable fashion"
Why? Well, because all of us had terrible experiences, where male players used their characters as prostitutes: to gain information, to get out of trouble, to make money, etc. This was very compelling...

Despite my not-very-serious comment about seducing the other PCs, I've never seen what you describe.  In 24 years of gaming, not once has someone, male or female, played a female character as a hooker.  I *have* seen both male and female players with both female and male characters use seduction (not necessarily going all the way) to get what they want, though.  It's very common in _Kult_, espionage (modern, historical, and SF), and modern crime genres.

I rarely play fantasy games, so I dunno if those promote different behaviors, but I'd think it's just the players.

QuoteOr maybe it is the renessaince of macho-gaming. Some nerds realized girls (with few exceptions) will never be truly dedicated to gaming, so this is their means of revenge... I mean, think of it this way: They refuse to date with you because the only thing you are good at is as interesting to them as soccer or dragster racing... These guys have a good reason to be frustrated.

My gaming group currently consists of me, one married couple, a gay couple, and 0-3 other women.  Until last year, it was mostly me, maybe 1 other man, and 3-4 women.  This is not unusual at all in my experience.  I just don't play with any of those macho-gaming groups, and I really recommend against them.

Women like gaming as much as men, if they're playing with people who bathe, don't drool at the very thought of being in the same room as a woman, etc.  The guys you describe are frustrated because of their own bad choices.  Nobody should game with them until they clean up their act.

I'm locking this topic and starting a new one when more on DECAY becomes available. Thanks for everyone's comments.