ok... so how would i go about using elemental magic, shielding magic....i think thats the only two i need to know about
i hope people dont think im an idiot, im just trying to get into the magic system, and find out what can and cant be done...
so really what im looking for, is what vagery, or vageries, would you need to use to summon a lightning bolt... if you truely could
Ah...now that's a question I could work with.
I'm not a science whiz, but a lightning bolt is a quick transfer of electrons, yeah? So use movement and vision to force a quick transfer of electrons. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Any of you sorcery bums wanna chime in?
Jake
true... supose something of that nature... see the electrons flowing....might work out cool.... i need to sit down with the vageries and just toss out ideas, back and forth... just to see whats there...
kinda had some fun last night messing around with growth..... making yourself grow double your size..also had some fun with growth 3, composition 3.... especially when i realized that you could disinterate someone......lol
i meant to say disintegrate.....lol
also, i found the two spells of none, and one of them in a lightning bolt... so thats all cool, though it does sound feasible that you could do one the way jake described.... that does open alot of things though, meaning that movement is going to be the basis for shielding spells (as noted in the book, there is a shielding type spell) and likely every other "elemental" kind of effect...
i think that it would take at least level 3 in movement, just to be able to harness the energy fast enough though...
yes vision to see what you were doing, but a fire can start because of friction, and friction is caused by one thing moving against another...so it stands to reason that a fireball could be made using movement, and since you are not doing spells, per se, you are harnessing the natural forces, it throws a different slant on it, since most people are used to how magic works from a D&D standpoint.... then again whats to say that this isnt really what your mage in D&D is thinking...
"must cast fireball, must excite the particles at just the right speed"..... maybe who knows....
i think scientist types, and really creative people, are going to enjoy the hell out of the magic system in TROS.... thats just my opnion on it though...lol, i know i enjoy it
Well, scientist types usually whine about how one can destroy the world with Movement 3.
-Joshua
Please note I love ya you scientist types!
quite true....i guess i mean the scientific type... scientists in most games i have played in usually think of the game in its most basic terms, and try and mess up the game.....lol
Quote from: Jake NorwoodAh...now that's a question I could work with.
I'm not a science whiz, but a lightning bolt is a quick transfer of electrons, yeah? So use movement and vision to force a quick transfer of electrons. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Any of you sorcery bums wanna chime in?
Jake
True, Jake, but you gotta take the electrons from somewhere, cause if you just strip them off some atoms around you, you're creating quite some positive charge, which might make your lightning bolt transform into a boomerang ;) But of course it is possible to limit the spell to thunderstorm conditions, for example, triggering a lightning before it would form naturally and directing it to a specific site of impact.
IMO you guys are all still stuck in D&D mode.
Why bother with lightning bolts or fireballs? This is TROS. You can do much more damage (if that's your thing), much flashier effects (if that's your thing) and much more interesting stuff (which should be your thing) with TROS sorcery than that.
Think outside the square, guys.
Brian.
Quote from: BrianLIMO you guys are all still stuck in D&D mode.
Why bother with lightning bolts or fireballs? This is TROS. You can do much more damage (if that's your thing), much flashier effects (if that's your thing) and much more interesting stuff (which should be your thing) with TROS sorcery than that.
Think outside the square, guys.
Brian.
yes, i know that, however the reason i was asking, if because.... well if you read the initial post, you'd know that i asked what would it take to cast elemental magic, and shielding.. im trying to get into the magic system, and see it for what it truely is, im not wanting D&D spells, im just playing in the deep end of the magic pool
That's kind of my point, prophet.
"Elemental magic" and "shielding magic" are containers that don't really work in TROS, without a major overhaul of the magic system anyway.
What you could do, perhaps... hmm... OK, If you're after specifics, how about this.
There's an order, elementalists say, or druids, or some other group for whom you want specific magic powers only. Members join the group and are given specific powers they can use, druids get specific spells to promote tree growth. elementalists get fireball type spells or maybe a few earth based spells or whatever.
What's really happening? A powerful sorcerer is actually behind the guilds power. He's developed specific spells that the order might like. Members have those spells embedded into them, with conditional activation based on command words or gestures or whatever performed by the person the spell is embedded into. To be able to use these spells, perhaps members have to have fractionally gifted blood, not full sorcerers, but priority D perhaps. That way you can have your specific spells tey can use, but there's a valid TROS mechanic behind it.
Why is the sorcerer doing it? It's possible that altruism is his motive, but I think it's far more likely that the spells are also channelling life energy from the recipient back to the sorcerer, giving him a net benefit. Or maybe there's an additional embedded spell they don't know about, one that means he can channel his spell-caused aging to all of his "vectors". They don't notice because there's so many of them they only age a few hours each every time he should age a month, but over time they may start to notice and question their speeded-up aging.
Hows that?
Brian.
actually there is sheidling magic... and it uses movement to slow down the air, so that you are basically hitting solid air... thats straight out of the sample spells..
as for elemental stuff... well i like the ideas that jake had, and i'll admit that you'd have to be careful...but right before a storm, theres alot of positive and negative charged ions...
plus it mentions a lightning spell in the book, under the spells of none section
Ah, I thought you were trying to containerise magic, so one person would have elemental magic only, and another shielding magic only, that kind of thing.
Still, I think my idea (above) is pretty cool. I must use it in my next campaign.
Brian.
i mean, there technically shouldnt be healing spells... but yet there are....mainly using growth, and conquer..theres at least two mentioned in the book, though one is regrwoth, and is a regeneration spell...
its all in how you combine the vagaries...but by telling someone they cant do whatever they want, you lose the mystical nature that surrounds the magic system from this game.... telling someone they cant, is always bad, because the system and spells are left up to us to determine, meaning that its an open ended kind of thing... if i want to make a fireball, its possible...though it would require a bit more time than casting a fireball in D&D... the gist of it is simple, it can be done... it just takes imagination, and the second you say cant, you should put down the book and stop playing.
the whole premise of this game is using your magic to the best of your ability, not someone elses
Quote from: BrianLAh, I thought you were trying to containerise magic, so one person would have elemental magic only, and another shielding magic only, that kind of thing.
Still, I think my idea (above) is pretty cool. I must use it in my next campaign.
Brian.
nope, just wanted to know various kinds of spells, and how they would go about doing them... simple stuff really
Brian, mind if I appropriate that idea for future use in my games? It is just far too cool to let go. . . *rubs hands together gleefully* Just one thought, how's the sorceror know who has this minor bit of sorcerous power, and therefore who's appropriate for his plans? (sensing life force energy perhaps?... see my comments/questions on Vision in the Sorcerous Limitations thread for what I mean)
But really, that is a truly awesome idea you had.
Lucien
Well, the classic elements are Air, Earth, Fire and Water, and you can handle pretty much all of those with Sculpture, Movement and Growth... Growth in particular is very elemental, as it's the classic Vagary for facilitating rapid, well, growth in crops and ecosystems -- life and nature, in other words. Particularly fine controlled change may also require Vision 2 or 3, so you can see what you're doing.
For weather control, you want to use Sculpture and Movement over wide areas, again possibly combined with Vision to see what you're working with. Given the high CTNs any kind of practical weatherworking is going to run you, it should probably be limited to Rituals/Spells of Many.
A simple Movement 3 applied to the molecules of the air is quite capable of generating either a lightning bolt or a fireball-equivalent plasma burst (plasma is simply superheated gas). In fact, a Plasma Blast could be a very dangerous spell for a comparatively low CTN:
Target: 0 or 1 (depending on whether the Seneschal considers air as "incorporeal" or "inanimate object")
Range: 2 (line of sight; "touch" would get you as badly burned as whatever you're hitting)
Volume: 1-3 (depending on how much area you want to scorch, but a "1" would be all that's necessary to inflict lethal damage to a single target)
Duration: 0
Level: 3 (Movement 3, Acceleration 3)
Final CTN Range: Spell of One, 6 to 9
thus Potential DR: 6 to 9 + casting successes
As for shielding, that would be either Movement (for physical shields as per the Armor of Air spell) or Banishing (for a shield against magic).
Quote from: Lucien BlackBrian, mind if I appropriate that idea for future use in my games? It is just far too cool to let go. . . *rubs hands together gleefully* Just one thought, how's the sorceror know who has this minor bit of sorcerous power, and therefore who's appropriate for his plans? (sensing life force energy perhaps?... see my comments/questions on Vision in the Sorcerous Limitations thread for what I mean)
But really, that is a truly awesome idea you had.
Lucien
Yeah man, go for your life.
I'm picturing applicants who want to join the group are secretly screened using a vision 3 based spell to examine the properties of their blood and see if they "have what it takes" (no reason for the sorcerer to do this, he could invent a screening spell and embed it into the group leader).
Those who are suitable have their magic embued into them in a series of extremely long rituals (so the sorcerer can devote as many dice as possible to resist aging; note that since he's getting so much out of this, he probably has an SA or two devoted to this area so that's even more dice). Strictly under the rules each embedded spell is a one-use, so either group members have to regularly come back to base for a spells top-up or you have to come up with a justification for multi-use embedded spells. Hmm.. actually, I don't like that much, lets stay within the rules and say they're one use only, but the sorcerer embeds several at once, say. Actually, that's good, because it means the group member has to keep coming back for a top up, so you can keep an eye on them, and also refresh the extra spell you added in there secretly (see below). Also, you can charge them in some fashion for the magic, so you have a source of income as well as a goup of willing slaves and age sinks.
As for the extra spell, well, lets see...
T3 (the new group member), R1 (touch), V0 (soul only), D3 (weeks), L3 (Summoning 3, Imprisonment 2, Conquor 3) -2 for formulisation.
So overall, a TN8 ritual that takes 8 hours to cast and is slipped in with the other rituals that embed the spells they can use. Summoning brings forth a portion of the targets spirit, and Imprisonment traps it within the sorcerers own body. Conquer 3 grants Implant 3, Control 3 and Repress 1, causing the target to willingly accept what's going on, and force it to "willingly" accept a portion of the aging that should go to the sorcerers soul every time he casts a spell in the future, but instead is shared around the shards of other souls he has imprisoned within his own soul. Repress 1 makes the target unaware that this is even going on. Finally, should it ever be necessary, Control 3 means that the sorcerer can use the target in any way necessary, as an example or as a soldier or even as a time bomb if he implants another nasty spell. The duration component with summoning 3 means that this spell will last for one week per casting success, at which time the target should be coming in for a "top up" of his other embedded spells anyway.
Or something like that, that's just off the top of my head and needs refinement, but it's pretty close to what I'll be doing, I imagine.
If you have any thoughts, share them.
Brian.
Thoughts:
-have the sorcerer use some brainwashing techniques, with a magical twist... say, each time an age sink/slave casts an embedded spell, it gives him a rush of pleasure, likewise whenever the sorcerer casts a spell and the age sink takes the aging, they feel a similar rush of pleasure ("My Master's power flows through me!")
-theortically, it seems as if the sorcerer could, with a large enough pool of slaves, throw almost all his dice into one spell (were he so inclined) without worrying about using dice to resist aging, since all the aging goes to his followers... he still wouldn't want to do that too often, or he'd age all his followers to death, but for that big climactic battle....
-since he already has a portion of their souls, why let them go when they die? perhaps a contingent spell could be embedded in each follower so that when they die, the soul returns to the sorcerer and reforms as an undead spirit under his command ("There is no release in death for those who break my edicts."..... "Killing my followers does you no good, for they serve me even in death.") Of course, this depends on what sort of abilities the undead have in TROS for usefulness, which I'm not sure of.
-Just to make sure each one returns for spell upkeep in time, Implant an unconcious command to return when the spell's duration is near expiration
I love being evil.
Lucien
i dont agree with the new line of reasoning here... no gm in their right mind would let someones aging be used on someone else....i know its just a nameless npc, but that makes the pc too strong, and screws up game balance... but what do i know, you guys hijacked my thread..lol
Quote from: prophet118i dont agree with the new line of reasoning here... no gm in their right mind would let someones aging be used on someone else....i know its just a nameless npc, but that makes the pc too strong, and screws up game balance... but what do i know, you guys hijacked my thread..lol
I was never talking about letting a PC do those things, it's an evil sorceror thing.
What I
would allow is for a PC to join this interesting group he's heard about where initiation gives you some interesting powers. Blam, instant campaign material as the PC and/or his friends slowly realise something is wrong and they start to investigate.
BTW - I like the rush of power idea, get your slaves addicted to using the magic so you know they'll always come back for more. Easy to do with Conquer 2 as well. And as for undead, well, OBAM has rules for that, and yeah, they would fit nicely in with what we've discussed so far, especially if the sorcerer uses the "special" rule from chapter 7... :-)
Brian.
well the typical problem would be this, "if the evil sorceror can do it, then it is possible, so i want to"...
thats usually the reasoning behind alot of players i have seen... its a two way street, if you let an idea like this in, and only the bad guy can do it, then the players will be slightly peeved im sure... however if you let them do it, it ruins the game
Quote from: prophet118well the typical problem would be this, "if the evil sorceror can do it, then it is possible, so i want to"...
thats usually the reasoning behind alot of players i have seen... its a two way street, if you let an idea like this in, and only the bad guy can do it, then the players will be slightly peeved im sure... however if you let them do it, it ruins the game
Well, it comes down to how you want to roleplay, doesn't it.
If a player wants to spend weeks at a stretch performing day long rituals on innumerable age slaves, keeping and maintaining them, performing the day to day administration of the group, chasing down those who have not been in for their top up, etc, then that's fine - he can sit in a corner and roll dice while everyone else actually roleplays.
Oh yeah, sounds like real fun to me.
Brian.
and in return, i now say, and this villian has time to do villianous deeds when?
what works for the players works for the npcs, you know that...
its a nice double edged sword.
The villain has different priorities than the character, obviously.
He might be quite content to spend his time maintaining this; it brings him immortality, plenty of money, slaves who will (eventually) do anything for their next hit of "pleasure" even though they started off with noble ideals perhaps, and so on. Additionally, he gets a few days off a week to get out and spend his ill-gotten loot and perhaps overthrow a kingdom or two.
Hell, sounds good to me :-)
... but it would be boring to roleplay because there's so much downtime. Good for NPC's, useless for PC's.
Brian.
so the villian, is only a villian in the Dr. Evil sense of the term... in that he is a mastermind, but doesnt actually do much himself...
hate to harp on it... but im sure a player could very well do the same thing, in fact it tends to happen in alot of elder games, in Vampire the Masquerade, the elders ghouls take care of all the work...gets rather boring if you ask me..
however all im saying is simple, dont give your npcs advantages that you wouldnt give your players...
Sigh. This is the last time I will bother replying because you are literally sucking my will to live.
The villain is doing plenty. He's turning people into slaves and drones, projecting his age into them and slowly poisoning their minds.
Why? To make himself rich, immortal and all powerful.
Sounds to me like a perfect villain to track down and destroy.
If this kind of thing is what your players/characters enjoy doing, then all power to them and I pity you. In the groups I play with, characters are about adventuring and being the heroes. Yes, "Shades of grey" heroes occasionally, but there's a conspicuous absense of PC's enslaving scores of people for their own power and greed.
Your group can do whatever it likes, I couldn't care less.
Brian.
you dont have to turn into a jerk over this, i was simply asking questions, isnt that what we are supposed to do?... you have to make sure you cover every angle... sure your players may be the upright outstanding citizens in game.... maybe they are paragons of virtue... but not everyone can be graced with such players, so why not explore questions posed to you, instead of being a jerk about it?...
it makes you sound so much better when you are nice
You're right, I apologise.
I'm at work at the moment, and it's not a good day (and it's not even midday yet. Sigh). You know what it's like.
I even once had a group that has a few players like the ones you describe, but I now choose not to play with people like that, so I can't really advise you as to how to cope with them.
As I said, I occasionally have players playing rogues and cutpurses, but they are usually the more "Robin Hood" or "Mathew Broderick from Ladyhawk" kind of thief. We're not into roleplaying actual evil characters; just don't enjoy it.
I agree with you that what's good for an NPC is good for a character. I guess I'm lucky in that my characters don;t want to do that stuf. And as I said, even if they did it would be bloody boring to roleplay, the player would be rolling a few dice here and there while he casts full day rituals, and watching with envy as the rest of the group actually have fun roleplaying. It's a self-balancing situation.
On top of all that, the player would have to work out how to make the control spell, and if I have decided that the NPC only managed it because he is using the blood of a Hameh* to power the ritual, then the PC is going to have to work that out somehow, and then find out, so he's out of luck :-)
Again, I apologise for my tone.
Brian.
* Actually quite fitting to the situation, since they're formed from the bodies of gifted who died without ever developing sorcery. OBAM again, sorry - I just love making references to it, so shoot me :-)
*Shoots Brian*
Dagnabbit. That bullet couldn't quite make it across the Pacific Ocean. But when I try again, it shall be with a much better gun and a better bullet!
its cool, dont worry about it, i am all about fairness in games... and while i give my players the same advantages as my villians, i general think of combinations, or other terms and abilities that my players do not, then again, with the average player in my group not knowing anything about martial arts, i have a leg up on them there as well (mainly when visualizing combat and how to be effective)
i actually have another group that i play with every other saturday, everyone in that group (except my wife) are martial artists... so its really fun..
i find though that i do have to be careful, in a palladium game i ran, i used a completely innocent technique, and ending up killing one of the players in a single hit, they moaned about that one, because they felt i hadnt given them the same oppurtunities as the bad guy... so later on, i went ahead and ask if anyone wanted to trade in their Hand To Hand fighting skills, for an actual martial arts, which would have likely given them access to that certain technique... they all refused...
so in some ways, they kinda screwed themselves...i learned a valuable lesson though, see i was playing Heroes Unlimited, and i threw in some elements from Ninjas and Superspies, and Mystic China.... well they hated that whole thing, they felt that the bad guy was way out of their league, simply because i used 3 books to create him (race from Heroes, class from mystic china, and martial arts from ninjas...) i will agree that i didnt give them that option, but the character came out worse than they did.. mainly because i didnt give him full bonuses from all 3, i gave him only 1/4 of the bonuses he shoud have had
What I love about the sorcery system is its adaptabilty. The varied ways in which disciplines may be used and combined allows for all forms of magic-users types.
The hedge-witch, who's magic is mostly knowledge of herblore and medicines, would have maybe one level in only one discipline. Thus her spells would be mostly indirect, affecting and enhanciong her potions in someway, or for dealing with spirits and curses perhaps (a la Evil Queen in Snow White).
The typical D&D wizard, who's education is highly formalised and instituionalised, would have knowledge of more disciplines and at level 2 in some cases. They would still require, however, the use of components in many instances in order to achiee spectacular sorcery. Sculpture and movement on a flamable powder, thus causing it to ignite and travel as a fearsome fireball.
The true mage however, the one in possession of most disciplines at high levels, has such awareness of his environment and control over it, that he may evoke any effect purely on the basis of his sorcery. An Uber-fireball conjured into being through might require the ritualised binding of a dozen fire-daemons / sprites / elementals, and raining them down on some hapless city, engulfing the whole thing.
TROS needs a little refining, I reckon, but at its core is a superb tool for translating magic into game-terms. Basically, I ask what the PC wants to do, then we figure out how to make it work.
Take care
thats usually the best way to do it... like in the white wolf game "Mage: The Ascension", the whole casting section starts with "what do you wanna do, do you have the spheres to do it, find out the spheres, find out dice pool, cast"
BrianL wrote:
QuoteBTW - I like the rush of power idea, get your slaves addicted to using the magic so you know they'll always come back for more. Easy to do with Conquer 2 as well. And as for undead, well, OBAM has rules for that, and yeah, they would fit nicely in with what we've discussed so far, especially if the sorcerer uses the "special" rule from chapter 7... :-)
Yea, the addiction is pretty much where I was going with that :). And BTW Brian, all your comments about OBAM are making me actually want to buy the book, spending money I don't have and can't afford (I originally planned to wait a while before getting it, probably after TFOB). So stop it! This temptation is hard to resist. :)
On the debate or whatever about when the villian has time to be a villian (assuming making people in addicts and age dumps isn't villianous enough), that's what lackeys are for. I guess I assumed from the start it would be a mastermind/manipulator type anyway.
And as for PCs doing this... well, there is of course the point of figuring out how, but also, if what's good for the goose is good for the gander (cliche alert), well, send some heroes after the PCs. Just let the player know beforehand that this is a possibility, so he doesn't feel you screwed him unfairly when you do.
Oh, and about the lackeys: assuming they're basically good people, if they didn't know what they were getting into at first, but now are having a hard time fighting the addiction, what's the right thing to do as the hero? do they really deserve to die? If they try killing you (looking guilty and ashamed as they do), do you kill them, or search for another option? Just an example of potential moral dilemmas involved in the entire scenario.
Lucien
Quote from: Lucien BlackYea, the addiction is pretty much where I was going with that :). And BTW Brian, all your comments about OBAM are making me actually want to buy the book, spending money I don't have and can't afford (I originally planned to wait a while before getting it, probably after TFOB). So stop it! This temptation is hard to resist. :)
Oh, and about the lackeys: assuming they're basically good people, if they didn't know what they were getting into at first, but now are having a hard time fighting the addiction, what's the right thing to do as the hero? do they really deserve to die? If they try killing you (looking guilty and ashamed as they do), do you kill them, or search for another option? Just an example of potential moral dilemmas involved in the entire scenario.
It's funny you should say that, because there's this part in OBAM where...
Sorry, couldn't resist :-)
Yeah, the good old staple moral dilemma. Obviously they're not really bad people, they don't want to be killing me. Do I go for knockout or debilitating blows, safer for them but far more dangerous for me, or do I let self preservation get in the way of what's right? Hmm.. good opportunity for SA use if you have Conscience I guess.
I'm liking this a lot, it will certainly be an important part of my next campaign.
Brian.
Quote from: prophet118ok... so how would i go about using elemental magic, shielding magic....i think thats the only two i need to know about
Er, this may be a huge simplification...
Couldn't you define a spell per the rules given, but create "styles" of magic that function kind of like SAs? A "druid" for example, could receive a bonus to their SP of 1-5 dice, so long as they were "nature" oriented spells. This could be balanced by a sorcerous flaw that penalizes their SP when casting "non-natural" spells, or even prohibits them entirely.
The mechanics that define the spell, establish the TN and aging cost would remain exactly the same. And so long as the character remained within their defined realm, they still have enormous room to improvise. The druid described above can do a hell of a lot more than any druid in D&D...
Philip
QuoteIt's funny you should say that, because there's this part in OBAM where...
Sorry, couldn't resist :-)
Grrrrr.......
QuoteYeah, the good old staple moral dilemma. Obviously they're not really bad people, they don't want to be killing me. Do I go for knockout or debilitating blows, safer for them but far more dangerous for me, or do I let self preservation get in the way of what's right? Hmm.. good opportunity for SA use if you have Conscience I guess.
And if it happens to be a friend of yours (NPC or PC).... now you really have issues. If the sorcerer has gone really heavy into cult tactics of brainwashing, then the friend may not WANT to leave, or may be afraid to, or may want to, but not want to at the same time, or may deny that the sorcerer is evil, ignoring evidence to the contrary.... excellent RP opportunity if it's a PC who's been sucked in. Done right, there should be lots of opportunity for SA use, regardless of the whether it's Conscience, Passion ("loyalty to friends" or something), or Drive.
Personally, I have no intention of mentioning this concept to the other Seneschals around here.
I want to run this idea! ;)
Lucien
Quote from: Lucien BlackQuoteIt's funny you should say that, because there's this part in OBAM where...
Sorry, couldn't resist :-)
Grrrrr.......
It's like shooting fish in a barrel.
Heh, after all this hype I hope you actually *like* OBAM, otherwise I'm going to look really stupid :-)
Quote from: Lucien BlackAnd if it happens to be a friend of yours (NPC or PC).... now you really have issues. If the sorcerer has gone really heavy into cult tactics of brainwashing, then the friend may not WANT to leave, or may be afraid to, or may want to, but not want to at the same time, or may deny that the sorcerer is evil, ignoring evidence to the contrary.... excellent RP opportunity if it's a PC who's been sucked in. Done right, there should be lots of opportunity for SA use, regardless of the whether it's Conscience, Passion ("loyalty to friends" or something), or Drive.
Personally, I have no intention of mentioning this concept to the other Seneschals around here. I want to run this idea! ;)
Yup, all good thoughts. That's one cool advantage of TROS magic over more static systems like D&D et al, any concept you can think of you can translate into the magic system, and pretty easily. Try doing "addictive cultisim featuring transerred magical energy with soul stealing and indenture" in D&D :-)
Brian.
Quote from: spunkyQuote from: prophet118ok... so how would i go about using elemental magic, shielding magic....i think thats the only two i need to know about
Er, this may be a huge simplification...
Couldn't you define a spell per the rules given, but create "styles" of magic that function kind of like SAs? A "druid" for example, could receive a bonus to their SP of 1-5 dice, so long as they were "nature" oriented spells. This could be balanced by a sorcerous flaw that penalizes their SP when casting "non-natural" spells, or even prohibits them entirely.
The mechanics that define the spell, establish the TN and aging cost would remain exactly the same. And so long as the character remained within their defined realm, they still have enormous room to improvise. The druid described above can do a hell of a lot more than any druid in D&D...
Philip
well like i said, im not really looking to create schools of magic, ya know?, the thread is about different kinds of magic...spells if you would... like casting a fireball, or casting an armor spell, or casting other things... the book gives us some examples, but i wanted to know what people thought about the vageries, and some things they have made... surely they have made spells..
basically i need to know what people think is feasible
Quote from: prophet118well like i said, im not really looking to create schools of magic, ya know?, the thread is about different kinds of magic...spells if you would... like casting a fireball, or casting an armor spell, or casting other things... the book gives us some examples, but i wanted to know what people thought about the vageries, and some things they have made... surely they have made spells..
basically i need to know what people think is feasible
I think you can do pretty much damn near anything, like transforming a victim's blood to molten lead (T3/R2/V2/D0/Sculpture3, Vision 3), TN11; victim saves as Smite [p. 135] or dies instantly in agony; source U.K. LeGuin).
One of the things sorcerers did in RuneQuest (the Avolon Hill ed, which has variable spells), is maintain armor spells indefinitely (meaning when the old spell expires, stop what you're doing and cat the new one). In TROS, that means any time you run into a sorcerer, they're protected by at least 8pts of armor, if not more. And a well armored sorcerer may have the time to cast more powerful spells, forgoing defensive actions and trusting to their armor to buy them time.
Not a new spell, but certainly a different use from traditional (D&D) rpgs...
P
Quote from: spunky
I think you can do pretty much damn near anything, like transforming a victim's blood to molten lead (T3/R2/V2/D0/Sculpture3, Vision 3), TN11; victim saves as Smite [p. 135] or dies instantly in agony; source U.K. LeGuin).
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Hm. I don't know if I'd allow that in my game. Sculpture wouldn't seem to be able to alter the temperature of a substance. Altering something's elemental nature....eh. Maybe.
Seems like you'd need at least a Movement component to heat it up (if you actually wanted it MOLTEN...)
Quote from: Bob RichterQuote from: spunky
I think you can do pretty much damn near anything, like transforming a victim's blood to molten lead (T3/R2/V2/D0/Sculpture3, Vision 3), TN11; victim saves as Smite [p. 135] or dies instantly in agony; source U.K. LeGuin).
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Hm. I don't know if I'd allow that in my game. Sculpture wouldn't seem to be able to alter the temperature of a substance. Altering something's elemental nature....eh. Maybe.
Seems like you'd need at least a Movement component to heat it up (if you actually wanted it MOLTEN...)
Quite true... I'm looking at Smite as the model for an "instant death spell" at TN 12. Blood to Molten Lead has a lower Volume, but adding the Movement vagary would raise the TN back to 12. Of course, you could drop the TN by 1 by making it a "touch" spell.
As far as game balance, even when formalized, the spell takes 5 rounds to cast (4 using Touch range, but then you have to hit your target). Unless the Sorcerer has some serious protection, odds are he/she won't get the spell off, and there's still the target's SA saving roll...
Of course, I've always been of the mind that, if a player's action is going to completely screw up my story, as GM I'll find a way to make sure that it doesn't happen. That's why they make GM screens... ;)
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QuoteOf course, I've always been of the mind that, if a player's action is going to completely screw up my story, as GM I'll find a way to make sure that it doesn't happen.
Don't think I'm misinterpereting you, but there is some flaw with this in TROS standards. It's as much that player's story as yours. Now, if you're talking about a munchkin that's out to screw everyone...that's one thing. But if it's because you and the player disagree on where the story could/should go, then there's another, more crucial, issue at stake.
Jake
Quote from: Bob RichterQuote from: spunky
I think you can do pretty much damn near anything, like transforming a victim's blood to molten lead (T3/R2/V2/D0/Sculpture3, Vision 3), TN11; victim saves as Smite [p. 135] or dies instantly in agony; source U.K. LeGuin).
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Hm. I don't know if I'd allow that in my game. Sculpture wouldn't seem to be able to alter the temperature of a substance. Altering something's elemental nature....eh. Maybe.
Seems like you'd need at least a Movement component to heat it up (if you actually wanted it MOLTEN...)
well molton or not, have lead for blood would suck.....lol... it may be more realitic to say iron though, since we are a carbon based life form, with a certain amount of iron in our blood to begin with..i dont know how much lead we have..lol, though i know its not supposed to be good for us
i like the example that spunky gave though, it lets me know that people are thinking, and getting into the system, which is always good... as a side note, my friday mage game may either change to using the TROS rules base, or i'll switch everything over to it... better blanced sorcery system, and the vageries kick more ass than the spheres any day..lol
Quote from: spunky
Of course, I've always been of the mind that, if a player's action is going to completely screw up my story, as GM I'll find a way to make sure that it doesn't happen. That's why they make GM screens... ;)
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be careful there... the very nature of TROS is a screwy thing, besides sorcerors seem to have been designed with the forthought of possibly screwing up games... what do you do when your very well laid plan goes completely wrong when the sorceror teleports in, assassinates the bad guy, and splits.... well ya go with it..lol
"the best laid plans of mice and men"
basically the best plan isnt usually going to work, so it something drastic happens, go with it, it gives the bad guys a reason to hunt the pc down... not that they needed a valid reason innitially...lol
Quote from: spunkyQuote from: Bob RichterQuote from: spunky
I think you can do pretty much damn near anything, like transforming a victim's blood to molten lead (T3/R2/V2/D0/Sculpture3, Vision 3), TN11; victim saves as Smite [p. 135] or dies instantly in agony; source U.K. LeGuin).
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Hm. I don't know if I'd allow that in my game. Sculpture wouldn't seem to be able to alter the temperature of a substance. Altering something's elemental nature....eh. Maybe.
Seems like you'd need at least a Movement component to heat it up (if you actually wanted it MOLTEN...)
Quite true... I'm looking at Smite as the model for an "instant death spell" at TN 12. Blood to Molten Lead has a lower Volume, but adding the Movement vagary would raise the TN back to 12. Of course, you could drop the TN by 1 by making it a "touch" spell.
As far as game balance, even when formalized, the spell takes 5 rounds to cast (4 using Touch range, but then you have to hit your target). Unless the Sorcerer has some serious protection, odds are he/she won't get the spell off, and there's still the target's SA saving roll...
Of course, I've always been of the mind that, if a player's action is going to completely screw up my story, as GM I'll find a way to make sure that it doesn't happen. That's why they make GM screens... ;)
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I don't care about game balance. I'm mostly interested in the mechanics of spellcasting and whether or not Sculpture can have effects on the subatomic level. :)
Yes, turning your enemy's blood to lead will kill him (and rather gruesomely at that.) Then again, so would merely bringing it to a boil. :)
quite true, biology tells us that any time something (in the human body) is denatured, it changes shape, thus losing function in the body...
one of the methods of denaturing is by heating things...
on a side note... if this system is as open as i think... why do something flashy... just use vision, along with movement... speedup/slow down someones heart...or just stop it..
the stuff we could get into would be fairly brutal.... getting into the summoning vagery... well could you summon a demon to appear inside someone?... kinda like using them as a host..... i suppose if the ritual needed it...lol
i think sculpture could work on the subatomic level, but you would obviously need a high level of vision, just to see what you are doing, and since this might last a while (cast wise) i think you have to use summoning... though im not sure..im kinda iffy as to wehn you need to use summoning, and when you dont.... i think instantaneous spells dont need it, like pain style spells... instant effect, bang it hurts... though you could use summoning to extend its duration to weeks or months i suppose...
someone correct me if im wrong here
Quote from: Bob RichterI don't care about game balance. I'm mostly interested in the mechanics of spellcasting and whether or not Sculpture can have effects on the subatomic level. :)
Yes, turning your enemy's blood to lead will kill him (and rather gruesomely at that.) Then again, so would merely bringing it to a boil. :)
I guess, if you want to be accurate scientifically, all you need is Vision 3 (to see sub-atomic particles) and Movement 3 (to arrange them in whatever configuration you desire), and then you could do pretty much anything, like Dr. Manhattan (WATCHMEN).
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Quote from: Jake NorwoodQuoteOf course, I've always been of the mind that, if a player's action is going to completely screw up my story, as GM I'll find a way to make sure that it doesn't happen.
Don't think I'm misinterpereting you, but there is some flaw with this in TROS standards. It's as much that player's story as yours. Now, if you're talking about a munchkin that's out to screw everyone...that's one thing. But if it's because you and the player disagree on where the story could/should go, then there's another, more crucial, issue at stake.
Jake
Not really. When you play TROS, you sit down with the players and, as characters are created, make sure that they create SAs that are in line with your story; the GM story being the "A" plot, if you will, or the overall arc of the campaign. If through the course of their actions, they create "B" plots to explore, and I want to take them there, great. But ultimately, my responsibility as GM is, 1) are we having fun, and 2) what will make the best story.
If a player wants to go in a different direction, they're free to go there -- via PBEM, or by writing a blurb on what they think should happen. But when everybody sits down to play, I'm going to run the story that's most interesting for all the players, and as GM, I'm the final arbiter of what that is. Hopefully, since we drew up characters together, we're on the same page; if not, well, role-players have never been the type to hold back criticism...
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Hello Spunky,
That's very interesting, but I think you'll hit the cliff wall like Wile E. Coyote if you play TROS in that fashion. It might be more helpful to consider "A," the story-arc, to be under construction by everyone at the table, with the GM and players both contributing to it in different ways.
Best,
Ron
Spunky--
I'm not saying that you're playing "wrong." If you and yours are having a good time, then there is no "wrong." However, the way the game is intended actually works more like this:
Step 1: Players create SAs together, with a little bit of guidance from the Seneschal so that he feels comfortable with the SAs and relationships at the table, and feels that he can work with them.
Step 2: The Seneschal creates the game based on the players SAs, prepared with the fact that nothing he created is really all that "sacred," and that players actions can change anything (with magic like it is, for example, it's hard to have an uber-villian when you can just melt his head), or they can change their SAs at almost any time (though they should talk it over with the Seneschal first, in case any of his immediate upcoming events would be horribly disturbed...it's really sort of a "talk it over" kind of thing).
Step 3: The players are even more enamored with the story and the game *because* their input means more than it ever has. The Seneschal, meanwhile, gets to enjoy the process of reacting to the players' decisions and trying to help the often chaotic actions of players become something beautiful...kinda like sculpting clay that moves a little on its own.
That's how it was intended, that's what I meant, and that's really how the game is written. *However,* if your group is enjoying what you do, then it isn't wrong...it's just a little different than what I wrote.
I would suggest giving "my way" a shot--you may be pleasantly suprised. And change is fun.
Happy gaming,
Jake
Actually, my group's biggest complaint about the campaigns we've played in the past is that they never end. Our current game has a definite arc, and while the characters have plenty of room to maneuver, I do know where they are going, and ultimately, how the campaign will end. They have tremendous leeway as far as which road they travel, but the destination is fixed. Which is just like life.
That said, I'd be interested to see if the group would respond to the idea of playing TROS as you both described, with a "rotating" GM so that everyone gets to play, and letting a collective story unfold.
[We did this once before with D&D. The campaign was called "Bastards" and only evil characters were allowed. It became PARANOIA with swords and was an absolute ball, but the story was not its strongest suit.] :)
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Actually, it seems that stories played as described above come to a climax much faster (and less forced) than long-arc campaigns. I love running both, but lifestyle has pretty much eternally made me a runner of 3-6 game stories. I am working on a bigger one, though...and planning as I go.
Jake