Anyone else ever notice how crazy this is?
I toss a 2-die probing attack.
My opponent tosses a 10-die defensive grapple.
He wins, of course, and puts me down hard, bruising me badly.
Ow. That sucked.
Better think twice about those 2-die probing attacks, then...
::grins wickedly::
Jake
Eactly. Many of the maneuvers are supposed to be used when you can get a massive margin of success, and a 2-dice attack in the beginning of a round is an excellent opportunity.
Think about it this way. What is the point of a probing attack.? check out your opponents defenses, trick them into attacking you etc. Now within the context of the rules I would say that that sounds like an aggresive stance, makes your opponent think your going to attack, then you throw a white die hanging back. Remember a charge is just an aggresive stance that last an entire round. If your opponent falls for it you can opt not to defend but attack right back with a block and strike or maybe stealing the init and going first. I havent seen anything anywhere that says just cause you throw the white init die you can't opt not to defend but attack.
Once CP die are thrown all bets are off...it's life or death now buddy..No time for weak, read 2 dice, attacks i wanna survive this fight and the way to do that is to kill/maim/beat you!
That's one of the things I love about this game. Seeing the players screw their faces when the hard life and death decisions are on the line. The sigh of relief when they survive or the look of anguish when its hit the fan. It's moments like these that make roleplaying worth while. My compliments to all involved in producing this game and I hope everyone else out there is enjoying this as much as my players and myself..(sorry that turned into a bit of a rant but what can I say....This game rocks..
Aaron-
You hit it (for me) on the head exactly.
Jake
Quote from: Jake NorwoodBetter think twice about those 2-die probing attacks, then...
::grins wickedly::
Jake
My problem is: Defensive Grappling amounts to a combination of attack and defense (with a very good ATN/DTN) THAT THERE IS NO DEFENSE AGAINST.
You can't defend against a Defensive Grapple. So you go anything less than all-out (since maybe you want a few dice left for a defense.) He goes all-out. (since this IS his defense) You go flying or get smashed.
I rather thought unarmed folks were supposed to be at a DISadvantage against folks with swords.
You are remembering to factor in the range disadvantages and the risks of screwing your grapple up, right?
Jake
About Defensive Grappling and range penalties:
"When the shorter weapon is out of range this penalty only applies to attacks" (p 78). It definitely seems that Defensive Grapples should be an exception to this rule of thumb!
Yeah the weapon length doesn't help against grappling...But I still think it comes down to the initial 2 dice attack..If you worried about defence then pass initiative to your opponent and make him come to you.. If your going to attack put 6-7+ dice into it..Lets see how eager your grappler is to spend the 1-2 activation cost then put a couple of more dice into his parry than you've attacked with..Doesn't leave him much..Even if he succeeds its only strength plus one, I dont recall seeing that the extra success means extra damage....But maybe I've got that one wrong..Anyone want to clarify?
Even if the throw suceeds the grappler wont have enough dice left to take advantage so you just stand up..
If you attack anyone with two dice I think your asking for trouble. Even if its not a defensive grapple that hits you its and expulsion or maybe even forgoing defensive and attacking right back..
I know I would and I'd bet Conan would goin me!!
Quote from: AaronYeah the weapon length doesn't help against grappling...But I still think it comes down to the initial 2 dice attack..If you worried about defence then pass initiative to your opponent and make him come to you.. If your going to attack put 6-7+ dice into it..Lets see how eager your grappler is to spend the 1-2 activation cost then put a couple of more dice into his parry than you've attacked with..Doesn't leave him much..Even if he succeeds its only strength plus one, I dont recall seeing that the extra success means extra damage....But maybe I've got that one wrong..Anyone want to clarify?
Even if the throw suceeds the grappler wont have enough dice left to take advantage so you just stand up..
If you attack anyone with two dice I think your asking for trouble. Even if its not a defensive grapple that hits you its and expulsion or maybe even forgoing defensive and attacking right back..
I know I would and I'd bet Conan would goin me!!
Each success does indeed add to the damage of the attack.
Otherwise, damage would be surprisingly nonvariable in tRoS.
The two-die attack was a possible setup for a feint, in an attempt to make him overcommit a defense, while keeping a sizeable defensive reserve. Unfortunately, there's no such thing as a defense against Defensive Grappling.
Jake: there's a penalty for Reach in Defensive Grappling? Somehow the rules didn't quite make that clear to me. Doubt it would have mattered. 8 to 2 is still a pretty sick margin.
Um...get back to you on that. My gut instinct is, "there should be."
Jake
I certainly always play with a range penalty for defensive grappling. After all, what you're really doing is launching an attack as your defense, right?
Brian.
2-die "probing" attacks are lame in the game just as they are in real life. If you punch a brawler that lamely, chances are that he'll break your arm. If you strike a swordfighter with a sword that badly, he may not even bother to block it.
If I were fighting an unarmed man with a sword IRL, I would take lots of strong, fast cuts and give him no room to close in.
[quote="Bob Richter
Each success does indeed add to the damage of the attack.
Otherwise, damage would be surprisingly nonvariable in tRoS.
[/quote]
I know the extra success do normally add to the damage, I was refering to the defensive grapple specifically. As per a normal parry once you have at least one more success than the attacker the extra success do nothing. I would have assumed that the defensive grapple and put down would be along the same lines.
Hm. I was curious about why the feinting guy didn't just follow through with the feint, then I realized that defensive grapple to throw acts as a defense as well as allowing the defender to damage their opponent... This strikes me as slightly wrong.
Perhaps a few things added would balance it out so it seems a bit more realistic..
~ The range penalty applied to defensive grappling, and
~If the defender fails to defend successfully (ie, less successes than the attacker) against an armed opponent, their successes do not count toward damage reduction. That way, it's an all or nothing gamble. Basically, if I, as defender, fail to trap, throw or pin you, then I will get nailed full force with your weapon.
What the addition of those two would do in the aforementioned situation.. I am assuming that they were both max CP of 10. I am also assuming that the attacker is using cut and thrust, which has no additional cost to feinting, so it's only the doubled cost to add dice.
Attacker: I'm attacking for X zone with 2 dice.
Defender: I'm defending, all 10 dice, with a defensive grapple to throw.
Seneschal: don't forget the two-die range penalty.
Defender: Crap. All 8 dice, then.
Attacker: Declaring a feint-and-thrust, throwing the rest of my 8 dice in, so that's an additional 4 dice, for a thrust to the head with 6 dice.
Seneschal: Okay, defending with 8, attacking with 6.. Throw dice.
Now, if the defender wins, the attacker is put down, but not likely nearly as hard as if he'd not followed through with the feint. If the attacker wins, then the defender is hit with all of the attacker's successes, with none of his counting to reduce damage.. Something for the defender to think about when committing to a defensive grapple against a deceptively weak attack.
Quote from: Lyrax2-die "probing" attacks are lame in the game just as they are in real life. If you punch a brawler that lamely, chances are that he'll break your arm. If you strike a swordfighter with a sword that badly, he may not even bother to block it.
If I were fighting an unarmed man with a sword IRL, I would take lots of strong, fast cuts and give him no room to close in.
You'd wear yourself out pretty quickly that way, as he consistently full evaded and waited for you to wear yourself out with your wild swings.
Consider. You have to save SOMETHING for defense on the second exchange. If he gets in an unarmed hit on you, you might as well throw in the towel then and there: he's under your reach and you're about to take a beating.
As to weak attacks being lame: yes. They will never hit anything or cause any damage. As a matter of fact, they are not intended to. Rather, they are used as a lure to get your opponent to overcommit to his defense.
Break my arm? I'm sure he'll have an easy time with that as I follow up by throwing him over my shoulder.
Not block? Then he's a fool. I just slit his throat with a feint.
I didn't say "wild." I said strong and quick. That means spending a fair amount of CP dice, not just one or two. And he'd find that fully evading (i.e. running away) would wear him out at least as quickly as swinging a sword.
If he gets an unarmed hit on me, then I'll drop my sword and deck him in the face. However, I'd much rather just kill him when he's at range.
The 2-die attack is just begging for a disarm, grapple, or block open and strike unless it's a feint (in which case it isn't a wimpy 2-die attack anymore, is it?)
Quote from: LyraxThe 2-die attack is just begging for a disarm, grapple, or block open and strike unless it's a feint (in which case it isn't a wimpy 2-die attack anymore, is it?)
Against a ten-die Defensive Grapple, it might as well be. Every point by which he succeeds is a level of damage YOU ACTUALLY TAKE. Even a single success in his margin leaves you flat on your back.
Defensive Grappling REALLY sucks.
I like some of the variant rules here presented, though.
You know, thinking about it, there are good times to do a feint, and bad times to do a feint.. On the second exchange of a round is, in my opinion, a bad time to do a feint. The defender will be using all he's got to defend on the second round, and if you undercommit, he's still going to use it all, and do so in a manner that can hurt you, if he's able. A feint is best used on the first exchange of a combat, where you can get your opponent to undercommit, hoping to save dice. Admittedly, it means burning your dicepool while leaving him the rest of his, but the point of a feint is to hurt them unexpectedly, so they don't get to use all of that leftover dicepool, if any of it. It's the risk you take when you do a feint that they will not undercommit. When they don't, it usually really sucks for you.
Quote from: WolfenYou know, thinking about it, there are good times to do a feint, and bad times to do a feint.. On the second exchange of a round is, in my opinion, a bad time to do a feint. The defender will be using all he's got to defend on the second round, and if you undercommit, he's still going to use it all, and do so in a manner that can hurt you, if he's able. A feint is best used on the first exchange of a combat, where you can get your opponent to undercommit, hoping to save dice. Admittedly, it means burning your dicepool while leaving him the rest of his, but the point of a feint is to hurt them unexpectedly, so they don't get to use all of that leftover dicepool, if any of it. It's the risk you take when you do a feint that they will not undercommit. When they don't, it usually really sucks for you.
Actually, it usually doesn't. It usually really sucks for them, because it means they overcommitted to the feint YOU DIDN'T THROW.
But the Defensive Grapple carries back immediately into an attack that YOU CANNOT DEFEND AGAINST. It is the only maneuver that does so.
One way of handling probing attacks involves having the players declare their moves before dice assigned (is it like this in the book?).
EG. Fighters A & B role init.
A rolls red, white rolls white.
Red (A) declares thrust with rapier, white (B) declares block.
They then declare dice used. 2-8 would be fine as a succesful block doesn't grant any advantage in the next round except init (at a loss of lots of dice). White would have been wiser to commit only 3-5 maybe, just like a probing attack would be dealt with, I imagine.
But had fighter B declared a defensive grapple instead, then fighter A would have foolish indeed to commit only 2 dice - knowing the consequences of getting succesfully grappled. He would be wiser not using a probing attack against an enemy rushing at him, arms reaching. You spit THAT bastard proper.
This process gives players even more strategy to play with - trying to second-guess the ferocity of an incoming blow and how to deal with it.
Did that make sense or was it too waffly? Oh Dear...