The Forge Archives

Around October I proposed the Indie RPG Awards:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3774
(please direct any comments or questions on the methodology of awarding people, how the award nomination/giving process will run, etc to that thread)

Everything is coming together, and I plan to have the site and process ready to begin with nominations by early/mid February.

Thing is, I'm about to embark on the page, and I'm a little stuck on a theme.  Right now, I've got a couple ideas. If anyone else has any ideas for cool themes, please drop me a line on this thread or by email/PM.

In ANY case, each "theme" will influence the shape of the award itself, and the webpage.  Finally, the website will have both LOW and HIGH graphics options, so comments about "keep it light/I want to be able to see it on my palm pilot/I only use LYNX" aren't necissery, as I plan on making 2 versions of the page.

And the award will be ONE award only (Best Game of 2002), with a number of smaller "mini-awards", that aren't so much awards as points of recognition: Best design, most creative idea, etc.

1) IDEA ONE: No Theme, other than "Indie RPG Awards"
Make the page an excellent tribute to those who busted their balls to print their games. No gimmick, no "tie-in theme", just straight and to the point.

2) IDEA TWO: TIBETAN BUDDHIST STYLE
...huh?
Well, this was actually the first theme-based idea I had. Writing and publishing I see kind of a spiritual journey. I was thinking an award in the shape of some icon of Tibetan Buddhism (graphics or "logo" would include people sitting in the lotus position). Points of recognition would correspond to various mantra: Aum, etc.

3) IDEA THREE: NINJAS!
This is an idea I had today. This theme is a little more out-there, and has only tangential meaning to the indie design process (the producers being the Unseen Ones who lurk in the background but are damn cool in their own right, etc). The award would be something like a hand-designed tsuba- A hilt-guard of a sword.
The coolest thing about this idea is that there are the Kuji-In, the nine symbols of Ninja Power (the mantra/kanji Rin Pyo To Sha Kai Jin Retsu Zai Zen), each with their own meaning. It would be simple to tie each of the meanings to a different award: Pyo, "direction of energy", could be the recognition for best design/layout; Jin, "knowing the thoughts of others", could be an award for best d20-based product and the like.
Plus, I mean, c'mon, who doesn't like ninjas?

Currently, my preference is leaning towards THREE, closely followed by ONE, with TWO trailing.

In the end, it's going to be entirely my choice, but I was wondering if any creative folks had any ideas out there that i may be missing.

Thanks!
-Andy

Everything is better with ninjas, Andy.

Personally I prefer to see less use of religious iconography for commercial reasons.  Or at least have the courtesy to raid a religion that is safely dead.

I guess all awards are basically silly (I recall the trophies my granddad had on top of his TV for insurance sales performance--there was a little gold guy with a suitcase and a fedora), but one of the things I like about the Forge is that it has a certain weightiness to it.  It nudges the line over towards "this is an artistic medium," without being too overt or precious about it.

If it were up to me, I'd probably combine literal forge imagery (not too much; not all indie games spring from this place, cornucopia though it may be) with some tongue-in-cheek social realism a la ActiveState's site.

I guess I could live with ninjas though.  And tsubos are not silly-looking.

One other thing:  as long as you bring up Lynx compatibility (and I do thank you, even though I have Mozilla with all the trimmings up to Flash 6), I'd highly, highly recommend learning CSS so you only have to write one set of pages, just with markup apporpriate to different browsers.  It is far easier than maintaining two whole different sets of pages.

--JB

I would want a theme that really summarized the indie "scene."  It could be something like a bunch of boots with a dozen books that some unhappy guy in the booth wants to sell.  That's just my prefference though.

Ninjas are cool,  but I don't see how they apply here.

Option one gets my vote.  I don't like the idea of an Indie Games website having an overt "theme."  I feel a theme could potentially put people off ("oh, crap, another stupid ninja site" or "what's with the monks?"), and also a theme could draw attention away from the games themselves.

Hi there,

You guys probably guessed this already, but I favor the #1 option as well. But as I like to say (and not intended to derail Andy's request for opinions), it's all up to Andy in the end. What you decide is OK by me.

Best,
Ron

Hey Andy,

Just so I'm clear, when you say "an award in the shape of," you're not talking about an actual physical trophy, but an image/logo that the award winner would put somewhere on their website and/or on the winning game itself, right?

My vote is for idea #1. How about an award image that looks like heavily back-lit dice with the shadows spilling forward into the foreground?

Paul

Quote from: Paul CzegeHey Andy,

Just so I'm clear, when you say "an award in the shape of," you're not talking about an actual physical trophy, but an image/logo that the award winner would put somewhere on their website and/or on the winning game itself, right?

Well, the awards page and the "image" of the award would effectively be a logo which the winner could, if they wanted to (heh), put on future releases of their game.

The award itself, though, would be an actual physical trophy.  Right now, if I go with the ninja theme (and I'm thinking "laid back" theme here, not in-your-face "RealUltimatePower" style stuff) I'd petition for a handmade steel (or wooden) "tsuba"- the engraved hand-guard of a katana or ninja-to. I've started contacting designers... It's a lot more expensice than I thought for a steel one (like, more expensive than your knock-off full katanas that a lot of folks have), and it would be all out-of-pocket, but damn, it would be a very cool, and very fitting award.

-Andy

Hi Andy,

I may be going over the line with this post ... but maybe you should consider that not everyone is as heavily into Japanese stuff as you are. Ninjas carry a pretty low-grade connotation in cinema, for example, and they're often mentioned as evidence of something's cheesy or shallow nature. Sort of a junk-food of pop culture, which is why Ninja Burger is so funny.

But! Dammit, I keep telling myself, it's up to you. And that if something is, itself, classy, then the gimmick can be made classy too - so yeah, if you're onto some people who can make a really cool trophy, then that makes a difference.

Best,
Ron

>>>>
I may be going over the line with this post ... but maybe you should consider that not everyone is as heavily into Japanese stuff as you are.
>>>
Heh. No problem :)
I recognize that I'm more into Japanese stuff than most folks- *sigh*

I'm still waffling back and forth on the issue. Right now my wife and I are designing two pages to compare the feel of them.

Hmmm. I guess it's a matter of sense vs style.  I'll see what I can think of.

I guess, in the meantime, a good substitute question to ask is, "What would make a good grand prize for such an award?", were I to go for Idea One (the basic, to the point approach). I'm a big fan of a physical object over a plain certificate.

Paul's idea works, too.  Looking for other feedback on this- I'm not sure a die would be the best thing... Hmmm maybe something to symbolize the creation, blood/sweat/tears process... Any ideas?

Thanks!

Quote
I guess, in the meantime, a good substitute question to ask is, "What would make a good grand prize for such an award?", were I to go for Idea One (the basic, to the point approach). I'm a big fan of a physical object over a plain certificate.

Paul's idea works, too.  Looking for other feedback on this- I'm not sure a die would be the best thing... Hmmm maybe something to symbolize the creation, blood/sweat/tears process... Any ideas?

Personally, I think a simple logo, like a small "i" would work best. Let's see, you could use a fedora hat ("Indy" games). Maybe you can get Ron's permission to use the Forge's hammer and anvil. And personally, I think a  cash prize would be better than a trophy, for a small-time "starving" indie game designer. You could start a "indie game society" whose whole function is to collect dues from members and then hand a cash prize to a yearly winner, with permission to put "Best Indie Game of the Year" on their backcover (using the money given to them to reprint their game).

Of course, I'm in no danger of actually ever winning a prize like that, and like Ron said, it's your award.

Take care,
Steve Dustin

May I suggest:

 A tableu of the classical fantasy adventuring group.  A gruff dwarven fighter, a human thief and cleric and an elven mage.

 Why?  Is there anything less Indy than a standard D&D group -- no, and that's why you use it.

Of course, my taste for the ironic may outweigh common sense...
Tom

Quote from: Andy Kitkowski>>>>
Heh. No problem :)
I recognize that I'm more into Japanese stuff than most folks- *sigh*

Okay.  I am of two opinions.  From a professional, serious perspective, I think that option #1 is best.

But, darn it all, ninja *are*  cool, and I am totally into Japanese stuff, so if you were giving an award to me, I'd think that getting a hand-carved tsuba would absolutely rock.

But that's just me.  Email me some time, and we'll be weird together.  :-)

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

Quote from: Steve Dustin

Quote
And personally, I think a  cash prize would be better than a trophy, for a small-time "starving" indie game designer.

This, too, is a great idea.  It reminds me of Christmas presents: My wife and I always favor something useful over something flashy. Maybe a simple certificate/award with a cash "development bonus" of $100 or more would be a better use for money.

-Andy

Quote
This, too, is a great idea. It reminds me of Christmas presents: My wife and I always favor something useful over something flashy. Maybe a simple certificate/award with a cash "development bonus" of $100 or more would be a better use for money.

Of course, if you could get enough people to pony up $20-$50 a year, the prize could be much better than that, $500 to $1000 bucks, which would  be really really nice. Plus, it would make the prize very prestigous almost instantaneously. Even mainstream designers would do a double take. Money talks.

Of course, you'd have to come up with a reason for people to part with their money. All I can think of is, "You'd be supporting a worthy cause and have voting rights." Might not be enough for some people.

I guess I'll now have to put my money where my mouth is a proclaim I'll pony up the first $50 bucks. By February, right?

If you want to, of course. I'll vote you in as the first president of the"Indie Gamers Society."

Take care,
Steve Dustin

Paying money for voting rights.

People PAYING for the opportunity to vote alongside the artists.

Man, that's low. That's beyong low, that's just...

IT. WOULD. WORK.

And a damn fine idea at that!

For the second time today, Steve blows my mind.  Now I have to go back and rethink a thing or two :)

-Andy

My vote for bitchingest theme for the Indie Awards is...marzipan bunnies frolicking on a chocolate plain.

Also, word of advice, don't ask for advice on "themes" from people who have little, if any, sense of spatial and visual aesthetic. If you're hosting/coordinating the awards then pick a few people whose work you like/respect and get *their* opinions.

I like ninja.

I KNOW!  How about ninja Japanese school girls!

What?  Err... yeah.  I like Japanese school girls more than I like ninja.

::Cough::

Move along.

-Joshua

Andy,

Anything - ANYTHING - but ninjas.
I beg you.

Pink pastel elephants in tutus.
Androgenous superheroes in jello-suits.
Jared in a thong.

Anything but ninjas.

(Seriously, I don't mind. It's your show and you run it the way you want. But no ninjas. Or you die. A lot.)

Speaking as me... the slickest award for something like this would be a version of the work in question. Something really nuts like (if you have lots of money) a hardback copy of the game, on ultra glossy paper with stainless steel covers.

The stainless steel covers would (naturally) have an award image somehow embossed into them.

And if you have way too much money, higher an uber-good professional artist to do a piece of cover art for the book that the winner can put on all their future products. Have the cover art on the stainless-steel book as well (you can paint cars, I'm sure you can put a piece of art on a steel cover).

I like Ian's idea.  That would be pretty nifty.

-Joshua

Actually, for this first year of the award, I think I'm going to go straight with the "Cheap Certificate Plus Ph4T Pile of Ca$h" for the winner. If, somehow, donations exceed $800 or so, I might go ahead and do something special (have an award made, engraved shot glass, a copy of "Indie Games Monopoly", a hockey Jersey with "I HEART RPGs" on it, etc).

Right now I'm debating whether to go with 100% of the money for the winner, or something like 80% of the money to the winner, and the last 20% to be divided among the other category winners (It'd probably come out to about $5 each, but hey, that's like 2 burritos at Taco Bell!)

-Andy

Hi Andy,

I'll volunteer my services here to be the Wet Blanket (TM)  and offer up a few points for thought (I'm a bookkeeper for a non-profit agency in Real Life, so please forgive me):

1. I love the idea of the Indie RPG Awards.

2. Cash prizes. Hmmmm... on the surface it sounds great, but I wonder if you're not opening Pandora's box with this one. One of the things that I've found to be great about the community here at The Forge over the past few weeks is the sense of comeraderie and neighborliness. I worry that when the promise of $$$ starts floating around there may be a cooling of the openness and collaborative spirit that really define these boards and the indie RPG scene as a whole. I'd hate to see everyone get paranoid about sharing their ideas and advice.

I am certainly not saying that this would definitely happen, just that it could. That would be a real shame.

I am more in favor of modest prizes of the "blurb & logo for your website/cover and a nice certificate" type. Or maybe a silly hat to wear to your next game convention.

3. Ninjas are fun, but it all seems a little "1983" for my tastes. Ron makes a good point above about the "cheese" factor.

4. I agree with everyone who has pointed out that the bottom line of this discussion is "It's your show; do what you want to with it."

All that being said, I am very impressed by your passion for this project, and the initiative you've already taken to try to make it happen. More power to you!

take care,
Rod

As for prizes: I woudn't go too far.  I'd say a 50-30-20 relationship, and I'd recomend not more than 150$ in prizes total (Unless I'm on the voting panel =] ). JMHO.  You can give the rest of the donations on charity.  This would make each participant feel like he/she's earned something while also limiting the elitest attitude that it could generate.

Quote from: Rod Phillips
2. Cash prizes. Hmmmm... on the surface it sounds great, but I wonder if you're not opening Pandora's box with this one. One of the things that I've found to be great about the community here at The Forge over the past few weeks is the sense of comeraderie and neighborliness. I worry that when the promise of $$$ starts floating around there may be a cooling of the openness and collaborative spirit that really define these boards and the indie RPG scene as a whole. I'd hate to see everyone get paranoid about sharing their ideas and advice.

I woudn't be too worried. As Eric points out you can keep the prizes in such a range that they aen't likely to affect anyone's behavior. This leaves more money for runners-up, which means less competition again, as each is likely to get something comparable.

QuoteI am more in favor of modest prizes of the "blurb & logo for your website/cover and a nice certificate" type.

Where would this go? Remember, The Forge is in no way associated, technically, with the award so as to remain neutral.

QuoteOr maybe a silly hat to wear to your next game convention.

De rigeur.

Quote3. Ninjas are fun, but it all seems a little "1983" for my tastes. Ron makes a good point above about the "cheese" factor.

Yeah, but...You know when we were at GenCon we touted ourselves as Indie-RPG Ninjas. Even on the signage. And the "cheese" seems somehow very in tune with the Indie Spirit (B Movie presentations, and gonzo attitude). And the idea of being stealthful as in operating under the radar. Works for me on several levels.

Perhaps more tailored an image, however. A little Ninja wielding a Pen? Or with Throwing Dice in hand?

Just some random thoughts.

Mike

P.S. You know, John, there probably is something better than Ninja. But did you hafta put that last image in my mind for cripes sake in order to make your point? You know until now I've avoided needing therapy; I think you may have just put me over the edge. Shud-d-d-d-er.

[quote="Mike Holmes]P.S. You know, John, there probably is something better than Ninja. But did you hafta put that last image in my mind for cripes sake in order to make your point? You know until now I've avoided needing therapy; I think you may have just put me over the edge. Shud-d-d-d-er.[/quote]


My hiney and I are duly offended.

I'm going through all my Indie RPG Awards-related threads and letting everyone know who subscribed to them that we're live!

http://www.rpg-awards.com

If you released a game last year, REGISTER IT!

If you released a game in the last two years, REGISTER TO VOTE!

If you haven't released any games, PLEASE HELP GET THE WORD OUT at other RPG forums, newsgroups, etc.

Thanks for helping me start this up, guys.  I really appreciate it.

-Andy