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Hi all,

The Iliad. The Odyssey.  The Aeneid.  Medea.  Oedipus Rex.  Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire.  Inspired by the above works I'm about to start a Sorcerer game set in ancient, semi-mythical Greece.  The characters will be heroes along the lines of Achilles, Oedipus, Aeneas, Ajax, Odysseus, Perseus, powerful but flawed, while sorcery will consist of pacting and binding with the gods and other supernatural figures.  

Sorcery dovetails so nicely with Greek sources it makes you wonder.  In the Iliad nearly every important conflict is swayed in one direction or another based on the relationship of the characters to the gods (demons).  The book is full of  sorcerous acts: summoning, pacting, contacting, even punishing; and the gods are just as slippery as the most devious demon.  Take a look at the scene where one of the gods takes the form of Hector's brother to convince him to fight Achilles, then abandons Hector at the crucial moment in the fray because the god wants to see Hector dead.

Has anybody tried this yet?  This is still at a very early stage and I can't figure out what humanity equals, or how to structure the game.  Classic (detective fiction) relationship map, or more S&S bang oriented?  

Any ideas or other sources you think are worthwhile would be appreciated.

Tor

Quote from: Tor EricksonI can't figure out what humanity equals

Neither do I. On the other hand, the concept of Fate is an important one for that kind of setting, so maybe you could introduce it somehow ?

Hello,

Humanity, it seems to me, would Passion at the wholly personal level, regardless of whether it's a "good" or "bad" passion.

Achilles sulks in his tent ... Odysseus misses his wife ... human weakness, what people call the tragic flaw, is a good thing in human terms. That's what people often misunderstand, in my opinion, about Greek legend and drama. It leads to heartbreak, shit-storms, awfulness, and multiple deaths, but dammit, it's plain old real.

The villain in Greek tragedy and legend, it seems to me, is faith in an ideal over personal ties. If the city is more important to you, if the war is more important to you, then you become less and less human, and even in victory your life becomes empty.

Contrast Jason, after the fallout with Medea (based on him putting "city" over her), sitting under the prow of the Argo, dying when a piece falls off and kills him, with Theseus, who stays loyal to Ariadne.

So therefore success or failure at the endeavor can accompany "fullness" or "emptiness" in terms of Humanity - which is exactly the sort of thing the Sorcerer rules are set up to do.

Best,
Ron

Hey guys,

Thierry, you mentioned Fate, which plays a huge role in the literature; so big that it almost demands to be addressed in the game.  Sword and Sorcerer deals with the topic of fate (destiny), and I've been re-reading those passages, trying to figure out how it fits in.  While not all of the characters in the literature have an explicit fate, almost all the major ones do: and it usually involves dying or something else pretty bad (like killing your father and sleeping with your mother).  I think it's an issue that I'll just have to feel out the players with.

And Ron, you write some intriguing lines about humanity, but I'm not sure I totally follow.  If humanity is passion, then who is a character at humanity zero?  (Jason, as you mention?)  And what do you mean with your last paragraph about fullness and emptiness "in terms of humanity"?

And couldn't one argue that in the Iliad, for example (I just read it so it's freshest in my mind), humanity is a combination of honor and empathy?  I'm thinking of Achilles after he learns of Patroclus' death, and then going out and slaughtering lots of Trojans, finishing up with Hector and (here's the important part) denying Hector's wish to return his body to the Trojans.  Isn't this a big humanity no-no?  Then when Priam visits Achilles and begs for the body and Achilles is flooded with a wave of empathy for the old man, thinking of his own father, isn't this a big humanity surge?

Any thoughts on other must read sources?

Tor

The problem is with that definition I'm not sure how you'd link humanity with the appeal to the Gods (demons). Does Odysseus lose humanity because he's protected by Athena ? Not really.

Maybe you could treat humanity as control over your Fate when summoning Gods. If they show up, it is because they always had some special interest for you, and have something in store for the future. At zero, you are merely a puppet in the God's hands. If you negociate well when asking a favour, you might postpone your final demise.

Does it make sense ?

Hello,

Arguably, Apollo and Athena are Humanity-helpers - angels, in The Sorcerer's Soul terms, not demons at all, in direct contrast to patronage by say, Poseidon or Ares. The whole Orestiad trilogy suggests as much to me.

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Thierry MichelThe problem is with that definition I'm not sure how you'd link humanity with the appeal to the Gods (demons). Does Odysseus lose humanity because he's protected by Athena ? Not really.

Are you talking about Ron's definition of Humanity as passion?

Otherwise, I think your idea about humanity zero = puppet of the gods is a good one.  I've been wrestling with how humanity loss relates to the literature and I think you might have hit the target.  In other words, the more you deal with the gods the closer you get to losing control of your fate.  So what happens at humanity zero then?  In game terms?

Ron:  I went back and read the angelic rules from Soul (did you do a re-write for the book version?  I didn't remember half that stuff from the PDF) and got really excited.  As you mention, the actions of a lot of the gods coincide with the rules option one, treating angels as demons with binding happening in reverse and the gods as the "Good Visitor" (passing) types.  Any other thoughts on how the reverse binding would play out?

Tor

Tor,

I think that both parts of your post (one to Thierry and one to me) are related.

Bear in mind that "puppet of the gods" means something concrete - it usually means committing to a city-state's interest of some kind. So 0 Humanity means becoming a person who really only exists as an extension or expression of that city-state or national interest, not as a person with needs/feelings of his own. The fate of such a person is usually to die "used up."

I might be thinking too much in terms of Jason and the Argonauts, as well as the Iliad and the Odyssey, but that's how those look to me.

The reverse Binding in angel terms, then, represents a commitment on the "angel's" part toward the human Needs of the protagonist. See, the "demon" says, Give your all to Polypolis and you will be famed forever; the "angel" says, Stick with your passions and yourself as just a person, and I'll help you get through all this war/city crap.

Best,
Ron

Couldn't Humanity simply measure a Hero's freedom of action, free of the gods? A Hero with Humanity 3 is a pawn of Hera, pushed and pulled, a Hero with a Humanity of 10 is proud and fearless of Hera (or who-ever). He retains his human dignity.

Lovely idea by the way. The setting and genre is always a source of fascination for me - an obsession. But I have yet to create anything worthy of it. It will one day be my magnus opus (or it'll come out in D20 next year and I'll be crying in my beer!!).

Hi Paul,

One of the difficulties (or opportunities) of Humanity in Sorcerer is that it doesn't literally measure anything in-game. A low Humanity means it's more at risk, not that you have "less" of something.

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Ron EdwardsTor,

I think that both parts of your post (one to Thierry and one to me) are related.

Bear in mind that "puppet of the gods" means something concrete - it usually means committing to a city-state's interest of some kind. So 0 Humanity means becoming a person who really only exists as an extension or expression of that city-state or national interest, not as a person with needs/feelings of his own. The fate of such a person is usually to die "used up."

Great.  I love it.  

What's your source for Jason and the Argonauts?

Thanks for your ideas Ron and Thierry.  And Paul, it sounds like you've delved into the literature.  Any thoughts on the most appropriate (Sorcerer relevant or just the best) stuff?

Tor

For recommendations, I'm going to bring up my perennial favorite, Orestia (previously mentioned by Ron).  The level of transgression and drama is incredibly intense, with at least three kinslayers throughout the plays, and the pursuit of the fates.  These are just the points that stick out in my mind.  I'm certain that there are many more.

For rituals, I recommend using the traditional Greek rituals, which always involved a blood sacrifice.

Quote from: Tor EricksonAny thoughts on the most appropriate (Sorcerer relevant or just the best) stuff?

If you want to keep the Homeric tone, I'm not sure classical writers are all that appropriate: despite the fact that they use the heroic tales, their values are those of classical Greece.

Quote from: ClayFor recommendations, I'm going to bring up my perennial favorite, Orestia (previously mentioned by Ron).

Funny that you should mention it; I just started reading Ted Hughes' translation and so far I'm loving it.

QuoteFor rituals, I recommend using the traditional Greek rituals, which always involved a blood sacrifice.

What's interesting though, is that all different levels of appeals to the gods exist in the literature.  Sure, sometimes Odysseus takes the time to make sacrifices and visit the temple, but more often he just offers up a fervent prayer just prior to swinging his sword.  Of course, taking the time out to make those sacrifices is usually a more sure technique... just like in Sorcerer :)

The question I'm posing to my players right now is whether they want to run something more adventurous  (ranging from the trials of Hercules to the Odyssey), a la Sword and Sorcery, or something more dramatic/tragic (ranging from the Iliad to Oresteia), a la Sorcerer's Soul.  We'll see.

Tor

Okay, I've been thinking about this for the past week or so, and discussing matters with my players, and here are my current thoughts.  

Humanity is human passion (feeling things deeply).  Demons are the Gods and perhaps other mythical creatures (one of the players has mentioned satyrs and nymphs).  In contrast to humanity, the demons are interested in the welfare of the city-state, but care very little for individual people (or their Passions).

Okay?

If that's the case, then what exactly is sorcery, given that it must transgress on human passion (humanity)?  Do rituals involve making some sort of commitment to the state?  In other words, how does sorcery deaden the passions?  I'm worried that sorcery which was based on commitment to the state wouldn't be very exciting.

Also, I'm toying with the idea of using Jared Sorenson's zero-humanity mechanic (as paraphrased in Soul): to wit, in the session following the drop to zero, the character dies.  This seems most proper given the literature (see Creon in Antigone, or Jason in Medea--if i'm recalling correctly), and appropriately dramatic.

So?

Tor

Sorcery = committing to the state/gods = not exciting?

?!

I believe Creon holds forth on this very thing at length, as does whatsisname (Pentheus?), the prince in The Bacchae who gets torn limb from limb from limb later on.

Is not The Trojan Women specifically about the price of placing The State (abstract honor, patriotism, the gods' temples) over the needs and interests of people?

Hell, what's Lysistrata except a kick in sorcery's teeth by the Humanity types?

I think the problem is the term "passion" in isolation. All of the above, state and personal alike, is passionate. What matters is whether it's passionate commitment to an abstraction or to human beings.

And that's why The Furies (last play in the Orestiad) is, I think, the last word on Greek myth, tragedy, and theme.

'Cause Apollo and Athena, unlike all the other gods, are, in Sorcerer terms, angels, not demons.

Best,
Ron

I must confess that I am intrigued by this idea, not least in respects to what the Titanomachy would represent.

That's if, indeed, the Titanomachy needs to represent anything.

- drew

Mmmm.  Titanomachy?

On a related note, Gene Wolfe has published I think 2 volumes of a series set in ancient Greece, of which the first is (if I remember correctly) called Soldier of Arete.  If you've read any Wolfe, you won't be surprised to hear that it's extremely weird, very well written, and explores sides of ancient Greece from a genuinely unique perspective.

Titanomachy: Battle/war of the Titans.  I think this is when Zeus and friends open up a can of whoop-ass on the Titans, and end up ruling Olympus.  Something like that.

The Titanomachy was when the Titans were killed by the Gods of Olympus. It's strangely similar to events in Norse mythology, where their lot did in the Giants. Basically it's the event where the ruling Pantheon say "Hello! We're going to be in charge now".

The thing is that there are rough correspondences between the Titans and the Gods. Though they are opposed, they are similar. The thing is that I might be intrigued to play a game where the Titanomachy was being played out, not just by the Gods in their plane [not least because the Titans were said to walk the earth, if memory serves] but by those unfortunate souls who worshipped the Titans.

- drew

Hi Drew,

My only concern with that approach, for purposes of discussion here, is that it has nothing to do with Greek literature and (in game terms) Humanity issues. Unless someone can remind or inform me otherwise, I perceive the Titan stuff in the mythology as being basically, boring and over-with. There're a few of them still around as local color for "days gone by," but that's it. I don't see much point to placing them as a central issue in a Greek-lit type context.

Best,
Ron

You're right - the Titanomachy is really a "days gone by" thing. I was really thinking about the giants (http://www.theoi.com/Tartaros/Gigantes.html) who represent prime Imminent material.

Though ere are also interesting things in some of the conflicts with relation to the 'will of the gods' vs 'good of the people' thing - Prometheus was a Titan, siding with Zeus in the Titanomachy but stealing fire from the heavens later on.

I'm not sure what that makes Prometheus, unless, of course, he's a 'Spartan Sorcerer' too.

- drew

[edit: tags, hanging or incomplete - 3, drew - nil]

Hey,

Prometheus = Sorcerer & Sword hero, with the Lore Descriptor "Old One" (or something like that) and Past descriptor "Immortal."

Best,
Ron

Hey,

So far this discussion has centered on mythic Greece.  What about the Peloponnesian War era?  Would Sparta constitute an entire city-state of low Humanity citizenry under your definition, Ron?

Best,

Blake

Hi Blake,

Yup! Although with the proviso that I'm staying very literary with that judgment and not talking about real people or real history at all.

Best,
Ron

Hello Ron,

Understood.  The notion of Spartan sorcerers taking on the Persian Immortals just caught my imagination.  I love the Hellenic milieu.

Best,

Blake

Where does Hubris fit in? I was thinking that the hero's demon was his tragic flaw (as well as what empowers him). As such, woudn't humanity be Humility, and a Zero Humanity be a Sorensenian death due to Hubris?

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesWhere does Hubris fit in? I was thinking that the hero's demon was his tragic flaw (as well as what empowers him). As such, woudn't humanity be Humility, and a Zero Humanity be a Sorensenian death due to Hubris?

Mike

  Well at that level of hubris the gods usually did something reeeeeally nasty to you; siccing the furies on you, turning you into the medusa, turning you into a spider....At zero humanity you become get a mega-kicker which enshrines you as one ofthe supertragic types...

Hi there,

Actually, I see Hubris the other way around. I see it as having high Humanity but coming to a horrible, lonely, and unhappy end. I don't see Hubris and its consequences as low-Humanity at all.

Remember the four outcomes for Sorcerer protagonists:

- Things work out great, and your demons are abandoned or otherwise not involved
- Things work out great, and your demons/you are still linked up
- Things work out badly, and your demons are abandoned or otherwise not involved
- Things work out badly, and your demons/you are still linked up

These are, respectively, Odysseus, Theseus, Oedipus, Jason.

See, it's tricky because we tend to think of the State and Personal combined as a good thing. But this is option #2 above and entails a Humanity tightrope-walk, not option #1 (the safe one).

Also, plenty of characters occupy the "cracks" in this value system, like Medea, so things can get pretty complicated and extremely ambiguous about who's really right.

Best,
Ron