I had a recent debate on another forum that stemmed from CafePress' decision to do print on demand publishing. The debate basicly revolved around how that will effect the current distribution system and how places like Wizard's Attic make it too easy for game designers to get their games on book store shelves.
The debate was with an employee of an established game studio which will remain nameless. It was his contention that it is too easy for crap to make it to book store shelves and that the mass influx of new games brought about by the D20 OGL and Indy movement is "clogging up the channels" thus making it harder for established publishers to make a profit and remain viable buisinesses. It's his belief that established businesses that are out to make a profit are being forced to compete for shelf space with vanity press publishers.
QuoteWhat I want is for people to be able to make a living designing and
selling games. The current system makes that difficult because a lot of
people who are not in business to make money (whether knowingly or
otherwise) are competing for shelf space. They're not making enough
money for their businesses to be viable, but they're draining cash away
from other businesses, making them less viable.
What I gather from this is that there is only so much cash floating around in the hobby and that there are so many new products out there that the money is being spread too thin.
He also believes that game publishers should prove themselves before they can take part in the existing system and that the industry should "raise the bar to entry".
QuoteYou have a right to publish and find your audience, but if you want to get into distribution and onto retail store shelves you need (in my opinion) to be able to work the channel -- produce a professional looking product, research distributors, send them samples or sell sheets, and
pitch buyers on why they should carry you. You need to get a membership
on the Games Industry Forum and sell retailers on your product. You
need to be at the major shows (GTS, Origins, and Gen Con) making a show of being in the industry as a full-time publisher and attending local
small cons to build a groundswell in your area.
And if you can't do that because you don't have the time or the money,
then get yourself a web site and sell your product via .pdf or PoD. There's no shame in being a micro or vanity press. If you sell the book off your web site, you cut out the middle man, increasing your profitability so that you get more money out of your endeavor. You also don't put largely unviable product into the standard distribution channel where it hurts the guys who are trying to make a living at this (and I mean at all three tiers).
Being an employee of a game company and relying on the stability of the industry to make a living obviously influences his view. I felt that the subject should be presented to the other side of the spectrum (the Indy side) to see what you all have to say on the subject.
Do vanity press games indeed clog up the channels?
Should they be allowed to compete for shelf space with more viable businesses?
Is the recent flood of new games hurting or helping the industry?
Speak up.
,Matt
edited for typos
Hi there,
Matt, thanks for laying this out so clearly. I've been wanting to provide my own position about this issue - which I hear about a lot, as you might imagine - for a while now.
According to you, this fellow said (and again, I've heard the same from many):
QuoteWhat I want is for people to be able to make a living designing and
selling games.
In my experience, this statement is often accompanied by grievous accounts of bills to pay and of kids with large eyes, gazing trustingly upwards.
My response is simple:
No one owes anyone else a living. If that weren't the case, I could moan about not being able to make a living posting here at the Forge. Or singing in the shower. Or selling badly-handcrafted playdough sculptures on the sidewalk in front of my house.
Quite a bit of the usual discussion around this and similar statements evaporates in the face of my response.
Best,
Ron
Quote from: Matt Gwinn
What I gather from this is that there is only so much cash floating around in the hobby and that there are so many new products out there that the money is being spread too thin.
Do vanity press games indeed clog up the channels?
Should they be allowed to compete for shelf space with move viable businesses?
Is the recent flood of new games hurting or helping the industry?
Speak up.
,Matt
Screw 'em and screw him too. Who is to decide when someone should be allowed into the market? Those who are already on the market and benefit from its present nature of course! It sounds to me like the big boys are being squeezed and they are whining about their problems. If you the present market is crowded why dont you create a new one? I think the whole static market mentality is one of the biggest problems of this so-called industry.
What point of the system is to decide who gets on the shelves? Who is to enforce this consensus? The distributors? The whole movement is a reaction to and a workaround for the politicized and innefficient distribution system, so they have no way of enforcing it. The shops? They always have to choose what to buy,sounds like this guy is whining because they have TOO MANY choices for his comfort. This barrier would prevent them from having the chance to choose. The buyers? The whole point is to freeze products that are supposedly 'unviable' out of the market before buyers see them, gee I thought the test of viability was that people bought it, silly me! Who decides what is crap and what isn't? Apparently we the buyer shouldnt get to decide, if you dont meet certain criteria that benefit the already 'established' your product shouldn't even exist.
If the 'established' (with their whole 5-6 person staff) publishers can't figure out how to make a living against peolpe who are giving it away (the hated 'vanity press') then they should go out of business. Why should I feel sympathy for those complaining they cant make a living selling ice in Antarctica?
Funny Matt, I had this exact same conversation with a guy whose been in the gaming business (mostly wargaming) for decades and his position was very similiar. Too many game companies turning out too much product.
Personally, my take on the whole issue is simply that there are two kinds of game companies: hobbiests and businesses. A hobbiest should have zero expectations of anything. He should evaluate $3000 spent on a print run the same as he'd evaluate spending $3000 on a plasma screen tv and home entertainment theatre. If you can afford to blow the money and the entertainment value of what you're buying is worth it to you, go for it...but write off any thoughts of a profit and consider what you get back like a rebate offer.
What pisses me off most about the industry are people who have business expectations with hobbiest execution. For instance, I've heard from several respected industry professionals on how difficult it is to pay their freelancers on time because the distributors don't pay them on time. This to me is ludicrous and a prime example of how unprofessional most of this industry is. There is a word for businesses that attempt to survive paycheck to paycheck like that...its called "undercapitalized" and its usually a step on the road to bankruptcy. All businesses deal with accounts receivables and delinquencies. All businesses have various means of dealing with delinquencies. All businesses when crafting their budgets assume a certain level of non payments and account for that upfront with "reserve for bad debt" accounts and so forth. I've not yet met a game publisher who can adequately describe their accounts receivable process to me. Which is fine for hobbiests but totally removes my capability to sympathize with people who claim to be running a business.
Now onto the question at hand of whether the hobbiests are clogging up the channels. I can only say that if ones business can not compete with the slap dash efforts of the majority of hobbiests than how can one consider oneself a viable business. If your customers would rather spend their money on a product put together by people who don't do all of the things the above party suggests should be a requirement than perhaps that tells you something about those requirements.
Quote from: ValamirFunny Matt, I had this exact same conversation with a guy whose been in the gaming business (mostly wargaming) for decades and his position was very similiar. Too many game companies turning out too much product.
.
What he means is change is coming and since I dont know how to market my copies of the Battle of Bumfuckland to anyplace but the tiny cliques of hobby shop nerds I'm trouble because Holinthewall game shop only has so much space on its walls for promo posters.
This is an admission the the 'established' names that they are hothouse flowers that can be upset by the smallest, tempest-in-a-teapot change in the field. EXPAND THE MARKET! EXPAND THE MARKET! Hello,hello is anyone listening? Hello, hello....?
strange... is the indie industry really "clogging the channels"? from what I've been reading, most indie game companies still can't get on the shelves. I bought Sorcerer at a game store instead of online, but it was NOT on the shelf. likewise, although there's tons of third-party d20 products appearing, most of them seem to be available online only; the products I see in the stores are from an imprint of an established game company, not from a true independent.
also, on a sidenote: what's this about Cafe Press doing print-on-demand? I hadn't heard this, and I've just checked their website pretty thoroughly: no mention of print-on-demand for books at all. their business still seems to be based entirely around printing images on t-shirts, mugs, and calendars.
RPGNow is doing print-on-demand, but you still wouldn't be able to use that to get on the store shelves.
Hi Matt,
I don't think I can add too much more to the topic aside from what others have said, but I am reminded of Roger and Me a little bit. You know Documentary, Michael Moore, GM plant closing in Flint MI,... This guy is sounding a lot like Moore and the people of Flint when they found out the plant was closing and all the jobs were moving to Mexico. It amounts to so much whining on their part. Yes, it's bad that GM closed the plant and everyone lost their job. Yes, it's depressing what happened to Flint as community. But, you can either continue to cry into your beer or you can do something about it.
That and I think that the reason why "viable" companies are losing profits has less to do with the indie movement and more to do with said company's lack of understanding of business in general.
"Gee, the third edition rules aren't selling as well now as they did back when they first came out. Why is that? It must be all of those indie games competing for shelf space! Damn them!"
Quotealso, on a sidenote: what's this about Cafe Press doing print-on-demand? I hadn't heard this, and I've just checked their website pretty thoroughly: no mention of print-on-demand for books at all. their business still seems to be based entirely around printing images on t-shirts, mugs, and calendars.
I don't know if that's the case for a fact, but that was the subject that started the debate. It seemed odd to me too, but also seems to be a good way for Cafepress to expand their business.
I think I should point out that I don't want this thread to turn into an "us vs them" battle. I would just like people's honest opinions on the subject. If anyone has any actual experiences that relate to this topic I'd like to hear about it.
Do we have any distributors or store owners/employees that can attest to the effects on Vanity press games on their business? Any non-indy posters out there have any input?
,Matt G.
Here's a word that doesn't get used often on The Forge: asshat. I think it applies in several situations here.
First of all, Game Guy X that has been talking to Matt: definitely an asshat. People can make a living making RPGs. The formula's pretty simple: take the capital and resources you have as a larger game company and produce work that's either bigger, better, or prettier than the small presses. Your work sells more than smaller presses. If not, then, well, you've been beaten - not because there's a low bar to entry, or anything else, but because consumers prefer other work.
(And as a tangent: when there's semi-decent articles like this (http://www.gazettenet.com/01232003/valley_l/3761.htm) in local newspapers talking about role-playing games, the market is not drying up or any such thing.)
Second, anyone who thinks the same people that buy d20 stuff are primarily the people who might decide, "Hey, I'd rather get that indie game": asshat. Completely not true.
Third, who are these indie designers that have their games all over the game store? (Ok, Hero Wars and Sorcerer and Godlike. All great games.) Otherwise, asshats, all of you. The current distribution model is seriously broken in more ways than I want to go into today. Briefly: you can reach new people and larger markets online. Beyond that, you can expand who might buy your game by not putting it on the shelves of a moldy old game store inhabited by the same dozen people each week. Look around for things like 'zine stores, which'll carry your self-published game in a heartbeat. Any decent size urban center has a zine store, or a counter-culture store, or a sex shop (think I'm kidding? I've seen Obsidian in the same store as cock rings), or somewhere where literates, freaks, musicians, and others hang out. I've spoken with the local zine store to me, Confounded Books (http://www.trashkids.com/), and they've agreed to carry print editions of Anvilwerks games, just by looking at a copy of Donjon.
Thus ends my rant for today.
Quote from: talysmanstrange... is the indie industry really "clogging the channels"?
Not in the sense you probably mean, no.
What people are really talking about is d20 companies. An enormous number of new companies have entered the field in a very short amount of time, each trying to ride the d20 wave. In the early days of d20, it didn't matter how shitty your product was, you could still probably sell 3,000 of it into the channel. This enabled a bunch of companies to establish themselves quickly, and the imitators continue to come out of the woodwork.
Each individual d20 company has a very small effect, but together they do tax the system. Distributors and retailers have a certain amount of money to buy new product each month. If they decide to invest some of that money is 20 companies that didn't exist last year, that has an effect. If you talk to any d20 publisher, they'll tell you that numbers sold per product generally decreased throughout 2002. This is one of the reasons why.
I don't think this has much to do with "indy" the way it's defined around here. Small press games like Sorcerer or Riddle of Steel have always been a feature of the landscape.
Whoah!
I've seen Obsidian in the same store as cock rings.
Too much information!
So, Matt, was that you I saw talking to that coven of new-age witches the other day, saying, "Hey, I just talked to a fundamentalist who said that witches should be burned. What do you think?"
That was you, wasn't it?
Mike
Quote from: Paul CzegeWhoah!
I've seen Obsidian in the same store as cock rings.
Too much information!
We keep joking about doing Mutants &Masterminds merchandise like Atomic Brain coffee mugs. A Kalak the Mystic cock ring would really take it to another level though!
Way off-topic, everyone, but two points:
a) Mike Holmes wins!
b) Chris - I'd buy an Atomic Brain coffee mug for certain.
- Clinton
You see, that's just it. I'd have completed and published several of my own indie games by now, but I didn't want to clog up the channels.
- Walt, who hopes y'all appreciate the sacrifice
QuoteSo, Matt, was that you I saw talking to that coven of new-age witches the other day, saying, "Hey, I just talked to a fundamentalist who said that witches should be burned. What do you think?"
LOL I figured there would be some harsh words spoeken which is why I didn't use any names. But I was honestly interested in a discusion on the matter from people not working for the bigger companies.
I do agree with the guy on one point; there is a lot of crap out there that is simply wasting space. The question is, is the existence of that crap keeping my game or someone elses off the shelf? Is there such a thing as too many games? Does the gaming industry have a signal to noise ratio?
In regards to the general problems with the distribution system, is there any way to fix things without putting someone out of work?
,Matt G.
OK, that's more reasonable. I think that we can probably continue discussing this usefully as long as people try to present the Devil's Advocate positions. I think the first few posts hit the Con side of the argument pretty well, already.
That said, I got nothin'.
Mike
Quote from: Matt Gwinn
I do agree with the guy on one point; there is a lot of crap out there that is simply wasting space. The question is, is the existence of that crap keeping my game or someone elses off the shelf? Is there such a thing as too many games? Does the gaming industry have a signal to noise ratio?
I, too, agree. The problem, as I see it, is that the "crap" is not limited to those pesky shelf-squatters, whoever the hell they are. The crap is there in DROVES from the core companies -- you know, the people putting bread on their table via gaming production/publication. Sure, there's some nice product. The might even be simply some nice _looking_ product. But there's far more crap out there. Shit sandwiched between a hard cover, glossy cover is still a shit sandwich.
In other words, I'd bet dimes to dollars that I view this whining guy's product as crap, or to put it more politely, something I wouldn't buy.
The issue, as I see it, is that practically no one operates in a manner that the rest of the world would consider professional. I can't really blame anybody. But then, I never viewed this as anything but -- how did Ralph put it? -- analagous to buying a plasma screen tv. Yeah, buying a TV w/ no warranty. That's a fair enough analogy for my beloved hobby.
So it goes.
Sorry to be overly simplistic my fellows, but aren't the complaints at the top of this thread simply another example of the evolution of the print publishing industry? I've heard pretty much the same stuff coming out of the big publishing houses as print-on-demand prices get closer and closer to volume discount prices. And you know what happens every time the business paradigm shifts....
it shouldn't be that way.[/list:u]Too bad, either evolve or go extinct. It ain't the indie publishers 'ruining the market,' it's the technology. Perhaps 'the nameless game company' should rethink doing business 'the old-fashioned way.' Why don't they slash their overhead and work outsourced with a boatload of freelancers; if they focus on finding reliable talent and use their expertise in marketing and presentation, they can make
their skills payoff more than the volume discount used to.
What's that?
I think I hear the "three tier system" cracking.[/list:u][/list:u]I wonder what's on the other side?
Fang Langford
Well, perhaps a surprise to anyone that knows my political-social leanings, but "What Ron said."
I mean, I'd love to get all the local tech work being done by those who aren't accredited and certified as industry professionals...oh, wait, maybe I'll have the government put regulations in place so that no one can work in this field but me and who I say.
(Oh, wait, didn't Socialist Russia try that?)
See, in a free trade system, ultimately nobody cares about your kids or your hunger but you, except as a part of their moral social consciousness that says, "We should feed the hungry and help the poor."
The system, however, doesn't give a shit.
Welcome to business in a capitalist society.
If you can't survive in the career you're in, you need to change careers...quite the reverse of the desired scenario: Matt's friend leaves the business and thus makes more space for those willing to persevere losses or lack of income. Same result, though.
Quote from: Matt GwinnThe question is, is the existence of that crap keeping my game or someone elses off the shelf? Is there such a thing as too many games? Does the gaming industry have a signal to noise ratio?
In order: Yes. Maybe. Yes.
There is a limited amount of money to be used each month with which to purchase games; hence if a retailer buys a large load of crap, they will forego purchasing something else. If the crap doesn't sell, they have even less money to be used on the following order to purchase other product with.
Too many games. I say "maybe" because it depends on who you're asking and a variety of factors that don't really relate to business. Socially and culturally, the answer to the question is "No." It's like asking, "Is there too much variety in the ways we can prepare our food?"
Signal-to-noise: any product group has this. You're essentially asking if there is "good" product and "bad" product, to which one can only say, "Of course." But what's good and what's bad is, generally, another matter of taste.
QuoteIn regards to the general problems with the distribution system, is there any way to fix things without putting someone out of work?
No. Its a simple fact of the way business works. The Company buys X amount of product, spending Y amount of dollars from a limited resource (M). They now have Y dollars less resource (M) to buy products Z, A and B.
The distribution chain could be better informed and more knowledgeable about the product they put on the shelves and the way they order and run their business (hearkening back to the discussion of that successful comics shop -- Page 54 (?) -- we had here some time ago), but the problem is thus:
No matter whose products you don't buy, you're putting someone out of work.
That's all there is to it.
Quote from: Le JoueurPerhaps 'the nameless game company' should rethink doing business 'the old-fashioned way.' Why don't they slash their overhead and work outsourced with a boatload of freelancers; if they focus on finding reliable talent and use their expertise in marketing and presentation, they can make their skills payoff more than the volume discount used to.
I like a good revolution as much as the next punk, but you might want to learn more about the game industry before you warm yourself by its death pyre. Most RPG companies already outsource writing and art to freelancers. Smart companies build up a good working relationship with a pool of freelance talent, so they have "go-to" guys and gals that are good at what they do and timely in their execution.
Green Ronin will probably publish 30 titles this year. I will design one and half to two of these myself (and do development on all the non-M&M titles, but that's different). The rest will be done by freelancers, as will all the art, all the editing, and some of the graphic design. This is not at all unusual.
Quote from: greyormWelcome to business in a capitalist society.
As I learned in my Economics class, you bring your product to the market where the consumer decides to either buy your product or that of your competitors. It's the second chapter of the text. If you don't even have that basic piece of Economics info down I question your ability to effectively compete in any business venture.
Competition = bad is a weak excuse for poor business sense.
1. There is no such thing as too many games. Not on store shelves, not on my shelves, not on the Internet. There's a reason I have a 160GB hard drive. There's a reason I try to make contact with every publisher I can find out there in the field even though I am supposedly the cutthroat competition. Every time I walk into a game store I want to see something new, whether from an indie publisher or from an established veteran company.
2. I, like many game publishers, am concieted enough to think that I am an artist and that my art deserves an audience, however small. That sometimes clouds my business judgement, but is also why I don't spend sixty hours a week selling refrigerators. I don;t want to hear it when people tell me I don't belong in this business, which is essentially what I've been told on many an occasion for the last three years. It knaws at my guts. It aches in my bones. it hurts to be told things like that. I have experienced things in the game business, good or bad, that I could not have experienced any other way, and my life has been far richer for it. Nobody has the right to take that away from me.
3. Undercapitalization is frustrating, but not getting stuff to press is even more so. If borrowing against my accounts recievable means I get to go to the GAMA Trade Show, so be it. At least I know the money is scheduled to come eventually.
4. If POD and PDF publishing is so wonderful, why aren;t more people buying PODs and PDFs? We need to make a concerted effort to grow this market, people, for everybody's sake, to make the entire business more viable. Cutting each other down doesn't cut it anymore -- if we don;t build each other up, none of us are going to survive.
I hate to march out of step, here, but I just can't join in on the "bash the established game companies" fun, because (as I said) I think the fundamental premise of the nameless game insider is flawed. I don't think the big game companies are really being choked out by an upsurge in small game companies.
Quote from: when Istrange... is the indie industry really "clogging the channels"?
Quote from: Pramas
What people are really talking about is d20 companies. An enormous number of new companies have entered the field in a very short amount of time, each trying to ride the d20 wave. In the early days of d20, it didn't matter how shitty your product was, you could still probably sell 3,000 of it into the channel. This enabled a bunch of companies to establish themselves quickly, and the imitators continue to come out of the woodwork.
... but again, I allowed for that in my original example. I'm just not seeing a huge quantity of small-press d20 in the stores. when I go to my favorite, best-stocked gamestore, I see:
- a whole lot of WotC d20 stuff;
- a whole lot of d20 stuff from other major, pre-d20 companies (White Wolf, Chaosium;)
- a lot of d20 stuff by a small number of companies whose history I'm not clear on, but I suspect had pre-d20 existence, based on the breadth and (physical) quality of their product lines;
- hardly any d20 stuff from new companies with small product lines.
[/list:u]
heck, when you go to secondary channels like comic book stores and Barnes and Noble. you see no small press stuff at all, d20 or non-d20. you see WotC and White Wolf and maybe Chaosium or some other major RPG publisher.
when you look online, it's different. there are swarms of tiny d20 companies. most of these only sell online. true, when you go to RPGNet (my primary source for game reviews,) the sheer quantity of small-press d20 products seems to swamp out the products from the large companies. in this sense, you could say the phenomenal small-press growth has "clogged the channels" -- but online sales and RPGNet reviews were never major channels for pre-d20 WotC, White Wolf, or other companies. certainly, I've never heard of a gamestore ordering something just because it was mentioned on RPGNet.
plus, the small press d20 companies are probably not getting much in the way of sales. most of those reviews for upstart products on RPGNet complain about poor quality and little depth. most of the companies seem to produce one or two products, then give up. people just aren't buying game products unless there's a lot of buzz: I heard tons of positive stuff about the Riddle of Steel, Sorcerer, Donjon, Godlike, Little Fears, and the Eden games, as well as the Scarred Lands products, but only one ore two negative reviews about the bulk of the small press d20 products before the products were forgotten forever. the people who talk about buying games talk about buying the postive stuff, not the negative stuff.
I'm completely doubting the game insider's complaint.
my guess is that his complaint has not much to do with economics, really, and more to do with ego. if he says "I'm a game writer/publisher," he doesn't feel special anymore, because almost anyone can be a game publisher these days. it makes him feel cheap. I doubt his job was threatened (until he posted his comments in a public forum, that is.)
Quote from: Matt GwinnI do agree with the guy on one point; there is a lot of crap out there that is simply wasting space. The question is, is the existence of that crap keeping my game or someone elses off the shelf? Is there such a thing as too many games? Does the gaming industry have a signal to noise ratio?
Well, my other hobby is video games, classic video games. There was something that is referred to as the big crash of '84 where sales were actually up from the previous year, but there was such a glut of product on the market, everyone wound up with a much smaller piece from the larger pie. The result, Coleco and Mattel closed their electronics division with Coleco eventually giving up the ghost, Atari changed hands a few times until the were recently purchased by Infogrames, and most of the smaller companies closed up shop with Activision being one of the few exceptions.
This sounds pretty grim but it ignores one very important fact: RPGs are not video games. Expecting the RPG market to behave in any way like the video game market of the early 80's is foolhardy. The crash of '84 was what happens when a mainstream fad suddenly hits the wall. RPGs are not a mainstream fad. Never was. If anything in RPGs is even remotely close to the video game crash, it might be d20/OGL. It took a few years for video games to crash. But that may have happened already. I don't know.
Anyway, this really doesn't effect most people. My LGS has its d20 section and it has its non-d20 section. Shelf space for all.
Quote from: PramasQuote from: Le Joueur... Why don't they slash their overhead and work outsourced with a boatload of freelancers; if they focus on finding reliable talent and use their expertise in marketing and presentation, they can make their skills payoff more than the volume discount used to.
... Most RPG companies already outsource writing and art to freelancers.
...The rest will be done by freelancers, as will all the art, all the editing, and some of the graphic design...
How about freelancers in marketing and presentation, which seems to be what Fang is talking about. People who sell the books rather than the people who put the books together in first place.
Hi.
Now that we're done (I hope) bashing non-Indie companies, let's consider other options. My theory is that the "Big Game Company Guy" knows what he's talking about, in a limited sense. Here's what he knows: his company's games aren't selling. Here's what else he knows: rumor is that the Indies are why. He didn't manufacture this; it's an old, old claim (these little fringe deviants are taking jobs away from Our Boys). And all this stuff about free trade and capitalism is missing the point. With a market this small, there ain't no level playing field, and there's not going to be.
Think of it this way: the big companies aren't making as much money now, and blame the Indies, to which the response here is essentially, "Tough. If you made as good products as we do, you'd get your market." Okay, so have all of you noticed that you're now getting all that money instead? C'mon, speak up, those of you that have made a net profit in the, say, $10,000 range last year or so. Okay, so it's just not a simple closed-market system problem.
Here's a worry for you: Suppose the big companies die (they won't, really, but this is as much an extreme case as is the closed-market theory above). Who's going to buy games? Who's got the advertising power to convince new buyers to buy things? The hobby will contract, there will be fewer buyers, so less money will come in. There is not a fixed sum of money being spent on games reliably; that sum will fluctuate, based on lots of factors (I'm sure the economy tanking doesn't help encourage people to spend money on new d20 supplements, for example). This is the same kind of theory that caused a number of acquaintances of mine to invest heavily in Magic Cards a few years back, since "They're worth X, and that will increase." Sure, a few people actually made money that way, but a lot of them now have shoeboxes full of worthless cards, because the field contracted.
Okay, so let me suggest that there's an alternative approach here. I don't have hard data here; it's just a theory.
1. Start with the Big RPG Company (from here on in BRC). It works like an ordinary publisher, albeit with a crappy distribution model and a lot of unprofessional stuff going on (like no accounts receivable and whatnot). So when books don't sell at all, they get sent back from the retailer, and the BRC has to figure out why or they're really screwed.
2. Here's the retailer. I'm talking about the hobbyist retailer, not Barnes and Noble, which doesn't devote space to anything not from a BRC, usually. Anyway, he's got a lot of problems to deal with, and a lot of factors:
A. There's only so much shelf space. He needs to maximize profit-margin for said space.
B. The books often come out in August, which is a really slow sales period. Why? Because the industry is stupid (why not Christmas?). So the big deal for getting new customers is students, who show up in town around September, perhaps with money to burn in their pockets. So we want stuff that will appeal to 18 year-olds.
C. There are thousands of new products every year. Yes, thousands. So how the hell am I supposed to know which ones are going to sell? Few products stay on the shelves long enough before getting pushed out by new stuff to gain a track record. Also, if they're new, there's not going to be a lot of "buzz," because there's nothing to buzz about. So I prioritize:
(1) Is this thing similar to something that has sold well recently?
(2) Does this thing come from somebody that has done reliable business recently?
(3) Does this thing look like the sort of slick, pretty stuff 18 year-olds seem to want?
(4) Does it hit the sort of currently-fashionable version of personal angst that I hear my customers yapping about?
(5) Is it expensive enough that my markup will make it worthwhile?
(6) It is particularly physically large (bad) or small (good) and so somewhat alters the ratio of space to profit?
(7) If it doesn't sell, what are the chances I can get rid of it for a token loss instead of a total loss (i.e. does it come from a BRC)?
D. My business will not make me rich. I know that. I'm in this business (listen up guys: this should sound familiar) because I want to be involved in this hobby I love full-time, make enough to live on, and get to know lots of other people like me. When a customer comes in and wants to talk about the new cool game he's heard about, I would like (it's not always possible, but this is my dream) to be able to chat about it with him, not only because I want to make money selling that game, but because I want to read it and play it. I don't want to have to carry fringe gaming products I hate, but I will if they make me enough profit to keep in business. I want to be a mainstay and center of the hobby community I love.
3. Okay, so now the BRC says to the retailer: "You sent our books back again. Why?"
Retailer: "Because nobody bought them, or at least, not fast enough that I can afford to keep them on my shelves when there's lots of new stuff coming out."
BRC: "Why are your shelves so crowded?"
Ret: "Because there are a hundred million little companies cranking stuff out, and you know, I have to take a chance once in a while. Besides, my customers want to see new stuff all the time. I really really rely on my return business, and if those guys see the same products, they leave my shop."
BRC: "But where is all this new stuff coming from?"
Ret: "Well, some of it from you, obviously, but there's all these other people out there. I can't keep up. I don't know what's hot, because 'hot' lasts about 10 seconds. And then the worst thing is that my customers decide that they can find out what's 'hot' by checking the Internet, and there are all these games that think they're so great because they have no middleman, just PDF crap, you know? But I can't make a dime on that! Why would they do this to me? Don't they remember the good old days [see Ron's Myth article] of Weird Harry's Game Emporium? Why are they so unwilling to allow me a tiny profit margin? Why do they hate me so? <sob>"
BRC: "There, there. Those goddamn Indies. Don't worry, we'll fix 'em."
That, in essence, is my theory of why this BRC guy thinks the Indies are at fault. I really don't think it's because we're outselling them, nor because the BRCs are just whiners.
I'm sorry, clehrich, but that still amounts to only so much whining <sob>
Maybe I have a better view of these people. The market is shifting, away from game stores and towards the internet and downloading free PDFs. (at least that's what you'd said above)
Now, they could complain about how this is taking business away from their sales, or they could do something about it. Everyone complains about the weather but no one does anything about it. If the market is indeed changing then they need to shift business tactics or they will flounder and eventually close up shop. If the market really isn't shifting but this ia a fad of sorts, then they need to stock their rescources to wait it out. This goes for the game retailer as well as the publisher.
And you lost me (and some other I would guess) with this:
QuoteI'm in this business (listen up guys: this should sound familiar) because I want to be involved in this hobby I love full-time, make enough to live on, and get to know lots of other people like me.
Emphasis mine. I point to Ron's post on page on of this thread. You (indefinate hypethetical you, not you personally) are not guarenteed to make enough to live on. Many here have day jobs. That's because this is their hobby, not their job.
My brother has a hobby buying and selling musical equipment on the side. His job is a teacher (yes. scary isn't it?) He might make a profit selling and trading Amps, guitars and such or he might take a loss. In either case it doesn't matter so long has he never loses more than he can afford to lose (and he calls me with a request to borrow a few hundred buck) He has fun doing it, which is why he does it. And if he makes a little extra to take his wife out for a nice dinner, then that's great. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen.
Ron had said at one point that the PDF Sorcerer never made him much more than to cover bus fare (he hasn't released any info on how the hard copy version is doing) But that's fine. It is his hobby. It's great that he earned enough to cover bus fare.
These guys are trying to eek out a living in this market. At this point, I'm sick of bashing them as well so I'm going to say "Good luck" and "You'll need it" and be done with it.
I'm finding this discussion interesting. As a librarian, I interact with publishers on a regular basis. And just last week, I had a meeting with one supplier account rep who was trying to understand why our total purchases were down this past year. (Answer: we can get some titles cheaper & faster from another source, and we've been selecting titles not covered by said supplier.)
The rpg industry is not alone in being affected by the increasing number of players in the publishing field.
Julie
p.s. Reading the arguments about the indie competition preventing the livelihood of other, more deserving individuals reminds me of similar arguments made as to why women shouldn't be allowed to enter the workforce.
Jack,
I'm not saying that they're not whining, or that they're right about Indies. What I'm saying is that it's not all the BRC's fault. What worries me here is that we're setting up a deep antagonism between Indies and BRCs, and that's really not good for anyone.
To put it very directly:
The BRC guys are apparently saying that the problem is the Indies. I think they're wrong, and I've tried to supply a hypothesis about where that idea came from. We want to quash that rumor: where is the real problem, is there anything that we can do about it, and what can or should the BRCs do about it?
The Indie response, in this thread, is, "Ha ha, sucks to be you, we hate you anyway." This is not helpful.
We're all part of one industry, like it or not. If we don't like the way the industry works, laughing at the big-money guys isn't a good way to fix it. The problem is getting people to buy games, preferably ours (whoever we are). This will not be solved by internecine conflict.
This whole thing sounds a bit like Microsoft whining because people can buy a computer and install some other operating system than Windows.
Or Pepsi getting nervous because Pathmark decides to devote a foot-and-a-half of one shelf to Canfield's Diet Chocolate Soda or Vernor's Ginger Ale.
In other words, just a bit ridiculous.
Quote from: clehrichThe Indie response, in this thread, is, "Ha ha, sucks to be you, we hate you anyway." This is not helpful.
OK, on this we can agree.
Quote from: clehrichBRC: "There, there. Those goddamn Indies. Don't worry, we'll fix 'em."
That, in essence, is my theory of why this BRC guy thinks the Indies are at fault. I really don't think it's because we're outselling them, nor because the BRCs are just whiners.
I don't think that's necessarily the case, at least as it pertains to my friend that I had the discussion with. It's more a problem of too many games in the system clogging it up. He doesn't have a problem with indy games, so long as they do their own thing and don't integrate themselves into an already screwed up system. He's actually all for people designing new games and making a go at it. He's just opposed to them using the same distribution system.
Quote from: clehrichWe're all part of one industry, like it or not. If we don't like the way the industry works, laughing at the big-money guys isn't a good way to fix it. The problem is getting people to buy games, preferably ours (whoever we are). This will not be solved by internecine conflict.
This is where part of the problem comes about. Some of the big fish don't consider us to be a part of the industry and don't think we deserve to be part of it because we haven't payed our dues.
Quote from: Juliep.s. Reading the arguments about the indie competition preventing the livelihood of other, more deserving individuals reminds me of similar arguments made as to why women shouldn't be allowed to enter the workforce.
During the previously mentioned debate I made the remark that requireing Vanity Press publishers to use alternate methods of distribution was the game industry equivalent of separate water fountains. I think I went to far with that one, but it seems equivalent.
,Matt G.
Hi Chris,
Your perception of the communal response is, I think, not accurate.
Let's take a look at my response: No one owes you a living. What's the implication, to the BRC guy?
Is it, "Fuck you and your stupidity?" No, it's not. Perceiving (inferring) it this way is quite the low-self-esteem thing to do and receives a shrug from me.
The actual implications are:
1) Scale back your publishing ambitions such that they are not your primary source of income. Please note: this is not saying "run it like a hobby with no attention to profit." The career/hobby dichotomy is a false one.
2) Discover means of promotion and sales that focus on end-use customers rather than the distributors and retailer-advertising. Establish a community and communication system for these end-users.
3) Do, however, develop and strengthen three-tier ties and means of distribution that reflect actual sales and use; establish personal contacts with those reliable retailers who understand the audience for your game.
4) Discover and participate in the subculture of multiple-reciprocal ties in publishing. Tundra Sales Organization is one example; the Forge itself is another.
5) Define "success" for yourself in a directly-assessed, realizable way. Neither market-share (selling more copies than some other company) nor "just get it on the shelf" are recommended.
6) Understand and consider the options of ownership: self-publishing, freelancing, leasing, and so forth. Choose the one you want and understand its implications.
The real point of all the responses so far is to say, "Learn." Every assumption in the BRC comment is incorrect. Anyone who states it needs to learn some things. The first thing is my initial comment. The second things are listed as #1-6 above.
Some final points: Jack, I've always been forthcoming about Adept Press finances. I put $5000 into the company as seed money, mainly for the first printing. After that, every single Adept expense has been paid for by Adept profits. Those expenses include three supplements (art, layout, printing, etc), one mini-supplement, half the cost of last year's three-booth space at GenCon, last year's trip to Origins, last year's trip to Las Vegas for the GAMA Trade Show, server space costs, the second printing of Sorcerer last October, and various promotional efforts. They do not include a paycheck for myself; Adept Press is a business, but it's not my job.
Adept Press is still in the black.
Best,
Ron
IMO, and you won't be surprised to hear this either, I agree with greyorm. This is the normal operation of the system, and so to a large degree business as usual. Industrialism finds most of the physical problems of production trivial, its access to markets that counts. Technology moves so fast that the barrier to entry steadily falls, and the relative profitability of existing machinery drops. Competition for market share stimulates overproduction that clogs the channels.
In Britain we have more cars than we dispose of, more fridges than we can dispose of, and the EU certainly has more food than it can dispose of. Now we have more games than we can dispose of, what else is new?
Its also correct to point the finger at the big companies, but not in a moralistic way. The little companies and private presses are doing exactly the right thing, exploiting new technology to gain a competitive edge. They're getting relatively more bang for their buck - consider that the Connections forum here is duplicating many of the de facto services that a publisher would have carried out in say, oh, 1970, and for which it could take a cut. In many cases, IT in one form or another has been the particular catalyst that changed the dynamic.
Of course the other alternative to clogged channels is to expand the market. Here I feel that the cynicism in regards mainstream bookstores is misplaced, for several reasons. All these stores are facing much the same problem - overproduction means demand is quirky. What they want is a flow of new quirky things; Blackwells on Tottenham Court Road has a section for kitsch stationary, a section for "toy" books or various sorts, one for fantasy fiction. In fact it even used to carry some RPG's, but stopped - a half shelf of a few mainstream products didn't attracte RPGers, and not many others were interested. But sorceror wouldn't look out of place in such an environment, or something like whispering vault. I mean, they even cater to comics fans somewhat, and have star wars technical diagrams and similar sundries. This is where the small press should be, IMO.
[as asides from even my own digression, I think developing RPG's in paperback format is probably a good idea, and that Civ 3 came with a 232 page manual]
Quote from: Jack Spencer JrQuote from: PramasQuote from: Le Joueur... Why don't they slash their overhead and work outsourced with a boatload of freelancers; if they focus on finding reliable talent and use their expertise in marketing and presentation, they can make their skills payoff more than the volume discount used to.
... Most RPG companies already outsource writing and art to freelancers.
...The rest will be done by freelancers, as will all the art, all the editing, and some of the graphic design...
How about freelancers in marketing and presentation, which seems to be what Fang is talking about. People who sell the books rather than the people who put the books together in first place.
On rereading what Fang said, I'm not not sure what he was saying (since he uses "they" throughout and you can read who "they" are two different ways). To answer your question, yes, there are some people/companies that you can go to for sales and marketing. Green Ronin uses Osseum Entertainment for sales and fulfillment and they've done a great job for us. Liz Fulda does freelance marketing under the name Sphinx Group. Aldo from Wingnut does sales and fulfillment as Impressions. Outfits like this are a relatively new development (last three years or so), but they can take be very helpful to small companies. I am not, by trade, a salesman. The Osseum guys are and they do a much better job than I did in GR's early days.
Hi Ron,
I'm really not making the argument you think I am. Let me try to rephrase.
The claim has apparently been made that "the indie industry is clogging the channels." This doesn't appear to be true. So where does the claim come from? I have tried to suggest one way that it might arise.
Now this claim has largely been described as "whining." The big companies have been compared to Microsoft, the Evil Empire of the computer industry. Several people have, however, remarked on this response as "bashing" and so forth. I think there is a good bit of truth to this: the idea that White Wolf, for example, has (1) nearly total control over what consumers buy, and (2) enormous monetary and other resources to force that down your throat (i.e. that they're like Microsoft) is silly.
The related argument, that it's all free trade and hip-hoorah for capitalism, does not make sense to me economically. Lots and lots of people are attracted to this hobby in the first place by things like Vampire. We do not have the resources to accomplish this goal, i.e. of drawing people in from nowhere. So we are to some degree reliant on the advertising capability of larger companies. If we then steal their readers because our games are better, great. If they whine about that, it's their own damn fault as everyone says. But I really doubt that the big problem for White Wolf is that everyone in Vampire campaigns has decided to switch to Sorcerer. Wonderful game though it is, I just can't see it having that big an effect on WW's sales.
All I'm saying, then is:
(1) It's not a good thing if a lot of folks out there, including for example those initially drawn to the hobby by (say) White Wolf, think that Indie games are bad for the industry.
(2) If we want to improve matters, bashing the big companies isn't really going to help much. As a politer variant, telling them to stop whining and get out of the business is not terribly helpful either.
I think the ideal situation is a healthy, successful, growing business of big companies. They draw lots and lots of people in, and get them hankering for more. Then these people start increasingly saying, "You know what? This was okay when I was 13, but now it stinks. Isn't there something better?" And they come over to the indies.
There is a third category here, which I haven't discussed because I don't know anything much about it, of people who really honestly believe that their start-up business of cranking out d20 supplements is going to put their kids through college. If those people whine, I have less than no sympathy. I much prefer Fang Langford's complaint: "My game design is slow because I have a real job and responsibilities." Annoying it is (I mean for Fang), but those are reasonable priorities. If White Wolf were actually saying, "We're starving to death in the gutter because of you indies," I'd laugh with the rest of you. But I really don't think that's the case, do you?
Quote from: PramasQuote from: Jack Spencer JrQuote from: PramasQuote from: Le Joueur... Why don't they slash their overhead and work outsourced with a boatload of freelancers; if they focus on finding reliable talent and use their expertise in marketing and presentation, they can make their skills payoff more than the volume discount used to.
... Most RPG companies already outsource writing and art to freelancers.
...The rest will be done by freelancers, as will all the art, all the editing, and some of the graphic design...
How about freelancers in marketing and presentation, which seems to be what Fang is talking about. People who sell the books rather than the people who put the books together in first place.
On rereading what Fang said, I'm not sure what he was saying
What I said? I
said 'times are a changing, anybody who wants to do business the old fashioned way better get ready to go the way of the dinosaur¹' (mostly because of print on demand and internet advances).
With the above, I meant that instead of depending upon 'what worked before' (such as volume discounts and few competitors), the company in question ought to take a hard look at 'what they're good at' and jettison what they can get for cheaper
no matter what that is. ' Do what yer good at and buy the rest cheaply'...good advice? I'm surprised at the mythology behind whatever 'that guy' thinks; aren't the supposed villains in his complaint just as subject to market saturation as he is? (No matter who 'the big guy' is, or 'the little guy,' both face the same market; any complaints about being 'forced out' are just whining on either side.)
Quote from: PramasTo answer your question, yes, there are some people/companies that you can go to for sales and marketing. Green Ronin uses Osseum Entertainment for sales and fulfillment and they've done a great job for us. Liz Fulda does freelance marketing under the name Sphinx Group. Aldo from Wingnut does sales and fulfillment as Impressions. Outfits like this are a relatively new development (last three years or so), but they can take be very helpful to small companies. I am not, by trade, a salesman. The Osseum guys are and they do a much better job than I did in GR's early days.
A wonderful model. Technology is destroying the advantage of vertical integration as quickly as it eats the volume discount percentage. (My business philosophy is 'let them get bigger, that just creates more niche markets.') Now what was the complaint again?
About the only kinda complaints I will tolerate are ones like...
Quote from: ...where clehrichI much prefer Fang Langford's complaint: "My game design is slow because I have a real job and responsibilities." Annoying it is (I mean for Fang), but those are reasonable priorities.
But then that's just me.
Fang Langford
¹ Always trying to stay one step ahead of the paleontologists (they finally caught up with my 'dino-fuzz' theory - their name, not mine), I expect any day now their going to discover that what really killed of the dinosaurs was...(wait for it)...
Lack of Oxygen.
So far every scenario they've given would have been much harder on the smaller, wetter animals, yet throughout the supposed 'period of extinction' it was strictly the large land animals (and their air-breathing aquatic brethren) who took it on the chin.
As corroboration, I recently saw the skeleton of the Triassic equivalent of the alligator; now I'm no scientist, but the rib cage
was in exact proportion to the modern animal. I find it hard to believe - given the square-cube law - that that creature could keep
so much more meat oxygenated with such lung capacity.
But that's a subject of a totally different forum.
Quote from: Matt GwinHe's just opposed to them using the same distribution system.
To me, this statement says it all: despite Rich's protest, it obviously it IS about capitalism or free trade marketing...or rather, the understanding of such and how it works.
The complaint voiced by this individual was, to paraphrase, "Sure, you can publish paperback novels, but we want you to sell them to people who don't buy our paperback novels." Nothing more, nothing less. I honestly have to scratch my head at this because it's like any company going to their competitors and saying, "Gee, guys, you've really cut into our market recently...maybe you could stop selling so much product?"
Why? Because he doesn't want me to compete for his company's customers. My product is taking money out of his pocket...wait, that's simple economics, though! All other things being equal, two similar products will always take money away from one another. Hence, what I stated about a Socialist system: if you don't like this fact of free trade, you can always try Socialism and monopolies.
Compare, for example, established group A who produce widgets complaining that upcoming group B who produce widgets is selling to group A's market. Group A states that group B has created a "flood of widgets," which is bad for the market as a whole!
However, the last time I checked, basic free trade doesn't care about the market as a whole...it starts and stops with the widget producer. Group B is looking to get a piece of Group A's action. If Group A wants to hold onto their widget sales, they'll need to do something to get more people to buy their widgets, or they'll have to start laying people off.
You can't avoid this
without getting rid of the competition...there's simply no other way around it in the business model we're talking about. Trying to bully or convince other companies into leaving your market -- such as through demands for "industry standards" or emotional appeals (ie: "I can't feed my kids because you're selling the same product!") -- is one way to secure the market...its also called monopolizing, and its illegal.
Let's ask: does group B have anything against group A trying to make a living selling widgets? No (though obviously it would be easier for group B to sell their widgets if group A went out of business and were thus the only widget supplier in existance...and vice versa, which is where the complaint of group A actually stems from).
When group A complains about sales by group B, who has upset the established market, group A is showing they do have something against anyone else trying make a living in the same field. Simply, group A wants the whole pie without a fight, and screw anyone else who tries to take a piece of it.
However, in a capitalist economical model, anyone and everyone can try to take a piece of the pie you have your finger in, because it isn't
your pie...there is no established channel through which funds are "supposed to" or "should" flow.
Thus whining about this and moaning about people "stealing" or "diluting" or "diminishing" "your" money/customers/etc is inane and shows a complete lack of understanding of business. As well, appealing to concerns about "the market" is a dodge of the issue, because ultimately the one appealing to such is trying to make sure they retain their market share.
Ask yourself, or the complaintant: will the established company put themselves out of business in order to secure or balance the market? Undoubtedly not; yet they expect others to do so? Simply, the complaint is asking everyone else to take an action that the company itself would refuse to take.
So back we go to the idea that group A wants the pie and is saying "screw you" as much as the upcoming companies are saying "screw you" back by continuing to produce.
Is this some sort of slam against "the establishment" or does it create a divide between indie publishers and the big companies?
I really don't see a judgement of the big companies at all in this thread or us vs. them rhetoric. We're talking about a specific individual's comments. This could as easily be some indie publisher railing against the big companies for making it hard to get any shelf-space with their "overpriced, glossy garbage" as it is some established publisher railing against indie companies for taking up "their" shelf-space with "cheap, amateur garbage."
Is this or any of my other statements some-sort of "hip-hooray" for capitalism or free-trade? @#!!! NO! It is, however, the way things work; it's reality...and you're right, Rich, it doesn't make sense economically, which is precisely one reason why I'm anti-capitalist.
But your "ideal situation," while certainly logical from an overall market-standpoint, is flawed because it requires that small companies restrain themselves (for this noble market goal) and just let the established big companies crank out the product and pull in the majority of the cash...it doesn't allow for growth or competition.
It requires a synergy between competitors, and we don't live in an economically synergistic society.
And I also agree with you, Rich, how do we -- as a hobby -- attract more individuals to our hobby? That's a good question, but one we have also addressed before in previous threads here.
Quote from: talysmanI'm just not seeing a huge quantity of small-press d20 in the stores. when I go to my favorite, best-stocked gamestore, I see:
- a whole lot of WotC d20 stuff;
- a whole lot of d20 stuff from other major, pre-d20 companies (White Wolf, Chaosium;)
- a lot of d20 stuff by a small number of companies whose history I'm not clear on, but I suspect had pre-d20 existence, based on the breadth and (physical) quality of their product lines;
- hardly any d20 stuff from new companies with small product lines.
[/list:u]
The first thing to remember is that games and companies can be very regional in appeal. There are some stores that still kick ass with Shadowfist, while others don't stock it at all. While you may not have seen it, that doesn't mean it didn't get into the channel.
Here's a list of d20 companies that did not exist before August, 2000, whose products I have seen in stores (and my store samplings come from Seattle, Vancouver (BC), Minneapolis, Chicago, Boston, NYC, DC area, London, and Leeds).
Auran, Bad Axe Games, Bard Productions, Bastion Press, Citizen Games, Dark Portal Games, Fiery Dragon, Gaslight Press, Goodman Games, Guildhouse Games, Hammerdog, Living Imagination, Mongoose, MonkeyGod Enterprises, Mystic Eye Games, Natural 20 (via MEG), Necromancer Games, OtherWorld Creations, Pandahead Productions, Paradigm Concepts, Perpetrated Press, Privateer Press, RPG Objects, Scarab Games, Second World Simulations, Thunderhead Games (absorbed by MEG), Troll Lord Games, Tyranny Games, United Playtest, and Viking Games.
That doesn't take into account pre-existing companies that have done d20, like AEG, Atlas, Fantasy Flight, WW, and most lately GOO and even DP9.
Most companies above have at least two releases under their belts. That's a lot of game books. Individually, those companies don't affect the system but collectively they do.
Quoteheck, when you go to secondary channels like comic book stores and Barnes and Noble. you see no small press stuff at all, d20 or non-d20. you see WotC and White Wolf and maybe Chaosium or some other major RPG publisher.
No surprise there. The book trade is difficult to get into and has its own peculiarities (and dangers, like returns). The book trade is also roughly half of WotC's business, which is one of the ways it stays on top.
First of I agree the statement probably isn't true...In my local game store I see WW, WotC, GURPS, Palladium, Chaosium, AEG, and the remains of FASA almost exclusively. There are a few other bits and pieces; like games on consignment from a dying distributor.
But, let us suppose for a moment it is true.
I hate to suggest this kind of behavior, but I'm going to stop being an idealist for a moment. Big companies have some common solutions to this 'small company threat' issue.
Threaten the channel's pocket book. If you don't put only Windows on your systems then Windows will cost more for you, if we even let you have it. Technically illegal in the US, but easily greyed if done correctly. Especially if not done to fellow big companies that could fight about it.
Push out the small companies with volume. Apparently, White Wolf wants to be the #1 third party supplier of D20 products; probably because they know might makes right. If the retailer sees a line of two products from Mom & Pop studios and a line of twenty products from WW, his best chance for supported sales is getting the customers into the bigger line.
Buy the small company. If their product is squishing yours, then you could be making that profit instead. If their product is just cutting into yours, then you can shelve it or neglect to promote it; making it as if it never existed.
I bet there a more excellent methods I've neglected, but I'm really not a very good cutthroat capitalist.
Hmm, the devil seems to be having some trouble finding an advocate here. I'll see what I can do.
One more shady practice can be added to Cruciel's list: Sell your product for below cost to drive competitors out of business. Which at least under some circumstances is considered an unfair business practice and is even occasionally illegal.
That gives at least a remote thin straw to grasp for the idea that underpricing one's products might not be entirely ethical.
And if one further describes pricing so that the profits, even over the long term, are extremely unlikely to ever compensate the publisher for the time spent developing the product, as "underpricing," well, then, it's clear that most of the indies are bound to burn in hell for their sins.
I can think of many counterarguments, but as the devil's advocate it would be unethical for me to speak against my client's interests. So I'll let others try.
- Walt