In TFOB, i assume there will be some coverage of oriental martial arts, however i have some specific questions about the applications of specific types of martial arts to the game. As a practitioner of Nimpo, the original form of combat and lifestyle of the ninja, Combat Ki, am Americanized martial art focusing on intense physical/mental conditioning allowing the wielder to sustain blows that are fatal to others, and Jeet Kun Do, the martial art developed by Bruce Lee, I would like to see how some of the skills in these martial arts would be applied to the game.
In Nimpo, one of the main focuses when it comes to open combat is agility and out-meneuvering of your opponent. My sensei has been practicing Nimpo for many years now and I have seen him jump over an eight foot hurtle without using his hands, drop a charging sumo wrestler from a standing position, and throw a man three times his weight accross a room effortlessly.
Combat Ki is a unique art which teaches the practitioner to withstand immense blows to vital areas such as the neck, grion, chest, and head that would normally kill someone. With intense mental and physical training, a skilled master can withstand a blow to the jugular by a boxer and sustain no injury.
Jeet Kun Do is a very practical martial art that teaches one to use an opponents momentum against him in order to gain an advantage against him. Bruce Lee developed this from a mix of many other styles of fighting form all over the world.
My question is how would all of these extraordinary abilities be incorporated into the game? TROS is a frighteningly realistic RPG, and it stresses that a character is still a mortal like everyone else, but there are still many forms of combat not covered in TROS where the practitioners make knights look like mice. Blows from the hands of a Nimpo master easily rival that of a war hammer or club. Punches have been recorded as delivering 2500 pounds of force by men of 65 years of age. THe current rules for unarmed combat in ROS do not do justice to oriental styles of martial arts, however suitable they may be to a back-alley brawler or wrestler.
What are some ways that the extraordinary abilities of Ki energy might be incorporated inot the game? I was thinking of a new priority labeled Ki, much like the priority of Force i have seen for Star Wars ROS.
Any suggestions would be welcomed and i can provide additional explanations of any of these martial arts or different styles if necessary.
Also, i would be happy to give input as far as oriental combat goes in TFOB.
Thanks as always,
Mordacc
Firstof all, no offense is intended here, I just have to ask abou the combat ki... HOW do you practice that? "ok sensei, I believe I am ready.... kick me in the jimmy!" somehowI am reminded of Kung Pow when the Chosen one checks to see if he too posesses the "special skill"....
I imagine that mistakes are easy to spot..... seriously, how do you build up to that?
Edit: I think that mechanically speaking you are talking LARGE ASS combat pools for those masters, if you have a combat pool of 30 something in unarmed then TROS handles that well, and you are talking about a 65 year old MASTER. As for taking shotsin the jimmy, I suppose a major gift of "the special skill" would work....
High toughness=harder to hurt
High strength=more damage
High willpower=resist pain
The only thing you'd need to add would be a specialized first aid/medical type skill to represent internal arts to do stuff like reduce shock and bloodloss post fight. Internal arts are often just another part of training, and take a fair amount of time to develop, so that's the reason I suggest making it simply part of the stats. Just like "mean old man" strength, your strength score doesn't have to reflect giant bulging muscles, but could simply be a result of whatever makes you strong.
From the few folks who I've met who practiced ninjistu, they used a lot of Full Evade and Duck and Weave. Jeet Kun Do folks used a lot of counter(stop kicks) and buying initiative.
Chris
Okay, I was skeptic at first, but when you said "...are still many forms of combat not covered in TROS where the practitioners make knights look like mice," you lost all credibility. Frankly, when "Eastern Martial Artists" start bragging about "superhuman" abilities (i.e. surviving wounds that would be fatal to others, etc.), they lose all credibility in my eyes. While I'm sure your 65-year-old master can do impressive things, I have yet to see an example of "super Ki abilities" in the real world. As for eastern martial arts having some sort of special insight into sword fighting or unarmed combat--as I learn more and more about the martial arts of my heritage (i.e. Western Martial Arts), I have come to realize that they are just different cultures solving the same problems. Not that they aren't effective, but when comparing east versus west, the biggest surprise is the number if similarities. Really, the biggest difference is the eastern tendency to incorporate spirituality and philosophy into the Martial Arts.
Sorry if this seems like a flame or personal attack, it's just that I felt that I had to add my 2 cents.
How is this post game related? Well, to my eyes, adding an eastern element is more one of terminology and differences in equipment than combat rules. Miyamoto Musashi's 2-weapon style would be pretty similar to the western two-weapon styles. A single-sword (katana) style is a cut-and-thrust style (the real difference might be in the special maneuver preferences). This still hasn't covered some of the non-Japanese traditional weapons: the "Tai Chi Sword" (can't remember the proper name), although given the width of the blade, it isn't going to be as effective for cutting as an arming sword (cutting damage would probably be somewhat better than a rapier slash). Of course many of the traditional unbladed weapons are modified peasant tools--some much more effective than others. Pole arms are pole arms, so the current rules probably work as given. Such weapons as nunchakus, sai, jitte, etc., would be extremely limited in damage potential against an armored opponent (although the last two would be good off-hand weapons for parrying). Remember, peasants used such weapons because they were not able to obtain or possess swords, not because they thought that their modified farm implements were better than swords (the same goes for them learning unarmed combat instead of sword-fighting styles).
Really, I think that adding Eastern styles is mostly one of terminology with a few items added to the equipment list. Sure a few new maneuvers and styles would need to be added, but nothing that would require a rules overhaul.
--Steve
Ninjas are totally sweet! I once saw a ninja kill an entire town because somebody dropped a spoon! :-)
[/plaigirized joke mode]
Dude, your sensei should be trying for the Guiness Book of Records. Here's the current record holder:
QuoteJavier Sotomayor of Cuba, achieved the record height of 2.43 m (7 ft 11.6 in) on March 4, 1989, in Budapest, Hungary.
For that matter, he should be in the Ultimate Fighting Championship. He can apparently take out Tank Abbot without breaking a sweat.
I've seen a lot of martial arts, and the only time i've seen someone drop someone as strong and massive as a charging sumo wrester from a standing position was in 2 situations: a). a movie, or b). the sumo wrestler "played along"
Same goes for throwing people.
I've seen a guy who knows Savate destroy "Martial Arts Masters".(Savate is french, btw, if you've never heard of it). I've seen plain ol' greco-roman wrestling destroy 'martial arts masters'. Same goes for "big guy who punches stuff real hard, but not much else".
Anyway on to the rest of my rant.
this also bothers me:
Quoteimmense blows to vital areas such as the neck, grion, chest, and head that would normally kill someone
It bothers me, because i can envision these combat masters just standing there while swords reflect off their heads, and then hurling the dude with the sword half way across town. This sounds like TROS Supers to me. :-P
Quoteextraordinary abilities of Ki energy might be incorporated inot the game
....here come the Kewl Powerz.......
I'm trying to say that maybe invulnerable asian 'martial arts masters' should be Gifted, rather than just ordinary joe army dude. This would satisfy everybody, I think.
You get your Ki powers instead of Vagaries, where you can do really cool stuff like balance on the end of your enemy's sword for a second (Partial Evasion on a thrust, with a High TN, Ki pool expenditure, instead of Spell pool) and then kick them in the face (you gained initiative for a successful defence, Kick to Area V).
This would be in keeping with the mystical Orient, without being crazy. Ninjas really could disappear in a puff of smoke and walk on water. Kung fu masters really could leap 20 feet to the top of a bamboo shaft and fight perfectly fine, through Ki (or whatever).
This could go somewhere.
That would also explain why all those Ancient Masters were ancient...
Yes, it would, wouldn't it?:-)
Quote
I've seen a lot of martial arts, and the only time i've seen someone drop someone as strong and massive as a charging sumo wrester from a standing position was in 2 situations: a). a movie, or b). the sumo wrestler "played along"
I've done it to someone as large as a sumo wrestler (not as strong though). Of course I was almost as large as him and was stronger than him so I guess that doesn't count. :P
Mordacc, not to be mean, your post gives us normal eastern martial arts practioners a bad name. We are not super heroes.
Also, most of your ideas can be easily placed into tRoS. High strength will cause your punches to explode skulls (Stupid 7 STR 8 TOU brawler!). Amp tougness and strength. I don't know how to do the Jumping thing without magic though.
-Joshua
Well take in mind in not saying that going in and practicing karate for a couple years makes you able to fly. In talking about a select few masters in the world who have devoted their life to martial arts. And frankly, yes, there are some eastern martial arts that are similar to western styles but pit a judo master against a greek wrestler or some other western fighter and i guarentee you jodu wins out. Im not trying to say that knights are worthless, but there are amny styles of fighting that westerners DONT GET.
As far as ki goes, i think an extra priority named Ki would be the best soution to the problem. Vagaries are nice but ki really isnt all that mystical and can be harnessed (to some degree) by anyone. Really, in order to get some of the very raw basics down all you have to do is go to the library and pick up a book on it.[/i]
Also im not trying to insult western styles of fighting, despite what i may sound like. i have great respect for the strength of wrestlers and knights.. i simply was pointing out that, just like the west has amny things the east lacks, so does the east have things the west lacks. THe west generally has more technology and is more equipped for mass combat, as well as a more sensible soldier, unlike the eastern suicide machine. The easts advantages tended to be in hand to hand combat, discipline, and mental/physical/soul (basically the mystical stuff) unification.
ok, I was not trying to offend before, but thats just stupid. That bit about judo vs. Greco roman bit wins the "look Iam absolutely full of it award" now I dont flame much so you know the statement is bad when I get into it so let me just tell a little story about a greco roman wrestler, olympic medal winner and coach at my university who heard someone say basically what you did and so this wrestler decided to show what a load of dung that mental fart actually was and signed up for the ultimate fighting champpionship and not only did he beat the judo guy but every other "martial artist" who joined in and he whooped them good and hard. this is example 1 of many that you really should play the thought game prior to opening your fat yapper.
[/end flame mode]
But should you want to put that flavor into your game please knock yourself out and enjoy, because after all TROS is a FANTASY rpg. [end residual flame mode].
While i dont doubt the skill of your coach, i still have to say that judo would win out. the skill of the challenger may not have been at his level.
also, your coach sounds like quite the combatant, so im sure he known his stuff. im not trying to say that eastern martial arts are better than western styles, im just trying to say that there are many aspects of open hand fighting that the western styles dont practice, such as Ki and other mind/body unification styles. No, i was not trying to sound arrogant and full of it (despite how i may have come accross) and i was not dissing western martial arts.
I will also admit that many people who do take some form of karate or jodu tend to brag alot about their skill and many do get beaten sneseless as a result. THey have simply never been tought that martial arts is about peace, not war.
I think we can settle on the idea that we both strongly disagree with each other then and we should probably leave things at that. You think X I think y, both are mutually exclusive and neither will convince the other. We do agree though that TROS is flexible enough for both x and y however I am sure.
Quote from: MordaccWhile i dont doubt the skill of your coach, i still have to say that judo would win out. the skill of the challenger may not have been at his level.
also, your coach sounds like quite the combatant, so im sure he known his stuff. im not trying to say that eastern martial arts are better than western styles, im just trying to say that there are many aspects of open hand fighting that the western styles dont practice, such as Ki and other mind/body unification styles. No, i was not trying to sound arrogant and full of it (despite how i may have come accross) and i was not dissing western martial arts.
I will also admit that many people who do take some form of karate or jodu tend to brag alot about their skill and many do get beaten sneseless as a result. THey have simply never been tought that martial arts is about peace, not war.
The Ki thing isn't necessarily exclusive to Eastern styles. Sure it is wrapped in a philosophical package, but seriously. Take when I was in American football for example. We were a tiny school, and therefore alot of us had to play both ways. Physical practice alone didn't cut the cream, so to speak. We had to psyche ourselves out mentally and spiritually. We had to make our minds strong, much like the description of Ki. I believe there are many western fighting styles that did similar things. I mean think about the Scotish warriors who had to fight these insurmountable odds against the British army during the days of Willaim Wallace. It wasn't so much just their insane training, but also the mindset, it would have to be against insurmountable odds. As tauman said earlier:
QuoteAs for eastern martial arts having some sort of special insight into sword fighting or unarmed combat--as I learn more and more about the martial arts of my heritage (i.e. Western Martial Arts), I have come to realize that they are just different cultures solving the same problems.
Ashren is right, so, for arguments sake, lets assume in my world i am correct. how would we apply these examples of things i have said to the game. (again, assuming i am correct)
Focus Combat Ki (defensive maneuver).
Pay 1 CP and assign X CP to roll against user's current Toughness. Every success equals a +1 TO that lasts until the end of combat.
Focus Combat Ki (offensive maneuver).
Pay 1 CP and assign X CP to roll against user's current Strength. Every success equals a +1 ST that lasts until the end of combat. Focusing does give the initiative to the opponent.
Want to tone these down? Make the duration one round.
No, I haven't playtested these. Just throwing out ideas.
Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf
Quote from: MordaccNo, i was not trying to sound arrogant and full of it (despite how i may have come accross) and i was not dissing western martial arts.
I don't think you are being arrogant or full of it, but you are being extremely orientalist. Orientalism is the belief that things of the orient are exotic, extremely unlike anything the west has, and innately superior. You clearly believe all of these things regarding eastern martial arts.
Take your judo/wrestling example. You make a huge, sweeping assertion about the total superiority of one style over another based on... what? That style's assertion that it's better? The fact that it's more philosophical (with an underlying unproven assumption that more philosphical = better techniques in practice)? There certainly isn't any actual data indicating anything of the sort.
For an interesting comparison, look at the ultimate fighting championships, extremely skilled fighting competetions open to fighters of any style or background. Year after year, the people who win are consistently either 1) masters of jiu-jutsu or other grappling arts fighting people unfamiliar with their style, or 2) huge pot-bellied rednecks who lift rocks for fun and regularly fight in bar brawls.
All the data I've seen show that beyond a certain level, actual techniques used don't matter much. What matters is amount of training and amount of actual fighting experience. The advantage eastern martial arts have, the reason why they're generally considered to be superior (aside from orientialist biases) is that they are formalized, and as such allow practitioners to begin to train and practice without constantly getting into fights.
The other important aspect of fighting is familiarity with the fighting style of your opponent. Every fighting style has tricks and techniques that can be countered if you are familar with them, but which can catch the unfamiliar off their guard. But when both fighters are very skilled and experienced, that doesn't matter much.
QuoteFocus Combat Ki
Those are actually pretty good, Seth. I don't think I would use them myself (don't see the need, to be honest) but on the whole, pretty good.
Being inherantly magical, I would probably limit their use, perhaps to people with semi-gifted blood (D or E race priority perhaps). I also think that "end of the combat" is probably too much a benefit, while "end of the round" is possibly not enough. A good compromise would be that it lasts a certain number of exchanges, either fix it at 2 or 3 or 4 exchanges, or you could even include it in the mechanic: Instead of spending 1 to activate the power, you spend X, where X is the number of exchanges it will last.
Brian.
Since Ki is a real thing in this world, i would simply have an extra priority named Ki and assign points depending on the priority. these points could then be intigrated into combat meneuvers and other things such as reflex and physical activities
Quote from: MordaccSince Ki is a real thing in this world, i would simply have an extra priority named Ki and assign points depending on the priority. these points could then be intigrated into combat meneuvers and other things such as reflex and physical activities
Did you think perhaps that Ki is already represented well in SAs?
In not exactly sure what you meant by that question but if you meant that all characters already have Ki training which is represented by their SAs then no. It takes alot of practice in order to harness Ki to a level which is effective in combat.
Hey everyone, let's chill on the east vs. west thing, ok? Pretty much unless people hunt down all these masters and get them in a room together and see them do their thing, its just words against words at this point. And really, arguing the superiority of things we're not going to take the effort to test is pretty pointless.
Mordacc had a legitimate question concerning game rules, in a world in which faeries and magic exists, so let's not rip on the idea of what's "real" when we're throwing it into a fantasy world. If folks want to take time to debate real life, I'd say the best thing is for folks to hop on a plane or a greyhound, and see folks do whatever they can do. Otherwise, drop it.
I'll say again what I've said before, fighting techniques are about what weapon you're using, it what area you live in, against whoever you're fighting and what they're using.
For a good portion of Western military history, we're talking mass armies, field combat, arrows raining down on you, and calvary. After that, we're talking rifles and nasty stab-stab with bayonets, and after that, its guns and artillery, then airplanes. Some other countries, where everyone still carries machetes and such, still have machete and knife fighting techniques. Some places, people still hunt, and sometimes fight with spears.
Depending on how common combat is for those people really determines how effective their styles going to be. I hear Italians still have good knife fighters. Spanish are still some of the best horseriders around. The point is, "My master can beat up your master" or "My style is better than your style" is all bullshit. It's about individuals as fighters. I agree that some styles are more effective in combat than others. I believe that good fighters come from all styles, if they use their noggin and realize what's effective and not effective and train hard. My own teacher said, "Boxers are dangerous, because they're one of the few styles that train people to hit properly..."
So let's drop the bragging/that's bullshit stuff and keep it where it belongs. In a real fight.
Chris
Well said Bankuei. [glee] It's such a fun debate though! [/glee]
For TROS rules for the ki powers you describe, I don't think that a ki priority would be the best way to handle it. After all, ki, unlike sorcery in TROS and the Force in Star Wars, is something that everyone has the potential to master. It's a matter of skill or proficiency, perhaps learned gifts, not innate ability.
Actually, I'm not sure that much needs to be changed in the rules. For the ability to withstand tremendous blows, isn't it simplest to just increase the Toughness attribute? What difference does if make if the high Toughness is due to being huge or due to disciplined ki. Both are gained through a combination of talent and training.
The same can be said for strength. In game terms, the ability to hit hard is measured by a combination of strength and proficiency. Martial arts masters would have the ability to hit as hard as a warhammer due to a combination of ki-enhanced strength (ie. a high Strength attribute) and very high proficiency ratings.
Some new martial arts maneuvers would be appropriate though, especially decent kicks, locks, disarming, and aikido-like redirections and throws. Perhaps some gifts to represent some of the more esoteric ki abilities would be appropriate too.
Actually, I've been thinking that most Martial Arts can be fairly easily modeled by the rules for manuvers in TRoS. Fer'instance, I modeled Wing Chun as a martial art the relys almost exclusively on a hand-to-hand version of Bind and Strike. Now, it doesn't sound too impressive, but it is really effective against a standard brawler. I think that there is no need to have an activation cost for hand attacks; a range penalty is punishment enough. After all, the problem with hand to hand strikes isn't hitting them, it's getting them to stay down once you hit them. I don't care what ancient ninja techniques Hung Lo Mak knows, he's gonna die real quick when Joe Blow runs him through. But that is the thing about martial arts. They are very effective under very specific conditions.
By the way, the Ninjutsu hand-to-hand techniques are called NINpo, not Nimpo. At least, that's what Shidoshi Shephen K. Hayes, the first American to learn Togakure-Ryu Ninjutsu says.
I believe either Ninpo or Nimpo are correct terms. Perhaps they are slightly different schools of the same thing im not quite sure. By the way Jon, what armed forces were you in when you got youre "infantry training"?
Quote from: MordaccIn TFOB, i assume there will be some coverage of oriental martial arts, however i have some specific questions about the applications of specific types of martial arts to the game.
...
Jeet Kun Do is a very practical martial art that teaches one to use an opponents momentum against him in order to gain an advantage against him. Bruce Lee developed this from a mix of many other styles of fighting form all over
And this 20th century, unarmed fighting style fits into the TROS period how?
Moreover, spiritless fighting styles - like Wu Shu - seem to have no place in TROS. On the other hand, Shaolin Kung Fu might be a much better match since it's a physical form given to a formless philosophy.
Just my stupid opinions, anyways ....
QuoteSince Ki is a real thing in this world
Can you point me to independently verified corroboration of this fact? If so, please do. Otherwise, i will lump this under your assertation that your "nimpo sensei" is a record breaking high jumper.
That is irrelevant, however.
An
extra priority named Ki? Some questions, then.
1. Are you modifying the character generation system somehow?
2. If so, are you dropping a category, like race or social class?
3. Or are you adding extra priorities (e.g. A, A, B, C, D, E ,F)?
4. If none of the above, then how are characters going to be able to use Ki, since they cannot purchase it without giving something up one of the previously determined categories like Social Class, or Attributes?
All of which are poor solutions, compared to the elegance of making Ki a Sorcery style power.
No matter, i still think that KEWL POWERZ will be nothing but detrimental to the game. Speaking of KEWL POWERZ, has anyone visited http://realultimatepower.net? There is a lot of useful info there too, all about nnjas, and quite factual, apperently.
Ninpo and Nimpo are just different transliterations of the Japanese. They are written and pronounced exactly the same way in Japanese.
Quote from: arxhonCan you point me to independently verified corroboration of this fact?
He was talking about the asian-themed TROS world he was creating martial arts rules for.
QuoteNo matter, i still think that KEWL POWERZ will be nothing but detrimental to the game. Speaking of KEWL POWERZ, has anyone visited http://realultimatepower.net? There is a lot of useful info there too, all about nnjas, and quite factual, apperently.
Now now, lets not be nasty. Why are powers detrimental to the game, if they fit its genre? Is Sorcery detrimental to TROS? Is the Force detrimental to Star Wars? Why then would ki powers be detrimental to an asian themed setting?
That website's a classic though.
It would have to be Ninpo because the syllable nim is not possible using standard Japanese (you can do it with katakana somehow though, but katakana is usually reserved for foreign words).
QuoteActually, I've been thinking that most Martial Arts can be fairly easily modeled by the rules for manuvers in TRoS. Fer'instance, I modeled Wing Chun as a martial art the relys almost exclusively on a hand-to-hand version of Bind and Strike.
That's actually a cool idea. I'll have to think about that when ripping the (powered down) five elemental martial art styles from Exalted to my game.
-Joshua
Actually when i said Ki was a thing in the real world i meant our world earth as in here and now (but i also meant in my campaign world). Just go to the library and look inot any martial arts books or books specifically on Ki and there is your independant proof.
As far as Ki as a priority, i see how that might be tough, and i dont think it is a good idea to have it be like sorcery because it isnt at all. I think that the ideas of maneuvers that temporarily boost your toughness (for Combat Ki for example) are good ideas. There will also have to be alterations to the damage tables a bit since 8 pounds on certain parts of your neck will kill you (basically many martial arts teach you to locate weak points in your enemies and expliot them with little or no force).
Quote from: MordaccActually when i said Ki was a thing in the real world i meant our world earth as in here and now (but i also meant in my campaign world). Just go to the library and look inot any martial arts books or books specifically on Ki and there is your independant proof.
As far as Ki as a priority, i see how that might be tough, and i dont think it is a good idea to have it be like sorcery because it isnt at all. I think that the ideas of maneuvers that temporarily boost your toughness (for Combat Ki for example) are good ideas. There will also have to be alterations to the damage tables a bit since 8 pounds on certain parts of your neck will kill you (basically many martial arts teach you to locate weak points in your enemies and expliot them with little or no force).
Hmmm... I can find books proclaiming that the earth is flat, astrology is real, dowsing works, I can go on and on, but none of them are "proof." I have yet to see any objective book that shows proof (or even evidence strong enough to convince me to suspend judgement) that Ki is "real." Granted, I think it can help a student's visualization and understanding when explaing some of the abstract concepts of martial arts, but whenever a "master" tries to show some sort of mystic power or such using Ki, it's always some sort of parlour illusion (sometimes including self-delusion on the part of the "master").
The combat tables certainly do not need to be changed, unless the premise is that western martial artists and sword-fighters were untrained ruffians who used little or no skill in their martial endevours however, the evidence (and there is a LOT of it) would point to the contrary. Western practitioners certainly learned to exploit an opponent's weakness. Really, I don't see any evidence of the "secret knowledge" of Eastern Martial Arts that seems to be promoted. More to the point, none of the eastern martial masters I know claim that there are any "secrets" other than the knowledge and skill obtained through many years of practice of the art. The fantastic abilities often demonstrated during martial art tournament "half-time" shows are really just tricks--I know many of them, as my martial arts friends have told me how they do them (and how easy they are once you know the tricks). As an interesting aside, a perusal of western martial history will show that some western masters used the same techniques of self promotion (i.e. claiming knowledge of secret moves, etc.) as their eastern counterparts--but apparently they were all lost with the introduction of gunpowder :). Truly, the only secret knowledge is that obtained through practice and dedication. This in no way dispels any of my wonder at the skill level of some martial artists (eastern and western), but it is more an appreciation of the dedication and perseverance required to reach that level.
Now as for TROS, if one wanted to include supernatural Ki powers, I could see adding it as another SA trait. I seem to remember that the old RPG Bushido had some pretty good ideas on this based on accumulated Karma, Honor, etc. Sadly, Bushido is out of print...
-Steve
Quote from: MordaccActually when i said Ki was a thing in the real world i meant our world earth as in here and now (but i also meant in my campaign world).) Just go to the library and look inot any martial arts books or books specifically on Ki and there is your independant proof.
Ah, my mistake. I thought your comment was a reminder of the "lets assume that in my world I'm right" agreement, to get the thread back on topic.
As for proof, books by people who created the theory behind it can hardly be considered to be independent proof. It would be like referring to books by astrologers for independent proof that astrology can truly predict the future.
That said, whether certain martial arts techniques work through channeling ki energy, or through mental concentration and verified physiological processes is rather irrelevant.
Yes, as for arguing about whether Ki exists in the real world, thats one that wont end for a long time. But, back to the original question, lets just assume that in my world Ki does exist.
QuoteActually when i said Ki was a thing in the real world i meant our world earth as in here and now (but i also meant in my campaign world). Just go to the library and look inot any martial arts books or books specifically on Ki and there is your independant proof.
Mordacc, let's also not fan the flames shall we? I think we all agree that some people do believe that Ki exists, and some people do not. Let's drop the real world stuff. Again, as I've said before, unless everyone wants to get together and personally verify what works and doesn't, all we have is a words vs. words thing on the net at this point.
Let's go with the basic concept that (as far as TROS is concerned), Ki exists, Ki can be trained/improved, and that it can be channeled for productive purposes. If we're going to use what Ki is commonly attributed towards in real life, its used in the following purposes:
•Enhanced abilities(strength, endurance, toughness, health, etc.)
•Healing(stopping bloodloss, reducing/preventing shock, etc.)
•Sensing(opponent's intentions, "6th sense", etc.)
•Damage/disruptions(Stun/shock, more serious stuff, etc.)
This would be the primary uses of Ki, which makes it less flexible than magic, but depending on your "realism" level with it, you could claim anywhere from mild benefits("Look, surgery with just acupuncture, no anesthetic!") to anime levels of power("Super-Saiyan-Kamehamaha!"). It would be important to determine what levels are the limits within your campaign, what levels are the limits for humans(compared to, say, a unicorn or a dragon), and what the average human has.
One idea you might want to consider, is to consider Ki as a Proficiency unto itself, and the 4 categories listed above as individual skills. You could then use the Ki pool and successes translate into extra dice for whatever kind of rolls would be associated with that sort of thing for, say the next 10 minutes game time or so.
For example, if my warrior knows he's going to go into battle, perhaps he focuses his ki on resisting pain, shock and bloodloss. So, he's got a Ki proficiency of 4 and a skill of Ki Healing at 8, and gets two successes. For the next 10 minutes game time, he can take 2 off the amount of shock he receives, or pain penalties per round(not cumulative). Later, he gets cut, for a level 2 wound on the forearm, normally BL 5, shock 5, and pain 7-WP. So for the first round, he takes 2 less shock than normal, and every round thereafter, he can either reduce the pain by 2(making it 5-WP for all intents and purposes) or else choose to use his power to give him 2 extra dice for BL rolls.
I think this works well, because just like learning to fight with any weapon, technically anyone
could do it, although few will take the time to do so. The KI pool could be improved as any proficiency, likewise with the individual skills. It also would use proficiencies, which is something the magic system does as well. Since it would be a proficiency, it would also link in nicely with the usual connection to healers/martial artists that you historically get.
This doesn't require an extra "priority" classification be made, and allows folks to create a wide range of character types, from the Ki healer to the weird guy who can sense everything(Wolverine-"I smell he's lying..."), and doesn't require jumping into the magic system in any fashion, or the character with the nasty Ki stun/pain/organ exploding sort of stuff as well.
In this way, Ki has potential to be used by everyone and anyone(China's Tai Chi, Chi Gung, and the Falun Gung come to mind), and that it is useful, but not the world altering be-all end-all that magic is. Useful enough to learn and use, but not necessarily the most useful thing in all situations.
Chris
Edited for spelling and minor additional points.
Quote from: Ashren Va'Hale
Edit: I think that mechanically speaking you are talking LARGE ASS combat pools for those masters, if you have a combat pool of 30 something in unarmed then TROS handles that well, and you are talking about a 65 year old MASTER. As for taking shotsin the jimmy, I suppose a major gift of "the special skill" would work....
My first thought was a few new schools (hand/foot manouvers would not be the same as comparable weapon manouvers; you'd not just stick your arm out to block an incoming sword, for example, and you would hit using your hand differently from with a sword), and a few new "weapons" to represent each martial art.
You could do a LOT of pretty realistic martial arts with just that little... it wouldn't take a significant number of new rules (if any), either.
Quote from: MordaccAnd frankly, yes, there are some eastern martial arts that are similar to western styles but pit a judo master against a greek wrestler or some other western fighter and i guarentee you jodu wins out.[/i]
And I guarantee you that it does not: the person that wins is going to be the one with the best combination of skill, speed, strength, and resolve. Judo in no way guarantees that... and neither does any other martial art, though in my experience Tae Kwon Do comes close to guaranteeing the opposite ;)
Quote from: Jon the Bastard
By the way, the Ninjutsu hand-to-hand techniques are called NINpo, not Nimpo. At least, that's what Shidoshi Shephen K. Hayes, the first American to learn Togakure-Ryu Ninjutsu says.
'N' and 'm' are represented by the same Hiragana or Katakana, so it is most likely nothing more than a difference in Romanizatin.
Quote from: tauman
Hmmm... I can find books proclaiming that the earth is flat, astrology is real, dowsing works, I can go on and on, but none of them are "proof." I have yet to see any objective book that shows proof (or even evidence strong enough to convince me to suspend judgement) that Ki is "real." Granted, I think it can help a student's visualization and understanding when explaing some of the abstract concepts of martial arts, but whenever a "master" tries to show some sort of mystic power or such using Ki, it's always some sort of parlour illusion (sometimes including self-delusion on the part of the "master").
Actually, it IS real... but the idea that Ki is some sort of mystical power is the error. What it really amounts to is focus, balance, relaxation... a combination of physical elements, and is really a term rooted in Zen and Buddhist philosophy more than anything else.
Miyamoto Musashi's concept of the Void is the same thing; the Void is a way of meditating and focusing one's mind on the task at hand... again very real, but also nothing mystical or even mysterious.
The reason that this tends to comes across as a "secret" to the untrained is that the teachers of old didn't want outsiders to understand what they were doing. If you take a close look at how Aikido works, they talk a lot about Ki (it is after all the "way of Aiki"), but the techniques are based on the physics of human bodies -- which is why they work. Part of it has psychological, though; some of them work through deceiving the opponent.
Either way, Ki IS real... but it's a skill that anyone willing to take the time and put in the effort can learn.
(And no, I don't for a minute believe the tripe about a person taking a full-on blow to the throat and not even flinching... the skill of Ki allows you to use your body, not alter it.)
Quote from: Thalaxis
My first thought was a few new schools (hand/foot manouvers would not be the same as comparable weapon manouvers; you'd not just stick your arm out to block an incoming sword, for example, and you would hit using your hand differently from with a sword)
Warning: I'm going to start off by nitpicking, but there's actual rules application coming.
I studied aikijutsu for a while, which was the battlefield fighting of the samurai. Not long enough to be any good, mind you, but enough to get the basic concepts. In this style, you *do* block against swords with your arm(1), and strikes are intended to be performed very similarly to swordwork. (Most aiki "blocks" are actually forms of expulsion, BTW.) Part of the point of the art was to be able to switch between sword fighting and unarmed fighting without changing mental gears too much, which is useful if you are in the middle of a battle and your katana gets knocked out of your hand.
Does this mean that aiki practitioners are superheroes somehow? Please. My sensei would have laughed at that. (He once noted that someone with a beer bottle could ambush a martial artist and win, if the attacker achieved surprise.)
What it *does* mean, though, is that no new maneuvers really need to be invented. The disadvantage of fighting an armed man is already factored into weapon length penalties and the limb damage used when blocking a weapon with your arm. So I'd just suggest constructing proficiencies for different schools using the maneuvers already in place. I don't think that there needs to be as much variation as you are suggesting.
Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf
(1) To be clear, this is *not* supposed to be against the blade itself, although some techniques are designed to minimize damage from a blade (blocking with the bony ridge of the forearm, for instance) in case you do get hit. As my sensei noted, if you're in a fight with someone with a blade, it's not a matter of
if you will get cut; it's a matter of
when.
Quote from: GreatWolf
What it *does* mean, though, is that no new maneuvers really need to be invented. The disadvantage of fighting an armed man is already factored into weapon length penalties and the limb damage used when blocking a weapon with your arm. So I'd just suggest constructing proficiencies for different schools using the maneuvers already in place. I don't think that there needs to be as much variation as you are suggesting.
Given that I wasn't trying to suggest all that much variation, that says quite a bit about how well the system was designed in the first place.
Actually, when you describe it that way, I can see where you're coming from; the techniques may not quite identical, but they're not different enough to make a mechanical difference.
The main reason that I thought a few additional manouvers might be good is that in my training of Goju (karate) and Kobudo (weapons), we find that while they largely share techniques (when you compensate for having a weapon in your hand, changing your grip doesn't change how you actually punch, for example), some things like grabs and arm bars are just a LOT harder with weapons than with bare hands... though that might be properly accounted for via a "weapon" instead of a new manouver, even so.
Quote
(1) To be clear, this is *not* supposed to be against the blade itself, although some techniques are designed to minimize damage from a blade (blocking with the bony ridge of the forearm, for instance) in case you do get hit. As my sensei noted, if you're in a fight with someone with a blade, it's not a matter of if you will get cut; it's a matter of when.
That's about what all of my teachers have said, though they also went as far as to add "how badly".
I would express strong ki as a combination of a high combat pool and a large amount of SAs. Its a combination of skill and mental state.
The point I want to add to this discussion is that in my view, the Savaxon berzerker, the faith-powered paladin, a Fahal zealot, and the eastern warrior are all expressed in mechanically equivalent ways (IMHO, of course). Roleplaying them would be totally different, but functionally, if one wants a combat oriented character capable of absolutely awe-inspiring feats, the rules are in place already.
hmm.
i've been lurking so long, I forgot how to write a good post. sorry.
Quote from: ThalaxisThe main reason that I thought a few additional manouvers might be good is that in my training of Goju (karate) and Kobudo (weapons), we find that while they largely share techniques (when you compensate for having a weapon in your hand, changing your grip doesn't change how you actually punch, for example), some things like grabs and arm bars are just a LOT harder with weapons than with bare hands... though that might be properly accounted for via a "weapon" instead of a new manouver, even so.
I'd make it two sets of skills that closely defaulted to each other. Some, perhaps at zero penalty?
Mike
Quote from: ThalaxisQuote from: tauman
Hmmm... I can find books proclaiming that the earth is flat, astrology is real, dowsing works, I can go on and on, but none of them are "proof." I have yet to see any objective book that shows proof (or even evidence strong enough to convince me to suspend judgement) that Ki is "real." Granted, I think it can help a student's visualization and understanding when explaing some of the abstract concepts of martial arts, but whenever a "master" tries to show some sort of mystic power or such using Ki, it's always some sort of parlour illusion (sometimes including self-delusion on the part of the "master").
Actually, it IS real... but the idea that Ki is some sort of mystical power is the error. What it really amounts to is focus, balance, relaxation... a combination of physical elements, and is really a term rooted in Zen and Buddhist philosophy more than anything else.
Miyamoto Musashi's concept of the Void is the same thing; the Void is a way of meditating and focusing one's mind on the task at hand... again very real, but also nothing mystical or even mysterious.
The reason that this tends to comes across as a "secret" to the untrained is that the teachers of old didn't want outsiders to understand what they were doing. If you take a close look at how Aikido works, they talk a lot about Ki (it is after all the "way of Aiki"), but the techniques are based on the physics of human bodies -- which is why they work. Part of it has psychological, though; some of them work through deceiving the opponent.
Either way, Ki IS real... but it's a skill that anyone willing to take the time and put in the effort can learn.
(And no, I don't for a minute believe the tripe about a person taking a full-on blow to the throat and not even flinching... the skill of Ki allows you to use your body, not alter it.)
Well put! I absolutely agree with what you say, so I think I'll have to backtrack on my statement somewhat. Given your use of the term 'Ki', I can't argue with you at all. However, in the context of my post, I was really talking about the extreme stuff (blows to the throat, "sustain blows that are fatal to others", etc), that I just don't buy. I guess I should have qualified my statements somewhat.
--Steve
Quote from: tauman
Well put! I absolutely agree with what you say, so I think I'll have to backtrack on my statement somewhat. Given your use of the term 'Ki', I can't argue with you at all. However, in the context of my post, I was really talking about the extreme stuff (blows to the throat, "sustain blows that are fatal to others", etc), that I just don't buy. I guess I should have qualified my statements somewhat.
20 years of training would lead me to agree with not buying it any more than you do, especially since my sensei trained under a National Treasue of Japan... and I was fortunate enough to learn a kata from him personally before he died.
(I'm just glad that I had a chance to meet him.)
Thalaxis, believe it or not there are many people trained in Combat Ki who can take full on blows to the neck (by multiple people at the same time in fact). I have taken it for many years and if you dont believe me, which there is no reason why you should, read about it. I have seen it with my own eyes many times.
Quote from: MordaccThalaxis, believe it or not there are many people trained in Combat Ki who can take full on blows to the neck (by multiple people at the same time in fact). I have taken it for many years and if you dont believe me, which there is no reason why you should, read about it. I have seen it with my own eyes many times.
That is not physiologically possible... sorry to burst your bubble. Humans are not built to handle that sort of abuse.
I once saw a magician in vegas cut a woman in half and then put her back together again an thats not physiologically possible either so whats your point? If the guy in vegas can cut a woman in half (and I saw it with my own eyes and there are books about it) then it must have happened that way and by the same logic mordacc's assertionson KI must be true.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
I trust my point has been made.... signing off now.
To move back from the brink of flamewars, the point goes back to someone asking about how 'cinematic' they want TROS to feel. Whether one believes ki allows certain things to occur or not, I think we can all agree that a guy taking 4 hits to the neck at the same time & being perfectly fine is a little off the beaten track, shall we say.
What does this mean in game play? Well, it means that the Seneschal allowed one character to have a 9 or a 10 Toughness starting off.
I think that the utility of this thread lies in the fact that TROS is a roleplaying game where a player really should be allowed on occasion to make characters deeply based around combat without doing so be seen as being a 'munchkin' or a 'twink.' Therefore, a discussion on the mechanics can handle some of the more outlandish anecdotes of combat is useful.
My personal opinion is that most of these these things can be represented through SAs, combat pool, & attributes... with roleplaying backing up the reasoning on why the character can do what (s)he can.
Obviously, this is a variable that people should be clear on BEFORE gameplay starts. Its bad to show up to a wuxia fight with just a dagger, afterall.
EDIT: added last 2 paragraphs
I remember a few years back, the Discovery channel had these Shaolin kung fu guys that were doing stunts on the street. You know, they were bending swords on their stomachs, getting punched in the chest, and having guys break bamboo rods across their throats. Honestly, none of these feats were all that impressive in real life. But what was really impressive was the training these guys underwent. Constant, day in, day out full body exercises. The monks were walking up the side of a mountain, on their hands. They had one monk hold the other's feet. wheelbarrow-style, and then they ran up the mountain. It looked like it was at least a mile up and back. That is just hard -freakin'- core. My point is, you don't need mystic powers when you are that bad ass. And these guys train since they can walk.
So the question is: can this be duplicated in TRoS? I think so. The real pain in the ass job is going to be modeling the martial art. There needs to be new techniques for leaping attacks, at least for some forms, and each form is more accurately described as seperate styles, each with a collections of techniques. You've got your Iron shirt style, your Chin-na grappling, your Crane, Tiger, and other assorted animal styles. Then you've got to build your monk. Definately have physicals as their primary, and Proficiencies next, or vice versa. The real kicker are their SAs. If we give the monk a Faith: Ki, that is, a total belief in the Monk's own martial capacity as an outgrowth of his inner tranquility, you've got a combatant who could potentially be fighting with a Combat Pool in the 15 - 20 range, as a beginning character, and whose Faith pool constantly regenerates just as long as he keeps his head during combat. Against even a well talented opponent, the monk will just decimate him. He could even go up against two or three poor opponents, it he plays his cards right. Now, I don't know how you could call that anything less than astounding.
However, he does have his human limits. He bleeds, just like any man, and even the greatest Iron Shirt master will be killed by a crossbow bolt in the back. Remember, during the Boxer's Rebellion in China, the Sacred Order of the Harmonious Fist (coolest cult name. ever) were cut down by the Chinese Gov't rifles. It was seen as something on a joke, these Shaolin Monks just charging the rifles, nothing but their faith protecting them. Faith can move mountains, but a .30 - .06 round can move flesh, bone, and earth, and far more reliably.
So if we really want a martial artist, we should concentrate on building the styles, and let the very robust and flexible system of TRoS do the rest.
I actually got a chance to see the Shaolin live, in a high school auditorium about 8 years ago, before they started doing "stadium" tours, I saw them do a bunch of stuff, the most impressive being one guy taking hits from a massive log and not giving an inch.
Just the same, I've said it before, and will say it again: There's not much point in the "I believe" group and the "I don't believe" group arguing the reality of human potential on this thread. I know what I saw, but unless I actually go out and get someone who can do it, and the people who don't believe, together in a room for a live demonstration, it all amounts to words.
So I'm going to say it again:
Let's drop all talk of what can be done in real life.
Let's stick to the simple point of how can we make this kind of stuff work in game.
QuoteSo the question is: can this be duplicated in TRoS? I think so. The real pain in the ass job is going to be modeling the martial art. There needs to be new techniques for leaping attacks, at least for some forms, and each form is more accurately described as seperate styles, each with a collections of techniques. You've got your Iron shirt style, your Chin-na grappling, your Crane, Tiger, and other assorted animal styles.
On note of what you're saying Jon, remember that the Combat Pool actions do not indicate 1) A single strike being made, but rather the decisive strike coming forth, 2) they can indicate any kind of attack, ranging from a jump attack to a funky "fold-your-knees-drop-real-quick-and-pop-back-up-under-their-guard-oops-that-wasn't-your-sternum/groin/throat-was-it?" attacks.
You don't need to make a technique for each of these styles. Chin-na is grappling, as listed in the book, it just happens that someone who trains 14 hours a day for years on end has a crazy Combat Pool. Tiger is offensive strikes + grappling(I know personally). Crane is counters, +accuracy gift to get those fun spots like throat and eyes. Iron shirt is high toughness or else the Ki rules as I described.
My personal mods to the manuevers were primarily based off of game mechanics(that is, most boil down into a strategy game of eliminating an opponent's CP so that you can deliver a finishing blow). The couple of things that I have modified according to style, one Brian pointed out a rule that already covers it, and the second modification is not unique to my style but can be found in martial arts of all sorts around the world. Just because my style tends to use it more often doesn't mean it earned its own rule.
Otherwise, I want rules for breaking feet by stomping on them during combat, rules for deliberately cracking and weakening opponent's blades during blocking, rules for drawing out one of 15 hidden knives on your body in combat, rules for confusing the opponent by using sounds to set up off timing, etc. Look, I don't think anyone wants, or really needs all of those rules. GURPS and HERO both tried that method, and the combat isn't actually very strategic, exciting, or entertaining. You just end up picking the two or three techniques that hit the most often and do the most damage.
On the other hand, I can spend all my dice on an attack from a offensive stance and say I'm doing a "Waterfall strike" pole attack while jumping...
Same idea, less math.
Chris
QuoteYou don't need to make a technique for each of these styles. Chin-na is grappling, as listed in the book, it just happens that someone who trains 14 hours a day for years on end has a crazy Combat Pool. Tiger is offensive strikes + grappling(I know personally). Crane is counters, +accuracy gift to get those fun spots like throat and eyes. Iron shirt is high toughness or else the Ki rules as I described.
Oh, I totally agree with you. In fact, I just made a couple fighters to play around with. I made one Monk as a psuedo Praying Mantis fighter, with Bind and Strike, Feint, Block Open and Strike, Simultaneous Block/Strike, and plain old Punch ti simulate the rapid traps/strikes of Mantis. He ended up with a 7 Reflex, and a total of 16 in his Mantis Combat pool.
Then I made a Yeoman who fought with an Axe and Shield, with a CP of 10, which is about average for most characters. He wore a leather Jerkin, and was tough as nails (6 En).
I learned a few things from running the two of them through some fights.
One: It is not neccessary for the Monk (Chiang Si- Lun) to do damage to the axe fighter (Tahner Smithyson). As long as Chiang could just keep hitting Tahner, he could maintain the upper hand, keeping Tahner on the defensive. With Tahner's high Toughness, and a nice round shield, it was very unlikely that Chiang could ever land a kill-shot. In fact, it was damn near impossible.
Two: Kicks require way too much wind up (high ATN) to use when your ass is on the line. When the other guy is wielding a lethal weapon, a poorly placed kick can open you up for a killing blow. Kicks work great against unarmed opponents, the extra power can be used to totally disable an opponent.
Three: Fights between high Endurance, high Willpower characters are nasty. They both can take a lot of punishment, take a lot of pain, and not get tired any time soon. Hoping to just wear your opponent down with nickel and dime hits can take forever. The third fight ran nearly 10 consecutive rounds, and Chiang was nursing a severed ear, while Tahner had fractured ribs.
Four: Fists are not killing weapons. At best, you must aim for the vital points on the body. Major accuracy is a must. A rank 3 kick to the Knee (good luck) Can cripple an an opponent with pain, but a little higher or lower and the payoffs are quite a bit less.
Five: If Tahner ever got Chiang with that hand axe, the fight was pretty much won. The extra shock was more than enough to take the fight out of even the most hardend monk.
Six: if Chiang wanted to win, he had to risk putting nearly all of his dice into an attack, and hope for the best. Feints were very helpful, or at least I think they would be, running a combat by yourself can be a bit confusing. The only problem with a hand-to-hand feint is that it is really hard to fake out the opponent. If you give eight dice to a thrust to the stomach, a tough opponent, who has taken a hit there, probably won't buy it.
And Seven: If the other guy has a weapon and any kind of training, Duck and Weave is a stupid move. Chiang ended up with an Axe buried in his head during the final fight.
I think there is a place for martial arts in TRoS. I love how the system pretty much confirms what I really would happen if a monk and trained axeman went at it. Either the monk hits the axeman hard enough to cripple him, or the axeman (more likely) takes his head clean off.
Quote from: Thalaxis
Actually, it IS real... but the idea that Ki is some sort of mystical power is the error. What it really amounts to is focus, balance, relaxation... a combination of physical elements, and is really a term rooted in Zen and Buddhist philosophy more than anything else.
That is An Argument about chi, not The Truth.
Chi is an "ultimate realising force" which opccurs in and realises all things in the world. It is in a sense the synthesis between Heaven and Earth, and was, as I understand it, predominantly laid outby the Mohists as a challenge to the ritual practictioners of the day. By constructing a model in which the essential nature of godhood/reality was found within the human (which acted as a vessel for chi) and a process of refinement, the Mohists asserted a superior legitimiacy and effectiveness to that offered by the institutional ritual specialists.
The particular form of Zen, as opposed philosophies of chi, manifest in the Japanese martial arts specifically is also a heavily qualified artifact. Some Zennists would mount the criticism that Japanese zen is a severe corruption of zen philosophy exploited as reification of warrior-elite rule, and resembles real zen very little. This is too sectarian an argument for me to really explore, but the existance of Japanese martial Zen as even being Zen is open to debate.
Quote
And Seven: If the other guy has a weapon and any kind of training, Duck and Weave is a stupid move. Chiang ended up with an Axe buried in his head during the final fight.
Duck and Weave is useful if you're on the defensive with a dice advantage in the second exchange. Especially against someone with a shield, which is useless if the Duck and Weave is successful. IMO, the good stuff about Duck and Weave is that you go around range penalties and shields and stuff.
Quote from: Jon the BastardFour: Fists are not killing weapons. At best, you must aim for the vital points on the body. Major accuracy is a must. A rank 3 kick to the Knee (good luck) Can cripple an an opponent with pain, but a little higher or lower and the payoffs are quite a bit less.
Good point. One of the focuses of aikijutsu (as well as aikido and several other styles, IIRC) is the striking of specific nerve points to "distract" your opponent. (At least that's what my sensei called it.) This seems like textbook Shock to me. So, can this be modeled?
The easiest method, I would think, would be to allow an adjustment to the d6 roll that determines area. Perhaps burning successes from a hit to apply a modifier after the fact?
e.g. Chiang Si- Lun and Tahner Smithyson are going at it again. Chiang decides to sidekick Tahner in the knee. For this example, we'll call that a bludgeoning attack against the upper legs (Zone IX). In Zone IX, Chiang needs to roll a 1 to hit the knee. Dice are assigned and rolled. Chiang hits with four successes, but rolled a 3. In order to hit the knee, Chiang can burn two of his successes to reduce the roll to a 1, thus leaving him with two successes for damage.
Since TROS characters already have a great deal of accuracy in where they hit someone, this could be limited somewhat. A character cannot burn more successes per opponent per combat than his combined Perception+Proficiency score. This way, a skilled fighter still has excellent accuracy but cannot get complete pinpoint accuracy on every strike. Also, this allows this modification to apply to weapons as well as unarmed attacks.
Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf
edited to add bracket to quote
Quote from: GreatWolf
Good point. One of the focuses of aikijutsu (as well as aikido and several other styles, IIRC) is the striking of specific nerve points to "distract" your opponent. (At least that's what my sensei called it.) This seems like textbook Shock to me. So, can this be modeled?
I don't see why not... a pressure point strike could be treated as massive non-permanent damage, like shock. If it's a successful hit to a pressure point, treat like a club strike, only instead of saying that bones got broken, just describe that much pain.
Even ignoring that, when a character takes damage in TROS, they already get a penalty which can easily be enough to decide the outcome of the fight, so it seems to me that that fits into the combat system almost perfectly... you could probably describe the effect with a few weapon stats.
The only thing that I would add to the regular system is that for a nerve strike, you CAN recover during the fight, because it's non-permanent damage, so the penalty would be transient (if you survive ;)). So just require a Willpower test to continue fighting? It would consume dice, which equates to a distraction, mechanically.
Of course, having blown an ACL, I am very aware of the fact that a solid kick to the knee is not going to cripple someone with pain... it will cripple them -- but it still requires a lot of accuracy, as the angle of attack has a lot to do with how hard it is to break... though if the loser doesn't survive, the permanence of the injury is of no consequence :)
Quote from: GreatWolfThe easiest method, I would think, would be to allow an adjustment to the d6 roll that determines area. Perhaps burning successes from a hit to apply a modifier after the fact?
Or you could just take the Accuracy gift.
Brian.
Maybe a manuver for some relatively high proficency in a Martial Arts style could emulate the Accuracy gift?
Or allow you to discard dice instead of successes to adjust the 'placement' roll?
Or maybe a new damage chart (based on thrusting for the area hit, and with higher shock and lower pain/blood loss than bludgeoning) for some styles of hand to hand stuff?
I like the idea of a technique for more accurate hand to hand attacks. After all, it is much easier to aim with you limbs than with your weapons.
I also like the idea of a nerve strike. Just off the top of my head, how about this :
Nerve Strike
ATN: 8 (nerve strikes are amazingly hard to connect with)
DTN: 8 (I'm not sure why you'd defend with a nerve stike...)
Damage: Str-2b
Note: Does +x Shock, where (x = damage)
By striking the nerve clusters in the body, the martial artist can stun his opponent with decebtive ease.
Well Jon, it seems that most of your experience in the game test reflects a lot of real life. In real life, my teacher says, "Knives are not punches, you can't KEEP taking these...". We also don't use lots of kicks for one very good reason: If someone has something sharp, all you are doing is giving them a target, one that you might need to still be functioning to run away...
On note of shock, my personal manuever modification works like this:
Shock attacks:
On a successful hit against an unarmored area, you can inflict extra Shock by spending extra CP. Each extra CP=1 extra shock. You can spend up to your proficiency.
Since hands have a low ATN, it makes it effective enough to use, especially by folks with CP advantage. On the other hand, it makes assholes with chainmail a problem, but if you're going empty hands against chainmail, you need to start grappling or run.
Chris
I'm happy to see this thread move into something more intelligent. The last thing i want to see is kewl powerz whether or not they are based on some kind of "real life".
QuoteOr you could just take the Accuracy gift.
I concur with Brian. Why create more rules and modifications than needed?
QuoteAfter all, it is much easier to aim with you limbs than with your weapons.
Jake may quibble. I honestly don't know, myself.
QuoteShock attacks:
On a successful hit against an unarmored area, you can inflict extra Shock by spending extra CP. Each extra CP=1 extra shock. You can spend up to your proficiency.
I like this idea better than the previous one by Jon the Bastard, especially the "unarmored area" part. Some guy in chainmail isn't going to care much about you punching him. The guy in plate is going to laugh and wait for your hand to break.
QuoteKnives are not punches....(snip) We also don't use lots of kicks for one very good reason: If someone has something sharp, all you are doing is giving them a target
'Nuff said.
I concur. That puts the martial arts squarely into the manuvers realm. Now, lets see if we can't start writing up some different martial arts. Don't forget the training , or how the martial artis should prioritize their stats.
Potentially usable maneuvers that are already in the game:
hook (footsweeps)
grapple
punch
kick
parry (if you are unarmed, may not be used at any range longer than hand....it's hard to parry a sword blade with your arm)
stop short
toss
thrust
double strike
and of course full/partial evasion and duck and weave
would the following work/fit?
simo block/strike
counter....from what i know, softer martial arts that redirect attacks against the aggressor may be good at this.
feints
bind and strike
that's actually most of the maneuvers in the game already.
By mixing and matching these you could come up with several styles right away. For example, karate, would lack grappling, judo would lack kicks and punches, and various styles of kung fu would have some of the maneuvers and lack others. There is already a lot of potential available.
I suggest working within the framework already established unless new maneuvers are absolutely necessary. New maneuvers should be comparable in power to current ones, should we decide they are even necessary. A punch is a punch is a punch, whether it is really called a "Dragon Claw Strike" or "Singing Willow Bows in the Wind", when you boil it down.
Despite my hacking on Mordacc (sorry dude), I am not averse to flashy eastern martial arts like you see in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Iron Monkey, or Jackie Chan/Bruce Lee flicks. A good example is from the Kill Bill trailer, where Uma Thurman thrusts at a martial artist, who in turn leaps up, stands briefly on the end of Uma's sword and then kicks her in the face. Mind you, this can already be done with current maneuvers as it is, say, a Duck and Weave, followed by a Kick to the head (area IV), with cool narration by the player/Seneschal. Nothing really spectacular in terms of SA's, Vagaries, Ki, etc. is happening, just a couple of standard maneuvers with some imagination.
On the other hand, ninjas just flying around in the sky at will, reflecting swords off their heads with nary a scratch and throwing fireballs like Ryu from SFII is a bit much, IMO. This is what I don't want to see, as it would cheapen the game considerably.
I'm the first to admit that I like my games gritty and "realistic" (I use this term loosely, but you all know what I mean). Although a fan of HK Theater (how many of you remember fondly
Kung Fu Theater Saturday afternoons?), to quote arxhon,
Quote from: arxhonThe last thing i want to see is kewl powerz whether or not they are based on some kind of "real life".
That is me, however, and I freely admit that others may feel differently. To each his own.
It's obvious, however, that some here would like to see more of an Eastern flavor to their unarmed combat. That being the case, I agree with arxhon's attempts to work within the system, rather than generating a new one. TRoS is incredibly flexible, and that should be taken advantage of.
Quote from: arxhonPotentially usable maneuvers that are already in the game:
hook (footsweeps)
grapple
punch
kick
parry (if you are unarmed, may not be used at any range longer than hand....it's hard to parry a sword blade with your arm)
stop short
toss
thrust
double strike
and of course full/partial evasion and duck and weave
would the following work/fit?
simo block/strike
counter....from what i know, softer martial arts that redirect attacks against the aggressor may be good at this.
feints
bind and strike
that's actually most of the maneuvers in the game already."
It would seem to me that practically any form of unarmed combat could be massaged out of this system, so long as one focuses on the specifics of a particular style.
Chris
Taking a note from the "Social Combat" thread, is anyone thinking of writing up specific style rules for various Martial Arts using current rules?
And I'm not just talking about Turkey Trot Shaolin Gong Fu, I'm talking about French Savate and the difference in focus between Spanish and Italian fencing styles. I don't practice any Martial Art, but I've read that there are differences. Are they large enough to get this specific?
Though perhaps it might pay to wait till we can read TFoB...
Gene Ha
PS I think all this "spiritual" Asian martial artist stuff is crap. Asian warriors were just as selfish, cruel, materialistic, and bawdy as their western counterparts. SAMURAIS WEREN'T MONKS! They slept around, with each other, with whores, mistresses, and little boys. They drank too much, robbed the poor, fought, and pissed off the religious types.
Ditto Korean, Chinese, Thai, English, etc. warriors. (I'm proudly Korean, thank you).
(Actually, the same is true of European and Asian monks).
There were deeply spiritual warriors, who thought their spiritual development was inseparable from their martial development. In Europe and Asia. But this was the exception. But now we talk about "chivalry" and "Asian mysticism" as if they were the norm.
People often see foreign traditions as more pure. Americans study Buddhism because it's more intellectual. Some Chinese study Catholicism or Mormonism because it's more intellectual than the street Buddhism with which they grew up.
I wonder if it would be appropriate to add some sort of Proficiency (or something) like a "Martial Style and Counterstyle" idea.
In an eastern game require folks to take a style of combat or two...
making this up
Martial Art- Dragon-style (counters Snake?-style) giving a small bonus to the Character when fighting opponents using that style.
Well, I'm probably going to kitbash an unarmed combat style together with my wife for her character, using the current maneuvers. If/when I do that, I'll post the results here.
Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf
another idea, I was watching some UFC th othr day and I saw some muay thai guy beat the tar out of a boxer and what it seemed to me was that the muay thai fighterkicked easier than the boxer but didn't puch as well, now brawling and grappling are proficiencies that theoretically allow you to toss teh same amount o dice for any attack within the proficiency but different schools focus on different aspects ofthe fight. SO, in game terms you could lower or raise atn's and dtn's for punches and kicks as befits the style in question. This would allow you to simulate the ease of the boxers punch and the crappiness of his kicks while doing the reverse for the muay thia and I apologize for butchering teh spelling...
maybe the muay thai guy had a higher proficiency or attributes or maybe his grandmother's dying wish was for him to win the UFC tournament and when he was born a twin tailed comet flew over head and it was prophesied that he who was born under the twin tailed comet would become the greatest fighter in the world, so this muay thai guy might have a lot of SA's going for him.
My bet is he trained harder and longer and better than the boxer, but you can go and lower his ATN if you wish, go ahead, ruin the game ... ( :) just kidding, lower the ATN if you want to it should be fine for your world)
You could say that maybe the muay thai school had a better teaching program than the school the boxer went to? But since in TROS you get better at fighting through SAs and not practice it won't mater. (unless your Drive is: practice all the time, then practice might build your SAs)
Scott
what I specifically meant was that if you want to model a kick based martial art where in fighters train to kick and use kicking attacks then teh activation costs for kicks or kick ATN/dtn would be lower than a punched based style and perhaps you could alter the activation costs for various maneuvers depending on how they fight withthe particularstyle.
This is my suggestion for those who want to differentiate some of the different schools as was mentioned earlier in the thread. Hope that helps to clarify.
I'd love to see something like the GURPS Maneuver system in TRoS.
Some styles prefer kicks, some prefer punches. Some sword styles use the same weapons, but advocate stabs over swings. Some way of buying down a TN would be really interesting to me.
Of course, that could get really cinematic really quick ("My Paladin Dragonblood Oakenhedd has a TN of 4 for Duck and Weave! He rules!").
Gene Ha
Ok,
I see no problem with mucking with activation costs. There's already precedent (check grappling under the wrestling proficiency and compare it to the other proficiencies AC for grappling).
On the other hand, buying down TN's is a dangerously slippery slope, as MrGeneHa already demonstrated (thanks, BTW).
Being better at something is reflected in having a higher proficiency, not lowering the TN. A punch is already at ATN 5 (pretty low, actually).....whether you have a level 1 prof. or a 12 prof. The level 12 means you are better with it, meaning you are more likely to hit, and more likely to cause damage. This is why there are proficiency levels in the first place.
Modeling the kick based martial art would be as simple as giving them the following maneuvers:
Kick
Hook
Stop Short
Feint
the usual evasions and duck&weave
and possibly
Toss
I'm still seeing the idea of making an unarmed fighter better than one carrying a sword floating around here. Why is this? Is it just me?
Quote from: arxhon
I'm still seeing the idea of making an unarmed fighter better than one carrying a sword floating around here. Why is this? Is it just me?
Yesterday I was sparring a guy. He had a greatsword, I was unarmed (well, I threw my gloves at him, but it didn't get me too far). I beat him by waiting for him to thrust, setting his attack aside, disarming him, and "stabbing" him in the back with his own sword as he tried to grapple with me. This guy had about 5 inches of height on me, and a few pounds. Why did I beat him?
1. Luck. I'll admit it. I got lucky.
2. Skill. I've been doing this for a long time now, and I'm pretty darn good. He's been at it for about 6 months (but he's good for how long he's been here).
3. Understanding. I know how the greatsword works, and where it's weak spots are. He knew what I'd try to do to get in (and kept me at bay for a long time), but he misjudged the effect of his thrust.
That's the thing. If I was fighting me, I'd have gotten creamed. The skill of the fighter is 80% of the equasion. "School" is 20% at best. In TROS terms my CP was a lot higher than his--enough that I could afford to get past his range and his CP, but only enough that it required luck. If I were to take on another guy of my level (same CP, so to speak), then I'd have been toasted 4 times out of 5. Weapons were invented because they're better than bare hands. "If you fight a guy with a knife, expect to get cut" is the popular saying. "Ha," I say, "not if my knife is a lot longer!"
Jake
Quote from: Jake Norwood
Yesterday I was sparring a guy. He had a greatsword, I was unarmed (well, I threw my gloves at him, but it didn't get me too far).
Hehehe....a Toss. :-) Cool. Throw that into available maneuvers. That leaves simo block/strike, feints and counters as "up in the air".
Quote from: arxhon
I'm still seeing the idea of making an unarmed fighter better than one carrying a sword floating around here. Why is this? Is it just me?
In retrospect, i guess it sounds like i'm saying "Buddy with a sword should always win against an unarmed dude." This isn't what i'm trying to say.
This is:
What i'm seeing, IMHO, is a lot of "Asian martial arts are superior and will always win against western martial arts.", with various ways of trying to make it so (super powers, lowered ATN, some kind of shock attack thingie).
Quote from: Jake Norwood
If I was fighting me, I'd have gotten creamed. The skill of the fighter is 80% of the equasion. "School" is 20% at best. In TROS terms my CP was a lot higher than his--enough that I could afford to get past his range and his CP, but only enough that it required luck. If I were to take on another guy of my level (same CP, so to speak), then I'd have been toasted 4 times out of 5.
You won because, as you said, you are better than him and have a greater understanding of a greatsword's capabilities. In TROS terms,your higher proficiency in Greatsword defaulted to a Grappling proficiency that was more or less equivalent to his proficiency in Greatsword (an interesting use of defaults, btw).
I'm also saying that a skilled martial artist (of either end of the continent) is skilled because he has a greater Combat Pool, not because of kewl powerz, lowered ATN's or whatever. This is what i want to avoid, personally. A white belt in kung-fu destroying a Knight of the Round Table in full plate simply because the white belt knows some kung-fu is, well, in a word, lame. A 10th dan black belt on the other hand, might have a pretty good go, though he'd probably do what you did (grapple, disarm, turn weapon), rather than try to punch the knight out.
Please don't get me wrong. I'm all for kung-fu, karate and wing chun. I love Jackie Chan movies. I love Bruce Lee movies. I want to see flashy martial arts. I love Asian martial arts.
But i also want gritty bloody brutal no holds barred desperate
realistic combat, which is what drew me to TROS in the first place.
i'm positive flashy Asian martial arts can be modeled within the TROS combat system already. There's no need to create a whole pile of new rules (i am reminded of Dark Sun and the Psionics Handbook......too many new rules, ugh....) to do it.
I'm going to quote myself here:
QuoteA good example is from the Kill Bill trailer, where Uma Thurman thrusts at a martial artist, who in turn leaps up, stands briefly on the end of Uma's sword and then kicks her in the face. Mind you, this can already be done with current maneuvers as it is, say, a Duck and Weave, followed by a Kick to the head (area IV), with cool narration by the player/Seneschal. Nothing really spectacular in terms of SA's, Vagaries, Ki, etc. is happening, just a couple of standard maneuvers with some imagination.
This is what i'm on about. The tools are already there. We just have to apply them imaginatively. However, I've been on about it long enough, I'm sure, so i'll turn it back over to the original topic.
Quote
Weapons were invented because they're better than bare hands.
"If you fight a guy with a knife, expect to get cut" is the popular saying. "Ha," I say, "not if my knife is a lot longer!"
LMAO!
QuoteA good example is from the Kill Bill trailer, where Uma Thurman thrusts at a martial artist, who in turn leaps up, stands briefly on the end of Uma's sword and then kicks her in the face. Mind you, this can already be done with current maneuvers as it is, say, a Duck and Weave, followed by a Kick to the head (area IV), with cool narration by the player/Seneschal. Nothing really spectacular in terms of SA's, Vagaries, Ki, etc. is happening, just a couple of standard maneuvers with some imagination.
Side point:
I have always found Duck & Weave to be just a tiny bit too hard to pull off. At TN9 even ten dice will only give you (on average) 2 successes, which just isn't enough to avoid most attacks.
I've been floating the idea of a TN8 for Duck & Weave for a while now, using it in my own game etc. I also put it as an optional rule in the combat sim. Has anyone used that in the combat sim, or experimented with it in actual tros play? Any thoughts? Too unbalanced? etc.
Brian
p.s: The Character Generator is almost done, and should be v1 early next week. Is anyone keen to give it a really good thrashing for me? I'm not interested in "I played with it for 20 minutes and made up a character" but someone who can
really put it through its paces (and especially see how the sheets print out since you guys use Letter size and I can only test it in A4 down here). Etc. PM me if you're interested and you know and understand TROS character creation rules really well already. Thanks.
I suppose what I'd like to see out of "martial arts" is somewhat illustrated by Jake's story of sparring that greatsworder.. How do you disarm someone in TRoS? The only thing I've seen is the counter, which is essentially random, and perhaps a defensive grapple to trap, but that doesn't mention any way to take your opponent's weapon away. It makes sense that if you're fighting unarmed against an armed opponent, the best way to level the playing field, or turn it to your advantage is to take the opponent's weapon, and either use it yourself, or simply deny him the use of it.
A few, very few, different options not currently offered or illustrated by the current maneuvers would be enough for me.
Quote from: Brian LeybourneSide point:
I have always found Duck & Weave to be just a tiny bit too hard to pull off. At TN9 even ten dice will only give you (on average) 2 successes, which just isn't enough to avoid most attacks.
I've been floating the idea of a TN8 for Duck & Weave for a while now, using it in my own game etc. I also put it as an optional rule in the combat sim. Has anyone used that in the combat sim, or experimented with it in actual tros play? Any thoughts? Too unbalanced? etc.
Brian
I adopted a TN8 Duck & Weave after several characters got skewered attmpting the standard TN9 one. I'm not certain about the balance issue (only a few attmpts since the change - PCs were a tad gun-shy)...I just know that I've seen it work now. It's not easy mind you, just a little more of a possibility.
Chris
Re: TN 8 Duck & Weave
Works for me. I'll try it, too.
QuoteI suppose what I'd like to see out of "martial arts" is somewhat illustrated by Jake's story of sparring that greatsworder.. How do you disarm someone in TRoS? The only thing I've seen is the counter, which is essentially random, and perhaps a defensive grapple to trap, but that doesn't mention any way to take your opponent's weapon away. It makes sense that if you're fighting unarmed against an armed opponent, the best way to level the playing field, or turn it to your advantage is to take the opponent's weapon, and either use it yourself, or simply deny him the use of it.
I didn't wrench the weapon out of his hands--once I closed to grappling range he relinquished his own weapon (in TROS terms, he knew that he's have a bigger CP with his own hands at that range--especially since I had successfully grappled and we were going to end up wrestling). In the chaos of it all I got my hands on his sword. I'm not sure I know how exactly, except that it often happens that way. Basically I grappled to trap, and instead of striking or trying to break something (he's my friend, after all), I went for his weapon with my free hand (I had both of his bound up for a split second with my left arm). IRL I would have gone for the break, and then kicked him in the head or played with the break more until I could comfortably grab the weapon. Well, ideally, that is.
Jake