i like the system... really i do... im just thiking about what i can do to stream line things a bit more... (note, that doesnt mean making anything d20 based..lol)... i have had some plans on convrting the system over to Ars Magica (more specifically Rune)... basically you would roll a d10, and add your attribute, plus your skill, that way if you have a 15 die combat pool, you dont have to worry about 15 dice......
granted this method takes away alot of the theory behind combat.... basically "i'll attack with 5 dice, he only have 4 to defend with..."
i dony particularly care for the way it is now.....i do have plans to keep maneuvers in the game though, and the activation on them would be subtracted from your die roll....
So...what exactly is your reason for playing TROS?
There is no possible way for you to capture the strategy of the combat system in some single die and mods system...so you might as well put the book back on the shelf and play something else.
Starting with "I like the system" and concluding with "I'm going to change every single unique thing about it" doesn't compute.
well with piss poor responses like this, i thik im just going to once again, stop posting here.
i dont get you people, everytime i mention altering one small thing, you freaks jump down my throat..... so fine, see ya
First, dropping the die pool system for a single die system, is not changing one small thing. Its rewriting the game entirely into something completely different. At which point you might as well save yourself the effort and just play a game designed to be a single die system.
Second, you didn't ask a question. You just made a blanket "I don't like the system and I'm changing it" statement.
So what response were you hopeing to get?
Third...I'm not quite sure what was "piss-poor" about by response to you. The fact remains you started your post by saying that you like the system, and ended it by saying you were completely going to change it. It didn't compute then...it still doesn't compute now.
fine whatever, you made your statement, which was what i have come to expect, it doesnt really matter anymore
Hi Prophet,
All of the Target Numbers are arranged from 10 down - you'll have to reverse them all.
How about CP allocation? Right now, a player can count out his CP in dice and have a physical way to keep track of how many points he's spent in a round. With a single dice mechanic, players will have to keep track of CP spent on paper, or in memory.
Most importantly, changing to a single die system will change the curve for Margins of success:
d10 + X vs. d10 + X
produces a wider range of possible margins than Xd10 vs Xd10. A dagger will make a catastrophic wound much more often with a single die than with multiple. Likewise, a claymore will do scratches more often than it used to.
How do you plan to compensate for this?
All in all, it sounds like a lot of work. Will it be worth it, or is there another game that is closer to what you want?
Quote from: AlanHi Prophet,
All of the Target Numbers are arranged from 10 down - you'll have to reverse them all.
How about CP allocation? Right now, a player can count out his CP in dice and have a physical way to keep track of how many points he's spent in a round. With a single dice mechanic, players will have to keep track of CP spent on paper, or in memory.
Most importantly, changing to a single die system will change the curve for Margins of success:
d10 + X vs. d10 + X
produces a wider range of possible margins than Xd10 vs Xd10. A dagger will make a catastrophic wound much more often with a single die than with multiple. Likewise, a claymore will do scratches more often than it used to.
How do you plan to compensate for this?
All in all, it sounds like a lot of work. Will it be worth it, or is there another game that is closer to what you want?
the original though was to make opposed attack vs defense... using rules similiar to Ars Magica, or Rune.. where you make an attack roll vs an ever changing defense..... granted there would need to be slight changes in the combat structure to allow for this..
Exactly how much of the original combat system are you going to keep?Will you still divide your CP between two exchanges in a round?
I'm curious though. The part you want to alter is pretty big. What is it in TROS that you like if it isn't the combat system? I haven't played Ars Magica nor Rune, but I'll ask anyway; would it be easier to modify those games more towards TROS instead of vice versa?
Quote from: prophet118i like the system... really i do... im just thiking about what i can do to stream line things a bit more... (note, that doesnt mean making anything d20 based..lol)... i have had some plans on convrting the system over to Ars Magica (more specifically Rune)... basically you would roll a d10, and add your attribute, plus your skill, that way if you have a 15 die combat pool, you dont have to worry about 15 dice......
granted this method takes away alot of the theory behind combat.... basically "i'll attack with 5 dice, he only have 4 to defend with..."
i dony particularly care for the way it is now.....i do have plans to keep maneuvers in the game though, and the activation on them would be subtracted from your die roll....
Do you just not like Dicepool systems prophet?
Quote from: MokkurkalfeExactly how much of the original combat system are you going to keep?Will you still divide your CP between two exchanges in a round?
I'm curious though. The part you want to alter is pretty big. What is it in TROS that you like if it isn't the combat system? I haven't played Ars Magica nor Rune, but I'll ask anyway; would it be easier to modify those games more towards TROS instead of vice versa?
im not sure how much i will change, there wont be a division of CP, although the manuevars will still effect what you do, depending on the manuevars activation cost...
as for what is in the system that i like, everything else, except the combat system.... granted the change in the combat system, pretty much changes everything to a single d10, because i feel it is warranted, my players are more interested in a story, not lugging a bunch of d10s around....... which i might add, you do alot more of in this system, than in most white wolf games......but im not here to insult either system.
i think that less emphasis on the number of dice, will allow for a more interesting, and more all encompassing story.. plus i'll be running this at a Con, the less mechanics, the better....
i ran it normal for the first few games, though found my self loathing the combat system, i think it is clever, and well thought out, but not something that i particularly care for
Quote from: Shadeling
Do you just not like Dicepool systems prophet?
not even close, im a rather huge fan of white wolf games: werewolf, changeling, vampire, adventure, exalted.. and a few others, i am just trying a more simplistic approach.......of course we all know that this means a redesign to the difficulties will need to be done, but that wont be too hard
Quote from: prophet118Quote from: MokkurkalfeExactly how much of the original combat system are you going to keep?Will you still divide your CP between two exchanges in a round?
I'm curious though. The part you want to alter is pretty big. What is it in TROS that you like if it isn't the combat system? I haven't played Ars Magica nor Rune, but I'll ask anyway; would it be easier to modify those games more towards TROS instead of vice versa?
im not sure how much i will change, there wont be a division of CP, although the manuevars will still effect what you do, depending on the manuevars activation cost...
as for what is in the system that i like, everything else, except the combat system.... granted the change in the combat system, pretty much changes everything to a single d10, because i feel it is warranted, my players are more interested in a story, not lugging a bunch of d10s around....... which i might add, you do alot more of in this system, than in most white wolf games......but im not here to insult either system.
i think that less emphasis on the number of dice, will allow for a more interesting, and more all encompassing story.. plus i'll be running this at a Con, the less mechanics, the better....
i ran it normal for the first few games, though found my self loathing the combat system, i think it is clever, and well thought out, but not something that i particularly care for
Stupid question here: If you are representing the game at a Con, shouldn't you truly represent the game?
You make fewer large diced rolls in this game than White Wolf. I used to run and play White Wolf games...I became so jaded with the Storyteller system. I played TROS and almost don't want to play anything else...and I was one who didn't like rolling lots of dice.
Have you actually played several sessions with the game as-is?
I have been running a couple TROS games for the last 6-7 months, and not one person has complained about the combat system or anything. There has been more roleplaying from these players than any other system I have ran or played in. It is the SAs and setting, not the rules that help in roleplaying.
Anyway, that is my 2 Stahlnish Marks (I Feel rich today...in game that is)
Quote from: prophet118
the original though was to make opposed attack vs defense... using rules similiar to Ars Magica, or Rune.. where you make an attack roll vs an ever changing defense..... granted there would need to be slight changes in the combat structure to allow for this..
Hi Prophet,
So how would you compensate for the different distribution of margin results between the single die system and the dice pool system. More details please.
Quote from: Shadeling
Stupid question here: If you are representing the game at a Con, shouldn't you truly represent the game?
You make fewer large diced rolls in this game than White Wolf. I used to run and play White Wolf games...I became so jaded with the Storyteller system. I played TROS and almost don't want to play anything else...and I was one who didn't like rolling lots of dice.
Have you actually played several sessions with the game as-is?
I have been running a couple TROS games for the last 6-7 months, and not one person has complained about the combat system or anything. There has been more roleplaying from these players than any other system I have ran or played in. It is the SAs and setting, not the rules that help in roleplaying.
Anyway, that is my 2 Stahlnish Marks (I Feel rich today...in game that is)
actually, were i do run the game as it was originally supposed to be, i would be running Dark Sun D20, however i am not satisfied with some of the elements of the playtest material, so i decided to use the world, and drop a different backbone system to it......and yes, i have run a few sessions as is, i personally didnt care for it., take the die system out, and the rest is fine, i can even get by with the manuevars, but put it back in, and all i seem to come up with, is headaches.
its just an idea though, i may not even run this game at the con
Quote from: prophet118
actually, were i do run the game as it was originally supposed to be, i would be running Dark Sun D20, however i am not satisfied with some of the elements of the playtest material, so i decided to use the world, and drop a different backbone system to it......and yes, i have run a few sessions as is, i personally didnt care for it., take the die system out, and the rest is fine, i can even get by with the manuevars, but put it back in, and all i seem to come up with, is headaches.
its just an idea though, i may not even run this game at the con
I see, you are running it using the Dark Sun setting.
Quote from: AlanHi Prophet,
So how would you compensate for the different distribution of margin results between the single die system and the dice pool system. More details please.
well here goes nothing... i havent actually worked on this just yet, but im willing to give it a go... as i said, manuvers still count against you, as does anything else in the base system that hurts you CP wise... heavy armor, defaulting to another weapon.... ETC
perhaps something to this effect...
6 easy
9 average
12 difficult
17 very difficult
18 heroic
23 near impossible
27 woh.
now obviously the roll is a single D10 plus a number, however the die is open ended.....since i would be using the Rune die system... it would be as such
1D10 + appropriate numbers (depend on task) if a 10 is rolled, roll again, add it to your result....if a 1 is rolled, roll again, that takes away from your result........ id have to look at the system to see what id like to do for defense, however the Rune system uses an opposed attack roll, against a non static defense..... where the defender rolls their defense along with your attack, that may mean the defender gets a pretty shitty roll, or that may mean they get an awesome roll....i do see that this roll would be modified in the same way that the combat attack stuff is modified (IE, restrictive armor, anything that would lower their CP normally)
Quote from: Shadeling
I see, you are running it using the Dark Sun setting.
yes, though the game itself would remain a whole... (note i didnt say system stuff)... basically there wouldnt be any gods or anything, and i wont have any clerics as npcs, im probably not even going to tell them right off that its either TROS or Dark Sun....i simply called the game "The Riddle of the Dark Sun"
Can you give some idea of what you're trying to accomplish with this? You say you don't have a problem with die pool systems, but you obviously have some problem with the die pool system of TROS. Further, rather than try to fix the problem with the die pool, you're electing to scrap the pool in favor of single die resolution, which suggests there's something you REALLY don't like about the current system.
But without some idea of what that is, there is no way to tell whether your proposal fixes it.
But as Alan asked above, echoing my earlier sentiments...what about TROS are you trying to salvage.
You scrapped the world in favor of Dark Sun.
You scrapped the dice mechanics in favor of a single die system.
What are you keeping from TROS at all? The SA's...Maneuvers...Sorcery?
Quote from: ValamirCan you give some idea of what you're trying to accomplish with this? You say you don't have a problem with die pool systems, but you obviously have some problem with the die pool system of TROS. Further, rather than try to fix the problem with the die pool, you're electing to scrap the pool in favor of single die resolution, which suggests there's something you REALLY don't like about the current system.
But without some idea of what that is, there is no way to tell whether your proposal fixes it.
But as Alan asked above, echoing my earlier sentiments...what about TROS are you trying to salvage.
You scrapped the world in favor of Dark Sun.
You scrapped the dice mechanics in favor of a single die system.
What are you keeping from TROS at all? The SA's...Maneuvers...Sorcery?
im almost tempted to not even reply to you, not after your first reply to me... however i think you just had too much caffeine.
so what do i hope to acheive... hmmm... mayhaps a system that i can run, and not have to have every player buy the book, mayhaps something where a new player can pick up the system without a 4 hour lecture... mayhaps nothing.
what am i keeping from TROS... hmmm... well everything except the die system, and the world.....why are you so opposed to this?
i had also gotten the idea a few minutes ago, of not changing the system entirely, just altering, mainly when i thought about sorcery
what would you guys think of a system of pluses..... basically put, if i have a 15 combat pool, you would decide how much of that bonus to use, still allowing for mulitple exchanges, though you would "use" up the parts you had chosen as the bonus..sure maybe a bit too mathmatical, but i see it working definately for sorcery
Quote from: prophet118
what am i keeping from TROS... hmmm... well everything except the die system, and the world.....why are you so opposed to this?
It does seem kinda odd to me that anyone would go through so much work without designing their own game.
Do whatever you like with the system, obviously you will without anyone's approval which you should, I just think that people love TROS so much (me included) that they we don't understand why anyone would change anything about it!
Quote from: Amy1419
It does seem kinda odd to me that anyone would go through so much work without designing their own game.
Do whatever you like with the system, obviously you will without anyone's approval which you should, I just think that people love TROS so much (me included) that they we don't understand why anyone would change anything about it!
because, maybe some people arent happy with things "as they are".... come on, jake gave us the game, to do with it as we want,.... maybe im just reading too much into that....
Quote from: prophet118Quote from: AlanHi Prophet,
So how would you compensate for the different distribution of margin results between the single die system and the dice pool system. More details please.
perhaps something to this effect...
6 easy
9 average
12 difficult
17 very difficult
18 heroic
23 near impossible
27 woh.
now obviously the roll is a single D10 plus a number, however the die is open ended.....since i would be using the Rune die system... it would be as such
Okay, so how do you determine Wound Level from this?
Quote from: Alan
Okay, so how do you determine Wound Level from this?
very descent question, as i had to refresh myself with the standard way, which (unless i missed something), was simple strength, plus the rating of the weapon, plus whatever margin..... which was based on the number of successes... Rune does this as well...... however Rune is alot bloodier than TROS, so id probably have to scale some things back a little...
however....... the base system still work......since they are still rolling something to defend with, your margin may only be a little bit, so if your margin is say 9, plus str (lets go with 4), and your weapon allowed for stre +1, you would hit with 14.....however were i to use the method i just mentioned (the bonuses thing)....... the only thing that would change from the base system, is the number of dice you roll..
Sorry Proph...but I still can't see where you're going. Can you put a damper on the stream of conciousness posts and just answer the question please.
What is broken with the current system in your view that you are trying to fix. You have some vague ramblings about 4 hour lectures and players who won't buy the book, but what does this mean? You think the game is mechanically complicated and you're trying to make it simpler? What specific aspects are complicated? At its core TROS is one of the more mechanically SIMPLE systems out there.
Please list what elements of the system you're finding difficult and how your proposed solution will help address that...because I'm not seeing what shifting from "choose number of dice to roll" to "choose number to add to a die roll" accomplishes.
As for what are you keeping...I'll ask that again because your answer "everything else" is pretty unhelpful. There are 3 things that define Riddle of Steel as a game. The combat system, the SA system, and the magic system. Of those the magic system is the least important.
Everything else, while it works quite well, is not all that different from a dozen other RPGs out there. Attributes, skills, skill packages, all perfectly functional...but if these are the elements you're striving to keep I'm at a loss...because they are present in just as good form elsewhere. In other words, it hardly seems worth while to struggle to rewrite a system just so you can use TROS's 10 attributes, handful of skill packages, and a few gifts and flaws. You can get those things anywhere.
What is it specifically about TROS that is unique to TROS that you can't get simply by playing a different game, that you are trying to salvage?
Quote from: prophet118because, maybe some people arent happy with things "as they are".... come on, jake gave us the game, to do with it as we want,.... maybe im just reading too much into that....
I think you very much misinterperet Ralph's concern. You can, of course, do whatever you like with the game. How could Ralph or anyone else stop you?
But it just seems like for all the effort you're putting into the game that, well, you very much are designing a whole new game (as Amy puts it). I mean saying that you're using TROS but not using the combat system is like saying that you're building a Ferrari Testarosa but not using the V12 exoticar engine. Well, it'll look like a Ferrari, but it won't run like one.
That said, it's also fine to build your own game. But what does it have to do with TROS at that point? You might be better served taking it over to the Design forum. It's axiomatic that modifying a game heavily is a sure way to break it, and when you get to a certain point you're just better off designing from the ground up. For example, maybe you can also devise a character generation system that's more suitable for what you want. Certainly TROS social rules don't really fit the Dark Sun universe, for example.
Or, perhaps you can find a game that fits the bill for you without any redesign at all. Have you seen Zenobia (http://www.nicholcentral.com/jon/rpg/zenobia/index.html), for example? It has dice pool exchanges that don't involve any more tactics than most other games, but deliver results that are somewhat like TROS's. Very simple and easy to learn, and you can download the rules for free making as many copies as you may need.
Mike
*Edited to note that I cross-posted with Ralph.
yeh.. guess you guys are right, instead of bringing the fun of TROS to the masses, i should just drop the game entirely, thanks for helping me see the light.
Quote from: prophet118yeh.. guess you guys are right, instead of bringing the fun of TROS to the masses, i should just drop the game entirely, thanks for helping me see the light.
You're getting quite defensive Prophet, I seriously don't think Ralph and Mike are mocking you. They're just asking questions to try to draw you out to talk about your ideas more. Remember that the written (well, typed) word doesn't carry inflections of voice or face, so it's more easy to misunderstand the tone of a comment than it would be if everyone was sitting around a coffee house having this conversation.
For myself, although this may sound flippant, I'm a little confused as to how you would be bringing TROS to the masses with a meshed together system using Dark Sun, Rune, Ars Magica and some elements of TROS that I can't quite make out (not Combat or the Setting, perhaps you're just keeping the SA's and Skill System? I'm not sure, you have not been clear as to what you like). If you sell this system to people at a Con and call it TROS, they're not going to have been given a fair introduction to the game, are they?
Brian.
but ask yourself brian, whos mocking who... i felt my comment was best left as is, with tongue firmly placed in cheek... but thats just me i guess. I'll probably use the Rune system for the game anyway, no sense in changing "so" much of TROS, i'l just start using it as a sourcebook, it'll get demoted to the same status as star wars d6, and my old AD&D books...thats ok though, they still serve a purpose
wha? Ok, I am jumping into this late, but perhaps as a 3rd party observer I can note that these people aren't arguing with you prophet, you are reading tone into a post, difficult at best, risky at worse. What people want to know in order to respond apropriately is what about TROS you like specifically, and what specifically causes you problems. From that what would you want to keep, modify and throw out becomes clear and what suggestions we should offer becomes more apparent.
I doubt there was any malice involved.
So what works for your group? what doesn't? and why would that be the case? To complex, to steep a learning curve, necessity of paper work?
Let us know so we can offer decent advice.
Quote from: prophet118but ask yourself brian, whos mocking who... i felt my comment was best left as is, with tongue firmly placed in cheek... but thats just me i guess. I'll probably use the Rune system for the game anyway, no sense in changing "so" much of TROS, i'l just start using it as a sourcebook, it'll get demoted to the same status as star wars d6, and my old AD&D books...thats ok though, they still serve a purpose
But Brian does have a point, kind of the same one I made earlier-if you are trying to demonstrate TROS to people, you should give people TROS, not a changed TROS.
And no one was telling you not to play TROS, they were just asking you reasonable questions.
mayhaps, but you guys made me realize that the system as a whole cant stand change, it'll crumble, so im going to stop trying, i'll simply run it using a different system, one more like what i wanted.
Quote from: prophet118mayhaps, but you guys made me realize that the system as a whole cant stand change, it'll crumble, so im going to stop trying, i'll simply run it using a different system, one more like what i wanted.
Not crumble...but systems are generally designed the way they are intentionally.
I'm finding myself hard-pressed not to answer something extremely curt and more than a little rude. I will attempt to be polite. I really will.
I have seen absolutely nothing of any worth in this thread from you, prophet. I've seen things of merit from you in the past, which makes this all the more bewildering. Regardless, this thread..
Ahem. You don't like the combat system, you don't like the die-pool system. What is it that you do like? Maneuvers? Fine, use them. Anything else? If not, then this thread has nothing to do with TRoS, and really doesn't belong in this forum.
...well, I tried to be polite.
Take this as a piss-poor attitude if you will. I really don't care.
Prophet-
What do you want to keep? Why? Acentuate the positive, you know.
This thread is closed until Prophet answers. If he never does, than it's closed forever. Once he answers, we're have a better idea of where to go. I personally feel that (a) he can do whatever he wants with TROS in his own house, (b) Demos in public venues should be "vanilla" whenever possible, and (c) Prophet might be happier with another game, or with a TROS-something else hybrid. Let's all just be happy.
Jake
what do i like about TROS
- simplistic system for playing, which focuses more on the players and story, than on DM driven plot
- players have a real chance to actually contribute to the game
- the sorcery system is as free form as i would like it to be, which i have tried to simulate before, since i cant stand wizards, but love playing sorcerers
- i like the margin system on damage, but Atlas games has been doing this for a long time, , in Rune specifically, but i do beleive in Ars Magica as well..
- stats are great, as are SAs as they give direction to a character, without having to deal with alignments
- combat manuevers are generally acceptable, though usually my players complain about "thats all i can do?"
- the skill system is a nice change from the standard D20 system, and i like the packages, very nice and thought out
things i dont like
- the amount of dice, they simply get in the way, though the method is interesting, my players were always tossing everything in at once, and when asked, they said they preferred that, even mentioning Rune by name
- the sorcery system could be a bit longer... maybe more levels, as is its easy to master many vageries at creation, and then have nothing left to strive for magically
- my group desires less focus on the die pool system, and more focus on just getting the job done, if they wanted chess, they would play chess
i truely only have a few complaints, but they are important to me. Usually anytime i started tweaking a game, even the the smallest degree, the purest come out and threaten to burn me at the stake. i changed Rune to fit my players, and their styles, but that got me branded a heretic, i altered D&D 3rd ed to fit more closely to what i wanted to see, and most of my friends refused to play, though they still complain about the base system.
i know that if i am running this at a convention, i should do it vanilla, but when you only have 5 hours to get a story across to someone, sacrifices must be made. i had no intention of letting too many people know about TROS, only if they asked, at which time i would tell them that i had altered the rules base, and if they ask why, i'll simply say, for ease of play, and quickness of pace.
there is truely nothing more i can say.. however i do know that if i change this system, and you roll a single die, there would be no true room for error, and pretty much everyone would succeed at skills. But honestly, on 7 dice, i can gaurentee you that i will rollat least 5 successes at any given time, unless the difficulty is outrageous. My method would level the playing field, letting anyone have at least a chance at a great success
I find it curious that you think that dice takes away so much from the
story telling. Granted, when you have to look for them on the floor, it might take up some time better used for other things... :-)
Still, some reflections:
On the "that's all I can do?" comment, maneuvers they're usually pretty easy to come up with on the fly. Almost all are a variation on giving you more dice or making your opponent lose dice.
You'll probably see more sorcery stuff in Sorcery and the Fey.
The main issue for you seem to be that tros uses too many dice. Fine. Personally, I like using a lot of them. You and your group obviously don't. So if you still want to play tRoS, then of course you should change it. The tricky thing is that while changing the dice mechanic is a pretty small thing in and of itself, it is the very foundation of the game. This means that there can be a *lot* of unforseen consequences and potential unbalancing. The only way to find them all would be to playtest it. A lot.
Still, if it works, then good for you.
Oh, one thing that confuses me. Your thought on the margin system on damage. You put it in your list of things you don't like, but you say that you like it. From your post, it looks like you like margin systems on damage in general, but not in tRoS, because Atlas games did it first. Is that correct?
yeh, the margin thing shoud have gone on the likes... i cant even remember what my original point was for that one... something about the wounds i think... i'll edit it and move it to the like section
i flip flopped two of them, the damage thing moved to things i liked, and the dice pool thing moved to things i dont
prophet118 brings up an interesting thought. Is it possible to make a dice-light version of TROS?
For reference, I like the TROS style of dice pool. Instead of juggling difficulty values and modifiers in my head, I just add and subtract dice in my hand. Means I can focus more on the play of the game. I do enough map in my dayjob to not want to bother to much with number-crunching (even small values), during one of my favorite hobbies.
The problem I see with taking out the dice pool is that you lose the ability for players to make strategic decisions in the game, unless you track more things on paper.
So instead of doing a 2 die attack vs. DTN followed by an 8 die defense vs. DTN in a turn as is portrayed in standard TROS, in a dice light system I would do a d10 + Proficiency + Attribute + Modifiers attack versus a d10 + Proficiency + Attribute + Modifiers defense. The combat pool could be added in as a modifier each round, and would (as I said earlier) have to be tracked on paper. Compare the total rolls of attacker versus defender and figure out damage.
The d10 roll and its wide spread versus TROS smaller number factors means that the difference between weapons and people is trivialized, so perhaps you should use an exploding d6 or d8.
In any case, this is Ars Magica 3rd Edition, or maybe Rune (never played it). Ars Magica 4th Edition combat is wretchedly broken, with the whip being the best and most lethal weapon around, and armor causing you to take more damage instead of less!
Anyway, in my experience of running convention games for Sengoku and FUDGE and Godlike, I've found that simplification of the core system is usually better than completely revising a game system. In the case of TROS, I would probably run with a version of the free rules in a convention. I would make clear that we were doing a rules-light version of the game, and have some NPC or two use some of the more complicated rules (like Sorcery). I would also keep the setting as familiar as possible, doing something like a Chivalric tournament, complete with jousting and pol-axe bouts, with a murder mystery to add spice to things.
So, prophet118, I hope that is helpful!
i actually havent played Ars Magica, mainly because i dont really want to buy it, or download the free 4th edition pdf..its not my thing..... Rune was closer from a combat system, so what i desired.... basically a weapon had an attack rating, an initiative raiting, a defense rating and a damage rating...
the weapons final was determined by the weapon stats, your stat, and then your skill....basically you just wrote down all the relevant numbers on the front sheet, and you were pretty much done....
of course the skill system was prety much similiar to any other ST game, sorta..... roll 1 d10 (theres the difference) the add skill plus attribute
armor gave whats called protection rating, which adds to your soak.....so you would add your stamina, plus armor protection, then have your soak,, which could be as low as 0, or around 6 or 7 starting.... you took that muych off the damage... anythign over would hurt you..... they also had my fav thing.... wound threshold, basically you wouldnt take an official wound until the damage went over your wound threshold... if it went over twice, you would take two wounds... and so on...
the problem was that wound thresholds could easily get outrageous.... upwards of 10-15
Quote from: prophet118i actually havent played Ars Magica, mainly because i dont really want to buy it, or download the free 4th edition pdf..its not my thing..... Rune was closer from a combat system, so what i desired.... basically a weapon had an attack rating, an initiative raiting, a defense rating and a damage rating...
Ars Magica has an awesome magic system. Worth looking into just for that, that is for sure, especially as the game is now free. Combat and skill wise, I don't like it. Combat is the typical roll-off you get in every other RPG with the added onus of unrealistic weapons and armor. Skills are problematic since the dice roll is so much more important than your stats and/or skills. My wife's Ars Magica game uses the Godlike rules for skill checks and combat, since that works so much better and was easy to tack on. Now if only I could switch her to TROS for skills and combat...
Quoteof course the skill system was prety much similiar to any other ST game, sorta..... roll 1 d10 (theres the difference) the add skill plus attribute
Ahh... but the dice roll makes the attribute and skill in any check not as important as luck. The roll is too wide, with no bell curve. That means that Joe the Farmer can all too easily best Frank the Fisher in fishing contests. Compare that to the bell-curving action of TROS. In that, Joe the Farmer can still beat Frank the Fisher, but it doesn't happen so often.
well with Rune, all the PCs are vikings, and are not the norm, ya know?
the npcs may have a skill or two, but if joe the farmer would like to have a contested leadership roll with the villiage leader, hes probably going to fail....lol
not having a skill gives you a -3 to your roll, and not having the equipment (if skill needs equipment) nets a -2 on top of that...
i know that may not make them even, but then to inspire the people it isnt hard, but the stats system ranging from -3 to +3, (i think just like AM, but i dont know for sure)
that modifies your roll as well, joe farmer is likely going to have a 0 or -1 in communication, whcih is the attribute used for leadership (if im not mistake, the book is in my car)
Well to comment on a couple of your points:
The number of dice do not get in the way at all. Sure the combat system takes a little getting used to, but after the learning curve, things go very smoothly. Take it from someone who has been running the game for quite sometime now (6+ months, 2 games, a couple characters have enough insight for bonus C priorities, almost bonus B). No one has had a problem with the dice, even me who doesn't normally like dice pools. If the system is being run the right way, especially combat, then there shouldn't be a massive release of all the dice in the pool. Characters who use all their dice in one attack, generally leave themselves open for a retribution. One player used to do this alot. After he suffered a level 4 inner thigh wound, and a level 4 head wound, he decided to be more prudent. Sure there are the characters who will do this-use all their pool in one shot, but they will quickly be taking a dirt nap.
Secondly on your point of more dice=more success. This does not necessarily hold true. I had a character with 7 Wit in a game I played. On a Ridicule roll, he only got a single success. Another example is the PC from the above example-the one who used to use all his combat pool. Even with ATN of 6 from his morning star, and using a 9 dice attack, I have seen several instances where he only got meager successes-2-3.
Hope this helps in demonstrating what I see in the system. This is no attack, just a demonstration.
well those are your experiences, with your group, i cant just expect my group to play a game whose mechanics they loathe, it just isnt that simple.
Hey prophet! Are you going to keep the exchange system for combat? Where you have a certain number of dice/points to add to each exchange of blows?
well... for now i have dropped this, i have a convention to get ready for (ok so its in october)... lol.... i have 5 games to plan out, for right now im updating the Rune system to handle a more medival setting (instead of viking)... it'll have to do until i can devote more time.
Man, that is a lot of converting work just so one don't have to have a handful of dice in front of one.
I suppose if your group lothes it. But I just don't know how much I could really hate a small pile of dice, or how much other people I know or have spoken to could hate it. Hunger and war in the world, I can get angry over that...little pile of dice...I'm constipated when it comes to that, perhaps.
Perhaps if it also gets in the way of the adventure. I'm not sure how to help, since I don't think my players even think twice about the dice in front of them. They just seem intent on the story, not letting themselves get distracted by minutae around them. Will the people at the Con be like this too?
Besides, I'd like to say I'm not a freak or jumper of throats, since on the first page freaks was mentioned plural, even though only one person had posted.
Quote from: prophet118well those are your experiences, with your group, i cant just expect my group to play a game whose mechanics they loathe, it just isnt that simple.
Your group loathes it. That is a pretty strong choice of words. They hate it for the same reasons you do?
By the way those aren't just my experiences, have you noticed everyone else has said some similar things in this and other posts?
Anyway, just some q's.
Prophet:
Read the thread and just had to dive in. Currently playing EXALTED, where your dice pool easily climbs to 20+ dice. In bringing this to game to my group, I discovered the following:
1) The first time we played, my players (use to D20 and GURPS) HATED the dice pools. They hated picking through the dice, seeing how many successes they had. By our third game, they dug it. A lot of players (especially those with Gamist tendencies) are highly resistant to trying systems they're not used to, because new systems are harder to "win" with. You know what I mean: any experienced player, munchkin or not, can exploit the hell out of a system they know.
2) It's easy, especially for GMs, to figure out, on average, how many dice it takes to roll a success, and use that to speed up large combats that at first may seem daunting. Your players are taking on a lot of cannon fodder, so instead of rolling for PUDs, you assume they roll an average number of successes and let the player rolls determine the outcome.
3) If you have a PDA, there are several dice rolling programs that handle dice pools.
I used to hate dice pools, and now I find that system tied with my old favorite, the percentile, for the best way to roll bones.
Anyway, not to convert you, but I think it's best to give a system several tries, so that when you do make changes, it's coming from the specific experience and not unfamiliarity.
For example, I've playtested TROS with a friend twice now, and he doesn't like it because it's too realistic. His complaint is, whoever hits first, wins. He doesn't dispute the realism, he just doesn't like it. He wants to play a game where a hobbit with enough levels can take out a dragon in a stand up fight, god bless him, and I accept that, and when I run TROS, I won't invite him (or if I do, I'll warn him we're playing THAT game).
Wife's pissed now. Must go rub feet.
and that last line is half the reason I avoid marriage as if I was a hobbit in a stand up fight with a dragon.......
Quote from: spunkyWife's pissed now. Must go rub feet.
Quote from: Ashren Va'Haleand that last line is half the reason I avoid marriage as if I was a hobbit in a stand up fight with a dragon.......
Clearly, you're not a fan of White Wolf's latest, FETISH: The Polishing...
Quote from: spunkyHe wants to play a game where a hobbit with enough levels can take out a dragon in a stand up fight, god bless him, and I accept that,
So he has yet to reach 5 in Destiny to Kill a Dragon, Drive to prove Himself, and Passion for Princess Draconella, who must have a dragon heart to reclaim her throne? He could do a lot with 15 extra dice.
Quote from: AlanQuote from: spunkyHe wants to play a game where a hobbit with enough levels can take out a dragon in a stand up fight, god bless him, and I accept that,
So he has yet to reach 5 in Destiny to Kill a Dragon, Drive to prove Himself, and Passion for Princess Draconella, who must have a dragon heart to reclaim her throne? He could do a lot with 15 extra dice.
He could indeed. But even with those extra dice, in a stand-up fight, I'm laying coin on the worm. Do you think the Princess would mind if he killed the dragon real quiet-like?