There's been a lot of talk around here lately about Genre Expectations, particularly in relation to Fang's 'No Myth' style. Now, it seems to me that Genre Expectations have to be defined communally, before play, and in a fairly narrow band, in order to provide for functional play. Keep in mind that I'm approaching this from an almost completely Sim angle.
My questions are:
a) Is this necessarily true for Sim play, or for other styles/modes? If not, what other ways, means and times provide for functional play, and what advantages/disadvantages do they offer?
b) What needs to be defined? How narrowly, and to what depth? Should expectations be prioritised?
c) What are practical ways to define Genre Expectations with a group of players? What if they're hesitant to do so?
Now, that's a fair swathe of topic areas right there, from the theoretical to the specific and practical. So I'll understand if people want to respond in new threads (so long as you post a link in this one, for ease of navigation). Oh, and I'm sure this area has at least been touched on previously, so feed me all the links you've got to past threads too.
Genre Expectations is a term on which Fang has rather specifically focused in developing Scattershot, and you can probably get a great deal of information from his forum in the Independent Games forums.
I have no particular devotion to them in most of the games I play. That is, I think they exist, but that they don't much matter.
It may be that genre expectations are a way of covering a great deal of ground in a rules-lite system that would be covered by mechanics in a rules heavy system. Bias does a great deal of that in Multiverser, for example. Scattershot would (I think) say that magic can't be used in this setting because the genre expectations forbid it; Multiverser would say that magic is biased out in this universe, and what little that is possible is very difficult and not terribly effective. Thus I think genre expectations are something of a shortcut to getting agreement on a slew of rules that aren't codified in the mechanics.
Does that help?
--M. J. Young
Genre rules, or Genre guidelines more accurately, are critically important in certain types of games. Without them, the games/ stories become odd or unrecognizable.
Superheroic games live by their basic genre rules. If you don't follow the "rules", you don't have a recognizable super hero game. The rules or tropes need to be observed, or else you have some odd modern game with bizzare crunchy bits. While many of the rules can be bent or broken, a majority of the rules must be maintained lest you get a game that does not meet player expection (generally). Buzz about campaigns and the rules can be found in the Hero and GreenRonin boards. The avid players in the genre are very strict about their rules.
Martial arts games also live by there genre rules. This is not just Wuxia, but games that focus on martial arts, honor, discipline, and the personal development. Though these martial arts games are normally campaigns using rule systems that support martial arts (Gurps, Corps, Hero, and some modified Shadowfist), not following the genre rules gives you a split mix of characters with martial arts being overshadowed by (modern) weapondry. KHAT! gives you a strong emphasis for the genre and the rules (In fact the game supports the five main subgenres of the HK film industry). As KHAT! players will tell you, a modern game with martial arts in it, is not always a martial arts game. There is a whole "flow" that they expect in these games. If it is not there, the players are let down (though they still might like the action game).
Mecha orriented games also function with significant genre rules- mostly impacting what tech is acceptable and existing. Without genre rules supporting them, mecha (even gear) would not function in a rational environment. Gurps mecha makes this argument.
Pulp games have genre rules. Characters must be larger than life. The locals should be exotic. The line between the hero and villian are well defined. If you don't have these rules, you don't have a pulp game, you have some other kind of game set in the 20s and 30s or what ever setting. If you have those rules, you can have pulp science fiction or pulp horror, or what ever... you get the idea. Pulp is an attitude, a focus, a feel, that defines the genre, rather than any setting based rules.
Are their genre rules that we have to follow in other genres of game? A case could be made for Cyberpunk, Cthullic Horror, Swords and Planets (JC of Mars, Carson of Venus, etc), but many just say that requires setting elements. Fantasy and Science Fiction are such broad genre categories (that frequently overlap) that there are no over all genre rules for each one.
So they do exist, and depending on the type of game you are playing, they matter a great deal.
Quote from: soundwaveThere's been a lot of talk around here lately about Genre Expectations, particularly in relation to Fang's 'No Myth' style. Now, it seems to me that Genre Expectations have to be defined communally, before play, and in a fairly narrow band, in order to provide for functional play. Keep in mind that I'm approaching this from an almost completely Sim angle.
My questions are:[list=a]- Is this necessarily true for Sim play, or for other styles/modes? If not, what other ways, means and times provide for functional play, and what advantages/disadvantages do they offer?
- What needs to be defined? How narrowly, and to what depth? Should expectations be prioritized?
- What are practical ways to define Genre Expectations with a group of players? What if they're hesitant to do so?[/list:o]Now, that's a fair swathe of topic areas right there, from the theoretical to the specific and practical. So I'll understand if people want to respond in new threads (so long as you post a link in this one, for ease of navigation). Oh, and I'm sure this area has at least been touched on previously, so feed me all the links you've got to past threads too.
Since I coined the term originally, I expect it's my do; h'okay.
One thing you have to remember is there's a lot of ways to 'define communally.' One of the most familiar (and least recognized) is, "Hey, let's play [such and so]!" That's right, most game systems incorporate their own Genre Expectations. Most go far enough to narrow them appropriately, although the presentation is often naïve at best and barely suggestive at worst. But we can do Simulative or Simulationist (depending on what you really mean).[list=a]
- I think Genre Expectations are as important as a game's creative agenda, when it comes to 'what there is to do' in a game, regardless of mode or style. Would it be cyberpunk without the chromed limbs and 'net-diving? Then those are in the Genre Expectations. The chief reason this hasn't really come up before (in game design) is because most people have a lot of preconceived notions regarding their favorite genres and never really considered if they shared these with the people they play with. Spelling out the Genre Expectations allows you to avoid potential genre-clash (like wanting to play a chromed out soldier ala Masamune Shirow's Appleseed in Fasa's Shadowrun; both cyberpunk, but radically different).
In the past, the primary means I've seen of providing functional play on this level has been sidebar fiction, examples of play, heavy motifing of the layout, reading lists, and anything else that communicates 'what to play' without spelling it out. (I'm actually not sure that any one way is 'the best way' simply that I plan on using a Genre Expectations 'checklist' for each game I write to make sure I didn't miss anything crucial.) High page-count games have, in the past, had the luxury of providing a Genre Expectation at least by implication. Newer games, 'lighter' games, and the like have lived and died on how well they communicate these in their limited amount of space.
The big drawback to an explicit list of Genre Expectations is that it has a tendency of distancing the consumer from the game (it can be a bit cold and unegaging). 'Color fiction' runs the twin risk of boring them or failing to communicate the myriad 'things to do' in a game. Unfortunately, opinions are highly divided on the values of each of these techniques. One of the principle reasons that people are so convinced that 'tailored systems' are necessary to evoke the proper play (and atmosphere) to games is because 'whatever is important enough to make rules for,' is also generally 'what you are supposed to do' in the game. This is a prime, traditional way of communicating the game's Genre Expectations. As always, different people have different tastes. I'm high on the list of people who claim that a 'Generalist' game system can be made that rivals 'tailored systems' for evoking what the game designer wants, provided it's system is broad enough and the Genre Expectations are clear enough (and I'll stake my game - Scattershot - on that).
- Define the world in as much detail as needed (a cop out I'm sure). For Simulative games, this is where the equipment lists come in. (How many equipment lists have 'this is only a fraction of what is available' on them? That's because they are usually understood to be 'the ultimate limit' of 'what you can get.) Will there be maps? Get them into the Genre Expectation. Cityscapes? Notable people? Worthwhile valuables? They go it too, as much or as little specificity as you like. What's really important is noting what it 'too much' for the Genre Expectations. (Things like 'no plasma blasters' or 'no orbital weapons' are an example.)
The depth depends on how much freedom players have to 'make stuff up.' If you can't afford them making up all manner of weaponry every time they open a locker, make a list for the Genre Expectations. If you don't care what vintage of what vintner goes best with what meat, leave it off. In this way Genre Expectations offer a limit and guide for 'how far you can go' in 'making stuff up.' The advantage here is that the players won't need to pussyfoot around once they've seen where the best stuff is kept, looking for more.
I think the categories of Genre Expectations can be prioritized but the very act of prioritizing the expectations themselves should guide you to the cut off point. (After you prioritize your list, ask yourself "Do I really need to get into that much detail?" and cut the list there.) Prioritizing the components of a Genre Expectation can tell you much about what you are running. The components listed in the Techniques of Genre Expectations (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3572) are actually meant to be whittled down to 'just what's necessary' based upon playing style and depth needed.
Do you need to specify the Metaphor and
how the Motif applies or can you just get by with Central Concept, what the Motif is, and whatever Running Gags seem good? Does the source material or inspiration really tell much about Persona, Background, Props, Relationships, Circumstances, and Sequences? Or does it just give blueprints for Persona, Background, Props, and Relationships? Is there a lot of guidance for Personae, but not much for Background? You get the picture.[/list:u]
- The most practical way is to discuss what'd be cool to play. Talk in examples, movies, stories, and the like. The important thing is to get no more technical than they like; if you turn them off with too much jargon, forget it. If the hesitate, switch to 'big visuals.' If you're talking "it addresses the question of humanity metaphorically by taking it away via virtual reality or cybernetic limbs" and they start looking at the television guidebook, jump to "it's like Johnny Mnemonic and Minority Report with street level tech that looks like it was made for Back to the Future or Honey, I Shrunk the Kids." It's an art and a dance to communicate a Genre Expectation well and quickly. Mostly get the players jazzed on 'what they can do' and 'what they don't need to worry about' and you'll be fine.[/list:o]If you want to write one for a game, I can't help you; I'm still trying to figure that out myself. So far......It's never been done.[/list:u]Fang Langford
Hi Fang,
I find the movie/book/source idea works wonders. I usually require a group to come up with 2 or 3 sources, such as movies to define a style to a game, and try to get a chance for everyone to watch the movies, read the books or comics, play the videogames, or otherwise experience the source material.
I find this method goes a long way towards establishing Genre Expectations, provides great examples("See? Heroes never get hurt from long falls, let's make that a rule!"), and works wonders for folks who don't necessarily get the "explicit" points of Genre Expectations.
Chris
Universalis Tenets at the beginning of play are often used to establish Genre Expectations (or limitations, occasionally; like my "No Zombies" Tenet in a recent game). This is one of the things that the text suggests that they be used for, in fact, though it simply uses the term Genre. Other than that, Genre gets set in play by the actual play itself.
In any case, allowing the player to help define the genre certainly makes it easier to stick with the Genre, I've found. No surprise, really.
Mike