I've been thinking about how missile combat (bows and such) work in TROS. Currently, it's quite realistic, true, having to take a prep time, then wait a round or two for your missle pool to refresh to a point where you might be able to do something.
However, the refreshing missile pool doesn't work so well for a faster paced style of archery (the SciFi thread applies here too). Legolas is quite hard to mimic under TROS, with his greased-lighting archery style. It's great for snipers, but not so good for people who want to just nock, point, and loose, or to point and pull a trigger.
With that in mind, I came up with this idea. Have the missile pool be usable at it's full value, but if used as such, the TNs for the weapon are increased by 2 (or 3 if that's too easy). By taking rounds to aim, the missle pool dice become aim dice at the normal rate, which can be used at the standard TN.
So, if you had an Aim of 5, 15 dice in your missile pool, and using a bow with an attack TN of 6, you could fire a shot at 15 dice with a TN 8. Or, you could wait a round, then fire with 5 dice at TN 6, and 10 dice at TN8, or wait two rounds and then shoot with 10 dice at TN 6, and 5 dice at TN8...etc....
I think it would work quite well for a faster style of ranged combat, especially with more modern weapons. There's still a lot of value in aiming, but it's not completely necessary if you want to fire a shot as fast as possible.
IMC I found that the easiest way to speed up archery was just to fix combat rounds at 2 seconds (by default they're variable 1-2). Since ranged combat works in seconds but people usually equate that to combat rounds, by making rounds 2 seconds you've just sped up archery by a factor of 2. It has the additional benefit of allowing missile fire to be loosed between exchanges etc.
Works pretty well, and since I made that change nobody has complained about the speed of archery when melee is going on.
Brian.
Quote from: MortaneusLegolas is quite hard to mimic under TROS, with his greased-lighting archery style.
I don't think that the problem lies in the missle system, but rather the characters useing it. If takes to account al of the other subtle and not so subtle things legolos does, it seems pretty evident that he has both AG and Per out the yin yang. Haveing such, he can easily squeeze of shots with out taking time to for a full refresh and still drop a few dice to speed up the prep time.
If your players are haveing trouble imitating Legolas, it probably because they don't messure up.
Well, I'm also looking at it in terms of guns and blasters and such. Having to pause for even a second before you can take a shot doesn't work very well in that context. The moment the weapon is in your hand, you can start firing with at least a modicum of accuracy.
I'm also looking at it in terms of more cinematic archery. Aiming isn't necessary, even for a second. Once that arrow is nocked and drawn (the prep time), you should be able to fire it.
Heck, it's not even that cinematic. I'm a halfway decent archer myself, and as long as the arrow is nocked I can raise from the hip, draw, and fire in no more than a second with at least a decent chance of hitting a close target. My pinpoint accuracy will be non-existant, but I can hit the target. I'm looking for a way to mimic that in TROS, without making someone wait for their die pool to get some dice in it.
Just thought of another point. Knife-throwing. No refresh time should be necessary. A second is WAY too long.
Currently the system can model half of the action. Drawing the knife in effectively no time is simply done at a cost of MP dice (speeding the prep).
However, if the thrower wants to immediatly flick the knife at a target, he has to wait at least a second for some MP dice to use, or he has absolutely no chance of hitting (having no dice to roll).
That's nonsensical. There are whole styles of martial arts that involve producing thrown weapons from concealed locations and throwing them at an opponent, all in a single motion. Currently, there's no way to model this in TROS.
Historically, a good longbowman was expected to be able to fire six shots in thirty seconds with good accuracy. Real pros could manage 8.
That's 4-5 seconds a shot, which works out pretty much exactly right when modelled in TROS.
I believe that you can lift and fire an arrow in a second (already nocked). Try doing it as fast as you can and shooting off multiple arrows and you'll slow down. History doesn't lie. Remember also that you're using modern bows and arrows, but in TROS we're talking closer to the historical stuff which was not as good quality.
Ignore films as a source of information. Orlando Bloom could not possibly have drawn and fired arrows that fast, trained or not. He was just moving his hand up and down and they digitally drew in the arrows.
Brian.
(edit: Guns Schmuns. Take a close look at the rulebook and you'll find no rules for guns. You're taking the missile weapon rules and saying that they're unrealistic for guns. Apples and Oranges.)
Quote from: Brian LeybourneHistorically, a good longbowman was expected to be able to fire six shots in thirty seconds with good accuracy. Real pros could manage 8.
That's 4-5 seconds a shot, which works out pretty much exactly right when modelled in TROS.
That's the thing. I'm NOT talking about good accuracy, with well considered shots. I'm talking getting the arrow in the air heading at least in the direction of the target as fast as you can. Having to wait at least a second after prep to even have a chance of hitting doesn't work for that.
Quote
Ignore films as a source of information. Orlando Bloom could not possibly have drawn and fired arrows that fast, trained or not. He was just moving his hand up and down and they digitally drew in the arrows.
I am aware of this fact. I was merely using legolas as a widely known example of cinematic archery.
Quote
(edit: Guns Schmuns. Take a close look at the rulebook and you'll find no rules for guns. You're taking the missile weapon rules and saying that they're unrealistic for guns. Apples and Oranges.)
This too, I am aware of. I'm not condemning the system for it. I love TROS. For melee combat purposes, it is, bar none, the single best rules system I've ever seen for modelling the real flow of a fight.
I'm not saying the system should be changed. What I'm attempting to do is MODIFY the system to suit other purposes, in the same way the people in the SciFi thread are doing, and am seeking feedback on what I consider a decent modification to allow gun/blaster based action.
If you take this as an attack on a truly awesome RPG, then I've given the wrong impression. Besides, I think TROS is such a good game that that it doesn't need to be defended. It can do that on it's own. :)
Oh, I wasn't taking it as an attack, just rebutting. Devils advocate and all that :-) It would be a boring world if everyone agreed all the time. TROS has its flaws, but can stand a lot of close scrutiny.
Of course you're free to modify TROS in whatever way you see fit, you've bought the book so it's your RPG now. I just think you're wrong in this one area :-)
Brian.
A quick and easy solution to your first-round waiting period is to simply take off the refresh time for the first round of aiming. You get your first X amount of dice from your pool immediately upon nocking and pointing the bow (or cocking back the dagger). It won't be your most accurate shot, but you can do it.
Cinematic rapid fire with minimal modification.
Quote from: WolfenCinematic rapid fire with minimal modification.
Once again the voice of reason takes all the fun out of being difficult and argumentative :-)
Brian.
Quote from: MortaneusWell, I'm also looking at it in terms of guns and blasters and such. Having to pause for even a second before you can take a shot doesn't work very well in that context. The moment the weapon is in your hand, you can start firing with at least a modicum of accuracy.
I'm also looking at it in terms of more cinematic archery. Aiming isn't necessary, even for a second. Once that arrow is nocked and drawn (the prep time), you should be able to fire it.
"MP refresh begins as soon as a weapon is in posistion" pg82
to me that says as you have dice as soon as it's knocked. For, bows its as easy and cinematicly 'acurate' as Aim and Wit out the ying yang.
Guns however are a different critter all togather and as such won't work the same as the primatives. Hows about this, for any semiauto(includeing revolvers) just give the first refresh sum once it's pointed and since there is not really any prep time on moderns or advanced and the thing is already pointed, give it again for every squeeze of the trigger. For guns with recoil, assign an accumulative recoil penalty for every shot after the first. For guns with no recoil, well no penalty. For energy type weapons, you might consider a weapon refresh as it recharges.
Quote from: MortaneusCurrently the system can model half of the action. Drawing the knife in effectively no time is simply done at a cost of MP dice (speeding the prep).
However, if the thrower wants to immediatly flick the knife at a target, he has to wait at least a second for some MP dice to use, or he has absolutely no chance of hitting (having no dice to roll).
You could begin the first round of preparation BEFORE the extraction of the knife. IMHO it needs some time to 'recon' the area end decide where you want to throw your weapon but, especially for knife throwing, you could do at least the first round of prep before to draw.
Gianluca
Quote from: Brian LeybourneOh, I wasn't taking it as an attack, just rebutting. Devils advocate and all that :-) It would be a boring world if everyone agreed all the time. TROS has its flaws, but can stand a lot of close scrutiny.
Of course you're free to modify TROS in whatever way you see fit, you've bought the book so it's your RPG now. I just think you're wrong in this one area :-)
Brian.
One of the beauties about TROS is that it is so easy to modify or add rules if it suits your group. I don't tend to find many flaws with the system but there a definately a few "holes". I like missile fire rules but decided to make the refresh based on the average of WIT and the weapon proficincy. The better you are the quicker you find a target and a character who doesnt want to wait a second for a full refresh can fire his weapon using half his refresh dice. Pretty easy and seems to satisfy my players. I don't see why a similar system wouldn't work for modern weapons.
Aaron
Quote from: Aaron
I like missile fire rules but decided to make the refresh based on the average of WIT and the weapon proficincy.
Why not PER? I'm just curious because I'm going to start my first campaign with TROS (after studying the book two times) and I find very interesting the 'refinements' other players have thought.
Gianluca
Quote from: Ben
Guns however are a different critter all togather and as such won't work the same as the primatives. Hows about this, for any semiauto(includeing revolvers) just give the first refresh sum once it's pointed and since there is not really any prep time on moderns or advanced and the thing is already pointed, give it again for every squeeze of the trigger. For guns with recoil, assign an accumulative recoil penalty for every shot after the first. For guns with no recoil, well no penalty. For energy type weapons, you might consider a weapon refresh as it recharges.
Hmm....interesting idea there....
Perhaps you could reflect recoil this way:
In a second you fire, no more MP dice refresh unless it's the second in which you start firing, but by firing the MP you DO have aren't necessarily used up. The recoil is the number of dice you lose out of your pool per shot.
Quote from: Mortaneus
In a second you fire, no more MP dice refresh unless it's the second in which you start firing, but by firing the MP you DO have aren't necessarily used up. The recoil is the number of dice you lose out of your pool per shot.
I'm not quite following you. Maybe because it's early, or maybe because I'm all a swoon because I'm about to see the Matrix...fro free.
Anyway, could you drop me an example of what you mean?
Quote from: Ben
I'm not quite following you. Maybe because it's early, or maybe because I'm all a swoon because I'm about to see the Matrix...fro free.
Anyway, could you drop me an example of what you mean?
Matrix for free? Sheesh...I wish I were so lucky....
As an example, lets say you have a .38 Revolver. Pretty generic gun.
You have a max MP of 15. Your aim rate is 6.
Let's say the recoil on the pistol is 2 dice.
Using the earlier suggested rules, you get to refresh your aim on the second you take your first shot. That means you have 6 dice available when you whip the gun out and point it at the poor sap on the recieving end.
You fire, rolling 6 of your MP.
However, your MP doesn't immediatly empty. Instead, you lose a number of dice from it equal to the gun's recoil. Meaning, you're down to 4.
Next second, you take another shot. You don't get to refresh any more dice, because you just fired. You fire with 4 dice, and lose 2 more from the recoil, leaving you at 2 MP.
You then pause for a second, refreshing your aim (6 dice), and steadying your aim, leaving you with 8 dice now.
Next second, you fire again. Since it's after a pause, you refresh again, giving you a total of 14 dice to shoot with. You fire with 14 dice, recoil takes effect, leaving you with 12 dice after the shot.
Does that help?
Hmm, seems like we're doing the same thing different ways. I think we should slap it on the ass and call it a day. I like it.
thats the best firearms mechanism I have seen yet! Kudos!
Me like it much.
Last night one of my players was trading arrows with 9 longbow archers at 100 yards. He had a shortbow. Both he and the longbow guys fired after minimal aiming (about 4-5 dice for each party involved).
Longbow ATN: 10 Damage: 8
Shortbow ATN: 13 Damage 6
The player got a level 2 hit on the head of an enemy with a lucky shot that did a little shock and not much else. The longbow archers mostly missed (bad rolling), except for one that got a level 5 hit to his upper arm, and a level 3 to his lower abdomen. Player out of the fight after that, and nearly bled to death.
Lesson Learned 1: Don't bring a shortbow to a longbow fight!
Lesson Learned 2: Even with minimal time spent aiming, the base damage of a longbow is such that any hit can be nasty.