I realize the first issue has been discussed in a previous thread on philosophies, but being back in Germany and pondering on Stahl a bit more, I'd like to discuss Stahl atheism a bit more in-depth.
A key question I think is: Ok, the Stahl nobility was seeing the church as meddling into their affairs too deeply. BUT: If we look at medieval and renaissance Europe, the precedents look different. In most cases, the nobility in question dismissed the authority of the organized church, but kept (most of) the fundamental philosophy intact, sometimes declaring themselves supreme head of their own version of the church.
One could argue that while they disliked the influence the church had over them, they still saw religion in general as a powerful tool to influence the public without having to resort to brute force.
So, why did the Stahl nobility act differently? If there is no God, they can't be "By God's grace, King of Stahl, Duke of etc., Count of ad nauseam". On what authority do they found their leadership, other than force of arms?
Second, and related only indirectly, what is the role of cities in Stahl (and elsewhere)? In Germany, at a parallel time, cities were becoming more and more influential, which commoners achieving influence rivaling and surpassing that of nobility. In some cases, cities shook off their feudal lords, in other cases, leagues of cities defied whole nations and waged war against them. How big is the influence of the nobility? Is Stahl mimicking the development in Germany, or is it on a more traditional course? Is there an equivalent to the Hanseatic League, and if yes, what is its influence on other nations?
What are your ideas on the issue?
Methinks Stahl's power came from the temporal, and in my opinion more solid, means of feudalism, loyalty and respect.
Check this.. If you are a peasant, you probably just want to live your life, plant your fields, love your wife and take care of your babies. You don't want to worry about invaders razing your fields, raping your wife, killing your babies. So you probably have someone to turn to who'll protect you with his troopers. In turn, you give him taxes (or work his lands, however it goes). He, in turn, gives fealty to the king in exchange for assistance in protecting his lands, trade, and the sense of identity that most every man craves.
Eventually, after this arrangement has been in place for a few generations, you serve your liege because your fathers did, and they treated them well. Loyalty grows, and out of it, respect. You respect them, they respect you.
Stahl strikes me as a no-nonsense nation. The atheism is an extension of this.. They never see the gods, they rarely, if ever, see true sorcery, so why SHOULD they believe? Peasants don't bother to think about these things, often lacking inclination and education, but the nobles have time to think, and the ability to conceptualize these thoughts due to their education.
The peasantry generally still follow the religions of their fathers, and pay lip service to Stahlnish Atheism. The nobles in turn acknowledge that their subjects are good atheists, while turning a blind eye to the truth, out of a respect for their subject's beliefs.
I imagine that there are exceptions, but I feel that this is very much the rule.
Quote from: WolfenEventually, after this arrangement has been in place for a few generations, you serve your liege because your fathers did, and they treated them well. Loyalty grows, and out of it, respect. You respect them, they respect you.
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The problem here are 'Henry the Lion'-like situations, where you have to weigh one loyalty against another. When serving the guy upstairs puts the folks downstairs at danger, by forcing you to put your resources out of their reach, who do you serve? While in the real world case, such situations are stressful and messy, they would threaten the system in your case. All in all, the entire country would seem to me to be totally dependent on each other's goodwill, and as soon as one link in the chain scoffs at goodwill, the whole system comes apart.... And with the lack of a divine authority, what is to keep the guys downstairs from picking up arms and telling the guys up there to take a hike? While historically, that DID happen around the time in question, it happened within the religious system, and was shaped in part by the role of the church as a secular ruler in many places. Even then, the church was only dismissed in that role, and its clerics not dismissed for preaching, but for not living what they were preaching.
Quote
Stahl strikes me as a no-nonsense nation. The atheism is an extension of this.. They never see the gods, they rarely, if ever, see true sorcery, so why SHOULD they believe? Peasants don't bother to think about these things, often lacking inclination and education, but the nobles have time to think, and the ability to conceptualize these thoughts due to their education.
Historically, low and even mid-level nobility had to be quite busy as well keeping their affairs in order, not being able to hire enough people to do all the work for them. And as the modern world shows, having time to think and education galore doesn't preclude one from being religious. The question why SHOULD they believe can easily be countered by 'Why should they NOT believe?' If they believed all the time it was real, why suddenly believe their ancestors lived a lie?
Quote from: IrmoThe question why SHOULD they believe can easily be countered by 'Why should they NOT believe?' If they believed all the time it was real, why suddenly believe their ancestors lived a lie?
Yeah, this is a hard one to counter. One get's one's culture from one's parents. The move to Atheism requires a mass exodus of one generation away from the culture of the last generation. This is really difficult because the generations overlap. We're talking a great social upheaval.
It would make more sense to occur over time, but, IIRC, didn't Stahl become atheist overnight? In a revolution?
Worse, the peasants who have nothing to gain by throwing off the religion (they have no power to start), aren't going to like this. It would seem that the atheism is being forced upon them. See what happens when you try this be looking up the "wars of religion" in France.
Religion is a lychpin of societies where it exists, it cannot be easily replaced overnight.
Now, we do have one sorta real world example, the Bolshevik revolution. But that only lasted a generation, and already religion is prominently back on the scene in Russia and the former Soviet republics. China took a long while, and several additional revolutions (see the "cultural revolution") to accomplish this. And that's with the advantages of modern militaries and other tools that we can assume that the Stahlish nobility doesn't have.
All this said, reality is stranger than fiction. There have been odd examples of entire cultures transforming overnight (well, in societal terms in just a few years). So I'm willing to entertain that it would happen in Stahl. But I'd agree that the explanations so far need a bit of bolstering to make them coherent. We need a good BS platform for buying into this.
The cool thing, of course, about building such a platform for the idea to stand on is that it often itself then provides ideas for play.
Anyone?
Mike
I don't know as much history as I should, so I'm going avoid making comments about Stahl in relation to Germany. Now with that being said...
A lot of the differences, IMO, between the TROS setting and Europe can be linked to how different Rome and Xanarium are. The differences between Rome & Christianity on one side, and Xanarium and the Three Become One on the other, fuel most of teh significant setting rifts.
In our world, Rome rose to be an incredibly powerful empire. Near its twilight, Christianity emerged on the imperial scene. Rome fell, leaving western Europe in an intersting spot. The setting in TROS is waaaaaaaaaaay different. In year 1 AD, Rome was already a superpower. Year 1 in Wyerth, however, had no Xanarium; that empire grew up with Xanar. When he was killed in the battle with the Great Betrayer, the empire outlived him, continuing for a few more centuries to extend across Mainlund, bringing its laws and its state religion. I would love to see a mini-supplement on Wyerth's classical age, but that is neither here nor there.
Stahl was conquered by Xanarium only a few centuries ago, and assimilation never was complete. No surprise that it was one of the first to rebel against the political control of Xanarium. I would also suspect that The Three Became One never truly have become the single pervasive religion of Stahl. Culturally, Stahl is a mish mash of a lot of different things, none of which has the power to remove all other influences.
That is why, in my opinion, the Stahlnish nobles rebelled against the religion and not just the Church: all of it was seen as foriegn. Of course, I am sure some nobles still quietly pray to Xanar for guidance, but publicly, Stahlnish culture in my mind is extremely chauvenistic (sp?).
The next question, though, is why atheism? Why not paganism or Thayrism? Mainlund is a place where magic exists, where Gols murder in the mountains and Vilkolak butcher in the forests. It is a place where 1500 years ago, God and Satan blew each other up and created a new sea. The mysterious and unexplainable is much more present. And by the Rennaisance, western man has developed its ultimate saying to throw in the face of the confusion: "Surely, there is a rational explanation for this."
Because the supernatural is more present, I think the push for reason in some places of Mainlund will be stronger. Stalhnish atheism would reject the existence of divine beings or powers meddling in the affairs of the world. In its place, everything are 'natural' and unthinking forces. Powerful, frightening forces, but with no consciousness, and certainly no plan. The purpose of Man, especially Stahlnish Man to bring these forces under control. The only design the world shall have is the world Stahl imposes on it with blood and iron.
Your question is where is divine authority. Stahlnish atheism is just as much of a religion as any other, only its divine authority is not a God, but an absolute confidence in cultural superiority. Sociologists today would call it a 'civil religion,' probably. Stahl probably has a belief in destiny as well in the sense of if we do it the Stalhnish way, we win. I suspect the story of Stahl is because of the constant wranglings against Xanarium, a common cultural ideal was invented, and authority shifted to that and away from a deity. I am quite confident Stahl has just as many structures for social control as anywhere else, but with different rhetoric behind it.
I'm unsure about the role of cities, so I'm not going to speculate.
One thing I realized about the TROS setting: it only mirrors Europe for the specific time it exists. Its history is radically different (because of the Xanar stuff), and I suspect its future will also be radically different (counter-crusades, England is attached to the continent, Spain & Italy are the same place, etc.) European history is good for ideas and inspiration, but it really is on a different historical trajectory.
Cool notes, but I'm having trouble with this one:
QuoteBecause the supernatural is more present, I think the push for reason in some places of Mainlund will be stronger. Stalhnish atheism would reject the existence of divine beings or powers meddling in the affairs of the world.
That seems totally contradictory to me. Belief in supernatural things comes because we need explanations for things that we don't understand. If those supernatural things are more present, and just as unexplainable, then wouldn't that just reinforce this?
Mike
Quote from: Mike Holmes
The cool thing, of course, about building such a platform for the idea to stand on is that it often itself then provides ideas for play.
Anyone?
Mike
I'm working off the completely out of my @ss assumption that Stahlnish culture started rising a long time earlier. Yes, there were Stahlnish Tree Become One worshippers, Thahyrists, Pagans, and whatever else... But somewhere along the line, some noble had the idea of pushing The Stalhnish Way of doing things. This was done just as a temporary solution to solve some religious strife, but it probably took off. Nobles would have liked the idea of pushing their culture. I suspect that religious institutions in Stahl were getting beat up by the nobility long before the actual claim of atheism was made.
Also, keep in mind I highly doubt that Stahlnish atheism is pro reason, pro science. In my view, it would definitely have a very mystical aspect to it. The official rejection of the Church was the final straw, not the beginning. The Stahlnish spirit would have been by that time developed to the point that it was competing with the Church. As soon as that happened, the nobles all flocked to their homegrown state religion.
Ah, so the idea of Atheism existed in pre-takover Stahl in some form, and never went away totally. So it was a return to older values.
I'd buy that. As part of the explanation.
Any of that problematic, anyone?
Mike
Quote from: Mike HolmesThat seems totally contradictory to me. Belief in supernatural things comes because we need explanations for things that we don't understand. If those supernatural things are more present, and just as unexplainable, then wouldn't that just reinforce this?
Mike
Yeah... I couldda done that better. My bad.
Originally, all the magical forces of the world were separate from natural forces, according to the religion of Church 3 to 1 (And Thayrism too). They came in as divine (and infernal) beings spread across Mainlund. I think Stahlnish atheism rejects that wholesale. They are all natural forces, even if we don't understand them. The explanation comes from understanding how different forces connect, not by understanding a god's grand plan.
Quote from: Mike Holmes
Any of that problematic, anyone?
Mike
I have some problems with it, but I'm talking too much right now :)
Here's a hypothetical.
I'm a sorcerer in Stahl, and I cast a spell. How does the Stahlish aetheist respond? Do they have a change of heart? Do they claim that it's smoke and mirrors? Do they say, sure magic exists, it's just a natural force?
Mike
That is the single biggest nag for me with Stahlnish atheism. You have the two basic options though/
One answer is that the atheist's jaw hits the floor. He was taught that magic didn't exist. It obviously does. At this point, everyone gaming gets to have fun watching (or playing) someone who just had his world-view disproved. If magic is rare (at least in Stahl), then this works fine. Alternatively, if you want atheists to be a bunch of disingenuous manipulators and dupes, then this works fine.
The other answer I see is the atheist would see 'magic' as natural forces we don't understand. Unlike other religions, magic would have no link to demons or gods. Its just a natural force, like gravity or water or electricity. The Stahlnish sorceror would be all about calculation and formula. At this point, I have started the Age of Reason at the beginning of the Rennaisance in Germany. Not sure how I feel about that...
Personally, I prefer my setting for TROS to be magic-lite. If it is common in a setting, I would go with the second choice, even though it narrows Stahlnish atheism down to "no god, no design," which I suppose is enough if the campaign ends up involving other characters with strong beliefs.
Quote from: Nick Pagnucco
Stahl was conquered by Xanarium only a few centuries ago, and assimilation never was complete. No surprise that it was one of the first to rebel against the political control of Xanarium. I would also suspect that The Three Became One never truly have become the single pervasive religion of Stahl. Culturally, Stahl is a mish mash of a lot of different things, none of which has the power to remove all other influences.
That is why, in my opinion, the Stahlnish nobles rebelled against the religion and not just the Church: all of it was seen as foriegn. Of course, I am sure some nobles still quietly pray to Xanar for guidance, but publicly, Stahlnish culture in my mind is extremely chauvenistic (sp?).
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There is a problem with that argument. You present it as a chief difference between Weyrth and our world. In fact, it isn't that different at all. While Rome covered a great deal of the then-known world, only a tiny part of Germany was part of the empire. While that included important cities (one of which even was capital of the empire for a tiny period), Roman influence east of the Rhine was through cultural exchange and trade, mostly, throughout the Christian period. Only a tiny wedge, secured by a wall, of southwest Germany east of the Rhine was part of the empire. Most of the Christianization of Germany happened during and after the decline of the western Empire. The King of Franks, Chlodwig, was only baptized in 498/499 due to the influence of his already christian wife, a Burgundian princess. Allegedly, 3000 of his men followed his example and hit off the wave of christianization, but until it was really a major factor, quite some time would still have to pass. By the 6th and 7th century, the Franks on the Rhine had become christianized pretty much entirely (though that area had Roman tradition), and it was slowly spreading eastward. Bavaria and Franconia followed in the 8th century, and Alemannia was sometime in between. On the other hand, Frisians and Saxons withstood any attempt at converting them for quite a while, and life as a missionary was dangerous (e.g. the irish bishop Kilian died a marthyr's death in Franconia in 689).
None of which prevented German overlords from stepping into the footsteps of the emperors of Rome and declaring themselves the secular protectors and representatives of christianity.
Hello all,
I've been lurking here awhile and I'm glad to see a post on the setting rather than the rules. While I love the rules, I think the setting of TROS has a lot of promise and still needs a lot of development. These are the types of discussions I enjoy most.
Maybe the missing piece in Stahlish atheism is universities. Stahlisn universities could have very easily developed as a result of maratime trade, hense specializations in law, and because it was under the dominion of the Church for so long universities for theology could have started as well. Now within a university of theology, perhaps one intellectual starting asking those theological questions that so bugger monotheitic religions (i.e. If the Three are all-powerful, all knowing, and all merciful, why is there evil in the world?) This intellectual's answer could have been, 'Because the Three are a human made myth. They represent nothing but humanity writ large.' Off course, such a view would have gotten this intellectual kicked out of the university, but that doesn't mean that another noble, or nobles, wouldn't have personally agreed with him/her and sponsored became a patron of the intellectual. Years pass, books are made, ideas start to circulate. There is an undercurrent of doubt within Stahlish society, some nobles still believe in the Three, others pay lip service to the Three, others are not religious at all. Then the breaking point happens when the king decides he's had enough of the Church, using atheism as his justification, he throws the Church out of Stahl and takes over all Church land, or at least as much as he can get his hands on. Surprised by this move, and sense the king isn't all-powerful in Stahl, the nobles follow his lead not to be out done in the 'land-grab'. Whether they truely believe in atheism or not, they don't want the other nobles and the king to seize more land, and therefore become more powerful than them. Of course, the peasants at the bottom rung care nothing for this land grab and feel no need to take up an atheism that was never very well explained to them. All they know is that when a noble is around it is better for them and their families to say that the Three do not exist, otherwise they are kicked off their land. Of course, the Stalish aristocracy knows this, but that last thing they want is a massive religiously lead rebellion with the characteristics of a crusade on their hand. So they in reality very seldom throw peasants out of their lands (besides, they need the labor) and let the peasants believe what they will, as long as it doesn't threaten their position of social superiority.
Hense, the current status of religiousity in Stahl is shaky. Some nobles believe firmly in atheism, others pay lip service to it, but the mass of people below them still believe what they will (The Three, paganism, etc.). Now, if the Church could get a sneaky preacher into the Stalhish countryside to preach a crusade against the heathen athiests, they might be able to spark of a rebellion and put into power people who not only would allow the Church back into Stalh, but would be a valuabe ally against Gelure.
hiya...
I'm not completely sure what you are saying the problem in my argument is. The history you lay out for Christianity in Germany is much more detailed than anything I could do, I agree. However, the history you just described of Germany highlights the differences between Germany and Stahl. I think the single key issue you mentioned was the fact that the Roman Empire and Christianity were not the same thing. In Wyerth, Xanarium and the Church are EXACTLY the same thing (until only recently). In 773, Stahl became a vassal-state of Xanarium through political and religious actions, after an earlier, simply military conquest failed.
We don't have much information in the book to go on, but because we know what Stahl ends up like (independent & w/ Stahlnish atheism), I'm adding the information that this may have won over the political elite in Stahl at that time, but I doubt Xanar's Church became the pervasive religion, ever.
This is very different than the history of Germany you just described. Germany never became as a whole part of Rome (through conquest, alliance, or whatever). Likewise, The attempted move of Rome into Germany, and the attempted Christianization of Germany were different events. Third, The Christianization of Germany, by your dates, was established (if not complete) in the 8th century... the same time roughly the Church of Xanar BEGAN making its headways into Stahl. In essence, Stahl and Germany are mirror opposites: one was politically but not culturally assimilated. The other was culturally but not politically.
I hope I didn't misquote or misunderstand. What was the problem with my argument you saw? If I'm misunderstanding German history, I apologize. The point is I'm trying to look at the difference in their histories to understand the difference in results, which I think is the same task we're all doing in this thread.
Quote from: A.J.Hello all,
I've been lurking here awhile and I'm glad to see a post on the setting rather than the rules. While I love the rules, I think the setting of TROS has a lot of promise and still needs a lot of development. These are the types of discussions I enjoy most.
Me too. I can't crunch numbers to save my life. :)
Quote from: A.J.
Maybe the missing piece in Stahlish atheism is universities. Stahlisn universities could have very easily developed as a result of maratime trade, hense specializations in law, and because it was under the dominion of the Church for so long universities for theology could have started as well. Now within a university of theology, perhaps one intellectual starting asking those theological questions that so bugger monotheitic religions (i.e. If the Three are all-powerful, all knowing, and all merciful, why is there evil in the world?)
<snip>
Hense, the current status of religiousity in Stahl is shaky. Some nobles believe firmly in atheism, others pay lip service to it, but the mass of people below them still believe what they will (The Three, paganism, etc.). Now, if the Church could get a sneaky preacher into the Stalhish countryside to preach a crusade against the heathen athiests, they might be able to spark of a rebellion and put into power people who not only would allow the Church back into Stalh, but would be a valuabe ally against Gelure.
I definitely agree cities and universities would probably play an important role, I'm just not exactly sure where they'd fit in. :)
I agree with your end picture of what the religious landscape of Stahl looks like now, though.
Hey all. I'm back from a trip to Texas to train with John Clements, etc.
I just wanted to say that this is my favorite kind of thread around here. I'm very happy.
Jake
I hope you had fun training :)
Do you have any opinions or specific things that catch you with Stahl / Atheism?
(Edited for grammr 'n spellin')
*grumbles something about Jake only going to Texas once poor Irmo set sails back to Sta.. errrr Germany....*
I'd still like to talk a bit about cities, both in Stahl and elsewhere. In the real world, they were a major factor in the development of society, both in giving rise to powerful commoners, independent of the nobility, and by giving rise to scholarship outside monasteries. As such, I think the issue of cities and the power of the commoner population is a factor that needs to be considered also for the atheism by nobility fiat issue, but also in general for a better feeling on how the societies in Weyrth are set up.
Quote from: IrmoI'd still like to talk a bit about cities, both in Stahl and elsewhere. In the real world, they were a major factor in the development of society, both in giving rise to powerful commoners, independent of the nobility, and by giving rise to scholarship outside monasteries. As such, I think the issue of cities and the power of the commoner population is a factor that needs to be considered also for the atheism by nobility fiat issue, but also in general for a better feeling on how the societies in Weyrth are set up.
Sounds reasonable, which of course means I want you to talk more :)
Historically, I only have a very basic understanding about the role of cities as centers of trade & learning. I don't have a good grasp of details at all. You obviously know German history, so use that to make some Wyerth specific details. Propose a historical narrative so people here can pick at it and see if anything pops off. I tried answering questions like these based on looking at the the effects of Xanarium as an imperial power (must...read... post colonial theory...). I tried my best to defend it so I could see what worked and what didn't.
So, where did the Stahlish cities come from? trade? outposts of Xanarium or another empire? Was learning originally linked to theology, or something else? How did this develop over time? So, have a go at it: using the setting's details, give the story of "religion and universities in Stahl." Pretend you're writing an abstract of a history book :)
Good news for me: I'm taking a historical-Comparative methods course ("Why did that country develop/industrialize/democratize this way and that country that way?") in my program at the fall, so by December I should be much better at BS'ing this stuff :)
Quote from: Nick Pagnucco
Sounds reasonable, which of course means I want you to talk more :)
Historically, I only have a very basic understanding about the role of cities as centers of trade & learning. I don't have a good grasp of details at all. You obviously know German history, so use that to make some Wyerth specific details. Propose a historical narrative so people here can pick at it and see if anything pops off. I tried answering questions like these based on looking at the the effects of Xanarium as an imperial power (must...read... post colonial theory...). I tried my best to defend it so I could see what worked and what didn't.
So, where did the Stahlish cities come from? trade? outposts of Xanarium or another empire? Was learning originally linked to theology, or something else? How did this develop over time? So, have a go at it: using the setting's details, give the story of "religion and universities in Stahl." Pretend you're writing an abstract of a history book :)
Good news for me: I'm taking a historical-Comparative methods course ("Why did that country develop/industrialize/democratize this way and that country that way?") in my program at the fall, so by December I should be much better at BS'ing this stuff :)
Well, one of my problems is that there is currently this thing called Atlantic Ocean between me and my copy of TROS. Hopefully, I will be able to have it shipped over in July, once I started in a new job here...
One reason why I am interested in this issue is that it will heavily figure into not just descriptions of Stahl, but other nations as well, since it makes a difference whether there is such a thing similar to the Hanseatic League having dependencies in other countries. It would mean a great deal more international trade and probably cultural exchange than otherwise. I'll see if I can dig up some books or websites on the rise of cities but it will be difficult to draw parallels to Weyrth without having my book here...
On the topic of cities, what sort of things do you want to discuss? Their political structure? As if they were run by officals appointed by the local noble or if they were run by the guild masters of the city? I think if you want to limit your discussion to 'cities', meaning large urban centers, one might have to first discuss economics since large cities are almost always the result of economic factors. What products do the cities produce? (clothing, weapons and armor, etc?)
A major factor of city growth in the Middle Ages was the granting of town charters which gave the burgesses freedoms they would not have had if they were in the countryside, such as some degree of self-government. The reason nobles granted these charters was because they could earn a good chunk of money taxing a city's trade. Perhaps that's the first thing we have to decide about Stahlish cities, was the aristocracy willing to give up a degree of control over cities so that they could make money from them?
Are those the sort of issues you wish to discuss Irmo?
Quote from: A.J.On the topic of cities, what sort of things do you want to discuss? Their political structure? As if they were run by officals appointed by the local noble or if they were run by the guild masters of the city? I think if you want to limit your discussion to 'cities', meaning large urban centers, one might have to first discuss economics since large cities are almost always the result of economic factors. What products do the cities produce? (clothing, weapons and armor, etc?)
A major factor of city growth in the Middle Ages was the granting of town charters which gave the burgesses freedoms they would not have had if they were in the countryside, such as some degree of self-government. The reason nobles granted these charters was because they could earn a good chunk of money taxing a city's trade. Perhaps that's the first thing we have to decide about Stahlish cities, was the aristocracy willing to give up a degree of control over cities so that they could make money from them?
Are those the sort of issues you wish to discuss Irmo?
In part, yes. There were also the free cities within the Empire, which were subject solely to the Emperor himself, not to any local noble. That in part also led to some people fleeing the local countryside for the city trying to escape serfdom ("Stadtluft macht frei" 'City air makes (you) free'). Though they soon had to realise there were other dependencies in the cities, such as guilds etc., and they were free only if their master had not found them and demanded them back from the city's lord for a year and a day in some sources.
The heydey of 'citification' in Germany was between 1220 and 1350, though the wave had started already in the 12th century. Earlier cities had largely Roman origin (Cologne, Trier, Mainz, Worms, Augsburg, Passau, Regensburg...)
During the primetime of German cities, about 25% of the population lived in cities. Though of course, the scale of cities was much smaller then, with cities beyond 10,000 inhabitants being pretty rare -the vast majority had less than 2000. Still there were cities like Cologne with 50,000, Magdeburg with 30,000, Luebeck with 25,000 and a bunch of others with 10-20,000. And of course there were cities like Paris with 100,000, or later over 280,000, or Milan with 85,000
So we might need to keep two other factors in mind: Age of city-style settlements in a region (tribal societies often shun settlements of that scale), and centralization. A decentralized style of governing allows for a bunch of significant, but not huge cities to develop, while a centralized government can lead to the development of a huge metropolis.
Quote from: IrmoSo we might need to keep two other factors in mind: Age of city-style settlements in a region (tribal societies often shun settlements of that scale), and centralization. A decentralized style of governing allows for a bunch of significant, but not huge cities to develop, while a centralized government can lead to the development of a huge metropolis.
Well, as Stahl is described as hopelessly decentralized, I think we can safely say that there will be a lot of smaller cities.
As for the age of the cities... I'm not as sure about that. More specifically, I don't think the pre-existing setting information guides us in a certain direction.
On the subject of something like the hanseatic league, I think it is a good idea, but a lot of things need to be considered. Primarily, the coastline of Mainlund is RADICALLY different to that of Europe. Stahl is a huge blob that just keeps going north and east. Savaxen is an island due west of Stahl. Angharad (sp?, the Welsh-type place) and Ferrenshire are both attached to the mainland (Stahl specifically), but not each other. Picti is an island just south of Savaxen. I don't know what the ramifications of all of that are, but I'm sure they exist.
Also add to the mix that Portugal doesn't exist, and that the equivalent of Spain & Italy (Xanarium) is the source of conservative, traditional behavior, and I feel safe saying that sea-trading in general is going to be very, very different than anything in Europe.
I agree with you Nick, sea trade is going to be much different, and while the Holy Roman Emperor might have wanted the backing of the cities, it doesn't seem like the High King of Stahl has been interested in trying to unify the country. In addition, the book says that Stahl is pretty much self-sufficient. I read this as meaning that far distance trade is quite limited. I see Stahl as having a few large towns where their steel making and weapons and armor production goes on, but other than that a land with a lot of villages. I think someone from Xanarium or Helana would see Stahl as a 'barbaric' country that is good only for its weapons and horses. As such, I think the role of cities would be slight as compared to the Hanastic league. Why would the High King want to promote them when there really isn't much money to be had from them? It would just upset the nobles who own the land around and maybe in the city. The High King probably wouldn't want those headaches!
The only real drive I see to giving freedoms to towns would be to promote weapon smiths into taking up residence in a particular town. That would be a lucrative trade for a noble to get their taxation powers on.
2 thoughts...
#1
I forgot the thing about being self-sufficient. This definitely sounds a bit different than a nation with strong trading.
With that being said, though, I suspect that specific parts of Stahl would be exceptions. Looking at the map, Stahl is rather large. I would imagine certain regions (parts of the southern coast, and the Mayyarfold area) are in strategic enough places that trade must go through them. However, those areas would be very different than most of Stahl. How this rift between higher and lower trade areas of Stahl plays out is anyone's guess... but I am SURE economics, politics, and Stahlnish atheism all get intertwined.
#2
This thread, IMHO, is important primarily because of the insights it can give into characters. TROS is, in my view, a game that focuses a lot of time and energy on the motivations of characters. Developing the setting, then, allows people to give their characters more by giving them an idea on what it means to be Stahlnish. How do people actually practice Stahlnish atheism? How would they react to a sorcerer or a Gol? Is Stahl a genereally cosmopolitan place, or orthodox? (either way, I'm sure it is quite snobbish) Setting information can help answer these questions, or possibly raise other interesting ones for players/characters to ponder. I'm doing a poor job of integrating this comment into the pre-existing thread, but I think this is an important point to keep in mind while we discuss Stahl's culture and religion.
Quote from: Nick Pagnucco
On the subject of something like the hanseatic league, I think it is a good idea, but a lot of things need to be considered. Primarily, the coastline of Mainlund is RADICALLY different to that of Europe. Stahl is a huge blob that just keeps going north and east. Savaxen is an island due west of Stahl. Angharad (sp?, the Welsh-type place) and Ferrenshire are both attached to the mainland (Stahl specifically), but not each other. Picti is an island just south of Savaxen. I don't know what the ramifications of all of that are, but I'm sure they exist.
Can anyone give a poor guy whose book is in a box on a different continent some brief description of what Savaxen looks like? Scandinavia was an important market of the Hanseatic league, and a lot would depend on a reasonable infrastructure...
At the same time:
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Also add to the mix that Portugal doesn't exist, and that the equivalent of Spain & Italy (Xanarium) is the source of conservative, traditional behavior, and I feel safe saying that sea-trading in general is going to be very, very different than anything in Europe.
While the Hanseatic league today is most famous for its sea trade, it needs to be kept in mind that numerous landlocked towns were part of it, and it extended far south into the middle of today's Germany.
Quote from: Nick Pagnucco
This thread, IMHO, is important primarily because of the insights it can give into characters. TROS is, in my view, a game that focuses a lot of time and energy on the motivations of characters. Developing the setting, then, allows people to give their characters more by giving them an idea on what it means to be Stahlnish. How do people actually practice Stahlnish atheism? How would they react to a sorcerer or a Gol? Is Stahl a genereally cosmopolitan place, or orthodox? (either way, I'm sure it is quite snobbish) Setting information can help answer these questions, or possibly raise other interesting ones for players/characters to ponder. I'm doing a poor job of integrating this comment into the pre-existing thread, but I think this is an important point to keep in mind while we discuss Stahl's culture and religion.
That, is of course the central point of this thread and its good that you keep us on track Nick!
I would aslo agree with you that some parts of Stahl would have greater outside trade then others. In fact, there's a city on the map in western Stahl, Forekill, that is nicely located close to a tributary or the river that runs south into Cyrinthmeir. I would place the more well developed towns on that river, with Forefill at the end of the merchant river route. I think in my campaign, when I get around to running it, Forekill will be the center of weapons and armor production that Stahl is so famous for. This developed because Forekill looks to be in a mountainous region (good for minning metals) and is close to a river so it is easy to transport the finished goods into Cyrinthmeir.
In my opinion, since the towns that have probably developed on this river more often have information and opinions of the outside world, specifically Cyritnmeir, these towns would be centers of firm belief in the Three-Becomes-One, since that faith is so strong in Cyrinthmeir. Moreover, these towns might be the first places where the Imperial Church would be welcomed back in. Peasants in other places in Stahl might still be Three-Becomes-One believers, but they might not be supporters of the Church, since they have had years to hear horror stories, told by the aristocracy of course, of what the Church really wants from people (i.e.their land, money, and children), and cares nothing for their souls.
Quote from: IrmoCan anyone give a poor guy whose book is in a box on a different continent some brief description of what Savaxen looks like? Scandinavia was an important market of the Hanseatic league, and a lot would depend on a reasonable infrastructure...
ok... Geographically, imagine a rectangle. The entire eastern edge of this rectangle is the Stahlnish coastline. In the southeastern corner of the rectangle, there is a penninsula sticking out to the west. This is Angharad (described in the book as a Welsh-like Celctic culture). In the southwestern corner of the rectangle, there is the island of Picti (Pict / Scottish / Pict from Pendragon RPG culture). The remainder of the rectangle (North, Northwestern corner, and due west) contain several islands (2 large, 5 small). That set of islands is Savaxen. South of the box is Gelure & Farrenshire.
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While the Hanseatic league today is most famous for its sea trade, it needs to be kept in mind that numerous landlocked towns were part of it, and it extended far south into the middle of today's Germany.
ok, so... what is the key thing about the Hanseatic league, as far as a TROS-equivalent goes? The idea of a network of cities politically allied due to commerce? Something different or more detailed than that?
Quote from: Nick Pagnucco
ok... Geographically, imagine a rectangle. The entire eastern edge of this rectangle is the Stahlnish coastline. In the southeastern corner of the rectangle, there is a penninsula sticking out to the west. This is Angharad (described in the book as a Welsh-like Celctic culture). In the southwestern corner of the rectangle, there is the island of Picti (Pict / Scottish / Pict from Pendragon RPG culture). The remainder of the rectangle (North, Northwestern corner, and due west) contain several islands (2 large, 5 small). That set of islands is Savaxen. South of the box is Gelure & Farrenshire.
*g* Sorry, misunderstanding here....the geographical layout I can get from the map on the website...I was more interested in what it looks like culturally. Specifically, what is the level of organization? Are we talking about losely allied viking raiders or a Denmark, Norway or Sweden style kingdom?
Quote
ok, so... what is the key thing about the Hanseatic league, as far as a TROS-equivalent goes? The idea of a network of cities politically allied due to commerce? Something different or more detailed than that?
Sort of, yes. The Hanseatic League originally started out as an alliance of merchants, but given how much these merchants contributed to the wealth of their cities, the cities took an early interest in promoting the interests of these merchants. Originally, there were several smaller, more local or regional groups of merchants (such as the Cologne 'Englandfahrer' which had a permanent representation in England as early as 1130) which then, via the intermediary step of bilateral treaties between individual cities, merged to a set of city alliances, which then again merged to the hanseatic league in its final form.
The Hanseatic league had regular meetings, in which treaties were ratified, trade privileges granted, financial or military measures passed, delegates sent out, new members accepted, or members cast out, conflicts between members arbitrated etc... However, in contrast to regional meetings, which usually happened several times a year, these major meetings happened very rarely, for logistic and financial reasons.
Due to the trade volume of the Hanse, foreign lords frequently granted privileges such as special standing of Hanseatic merchants, safety from arbitrary arrest and from a bunch of other laws which could lead to them being stripped of their goods, protection of goods, fixed tarriffs, and the right to regulate specific trade sectors.
So,
if there is to be a parallel in Stahl, it could be anywhere in the range described, whether we're talking about local, regional or national levels, e.g. there could be one league in the southeast, regulating trade with Cyrinthmeir, Zaporozhya and Sarmatov, and one in the west regulating trade with Angarhad, the islands, Farrenshire, Ouestenreich and possibly Gelure and possibly the profitable but risky far trade with Xanar -and of course intra-Stahl trade in their area... at the line of contact there could be constant vying for control, as cities switch allegiances for promises of privileges.... just as one wild idea...
I think the only opportunity for an Hanseatic League in Stahl would be in the southeast. I sort of doubt trade would be vibrant enough in the southwest to create the sort of wealth that merchants need to develop into political powers. After all, from the description in the book, Saxaven is probably a sparsly populated island with it's greatest income being raiding, not the sort of place with a high volume of trade. In addition, the Saxavens raiders would be sea-trade too risky in the 'Sea of Raiders' to even warrent investing capital in the overseas trade with Farrenshire, Gelure, or the Empire. While there might be a few wealthy merchants in southwest Stahl, a league of them seems unlikely.
Of course, that's just the way I'm interpreting the material!
Quote from: A.J.I think the only opportunity for an Hanseatic League in Stahl would be in the southeast. I sort of doubt trade would be vibrant enough in the southwest to create the sort of wealth that merchants need to develop into political powers. After all, from the description in the book, Saxaven is probably a sparsly populated island with it's greatest income being raiding, not the sort of place with a high volume of trade. In addition, the Saxavens raiders would be sea-trade too risky in the 'Sea of Raiders' to even warrent investing capital in the overseas trade with Farrenshire, Gelure, or the Empire. While there might be a few wealthy merchants in southwest Stahl, a league of them seems unlikely.
Of course, that's just the way I'm interpreting the material!
On the other hand, curbing piracy or at least keeping commerce going in spite of it might be precisely a reason for merchants to band together. The Hanseatic league established fleets and in the end took out the raiders under Klaus Stortebecker and Godeke Michels, after a struggle of 15 years. Of course, it would be one idea to have a campaign to that end, with a fleet assembled by stahlnish merchants opening sea lanes in the 'Sea of Raiders', establishing fortified trade posts in Savaxen and Picti and eventually either forcing the locals to organize into structured realms, or economically colonizing them.
In that case you'd want them between Savaxen and Picti/Angharad, where they have to deal with the threat of piracy all the time, but aren't so close that there's a technology/civilazation overlap.
Jake
Quote from: Irmo*g* Sorry, misunderstanding here....the geographical layout I can get from the map on the website...I was more interested in what it looks like culturally. Specifically, what is the level of organization? Are we talking about losely allied viking raiders or a Denmark, Norway or Sweden style kingdom?
Sorry... IIRC, loosely allied raiders / traders. Technically, they have allegiance to the King of Stahl, but not in practice (formal separation seems inevitable)
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So, if there is to be a parallel in Stahl, it could be anywhere in the range described, whether we're talking about local, regional or national levels, e.g. there could be one league in the southeast, regulating trade with Cyrinthmeir, Zaporozhya and Sarmatov, and one in the west regulating trade with Angarhad, the islands, Farrenshire, Ouestenreich and possibly Gelure and possibly the profitable but risky far trade with Xanar -and of course intra-Stahl trade in their area... at the line of contact there could be constant vying for control, as cities switch allegiances for promises of privileges.... just as one wild idea...
Sounds good... I especially like the notion of trade over land. The book mentions that foriegn powers often set up mines in iron-rich Fahal, which they try to mine as long as possible before the people of that nation kick them out. That sounds like a perfect enterprise for a trade league to get into. That inland sea between Cyrinthmeir, Fahal, Exliaph and a few others is an interesting place... a lot of potential is there for explorers & entrepreneurs.