We're starting preliminary work on TFOB right now. Here's your chance to give a single post wish list of the things you do and don't want to see there, and why.
You can add additional items later, but you cannot comment on the wishlists of others.
Quote from: Jake NorwoodWe're starting preliminary work on TFOB right now. Here's your chance to give a single post wish list of the things you do and don't want to see there, and why.
You can add additional items later, but you cannot comment on the wishlists of others.
I'd like to see the real effects of the Tactics, Strategy and Leadership skills. I'm sure you've probably already got this on the list. I ask because my character is basically a former officer who's greatest strength is leading people in battle (well, that and Machiavellian politics, natch), and I'm not sure what those skills actually do. I'd love to have more details, especially for Strategy and Tactics.
hmmm
Mass Combat rules for marching armies and sieges, that ideally account for PC presence in some fashion (something along the lines of Pendragon)
Skirmish level resolution for your 7 PCs and the 50 villagers they are aiding agains the bandits.
A discussion on how to apply / alter the existing combat rules if you're a guy in the front line of a pole axe armed regiment rather than a 1 on 1 duel.
A chapter summarizing what you've learned about real fighting from the various manuals and how different manuals had different focii. Games from Flashing Blades to 7th Sea have attempted to include the idea of "sword schools" I suspect, those applications aren't very close to reality. What would REALLY distinguish 1 school from a rival across town in TROS terms besides the color of their tabards and name of their master? Could there be school specific modifiers...like 1 school gets +3 dice to attack from an aggressive stance but only +1 to defend from a defensive stance due to the aggressive teachings of the master? 1 school that focuses heavily on counters gets to modify the random counter roll. 1 school has an activation cost for counters of 3 instead of 2, but gets 2 bonus dice on Full Evade?...that sort of thing...if it would be historical to invent such things.
A glossary of actual moves (like all of those German words you throw around) and what the move would look like in TROS terms. i.e. "A powerful strike to area IV using at least half of the CP pool and employing the 1 die to increase damage by 1 rule." Notes on when such a move is a good idea (what its used for) in reality, and when its effective in TROS terms. This may include some advanced Stances. Stance X is an aggressive stance that takes 2 Insight to learn from an appropriate school and gives +3 dice to red die cuts, but only +1 dice to red die beats, or binds...again if it would historical to map these out. Clearly an "advanced" cool factor.
A description of what moves follow what moves well and what do not, possibly with penalty dice for launching a strike against an area following a strike against another area, when in reality such a move would be extremely difficult (but currently makes no difference). Perhaps also some rules for discouraging attacks to the same area...something like sacrificing dice from the CP for guarenteed defense successes on a specific area...representing a combatant knowingly protecting his vulnerable legs.
Emphasize Europe. Save the Asian stuff for a Riddle of Jade supplement.
Oh, and obviously rules for traps and poison...duh ;-)
Info on breakage of weapons and shields. An option for a disarm attempt (if this isn't realistic for some reason, though, and the current way with counters is the most realistic solution, though, I understand). Some thoughts on how weapons can be tailored specifically for a specific person and the benefits a custom weapon might provide, as well as the increased costs of obtaining such a weapon. Same roughly for armor.
I'm pretty ignorant regarding real swordsmanship though, so if these ideas don't fit the TROS model I understand. :)
possible more accurate rules for people running a more fantasy variety TROS, that answers things like:
how do you go about having 6 guys fight 1 large creature... stuff like that...
then again, maybe thats in OBAM
A list of counters with historical names or close to it. Things like "against oberhau's one can execute the Hangen counter- slash to zone 4 or the pressing the hands counter -slash to zone 3 automatically lower arms"
You could use more art straight from manuals like talhoffer for examples. Should be public domain.
Basically more and more detailed maneuvers would be great as would corrected stats and rules for armor.
I know most people are tired of charts.... but I would love to see more counters, not just for the heavier weapons, but also for rapiers. I don't mean just names and descriptions for counters, but also usable counters that don't result in a neligible damage.
Dueling protocols for different nations.
Also mass combat/ skirmish rules would be nice.
Chris' wish-list:
Abstraction is our friend:
One on one combat in TROS is somewhat abstracted with the Combat Pool. Don't reinvent the wheel. If you can find some way to utilize this mechanic on a larger scale, I will be a happy, happy man.
Armies are made of people! PEOPLE!:
As mentioned before, take into account fun stuff like morale(in general), and leadership in the sense of picking competant underlings, etc. I've worked for almost 2 years in human resources...it makes all the difference.
"Fighting is part of the game, but not the WHOLE game"...
One on one fights don't eat up the whole session. Please don't let mass combats do so either, otherwise I might as well grab Warhammer. One viable option might be to scale the nature of mass combat, so that a single roll might determine the fate of a single squad in a skirmish, a single manuever in a battle, a whole battle, a week of manuevering and fighting, or a whole campaign. Trollbabe and Hero Quest both do this, so you might want to look there.
Chris
Will post more later, but...
New wrestling rules!
yrs--
--Ben
Also, there is this old thread, possibly among many.
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=2204&highlight=
Just to give people ideas of more to ask for.
yrs--
--Ben
Quote from: Ben LehmanWill post more later, but...
New wrestling rules!
yrs--
--Ben
Clarification:
What about the wrestling rules do you want to see changed?
Quote from: Jake Norwood
What about the wrestling rules do you want to see changed?
BL> There is presently no way that a 130 pounder can outwrestle a 250 pounder in RoS rules.
This is not true. I see this violated all the time.
Weight gives you an advantage in wrestling, but the advantage it gives you is not so dominant.
What I would really like is to see wrestling written up like the duelling system, with specialized maneuvers (choke, lock, submission hold, etc.) and everything...
yrs--
--Ben
I know I would like to see a detail description of weapons and especially armor. I had the hardest time trying to explain what pieces of armor cover what parts of the body/zones. I'd also like to see a greater variety of armor.
Quote from: MonkeyWrenchI know I would like to see a detail description of weapons and especially armor. I had the hardest time trying to explain what pieces of armor cover what parts of the body/zones. I'd also like to see a greater variety of armor.
YES, i second and third this one... more pictures... i dont care if they are just an appendix... but an accurate picture of what Jake plans on having for each weapon, and armor, would be a great benefit..
i can go looking for pictures all i want, but they might not be what jake had in mind... ya know?
I'd like to see
a)more variants on the counter maneuver. Defending yourself in such a fashion that you can immediately bring in a counterattack is, after all, a basic stake.
b)Perhaps a bit more sophistication on the unsophisticated act of bringing a solid object between yourself and the attack, i.e. shield use.
More info on making weapons and armour of different quality. How the values and prices are affected, and how long it takes to make them. That kind of stuff.
And as have been said, descriptive and simple pictures all over the place, like those used for encumberance.
I also agree on the wrestling rules. First of all, I don't want to keep track of any lousy NPC's weight. Better wrestling rules would be a great, since being able to wrestle down the warrior PC can make a group of lowly NPC's dangerous again.
Improve missile weapon rules. The ability to loose an arrow quickly and still be dangerous.
To me, the connection better aiming = larger chance to penetrate armour doesn't make sense. A broad-headed arrow from a short bow shouln't be able to penetrate the plate no matter how well aimed it is.
EDIT: Ooh, and some info and help about simultaneous attacks. You know, does a beat disable a simoultaneous attack or not? That kind of things.
Oh, and I suppose more info about horses and their role in battle is in OBAM, so I won't mention that.
Like Valamir, I would like to see detailed rules formass combat as well.
Adding to his list:
I would wish for treatments of different battle tactics:
+ like basic set up of your army:
- in a shield-wall (if that's the english term) best described in Bernard Cornwalls trilogy of king arthur
- to break a shield wall
- with hidden troups to get out at the flanks
- with chivalry
- in a wedge formation to break through
- to follow retreats in order to finnish them...
- ...and get caught in an ambush
[/list:u]
+ in-battle maneuvers
- how to break through to the head of the other army
- and what happens when you actually kill him (and who get's the fame for the kill)
- details for the actual characters in the battle, how many they killed, which wounds they got
- what berserking means in a battle
- is it there enough space to use this weapon, do that maneuver (this should change during battles)
[/list:u]
+ detailed role of terrain
- how to treat places "which can be hold by few men against an army"
- maneuver your army for a better terrain before the actual battle emerges
[/list:u]
+ battle logistics
- marching armies long distances
- how to get enough medical treatment for the survivors
[/list:u]
+ with different battle machines like
- charriots
- siege weapons
- movable cover for archers
[/list:u]
[/list:u]
That should be enough for now. And I am sure, you do not need extra rules for each
possibility I mentioned: Stick to the great abstraction mechanisms that made TROS
so easy to use, like Bankuei said.
Hopefully for the future of TFOB,
Bernd
I would like some info on the economics and supplying and maintaining armed forces. For example,
(1) What are the incomes of different levels of Nobility...a general range.
(2) What does it cost to hire different troop types both longterm (household troops) and short term (mercenaries).
(3) How much food and water are required. How do you get it.
A 'typical army' from several different countries might also add some flavor...NT
here's mine-
I'm on the wrestling band wagon, too. they need fixing.
Modifiers for wrestling in armor that go beyond the CP penalty of the armor. Certain wrestling manuvers just dont work on a guy in plate. Likwise, other manuvors can't be performed at all if you're wearing armor.
Rules for wrestling more than one person. Ex. ten villagers are pulling a knight off horseback during a revolt.
Enchanted weapons and armor. Ex. Game mechanics for Excalibur's scabbard stopping Blood Loss.
Artifact level items. Id like to see mechanics for things like the Black Cauldren.
mass combat rules for non-human combatants. What are the Ghol like in wars and sieges? or worse yet, the Hef. What can an army do against an angry dragon? More fantasy-esq options, like sorcerers on the battlefield (or more likely, overlooking it.), squads of griffon riders. Stuff like that.
More in depth skill rules. Tactics, battle and style analyisis rules for mass combat. Poison rules. Rules for True Leadership in mass combat.
And finally, of course- All the ups and downs of mass combat itself. (like it needs to be said.) I'm particularly intrested in running a battle sim of a mongolian-esq hord lead by a very powerful Khan vs. a roman style legion led by someone like Maximus.
I think I would like to see a few more examples of armour, and weapons. Perhaps expand upon the crossbows/bows and the relevant arrow heads? I don't want to see a massive codex, just a few more examples with which we can run. Maybe add a little side bar on the effectiveness of certain classes of weapons against certain classes of armour?
Also, how about some of the things that drove the finance of battle? Ransom! Looting! Pay!
Also, what about a quick essay on logistics? Not much more than a page or two would cover it, I think.
From what I have seen and heard on the Armour thread how about a reworking of the CP Penalties for wearing Armour? This way, those who like the way they are have got values from the original book and we can have some new ones for those who feel the CP Penbalties may be a bit stiff as they are...
The Long List:
Revised Wrestling Rules
Revised armor rules
In-depth counter rules, with information from manuals
Rules for disarms?
The best mass combat system in the world
Guidelines for the following proficiencies: Two small weapons, whip, spear and shield.
More advanced look into missile weapon proficiences -- particularly what alternates to what (thrown knives and thrown axes, say, or thrown knives and the Dagger proficiency.)
Rules for being highly skill in more than one Proficiency without being totally screwed on advancement.
Alternates for wrestling and lance.
Rules for arming gloves / parrying sleeves
Articles about strategy -- high toughness vs. low toughness, multiple opponents, large creatures, etc.
Any of these need additional explanation?
I wouldn't mind rules for a mass weapon and sword combo. I'm not sure how historically accurate it is, but you have to admit it would be fun to weild a pick and sword at the same time.
Aside from agreeing with pretty much everything already mentioned...
I'd like to see a greatly expanded list of weapons, armor and equipment. Perhaps a "universal list" that includes all of the stuff from the main book as well, just for completeness...
And fix the rapier's damage! It's too low to be acurate! :-D I know it was "revised"... I'd like to see it un-revised so it's comparable to a real rapier...
Brandon
Perhaps a wee little piece on weapon- and armor maintenance? It doesn't (or shouldn't) have to be any hard rules, just a bit of text on what may happen, possible negative modifiers if an armor starts to fall apart and sentence towards the end that says "If you got a rag, some oil and some time every day or a squire, your armour will be just fine". Very optional, very rules-light, and mostly in there for flavor and potential adventure hooks.
I'd like to see a detailed resolution of botches in combat that is more than just you loose half your CP next round. That could be one of the possibilities, but so could dropping your weapon, or your weapon breaking, etc.
A Botching chart; everything from "Lose 2 dice from CP" to "Stab yourself in the groin for a level 2 wound".
A detailed armor chart, i.e.; ringmail, jazeraint, brigandine, Japanese style armors, arming doublet, etc. with damage type modifiers like "Mail -1 vs. puncturing". Armor materials: bronze plate, iron plate, steel plate, Mithril plate?
A better explanation of encumbrance. I know you're expected to drop everything before entering a bout but how does shrugging off your pack affect initiative?
A better explanation of terrain and it's affects in a bout, i.e. how to use terrain against an opponent/multiple opponents.
So much... Here's to hoping that this is a big book!
Seriously, I'm interested in seeing a ton of things in TFoB, but will try to limit requests to a few of the more important ones. I would love to see rules for scaling the indivdiual combat of TRoS to include a greater number of combatants. Skirmish-level and even larger. Obviously, this should be abstracted so that it is playable (TRoS is not, after all, a wargame), but I would like to see the effects of troop type (weapons, skill, nationality, race, etc.), terrain, tactical decisions, and morale on the resolution of combat. I would like to see these applied to the Battle/Tactics/Strategy skills.
Also, how much does it cost to raise and field an army? A navy? Speaking of navies, how about a naval version of the rules I mentioned above?
Let's see... I like the sound of more fighting styles, and a more indepth look at armor (with new CP values).
The Riddle of Jade will cover other elements that I would like to see...so I think this is a good start to a list.
Oh, and one last note concerning my mention of race...how do the Gol fight? And can you imagine having to deal with a score (or more) of Great Ape Hef? All at once? *shudder*
Chris
To add to the list:
explanations of what armors covers what locations in greater detail. The hit locations go into greater detail, and I want to see the armor locations covered as well.
Revised CPs for armor, as stated
Mass combat, while emphasizing character roles in it; we arent looking for miniatures rules here, but we do want dramatic mass combat with PC involvement , particularly when the PC is leading the masses, heh (although, hm, wanna do a new game? and take on Warhammer fantasy head to head? :D )
More detailed counters, and botches. Unlike others, I dont care about the fancy names, but more mechanics would be neat.
Regarding the role of mass combat, you might want to keep in mind what happens if a PC is running a sorcerer.... that might be better addressed in S&F, but maybe a short blurb....
I forgot about missle weapons in my previous post. I'd like to see rules regarding different types of arrow/bolt heads, i.e. hunting, armour piercing, barbed, etc. along with different types of bows and crossbows. What happens when you roll a botch, the effects of moisture on these types of weapons (the bow and the string). Finally, I'd like to see something like the Die of Fate from The Burning Wheel implimented.
Im thinking something along the lines of a follow-up attack. something so that when you land a successful hit, your weapon doesn't automatically go back to your stance. you know, something like being able to twist a dagger after stabbing, maybe to add more pain or blood loss. or after stabbing someone, so long as they're still alive, being able to rip your blade out in a way that does some extra damage to them.
Mass battle stuff is a must, and more armor is necessary also.
Dang! I think everyone has pretty much covered it all.
Quote from: ShadelingDang! I think everyone has pretty much covered it all.
One last thing: Simpler buying initiative rules.
yrs--
--Ben
I know it would be rather complicated to make whole new damage charts and hit locations, but I'd like to see some notes on hitting to the back.
Definitely want to see exact detailed descriptions of what armor covers which areas. You will not believe the arguments that occurred because everyone had different perceptions of what a chain shirt was and what it protected, etc.
Also, it says that there are firearms, so some stats please? I have had players wanting to have firearms and have been utterly clueless!
Perhaps also something like if you fail on the roll does the gun jam or backfire on the player causing them so many wounds, etc?
Any maybe something saying which weapons are best when against other specific weapons? For example trying to use a Rapier to parry a morningstar might not be the best idea or something of that nature.
Can't wait!!
Amy
I just want to assure you guys that Jake and I do really appreciate this thread and are keeping an eye on it. Absolutely no promises at this point as to what will make it into the book or not, of course.
Anyway, I just didn't want anyone to feel discouraged that there had not been any "response".
Brian.
I got a wish not for the book but for the making of it.
It should be possible for us fans to get stuff into the book, if it is good.
I loved seeing the names of some of us in OBAM listed as contributors.
But I guess this thread is a sign that this is planned for the Flower as well!?!
Well, maybe. If there's something you (or anyone) feels particularly apt and qualified to write about that's popped up here, then email me about it and we'll chat.
Jake
Quote from: Jake NorwoodWell, maybe. If there's something you (or anyone) feels particularly apt and qualified to write about that's popped up here, then email me about it and we'll chat.
Jake
As long as it's not something I'm already working on :-)
(Such as armor and mass combat, right now)
Brian.
My wish list includes better armor rules and rules for breaking weapons and shields. I think these are already covered, but these are my wishes :).
Siege Engineering:
- engines
- improvised engines (rams, etc)
- mining/counter-mining
- scaling
- barricades, pits, etc.
- sorcery and sieges
Culture:
- preferred armor and weapons of each nation
- preferred small-unit tactics of each nation
- preferred tactics and strategies of each nation
Add to the wish list -
Formation fighting: both on an individual level and for mass combat.
Shipboard and ship to ship combat.
I'd go for the offensive use of the shield. For example, in the Zulu assegai and shield combo, the shield is the primary aggressive weapon and the spear used once the opponent has been battered to the ground.
Quote from: KrammerIm thinking something along the lines of a follow-up attack. something so that when you land a successful hit, your weapon doesn't automatically go back to your stance. you know, something like being able to twist a dagger after stabbing, maybe to add more pain or blood loss. or after stabbing someone, so long as they're still alive, being able to rip your blade out in a way that does some extra damage to them.
It would be cool to see this taken a step further. Attacks can shift you into new stances, some at your option some due to the nature of the attack. Anything from "blade lodged in the skull" to a mapping of the options for backhand vs. forehand strikes due to blade position.
Thomas
After some consideration i find that i really want a couple of things.
-More stances: i'd really like to see a lot more stances customized for different schools. Something with +2 dice for feints, or +3 dice for full evade. Personally i'd love to see stances become much more important, though i'm not sure how practical that would be.
-More maneuvers: i'm not really that up to speed on European combat (i'm more interested in Oriental stuff myself), but i would like to see not only more maneuvers, but more specific maneuvers. Maybe not mechanically, but kind of explaining what a Bind and Strike entails for someone fighting with a Case of Rapiers as opposed to Sword and Shield. Kind of a description of what the maneuver would look like.
-All sorts of stuff that's already been mentioned.
Thomas
Looks to me like there are already "rules" for a lot of these requests, you just have to think slightly creatively, if that. (aggravating wounds, formation fighting, etc.)
My request is to call mail armour mail hehe. Calling it chain is confusing, there was armour that used chains, and the term is ahistorical and kinda redneck. Kind of a pet peeve of mine, no biggie though.