If it takes place in a feudal Japan like setting then it has to have ninjas.
And if your gonna have Ninjas in your game it should be done right.
This is the most authentic online resource I've yet come across...
http://www.realultimatepower.net
I split this thread from the must-read Samurai thread...
Quote from: JaegerIf it takes place in a feudal Japan like setting then it has to have ninjas.
And if your gonna have Ninjas in your game it should be done right.
This is the most authentic online resource I've yet come across...
http://www.realultimatepower.net
Okay, so I had to double-take this, because at first I thought it was serious (then I saw the sight). But it brings up an important point--to what degree should Ninja (The Plural of Ninja is NINJA! If you say "Ninjas" you lose one point of HONOR and must roll on the NINJA UNSPEAKABLE DISGRACE CHART or die!) be included in the heretofore unnamed TROS-Japan book? Thoughts? I want reasons for each idea, too, not just "NINJAS ARE COOL!"
And remember, the plural of Ninja is Ninja.
Jake
Ninja were a reality of Ancient Japan, so of course they should be present in any game that attempts to model reality.
A lot of funky mystic powers were attributed to Ninja, but in reality they were just extremely good at what they did (infiltration, spying and assassination, primarily) and they used fear and exadurated rumors to keep people afraid of all their mystic abilities. On the other hand, Weyrth actually has magic, so there's no reason that the Ninja of Tengoku couldn't have some minor forms of magic, but (and it's a big but, Jennifer Lopez sized even) the primary thing to keep in mind about Ninja is that they were subtle and mysterious - they were not the "run around in full daylight in a black gi tossing shuriken and engaging in sword duels" that they're often presented as.
What is a ninja? It's someone very very highly trained in certain skills and with very high "dexterity-style" attributes (Agility, Wit etc). They're well trained in different forms of combat, are very good at the magicians trick of distraction, and probably they have special tricks such as exploding gas pellets (made with dirty gunpowder) and the like to make folk think they have magic. And that's probably all that needs to be said, to be honest, unless you like the idea of Weyrth Ninja somehow having real magic.
But subtle is the key. For gods sake, don't turn them into D&D ninja.
Brian.
a friend of mine showed me that ninja site a few months ago... we laughed our asses off for about a week...
i understand about ninja, but for someone to come up with a website of that design, and lack of intelligence... is awe inspiring.
Quote from: JakeBut it brings up an important point--to what degree should Ninja (The Plural of Ninja is NINJA! If you say "Ninjas" you lose one point of HONOR and must roll on the NINJA UNSPEAKABLE DISGRACE CHART or die!) be included in the heretofore unnamed TROS-Japan book? Thoughts? I want reasons for each idea, too, not just "NINJAS ARE COOL!"
My experience in L5R is that as soon as you introduce ninja into a samurai game either people want to be ninja, or people want to fight ninja, or just exalt in the coolness of ninja by dragging ninja associations into the game: "Our Lord is dead! Its a ninja attack!" or "My guy always wears a black kimono with no markings", or "I always sleep with a tanto under my mattress in case of Ninja".
It can take ages to get it out your system. Ninja were just too powerful an icon in my youth and that of everyone I've ever role-played with. Japan - Ninja, Ninja - Japan. It goes together, and it can quickly force Samurai right out of the picture.
Alternatives to the traditional Stephen Hayes style RPG ninja PC (Martial arts monster + kewl sharp assasin weapons + amazing stealth training + esoteric ninja magic) could be
Ninja as NPCs only, providing cool foils for the PCs.
Ninja as a wicked occult force. Anyone performing sorcerous actions is effectively doing Ninja things and would be branded as such.
Anyone performing espionage or sabotage is effectively doing Ninja things and would be branded as such. Espionage & sabotage specialists may or may not live in hidden Ninja clans.
Tony
--------
edited because I kept adding an "s" after "ninja"
What unspeakable disgrace must I suffer? I rolled a 5 on 1d6.
Seriously though...
I would like it if none of the modern mysticism attributed to ninjas nowdays made it into the final game. Most of the books I've read on the subject basically say ninja/shinobi were basically espionage/sabotage/assassin type agents. And quite frankly no different, or more skilled than thier european equivalents.
"Ninja" should not get any special magic or abilities. The only reason I could find that so much is made of them, is because of the way they stand out in comparison to the rest of the rigid feudal japanese society. They get far too much credit just for having cool outfits.
Oh, "the site" is a place you can go on the web - "the sight" is what Ms. Cleo has.
First, I want to agree with Brian on most of what he said.
Second, I think that since it is a fantasy game with magic, that ninja should be allowed to have magic.
Third, since they would be magic using characters, the priorities would have to be spent on them and they would be rare as PCs. And the GM should make them rare as NPCs, obviously.
Fourth, I think there should be a different kind of magic for the "oriental" style areas. Perhaps based on the same principles, but different. Thus the ninja magic could be a bit toned down perhaps.
Fifth, why tone it down? Because ninja operated in clans. A lone ninja was unheard of. So, if you have a clan of 50 ninja, and they're as powerful as a "normal" TROS sorcerer, then you've got problems....
Sixth, and last... Why have a seperate flavor of magic? Because the difference between east and west is a broad as night and day. Their myths and legends were completely different and that should be reflected in the game. As a westerner, going to Japan, for example, is as close to visiting another planet as possible without a rocket.
Brandon
You know, I just learned a bit about these guys, but I'll be darned if I can remember where...
It seems that Ninja weren't in fact Ninja only. It seems that they were almost all formerly Samurai or even disgraced Ronin first! I guess you could say the Ninja were to Samurai what Black Ops/Special Forces are to Rangers.
For the record I'm not currently planning on any magic in the Japan book. There will be magic inspired by asian myth, etc. in Sorcery and the Fey, which will, of course, be compatible with TROS Japan, as well as compatible with the main book, but I want all mysticism to be treated as religion is treated in TROS...it takes faith. So there will be no magic except as a GM-controlled "was it even real?" plot device, used as the seer in Rashomon was. The TROS/Tengoku connection will be a smaller part of the book...really more of a "this is what we kept from real Japan, this is what's different, now use the rest of the book as-is" sort of thing.
I think that the idea of using Ninja with a very firm base--Ronin (or similar) spies, assassins, and espionage experts--is the way to go. Not only is it more interesting, but if the book is clear enough on it then the "Ninjas Rock!" people will be happy that there are Ninja in the book. The rest of us that want something more...complicated...can also be very happy. And everyone is happy. Yay!
Good recources? More opinions?
Jake
I think Ninja definitely have their place in the Ancient Japan version of ROS. I don't know that I would go so far as to attribute magical powers to them, but a seperate set of skills would not be a bad idea.
Things that would allow them to do some serious acrobatic things, and some good prestidigitation skills.
As for Magic... well I think there is a place for it if you are thinking of making it similar to mythical china. But if you are attempting to replicate more of Japan in the 1800's then it wouldn't really have much of a place.
While my understanding of such things is limited, my own interpration of ninja was that they evolved from displaced monastaries driven underground by oppresive governments. In becoming covert and adapting to living within society (as opposed to out in the middle of nowhere), they began using their talents proactively, both for their own agendas and for pay. Also, I've always seen being a ninja as more of a mind-set than just someone who's really good at what they do. After all, to use a comic reference, while he is as skilled as any ninja, Wolverine is not a ninja.
So, to conclude, I suggest Ninja should have a philosophy to them, as opposed to just a bunch of sneaky guys who kill for money.
hmmm... IMHO (i'm not here to start a flame war but alot of the misconceptions about Ninja come frome 80's films and are totally inorrect)
A good starting point to find out the history would be:
Ninjutsu: History and Tradition
or Essence of Ninjitsu
both by Masaaki Hatsumi
Masaaki Hatsumi soke (leader) of the Bujinkan. The Bujinkan is a synthisis of 9 historical japanses martial arts (3 of which are ninjutsu based, the others samurai based) The oldest is Togakure ryu ninjitsu of which he is 34th Grandmaster.
this forum http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb also has a history section which may be useful.
When looking for information on ninja samurai a sreach on Bujinkan would be a good start there are some interesting essays on the history linked through some sites. But be warned there is an awful lot of rubbish spread around as well.
kind regards,
Dan.
Quote from: Dan SellarsWhen looking for information on ninja samurai a sreach on Bujinkan would be a good start there are some interesting essays on the history linked through some sites. But be warned there is an awful lot of rubbish spread around as well.
I meant ninja or samurai. not ninja samurai (I don't even know what they are ;-)
How do you edit existing posts to correct them?
Dan.
Quote from: Dan SellarsI meant ninja or samurai. not ninja samurai (I don't even know what they are ;-)
How do you edit existing posts to correct them?
Dan,
When you're viewing your own post, you'll find an edit button at the top right. Note that the forum rules (in a sticky at the top of the forum) forbid you from editing a post after someone else has replied to it. This is to prevent confusion where it looks like someone is responding to something you apparently didn't say (because you've edited it out), etc.
Brian.
Thanks for the reply Brian,
I did end up finding the button while on another thread, I wasn't looking then either.
That rule seems fair. I would put a note on to say I edited it even if no one had replyed.
Cheers,
Dan.
The main reason I think you'd want to include Ninja is because they balance the samurai. And because they look cool.
The Samurai epitomized Japanese values; the appearance of devotion being more important amost than genuine devotion itself. It's that ambiguity which makes the culture interesting and real. Even if conformity is very stringent, people still are people, with dirty thoughts and naughty intentions. They're not stereotypes.
The Samurai must adhere to this code. This limits him in many ways.
There are many 'useful' duties a Samurai cannot be seen to perform, or ways of approaching a problem which he cannot allow himself. He must always project that appearance of the devoted slave. Spying, disguise, assassination. All these strategies are essential for war, yet a Lord could never ask such of a Samurai. It is only natural that a need would arise for individuals who can perform that role.
The danger lies in making Ninja nothing other than uber-death-samurai who wear black, have cooler tricks, and throw shuriken wherever they go. Samurai were married to the sword, grew up to know mainly of war and battle. On the whole, a Samurai would outfight a Ninja. A ninja, however, can provide an alternative service to open aggression, when the direct approach isn't appropriate.
And did I say they look cool.
You need to realize, though, that the Ninja aren't too much different than a western assassin. They wear cooler clothes, and they have a different method of going about with their work, but just how much different are they from what you could find in Europe? It's not like the Ninja are the only ones who can sneak around, spying and killing people. Anybody who trains in the right way could do that. You could make just as good a character in the western parts of Weyrth as it is.
Because of that, there shouldn't be any question in the game as to whether or not you can make a Ninja character. Why shouldn't you be able to?
Jake, I recommend looking at any "historical sources" regarding ninja with an extremely skeptical eye.
Best,
Ron
Hello everyone!
I ordered the book just last Wed, and I'm very excited about getting it. I've been emailing Brian back and forth, and discussing some things with him, and this was one of them.
I don't see why a ninja can't be created under the current rules......
You can already make thieves, spies, assassins, and ne'er-do-wells, why do you need anything but the weapon/armor stats to create one?
Jake has thoughtfully included Eastern cultures into the normal setting of Weyrth, so why can't your thieves/spies/assassins from Tengoku be ninja?
Why do ninja need magic? If the ninja paid the price to be a sorcerer. (i.e. put his priorities in that order) He could be lacking skills which are the ninja/thief/assassin's stock-in-trade. I don't think ninja, and sorcerer are mutually exclusive mind you, but for EVERY ninja to be a sorcerer is absurd.
As is giving them their own unique magic system. If Jake wants to include a system for Hedge magic, then by all means, ninja are welcome to it JUST like every other PC and NPC in the world of Weyrth. It should also fall under the priorities in character creation. Not as expensive as sorcery, but not a priority F either......
Anyway, this is not to say that ninja aren't cool. I fell in love with them in the 80's just like every other kid. They are a great icon/archetype for a character, and I can see the potential for a lot of great role-playing, even the SAs would be great. (Passion: Loyalty to the clan)
It's just that most game systems make a ninja the ultimate in munchkinism by giving ninja unique abilities or stats, and I don't want to see this happen in TROS. I like the way that it is setup, and I like the freedom that is given in the character creation process. So why the synthetic "east"/"west" division? As Jake has said many times, Western Martial Arts and Eastern Martial arts do not cancel each other out. Both use different tools (longsword vs. katana, naginata vs. spear) but both are designed with the same thing in mind. Killing people or at least putting them out of commission. Neither is superior, nor are they that different. (as there are only so many ways for the human body to move)
That's just my 2 cents on this issue, and I hope that I haven't stepped on anyone's toes by being the newbie who comes in and rails off an opinion that doesn't meet with the group consensus. Have fun playing TROS, I know I will as soon as I can get my book and read it.
SHINOBI: SHADOWS OF NIHON is an excellent sourcebook for, if not authentic "ninjas" (the concept of which, as R.E. has pointed out, is a contradiction in terms), creating shinobi as close to the historical myth as possible. It was published as a supplement for SENGOKU; I'm not sure if it's still in print...
Yeah, another good game sourcebook on Ninja (as well as Samurai and Japan in general) is Runequest's Land of Ninja. In it, Ninja are simply very highly trained operatives, not magical freaks. Yes, it's feasible that there could be certain clans (or certain members within a clan, given the scarcity of mages in RoS) that implement magic, but not every ninja need be magical. Like I said, they are simply extremely well trained spies, assassins, and thieves (but having training from birth pretty much destroys your chance for a normal life...I think to really create one, you'd have to "win" the right to use more priority As, so first-character ninja might not be possible). There could be a couple of clan skills, as well, but these are things that a Westerner could learn, too, should he have time and ability to do so, as well as a teacher in some cases
-Joel Norman,
a voice from the past (yes, I'm back and back into gaming)
Yes, clan skills could be a way to differentiate the ninja, and I agree that a Westerner should be allowed to learn them as well. I would like to see TROS avoid the East/West dichotomy that most games foster. I believe an integrated world of Weyrth makes more sense.
I prefer the "highly trained operative" approach to ninja. It makes more sense to me than mystically trained superbeings with KeWl PoWerZ.
Quote from: BloodstrykeYes, clan skills could be a way to differentiate the ninja, and I agree that a Westerner should be allowed to learn them as well. I would like to see TROS avoid the East/West dichotomy that most games foster. I believe an integrated world of Weyrth makes more sense.
I prefer the "highly trained operative" approach to ninja. It makes more sense to me than mystically trained superbeings with KeWl PoWerZ.
I actually like the idea of them having totally mundane skills, but using trickery and such to convince witnesses otherwise - so while players and characters might know that their "powers" are all tricks, the average "man in the street" is convinced otherwise. Note that this does not mean physical and fighting superpowers, just good preparation and practice. Although, it can be a little (and I mean a little!) idealized for the game. The skills and the secrecy should be enough to make them very intriguing aand dangerous. Certainly if a party member was a ninja, none of the other members would even know (and probably wouldn't even suspect). If one found out, however, it would probably mean a death sentence for the party member or the ninja (their secrecy is on of the things that protects them from the powers-that-be just wiping them all out). Some of their gadgets might be neat, too - as no one would really know how to use them and even if they figure it out, they will have to practice a lot to be successful. Basically, if you want to learn "ninja-stuff" there goes a lot of your time for learning other stuff, and I wonder what the locals would think of you... Not to mention that you might be visited late one night by those you are trying to emulate - and not to partake in a tea ceremony...
Another interesting variation on the trained killer is the historical assassin cult...
tauman
Several good points!
Secrecy and trickery, it worked for real ninja, now it can work for TROS ninja. I also like the idea that the other party members would have no idea......
That gives me an idea for a plot.... Thanx!! :)
Actually, really incorporating the secret identity thing as a player is kind of hard. Unless your group is used to the idea of nobody being allowed to look at another's charactar sheet (which I like, but is little practiced), other players figure out soon enough that a PC is a ninja, and then it becomes simply a matter of roleplaying it well enough, which is also seldomly done correctly.
But this raises another point...I disagree that a ninja would be lacking in other more normal skills. Besides the fact that ninjas would then become an excuse to be munchkins, I point out that since a ninja probably would have to do spying and maintain cover identities, ninja should be skilled in doing mundane tasks as well as the other cooler stuff. Hence why I say they probably need to be a special "earned charactar" in order to have the right priorities to use. But as I also pointed out, being trained from childhood would mark somebody's life permenantly. They will ALWAYS have enemies looking for them, and would almost always have superiors to answer to (unless they rebel and have their former clan hunting them down, which relates to what I just said). Normal adventurers might be able to retire someday and settle down to a more-or-less normal life, but a ninja very rarely could.
Quoteother players figure out soon enough that a PC is a ninja, and then it becomes simply a matter of roleplaying it well enough, which is also seldomly done correctly.
This is a matter of play style. For some groups this will be a problem. For other's it's a very simple matter. It comes down to the players agreeing that even if their characters have conflicting goals, that the players don't have to as well. IOW, it's all dependent on the level of player v player competition, which is often subsumed in such styles.
Mike
It's interesting...a couple years back, when I was one of the nameless Texans (see the book) helping to create and playtest Riddle, I talked with Jake about the whole Ninja and eastern thing. I see from all the commentary on it here that I was not alone in my thinking.
Some actual clan skills that could make Ninja "cool" with out magic (besides special weapons and obvious stealth abilities) could be certain poisons implemented by certain clans, escape artistry, perhaps a clan sign language for use when on a mission and the characters must maintain silence, and MAYBE the ability to parry arrows/missles. That last one has come up in a few other games, and I've always wondered if it's really plausible as a Ninja trick. Any thoughts?
Quote from: casinormaland MAYBE the ability to parry arrows/missles. That last one has come up in a few other games, and I've always wondered if it's really plausible as a Ninja trick. Any thoughts?
Hell, I've seen people do it IRL, so it's not at all implausable, I just imagine it's very very difficult and something you have to focus all your attention on (so no blocking multiple ones at the same time, perhaps).
Brian.