This seems to be a popular current running through the How difficult is it to use HQ in other settings? (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=7877) thread and, per Mike's request, I will begin a new topic. To recap the keyword discussion:
- Homeland keywords should have "regional color" akin to that given in Imperial Lunar Handbook for Pelandan city-states, etc.;
- Clan keywords should remain for the most part generic, with optional color as per Homeland for well-known clans (nearly all Tsolyani);
- Temple keywords are not really magical keywords like those found in HQ, but are fairly similar to congregational membership in HQ wizardry;
- Occupation keywords will include spellcasters common to the setting, all of which should be based exclusively on wizardry.
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A thing to keep in mind when considering whether any should be made in the implementation of magic is that Phil is no scholar of the occult and, by his own admission, the feel of magic in Tekumel is more a game artfice than an expression of a concrete occult doctrine on his part.
Guess I overestimated people's interest...
I guess we both did. That said, at least I posed some questions to start my discussion (not that it helped). Basically, from this point, what do you see as still needing to be done.
Your point about the lack of an occult background is an interesting one to me. I see what you're saying, but I wonder if that isn't someting to be fixed. That is, if it's had little consideration, perhaps it would be cool in implementing the HW conversion to spice up the magic/religion angle for Tekumel, and give it a little more depth.
What I'm wondering is if there's enough of a kernel of knowledge about how it works to extrapolate something more intesive. What do you think? Could that be done without damaging anything else? Would it be worthwhile? I find it intriguing, personally, though I'm no expert on Tekumel.
Mike
I certainly have enough of a background in the occult to "correct" Phil's oversights when it comes to magic, but Wizardry already encapsulates the essential feel of Tekumelani magic. One merely needs to give spiffy names to the Generic, Universal and Temple "grimoires" of which we already know. The magic is not the really important factor, regardless, though it would be fun to toss in a Ghatoni tribal witchdoctor who used Animism.
What makes HeroQuest work well for Tekumel is its focus on relationships, on character as member of community. Social obligations, personal favors, etc. are all interwoven into the milieu and never has it been modeled as well as HeroQuest can do it. What gets tough are the numerous magical artifacts, whch will require some thought to render faithfully. I'll ramble more when I have time, but now I need some sleep. :)
I completely agree with you on the relationship thing in terms of modeling the setting. I see political conflict as being really targeted using HQ with this setting. I'd love to see how it would be in play (may have to try it myself).
Anyhow, any more thoughts on the artifact rules?
Mike
Quote from: RaconteurXWhat gets tough are the numerous magical artifacts, whch will require some thought to render faithfully.
Late and off the top of my head.
This is how we usually handle magic items, YMMV. I think it works despite the technological bent of many Tekumel magic items (steel works pretty much as iron does in Glorantha so those rules probably port).
Magic Items are abilites just like other. A hero purchases (cements) them if acquired in game with a hero point and they begin at 13. If the hero does not cement them, then they 'dissappear' at the end of the episode that they appear in (handed to your clan or temple). Eyes are fairly simple because they have one name, do one thing, and your ability represents your skill at getting it to do that (and like HQ magic the resistance is 14 unless its 'magical/technological'). I would handwave 'charges' for devices that have been bought and paid for with hero points or use that as the excuse for them dissappearing. Again YMMV. in other words, and character 'improvement' is bought with hero points and treated as an ability regardless of source.
Cementing artifacts is a no-brainer. The challenge is deciding how to translate the well-defined functions of devices such as eyes into the decidedly definition-lite HeroQuest mechanics. The easiest way is to define them in terms of wizardry spells, in that they have very specific functions and no room for improvisation. Or handle them somewhat like sidekicks crossed with guardian beings, in that they have an ability rating that represents the hero's understanding of its functions, and X number of special abilities with their own individual ratings which cannot be changed and represent the power of each function.
Guys, I am certainly interested, but lack time/talent/knowledge to add anything significant to your discussion. I am enjoying all the discussions adapting HW, this one in particular.
I have always struggled to understand Tekumel.
I am waiting for and pining the absence of the BESM Tekumel Rules due from GOO
Cheers
Rusty.
Quote from: RaconteurXOr handle them somewhat like sidekicks crossed with guardian beings, in that they have an ability rating that represents the hero's understanding of its functions, and X number of special abilities with their own individual ratings which cannot be changed and represent the power of each function.
For the more complex ones this is along the lines that I was thinking as well. They seem to have computational power in some cases, and could be thought of as primitive AIs almost. Given a lack of complete understanding of the use of such an item, it's seeming capriciousness would appear like intelligence, it seems to me.
Could some be handled like Spirits?
Mike
Quote from: Russell HoyleI have always struggled to understand Tekumel.
What have been the greatest obstacles to your understanding?
Tekumel can seem overwhleming at first glance, but actually is no more or less complex a setting than, say,
Forgotten Realms or
Heavy Gear's Terra Nova. The largest barrier to newcomers are the languages, in my opinion, as few Tekumelani names lend themselves to easy pronunciation. The cultures seem fairly strange when compared to stock Western medieval fantasy worlds, but they are not particularly odd if you are familiar with ancient or oriental cultures. Ancient and medieval India (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/india/indiasbook.html), China (http://www.asterius.com/china/), Persia (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook05.html) and Byzantium (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/byzantium/) are all equally foreign to modern eyes.
QuoteI am waiting for and pining the absence of the BESM Tekumel Rules due from GOO.
When I spoke with Mark McKinnon at GenCon, he said that
Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne was in final pre-production and should be heading to the printer in November, for a tentative December release. The lead designer, Joe Saul, hails from my hometown, Ann Arbor... which also hosts U-Con (http://www.ucon-gaming.org), an annual convention featuring the largest track of
Tekumel events on the face of the planet. Many of Professor Barker's own Thursday Night Group come out for the festivities, and Phil himself has "telecommuted" via speaker-phone to portray the Seal Emperor in at least one of the LARPs.
Quote from: Mike HolmesGiven a lack of complete understanding of the use of such an item, its seeming capriciousness would appear like intelligence, it seems to me. Could some be handled like Spirits?
Automatons like the
Ru'un and created species like the
Vorodla assuredly have sentience, but I am skeptical in that very few artifacts we have seen seem to possess volition of their own. Most that communicate with their users appear to do so in a manner not unlike a
Kuni-bird, regurgitating snippets of stored information with little sense of pertinence.
Not that the idea isn't way cool... it smacks of the way in which nanotech tools were going to be handled in Digest Group Publications' lost
A.I. game (in no way related to the film of the same name... DGP's game pre-dates it by about a decade). DGP published
Traveller's Digest, a fan publication, and its founders wrote much of
MegaTraveller.
I have the complete set of Traveller's Digests. Good stuff.
But what I was getting at is that atrifacts sometimes seem to be programmed, and can do pretty complex things. Which doesn't give them volition, but behavior. If you understand the behavior, then it's just an object to you in that it always reacts the same. But if you don't understand it, if you can't always make it work the way you want it to, then the wielder may believe that it has some volition that's making it act in a recalcitrant manner. In any case, the wielder's Ability with the object would somewhat resemble a relationship in that way (in some ways they all do).
Mike
RaconteurX:
Quote
What have been the greatest obstacles to your understanding?
Tekumel can seem overwhleming at first glance, but actually is no more or less complex a setting than, say, Forgotten Realms or Heavy Gear's Terra Nova. The largest barrier to newcomers are the languages, in my opinion, as few Tekumelani names lend themselves to easy pronunciation. The cultures seem fairly strange when compared to stock Western medieval fantasy worlds, but they are not particularly odd if you are familiar with ancient or oriental cultures. Ancient and medieval India, China, Persia and Byzantium are all equally foreign to modern eyes.
Well, i would agree that Tek is probably no more complicated than TerraNova or Glorantha or whatever... trouble is with the lack of info I have access to! I can go buy books for the others, not so for Tek (yet).
I must admit I do have a couple of the old books, but found them a little hard to follow! I obviously need good formatting and lovely art to help me ease into a setting.
The other problem is my ignorance of the Ancient Cultures you mentioned. I have a Xena, Warrior Princess level of knowledge about them :)
Quote
When I spoke with Mark McKinnon at GenCon, he said that Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne was in final pre-production and should be heading to the printer in November, for a tentative December release.
Can I just say:
WOOOOOO!
Edited to add:
Even with the GOO version, I suspect I am going to plunder it for use with HeroQuest. I have BESM and havent been able to feel thrilled by it :(
Rusty
Quote from: Russell HoyleTek is probably no more complicated than TerraNova or Glorantha or whatever... trouble is with the lack of info I have access to! I can go buy books for the others, not so for Tek (yet).
Contact Carl Brodt of Tita's House of Games (http://www.tekumel.com/tita/). Professor Barker extended him permission to reproduce a truly massive array of out-of-print
Tekumel materials. Carl even assembled the never-before-published third volume of the Different Worlds reprint of the old Gamescience
Tekumel Sourcebook, and has the third and fourth of Phil's novels, as well:
Lords of Tsamra and
Prince of Skulls. He is a regular at U-Con (http://www.ucon-gaming.org), where he seems to play Lord Jayargo of the Temple of Sarku in the LARPs with alarming frequency.
QuoteI do have a couple of the old books, but found them a little hard to follow! I obviously need good formatting and lovely art to help me ease into a setting.
The sad fact is that the original Gamescience materials were produced in the early '80s, before affordable personal computers were commonplace. The Different Worlds edition of the
Tekumel Sourcebook, while done with modern layout, larger fonts and spiffy art, was incomplete until Carl Brodt miraculously discovered an intact manuscript for the third and final volume. Until that time, the only complete version was the Gamescience edition which, as you well know, is a pain in the ass to read.
QuoteI have a Xena, Warrior Princess level of knowledge about [ancient cultures]. :)
The people that have more than that are few and far between, Rusty, so don't sweat it too much. Frankly, you can play
Tekumel Xena-style and have as much fun (if not more) as we "culture snobs". Phil's take, in the time that I have corresponded with him, has always been "what is in the book is
my Tekumel, now go play
your Tekumel." What I find most amusing about this is that it took Greg Stafford eight years more to finally realize that was the only sensible decision for Glorantha, too. The "One True Way" approach to game settings is old hat.
QuoteEven with the GOO version, I suspect I am going to plunder it for use with HeroQuest.
I intend to buy a copy even if I am given a complimentary copy for being an early playtester, mostly because I want the game to be successful enough financially to warrant all the planned supplements. I would prefer not to see it go the route of White Wolf's
Adventure!, which was released as a standalone book (and only as a courtesy to fans of their
Trinity and
Aberrant lines, which were about to be sacked). The new game should be chock full of handy material, as the drafts I saw had a great deal of cultural detail (about Tsolyanu, at least... the others of the Five Empires were supposedly going to be dealt with in a supplement).
Quote from: RaconteurXCementing artifacts is a no-brainer. The challenge is deciding how to translate the well-defined functions of devices such as eyes into the decidedly definition-lite HeroQuest mechanics.
Aeye to be very similar to a talisman on HQ p.161(both games have them as means of summoning other planar energy in a defined fashion) in that you cannot improvise what the eye does. So it feels very like wizadry.
However ,Tekumel rule sets seem to give them the rating of a high-level wizard. You could reflect this by giving the item an ability rating. In this context it is more similar to animist magic fetishes. Most would not be charms because they provide a 'new' ability and thus can be used as an ability as well as an augment. The hero point costs to cement their rating comes straight off the animist magic table. An eye would be fairly simple with one or two abilites, more compex items could have more.
Mike: I agree that programmed behavior can seem to be volition, that is not the issue. We have not seen many Tekumelani express superstitious behavior when encountering or using devices of the Ancients, so I find it difficult to ascribe that sort of behavior to them. While they lack ability to create such items for themselves, modern Tekumelani seem to possess very little awe where such artifacts are concerned.
"Surely the clan masters will know something of this, Trinesh, or one of the Temples, or the Palace of the Realm. We will take it to be examined. Be not concerned, it will not harm you."
Quote from: Ian CooperAn eye to be very similar to a talisman... in that you cannot improvise what the eye does. So it feels very like wizardry.
Which you'll note I mentioned in the sentence immediately following the one you quoted. :)
QuoteGiving the item an ability rating. In this context... is more similar to animist magic fetishes. The hero point costs to cement their rating [could come] straight off the animist magic table.
More or less what I was thinking, though some eyes have broad functions more akin to affinities than spells.
HeroQuest does not really give us guidelines for cementing "items of great power", and the costs found on the Animist magic table are as good as any.
Good call, Ian.
Quote from: RaconteurXQuote from: Ian CooperHeroQuest does not really give us guidelines for cementing "items of great power", and the costs found on the Animist magic table are as good as any.
I had not thought about it until ruminating on your question, so I am glad to have 'realised' that use of the table. Thanks for asking the question.
Quote from: RaconteurXMike: I agree that programmed behavior can seem to be volition, that is not the issue. We have not seen many Tekumelani express superstitious behavior when encountering or using devices of the Ancients, so I find it difficult to ascribe that sort of behavior to them. While they lack ability to create such items for themselves, modern Tekumelani seem to possess very little awe where such artifacts are concerned.
"Surely the clan masters will know something of this, Trinesh, or one of the Temples, or the Palace of the Realm. We will take it to be examined. Be not concerned, it will not harm you."
Good point, but I guess I point to my own experience with people and computers. People are always telling me that their machine "hates them" or has other anthropomorphized attributes (like getting a less buggy machine that then "likes them"). Essentially, lack of understanding about how the thing works precisely, even if they understand that it's programmed leads people to treat devices very much as though they were people. Up to, and including "relationship difficulties". I do find that the people who are most technophobic and unwilling to learn have this cycle reinforced on themselves by themselves by their own refusal to see that it's just a process going on. By thinking that the thing hates them, they become worse at using it. They actually start to believe that it's the machine's fault that things go wrong when they misuse it. Easier to believe than their own mistakes, certainly.
I dunno, maybe I'm stretching. But I see the phenomenon every day working in a technology company. So perhaps I'm biased. But I think it could work as an abstraction.
Anyhow, the "normal" item rules would work just fine. I'm just looking for some way to inject a little more feel to this particular situation. It could become all rather dry if player start thinking in terms of plain technology. Maybe there's a third way to handle it.
Mike
As I mentioned here (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?p=87329#87329), I am into my new apartment. I have actually located my copy of Imperial Lunar Handbook and expect to post some tentative Five Empires keywords in the next few days provided I complete the preparations for my introductory HeroQuest events (http://www.ucon-gaming.org/schedule/events.php?action=search_event&s_game=HeroQuest&e_day=&s_event_type=RP&start_time=&end_time=) at U-Con (http://www.ucon-gaming.org) (wish I had a copy of Adobe Acrobat so I could tweak the Heortling section of HeroQuest Voices to fit the particulars of my scenario background. Ah well).