The Forge Archives

Hi All,

This thread is spun off from the Small Press RPG Anthology thread.

No Press is now the official "publishing imprint" for this venture.
The actual title of the book will be something like:
The No Press RPG Anthology Volume 1: Sparks from the Fire (or Hammer or something)

The Specs:
It shall be created for final output as printed and bound matter:
8.5 x 11 (to keep it simple, though i'd rather do an odd size...)
4c cover, black and white interiors.
Page count to be determined, but what's a good target? 128 pages?

It shall be laid out and funded by me.
I will expect volunteers for editing and other duties like promotion and actually writing the frickin' games.

It shall collect and non-exclusively publish ultra-light, micro- and short-form rpgs designed and developed on the Forge and similar venues. The rpgs should be of a format/length that they would not otherwise see print unless included in such an anthology. Authors are free to reprint their work as they see fit.

Money: Each contributor gets one share of the volume for his contribution. Profit from each sale is divided amoung the "shares".  Shipping and printing costs are subtracted from the money earned for each sale before dividing profit (hence profit vs cost).

QuoteFor Example:
If the book retails for $20 USD, costs $3 USD to print and ship, and contains 6 rpgs then each contributor would earn: 20-3= 17. 17/6= $2.83 per sale per contri.

To start, I will take care of the money end and disburse funds to contributors. I will start a NoPress paypal account when the time comes.

What we need now are contributions. We need to hear from authors.
Jon, I think you're game for this. Help me by soliciting authors for their games/contributions.

Submissions: pdf format only. 8.5 x 11 layout.
If the game has a special design/layout please set it up as such -- so i can print it exactly as you have it.
If the game has no particular design (it's just text) it will be formatted into the anthology style (to be determined right here).

Art: We'll need artwork, so any provided is cool. However, I will ensure that each piece has at least one pen and ink illustration that accompanies its front page.

Time frame: let's get rolling and have volume 1 out by Origins.

I love this stuff!
-Luke

What am I forgetting?
Who's on board?
What am I forgetting again?

I heartily offer editing/layout/number-cruching skills as necessary and needed. Just to make it clear that I think this is a fabulous idea and am thoroughly committed to seeing it happen. You tell me what I can do to help, and I'll find a way to do it. Go NPP!

I also wanted to say that I think that "Sparks from the Forge" is utterly cool. If the plan is to do a continuing series (as Volume One implies) then I vote that "Sparks from the Forge" is a subtitle, and each volume would have some other unique title. Or, SftF is the title, and there are multiple volumes. Have I mentioned that I really like this phrase? ;)

Aidan

I think this is a fantastic idea, but I suspect my primary contribution to such a work would be in the kibitzing arena.  I can sort of draw, so perhaps I can do something there.

As I understand blacksmithing, the thing that's providing heat is the hearth or forge, and then there's the anvil for hammering and bending, and then a quenching tub or something like that.

It seems to me that if this is a collection of things then a primary name which reflects a crafted or made thing or collection of things might be best, with 'Works from the Forge' or 'Sparks from the Forge' as a subtitle.

Shaped Metal: Works from the Forge?  Tempered Steel: Works from the Forge?

Like I said, kibitzing.  =)

Aidan,

I too really like the title "Sparks from the Forge."

However, let me say it once and for all: We can't use The Forge in the title treatment.

Correct me if I am wrong, Ron.

Hence my, "Sparks from the Hammer or Fire or Kiln or Lighter" idea (which i handily stole from someone else. Please step forward for your acclaimation, please)

Actually, seeing the Forge logo is an implication of heat and sparks generated from the impact of the hammer, metal and anvil, I don't see this as such a bad thing.

-Luke

Luke,

I'll volunteer to work on editing.  Editing is what I can best contribute to supporting indie game projects, and I'd like to help make this anthology happen.  I'm sure I'm not the only editor around here, but I'll gladly be responsible for editing the entire compilation or working with others on the edit.

Rich

Hey Luke, an absolutely fantastic idea that's been around for awhile and I'm really thrilled to see someone take ownership of it.  

One thing I'd suggest, however, is to use Cost Recovery Accounting for the project rather than the method you use in your example.  That's basically a fancy way of saying no contributor gets paid a dime until you recover all of your sunk costs for the publication.  You can't use this method with the IRS, but for a project like this I strongly recommend it.

Basically what it does is lower your break even volume.

In your example if you printed 500 copies at $3 you'd have spent $1500 on printing.  If you only keep the cost of each book and pay the rest out you'd have to sell all 500 copies before you recovered your cost.  If you only sold 200, you'd be out $900 while the 6 contibutors were sitting on $500+ in profit apiece.  This would seriously jeopardize your ability (and willingness I expect) to foot the bill for volume 2.

Better, IMO, is to keep the full cost of the first 75 books sold to yourself which would equal $1500 in revenue, and then start distributing revenue above that to the contributors.  


Since you want to do print rather than a PDF, Clinton's Bookshelf is out as a fulfillment option.  I would build in a $1-$2 a book cost to be paid to whoever is doing the fulfillment (including you if its you).  Its one thing to volunteer art or editing because once the job is done its done.  But fulfillment is an on going effort (annoying at best, royal pain at worst) that needs to be done right and done promptly or the whole project suffers.  A nominal compensation for the trouble of fulfillment I think is in order.


Suggestion #3 would be for someone to donate the web space and maintenance to advertise and describe the book, with descriptions of the games and testimonials and downloadable goodies (character sheets and game aids) and such.  And then actively encourage all Forge members (contributors or not) to prominantly link to the site from their own web pages.

I'm interested.

I can do a little photo editing/idea churning. I have a game that's nearly done that might fit the bill.

Writing wise, I don't have much left to do on the game, but I'd like to get some playtesting done.

What are the explicit deadlines involved here?

Edit (Ralph's post crossed mine): I have some webspace I could offer as well.

I'll lend a hand editing, and possibly contribute a game too.

-Matt

EDIT: Oh, and I can help with web stuff too, obviously.

Well! I'll dust off Pollies and polish it up.  Cool.  

I can also provide proof-reading services.

Thanks, Luke!

I'm with Ralph on making sure we break even.  Also, you might want to think about RPGmall, in case you want to farm out distribution so we don't have to deal with it personally.  A POD anthology that we could also sell as a PDF might get people from both markets.  Easier to break even, that way, as the PDF sales would also finance each print run.

As for the title, Ron did say that we could acknowledge that these were all "games from the Forge," so I don't see why "Sparks from the Forge" would be any different, if we kept it as a subtitle.  But I'll let Ron clarify that.

My suggestions:
-- Tinderbox: Sparks from the Forge
-- [whatever Hephaestus' son's name was]: Sparks from the Forge

I think this is a great idea (glad I chose to come back today) and I could contribute a game or two (EODL or my Iron chef: Songs of Distant Spheres).

Also have plenty of webspace.   I am not the world's best editor so I will disqualify myself in that regard.  

One question from the previous thread and in this one about branding:

No one owns the Indie-game brand as far as I know and I think the project has enough stamina to stand alone without the FORGE brand.

However, I would say it may be possible to work the word Forge or a derivitive in there that would make everyone happy.

For Instance:

Unchained Forges:
Anthology of Independant Role Playing Games, Volume (X)

that way those who know may get an idea that these games were indeed influenced by the indie movement over here on these Forums, and those who don't will at least know what the book is about.

Just my 2 lunars

[Edit: grammar]

Sean

May I put in hearty request that it be released in .pdf format as well. The chances of getting a copy via my local gaming would seem slim, and the prospect of paying shipping costs from America doesn't delight me. But printing out and binding a .pdf; that I can do.

One more thing: I'd suggest something Promethan-sounding for the name, since Prometheus, after all, took a spark from the gods' forge and brought it to humanity.

Hi there,

Point #1: the single most destructive discussion topic I have seen in any proposed project of this sort is the title. Take it from me: if you get all into some big discussion of the perfect title, the thing will not happen. Just let it go. Contribute something concrete.

Point #2: "Sparks from the Forge," or anything Luke wants, is great for additional cover text. But it can't be a sub-title either. Everyone look in the mirror; say: "Not in the title. Not in a sub-title. Not in a sub-sub kind-of title." Let that go too.

I really don't want to have to deal with any more discussion about this absolutely trivial and project-threatening topic.

Best,
Ron

I can be cajoled into contributing small lightweight game text to the collection. I have one game I've started on and some small "one-page" indie games in my head.  

Contact me with writer's specs -- how many words a piece, how many pieces, that sort of thing, and I'll see what I can do for you.  Leaving me a message here on the board is fine.

I think that your leadership on this issue is a great thing, Luke. I'm sure it'll turn out to be an excellent product.

Just in the way of a clarification, you will be the person in charge of what gets in, and what does not, correct? As the one putting up the money, I'm sure that not every game sent in will be put in the publication, right? Only ones that you feel will help the publication with it's sales and reputation, correct?

I ask so that people interested may also get prepared for the possibility of rejection if this is the case.

Also, assuming that you are the sole editor, will you be putting ot any criteria? Or will it be left open for any quality submission?

Mike

I'll throw in my hat for any spare graphic design/layout assistance you might need.

Also, while print format is really nice, it's far easier to recoup your costs if you you go for at least a companion PDF. Just a thought.

With some minor revisions (and an FLCL-influenced logo), I'll toss in WTF? for a submission in a couple weeks.

One other thing... is there going to be some unifying element to the anthology submissions? Maybe a quick bio of the contributor(s) at the end of each edition. Perhaps even a standardized method of classifying the written contributions to make it easier to find a game that would appeal to a target audience. Say, the contributor may voluntarily list their game's genre (scifi, fantasy, horror, western, whatever) and whether it's gamist, narrativist, simulationist or a mix of any of the three.

In the table of contents, I see a long list of games with little graphic icons (dice=gamist? pen=narrativist?) noting this information as well as the page number, just to make navigating the tome easier on the reader.

EDIT: More questions :)

In what order will games be arranged? Alphabetically? By genre? Will there be special genre editions? How do you handle the occasional non-setting-specific submissions?

Quote from: Mike HolmesJust in the way of a clarification, you will be the person in charge of what gets in, and what does not, correct? As the one putting up the money, I'm sure that not every game sent in will be put in the publication, right? Only ones that you feel will help the publication with it's sales and reputation, correct?

I ask so that people interested may also get prepared for the possibility of rejection if this is the case.

Also, assuming that you are the sole editor, will you be putting ot any criteria? Or will it be left open for any quality submission?

Mike

Hi Mike (et omnes),

These questions are a tough spot for the anthology. Technically I am the editor in chief for this sucker, so technically i could reject something if I saw fit.

However, I am unlikely to reject any submissions based on content unless I deem it wholly and utterly inappropriate (yes, like Fatal. But, whereas I would publish Sex and Sorcerer).

As far as game content/design goes, the requirements are as follows:
• The game must be clear and readable. The text must be polished and "professional" (even if you are going for a hacked up feel, it's got to be digestable for the reader. See KPfS for example).

• The game must be complete and playable in the form submitted to the anthology.

• The game must be an rpg. That's a broad category, but I think an important one to note.

• The game must be "ultra-light, micro- or a short-form rpg". I think under 32 pages is a good place to start for the max length, but allowances can be made for extra room if needed.

If the game submitted can't meet these criteria, then I am afraid it will be passed on.

However, I will not be the sole judge of this. All those who have volunteered to "edit" will read over copies of the submissions and provide feedback on readability and playability (yes, to be a game editor, you must also be a game player).


As far as titles, layout and design goes: I WILL HANDLE IT. Trust me, Burning Wheel isn't hideous, is it? I promise to put the same care and sensibility into this project.

So please, no more talk about logos, titles or stuff like that. It's fluff that we can decide on in the end.

What we need now are submissions and more volunteers for editing and promotions.

Lastly, to address gobi's pointed questions:
I am perfectly fine with letting the author introduce the work. However, build it into the introduction of the game. The anthology won't have intros or bios, because assembling them is a momental task -- as a rule, author's NEVER submit such information in a remotely timely fashion. Sorry to ruffle feathers, but 'struth.

The anthology itself will have an overarching intro and outro, though.

The anthology will not abide by an imposed, synthetic game categorization structure. Games will not be listed according to GNS position. Nothing ever falls neatly into categories like that. Read the games, judge for yourself. That's what this book is for.

The game will be ordered according to the needs of the layout and the content of the anthology. I will attempt to at the very least make it a good read!



BTW, if anyone still has doubts about me and this, let me offer more examples of my work so assuage those doubts.  I have published other stuff aside from my game. Namely, the short-lived magazine, New York Fucking City. If you would like a copy of some of the issues, let me know and we can arrange something.

thanks all for your feedback and enthusiasm, I really appreciate it.

Let me say this again: I love this stuff: rpgs, print, and communal efforts.
Let's pull together and do this.
-Luke

I'm very interested in this project -- I'd be willing to polish up Pretender (http://ivanhoeunbound.com/pretender.html) to add it to the mix. Perhaps you should start a Yahoo group for the project, so we can all remain informed? Like Em, I'd like some writers guidelines, formats, etc., and would want to know where to send stuff.

Hey Luke,

• The game must be complete and playable in the form submitted to the anthology.

But not necessarily already playtested?

Paul

Quote from: abzu• The game must be "ultra-light, micro- or a short-form rpg". I think under 32 pages is a good place to start for the max length, but allowances can be made for extra room if needed.

Can we get a general idea of word count per page and how many fewer words would be available if quarter-page and half-page tables/illustrations were included in the submission?

Quote from: Paul CzegeHey Luke,

• The game must be complete and playable in the form submitted to the anthology.

But not necessarily already playtested?

::casts about innocently::

Playtesting is on your conscience.

But you would never release a game without thoroughly and exhaustively playtesting it, right?

Gobi:
As far as word count goes, I can't give a per page right now, because I don't know what my layout is going to be. However, I can give you a tip-top utter maximum of 20,000 words. Using a reasonable font, at 10 pt in 2 columns on 8.5x11 paper that would net you about 32 pages.

Please don't worry about length or word count, though.
Games like Unsung (for a long one), Risus and The Pool (for short ones) are what we are after. Write a good, short form rpg and we'll do our best to fit it in.

At this point I am feeling rather liberal about interior design. As I mentioned before, if the author wants to do his/her own design using his own fonts and graphics and shtuff, then I will put the piece in the anthology in that exact design. If you don't have a strong design, then we'll make it uniform with the rest of the piece and plop it in.

One last thing that you must have as the author: you must own the copyrights to this work period.

Submissions should be in PDF format emailed to: abzu@burningwheel.org

You may include an introduction to your game/theories at the head of your submission (Hell, BW has an intro!), and you may include information "about the author" and plug your other games/websites and so forth at the end of your submission.

production schedule:
currently i am expecting mega procrastination on the part of all parties. which is why I set a June release date. I absolutely don't want to rush things. But I will say that if I can get "128 pages" of rpgs soon, I will put the damn thing out "soon." Perhaps we can even have two volumes on the shelf by GenCon. I dunno, we'll see.

Just submit games to me so we can start editing.
-L

I've got some ideas i guess i can polish up, but the following quesion arises: Will there be any overarching theme beyond RPGs?  Fantasy?  SciFi?  Would you want to release multiple books by genre (assuming the first one works out)?

Thomas

QuoteWill there be any overarching theme beyond RPGs? Fantasy? SciFi? Would you want to release multiple books by genre (assuming the first one works out)?

No overarching genre theme for the first volume. We have zero submissions, therefore we have nothing to codify.

Multiple games, same genre? OF COURSE! That's like saying, "Lord of the Rings has done it all. Why write fantasy?" Because every author has a different take!

don't worry about such trivialities. just submit.
submit, submit, submit.

-L

Quote from: abzudon't worry about such trivialities. just submit.
submit, submit, submit.

What format, and to where. BTW, this isn't just idle prompting on my part, I do have a submission prepared to send.

Mike

Two quick questions:

1. Is there some minimum length you have in mind?  If i have a 1,000 to 3.000 word game is that enough for you to work with?  I'm working on something right now that i'd like to submit, but i don't know at this point how long it will be.

2. Is there a place i can get affordable PDF producing stuff?  I'm poor, but i'd really like to be involved in this...

Thomas

Ok...

1. I found a PDF thingy, i just did a search for free PDF stuff... (duh)...

2. I am thinking to submit Powers That Be (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=8392) if i can make it work.

Thomas

Quote from: abzu
Submissions should be in PDF format emailed to: abzu@burningwheel.org

You may include an introduction to your game/theories at the head of your submission (Hell, BW has an intro!), and you may include information "about the author" and plug your other games/websites and so forth at the end of your submission.

-L

Mike, do you need any more info?

Smerf: There is no minimum length, check out Risus or Facedancer. They are short games, complete and playable.

Again, the game must be a short-form, ultra-light or micro-rpg. Use your judgement when meeting these criteria. Don't think of me as a big bad publisher with conditions to meet. I'm one of you, i'm on your side!

Ways to make my life simpler: Just make sure the game is a clean read. Have other folks read it a few times and give you feedback. Write a few drafts. Then send it my way.

If you cannot submit in PDF format, please submit in RTF format.

kick me,
-L

Will editors be working with the pdf submissions, or will rtf texts be requested at a later date?  I'm wondering about this because I'm really familiar with the commenting functions of microsoft word (which work with .rtf files), but I'm a bit unsure about the equivalent in Acrobat.  Is it possible to add comments easily in Acrobat?  If so, then I guess there's no problem, but if not, I imagine it will be easier for editors to add comments to .rtf files.

Rich

You can find a pretty nice suite of PDF creation/manipulation tools for free at Software995's website. (http://www.pdf995.com)  It's pretty powerful, and if you decide you want to register it, it's cheap as well...

Thomas

Quote from: Rich ForestWill editors be working with the pdf submissions, or will rtf texts be requested at a later date?  I'm wondering about this because I'm really familiar with the commenting functions of microsoft word (which work with .rtf files), but I'm a bit unsure about the equivalent in Acrobat.  Is it possible to add comments easily in Acrobat?  If so, then I guess there's no problem, but if not, I imagine it will be easier for editors to add comments to .rtf files.

Rich

Ah, a professional editor! wonderful! (you hear that, guys? a professional!)

Rich, I'll make special arrangements to get you .rtf files so that you can edit them and get the comments back to the author intact.

my reason for not offering such a service: i didn't expect anyone to know how to use this function.

thanks for volunteering to help!
i'll let you know when we get any submissions.

publish or perish.
-Luke

umm...I know how to do commenting in word too. As well as tables of contents, indexes, etc.  I edited in grad school - that means I'm semi-professional, right? ;)

Aidan

Thanks for clearing that up Luke--and thanks for the vote of confidence :)  I'd only consider myself a somewhat experienced editor, since it's not my main source of income, but I do like the ring of "professional," so I won't protest too much.  I'll be looking forward to seeing the submissions.  

Everybody, it's time to submit those manuscripts!  I know I'm looking forward to reading them.  Now that Luke's taken on the responsibility for this collection, it looks like it'll actually happen this time around.  

Rich

One last question before I submit my piece: Should we use some sort of notation to indicate heading levels?

Quote from: gobiOne last question before I submit my piece: Should we use some sort of notation to indicate heading levels?

ok, if you are going to submit an "unstyled" piece and need to indicate headings, bold face and italics in the manuscript please use the following:

note these after the appropriate item
Chapter/Section Head: <Head>
Sub Section Head: <Subhead>
and for more detail: <SubSub>

Burning Wheel follows the above style and it seems to work well enough.

put tags around any body copy that needs styling:
Bold: < b > word or phrase < b >
Italics: < i > word or phrase < i >

If you need tables created for your piece please make a note in your submission/manuscript and contact me privately about it.

-L

Luke and I have been talking a bit about editing in private messaging, and some things came up that he rightfully mentioned should be posted for the game authors to see.

Let's pick up where Luke said:

Quotebtw, ideally i'd like you to make the comments and have the author make the actual edits (not me). we'll see how this goes. it might add way too much time.

Here's my response, and what he thought would be useful for folks to know:

QuoteYeah, I definitely expect the authors to make their own edits. That's essential. I suspect you'll already have plenty of work on your hands, without that kind of thing as well. And actually, coming from a teaching background, I tend to edit more like a teacher than an editor sometimes--asking lots of pointed questions, offering ideas/suggestions/examples, etc., but letting the original author make the final decisions and changes.

Except for the final proofreading session. Then I just clean up errors. I'll plan on doing an "initial edit" to return to the authors for revision at least once, followed by a "final proofread." I'll have read all the submissions at least twice (and probably more times, actually) before they are ready for printing/layout. My name will be in there too, so errors reflect on me as much as anyone else--I'm a perfectionist when it comes to things like that. Plus, I want to make sure the Forge and these games are presented in the best possible light.

That's how I approach editing/proofreading, and I think it's useful for people to be aware of what their getting into.  The authors will be expected to do the heavy lifting on revising their own work.  Also, if we have multiple editors/proofreaders, everyone who is involved will need to do some norming, I suspect, and someone will have to be ultimately responsible for a "final proofread" for consistency purposes.  We can work these things out among the editors when the submissions start appearing.    

Rich

This sounds like a great plan.  In fact, it'll probably work as a good general editing strategy.  This means that any half-baked idea will get weeded out by either the writer deciding not to put in enough effort to get it print-worthy or having them make revisions until it's not a half-baked idea anymore.  Much more pro-active then just telling people "no."  In fact, sounds like a nice way to get free editing... :)