The Forge Archives

I've got a number of homegrown fantasy settings sitting around (who doesn't, right?), and it's occurred to me that Burning Wheel might be the right home for one of them.  It's probably not as original as I think it is, but I still think it's a nice little fantasy setting.  Its name is Hazaril, thanks to a random name generator, some tweaking, and a little luck.

   There used to be two worlds, now there is one - the other destroyed by a goddess in a fit of grief and rage.  The door had only recently been opened between the two worlds, and the destruction of one caused a cataclysm in the other.  Much was lost, but since then an empire has rose and fell, and a new Renaissance seems poised to begin.

   To be short, Hazaril is a world on the brink of an invasion - from space.  Yeah, I liked Spelljammer and I fell in love with Space: 1889, so I stole liberally from it, so sue me.  Anyway, the nifty thing about this particular space invasion is that the invaders are (more or less) the exact same races as the people of Hazaril.  This is due to some of the cosmology - basically, the "Mannish Races" were spread across the cosmos.

   At the purported "baseline moment" of the setting, agents of the invaders are already on Hazaril, but secretly, making alliances, sowing unrest and other such things while collecting intelligence for the invasion.  So there's been a growing instability in the pseudo-medieval area where the players start.

-----------------

   Putting Hazaril into Burning Wheel requires some changes.  None of them I believe are "major", but they're still "significant" (i.e. more than just minor).

   First off, there are the races and species (and yes, I need to separate them like that).  Humans more-or-less remain the same, but none of the other races in the Character Burner exist on Hazaril.  There are five "races" that are related to humanity (in point of fact, they are all part of humanity, just differing by the addition of an element - which is why they are "races"), and all of them would/should use the Human lifepaths.  (Yes, there are the "inspired by elves", "inspired by dwarves", and "inspired by orcs" analogues in this area.)

   However, all the non-plain-human species get only half the Trait Points from a lifepath (round down), because of their inborn racial abilities.

   Beyond the various races of mankind, there are several other intelligent species, each of them the children of a pairing of gods.  The current proposal is:

   * Great Spiders
   * Great Bats
   * Great Foxes
   * Outsiders
   * Dragons
   * Dolphins
   * Numina (more-or-less chaotic nature spirits, each with a different form)
   * Sidhe (one interpretation of "fae", the deities of which they are children control ice, dreams, passion, prophecy, royalty, and nobility between them)

   The first creature on the list is really rather simple - all I need to do is change the Undernest to reflect a slightly different nature.  In fact, until I saw the Great Spiders, I was struggling with what this particular god pair should have as children.

   The rest, though, I more-or-less need to build from scratch.  A long project, to say the least.  But one that I think I'll wind up doing, at least if there's any interest.

-----------------

   The next thing that needs to be changed are Abstractions.  The five integral elements of Hazaril are as follows:

* Air
* Earth
* Fire
* Night
* Water

   Any astute reader (and most others) will notice that there are four elements missing from this list, and one element added that isn't on this list.  The four missing elements are Anima, Arcana, Heaven, and White.  The new element is Night.

   Now, Arcana I'm willing to keep and leave un-changed, and for the moment I'm willing to leave Anima untouched too.  For both Heaven and White, see below.

   Night is the "luminous ether", the element that mostly exists between the stars, but which also pervades the atmosphere.  (The closer to the planet, the less ether there is, and there's more ether at night than in the day.)  It's part "cosmic rays", part "the sea of space," and part "quantum foam."  Ether is, historically, "the medium through which light travels."

   Thus, it seems to me that Night could potentially do double-duty as both Heaven (as a light-medium) and White (through the cosmic stuff).  That gives us seven elements instead of eight.  We'll cost Night as equal to White.

   But... in order for the Magic Wheel to work appropriately, each layer should have a differing # of choices.  By reducing the # of elements to seven, we bring it in line with the # of available Impetus choices.  Luckily, I'm interested in adding one to that group, oddly enough by coincidence.

   And that new one is taken out of the pages of Ars Magica - Intellego, or Knowing.  In Hazaril, there are spells of pure knowledge - there is an Impetus that allows insight.  We'll cost it equal to Heaven, since that way "buying every single abstraction" still costs the same.  I understand Luke's choice for keeping out of basic BW magic, but there's nothing wrong with altering such things for the purposes of setting emulation, is there?

   Thoughts on this?  This is probably the biggest change.

-----------------

   Third, Hazaril is slightly higher-magic than the standard Burning Wheel setting.  Thus, all humans (and other humanoid races) can cast spells without the need of a particular Trait.  Abstraction still requires a Trait, and only the plain humans can do it (none of the other races).  Certain other species might be able to abstraction-like things (spiders and webs as a big one).

   (I'm torn on summoning, because I hadn't really thought about it in Hazaril terms and still need to consider the ramifications of summoning existing at all.  Will get back to y'all on that.)

   "Popular spellcasting" comes with some restrictions.  First, there are very few spells that are "open knowledge" - knowing the Sorcery skill only gives access IN CHARACTER GENERATION to a small number of spells - the commonly known ones.  Additional spells at chargen require either (a) an affiliation in a group that'll teach it to you, or (b) some sort of Trait that gives you access to it.  Spells are secret and hoarded.  Furthermore, popular spellcasters can never MAKE a new spell - they can only learn existing ones.  
   Only certain people have the power to create new spells, and they're the ones who can use abstractions (new spells can also occasionally happen naturally, but this is rare).  In addition, these same people can BREAK an existing spell, so that nobody can ever cast it again, or CHANGE an existing spell so that it causes a different effect.

   (Theoretically, "making" a spell is an extra step after distilling it.  Think of the magical core of the world as an operating system.  The Gifted can manipulate the operating system directly, but everyone else needs a User Interface.  That's what the normal spells are - already-distilled constructs with a user-interface.  Which is why botching normally leads to harmless dissipation, rather than the garbled transmission of using abstractions.

   ("Making" a spell (or changing or breaking it) is meant to be an undertaking that, in BW terms, can permanently reduce your Forte, or even kill you.  The system I create will/should allow the Sorcerer to change the # of syllables in the final product, or the Ob.  Thus, the spells people ACTUALLY cast might be different from the spells that the Abstractionist can cast.  He can try to make it easier, or make it take longer, or make it harder... all sorts of options.)

----------------

   Similarly, I'm not sure exactly how to work it yet, but prayers with =actual effects= are more common, even for those who aren't Faithful (and yes, all of the human races can be Faithful).  My current thought is to have each working prayer be a special-skill like the elven songs, etc.  But instead of having a root attribute, just have them all open at the same value regardless of attribute, thus suggesting equality before the gods.

   Thoughts?

-----------------

   Anyway, that's my initial thoughts right now.  Is anyone interested, or are you all gaping in horror at how much I'm massacring your beloved game?

This sounds good, Alexander. I think you are doing the right thing with these rules -- modifying them, picking and choosing, to suit your needs.

In all honesty, most of the changes you mention are minor. Especially the changes to abstraction. If you're willing to keep the same # of facets with the same or similar ob/syllables then you're really changing names, concepts and end results. The mechanics can serve as they are.

Your system for "core spell manipulation" is a little more drastic, IMO. You're going to have to come up with a novel system for this that doesn't also break the game -- which I think is possible when toying with the already potent font of magic.

The elimination of a trait-buy for basic casting is fine. We've toyed with this same concept, and mechanically it works fine. You just have to anticipate how this will affect play. (ie, horrendous potential for abuse).

I would even go one step further and ditch ALL OTHER FORMS OF MAGIC except sorcery. Ditch "faith" -- call them miracles, but use sorcery mechanics. Ditch summoning if it doesn't fit, you don't need it. Howls/Songs are a bit more subtle than Faith and Summoning, but if you don't need them, ditch them. I think your setting will benefit from tight design rather than expansive choices that threaten to ruin or break it.

I really and truly intended all these magic systems to be a "pick and choose" set up. You don't have to (and aren't supposed to) use them all.

The addition of all those races is definitely a major task, but I am working on something right now that will hopefully make it easier. And honestly, I find "species creation" in BW to be rather enjoyable.


Thanks for your time and input, I'd be interested in hearing more about this as it develops.

-L

Well, while I'm keeping the same # of facets in abstractions, with the same costs, I'm "moving" one of the cost-structures between categories.  I'll be interested to see how that plays out, but you're right in that it's relatively minor.  As for spell manipulation, I'm sure there'll be a lot of odds-testing and play-testing with that one, once I get that far.

QuoteThe elimination of a trait-buy for basic casting is fine. We've toyed with this same concept, and mechanically it works fine. You just have to anticipate how this will affect play. (ie, horrendous potential for abuse).

Yeah, I can see the potential for abuse.  But there are a number of limiters on that abuse:

1.  Anything the players can do, so can GM characters.  After all, the "anyone can cast spells" concept is just that - ANYONE.  
2.  You need to be a member of an affiliation to learn more than just the basic spells, and affiliations are secretive about who gets to learn them (not to mention costing RPs).  Note that abstractions CAN be learned without an affiliation.
3.  As a result of #2, if your character is a member of an affiliation, and teaches his spells to non-members, and they get found out...  well, let's just insert an evil GM chuckle here.
4.  Finally, Sorcery is more commonly available, but the skill itself is still limited to a few focused lifepaths.  So unless the characters want to take those lifepaths, they'll have to spend their precious General Skill Points.

Of course, 2 and 3 are somewhat easy to get around.  All you need is one guy with the Gift, and have him make spells for you.  Assuming that works out, then the player group has effectively started founding their own affiliation, which has its benefits and penalties.  A lot of them political.

QuoteYour system for "core spell manipulation" is a little more drastic, IMO. You're going to have to come up with a novel system for this that doesn't also break the game -- which I think is possible when toying with the already potent font of magic.

Yeah, I know, and I'm dreading it.  But it fits the concept behind Hazaril sorcery, which is "a few people can actually make spells, everyone else just has to use whatever they make."  Also, making a new spell is taxing, potentially permanently - I'm going to need a system where the caster risks injury, permanent attribute loss, or death... EVEN on successfully making the spell (and in addition, purposefully increasing the chance of injury or death, i.e. feeding your life into the spell, should reduce the obstacle).

The big part is deciding obstacles for destroying spells so nobody can cast them anymore, obstacles for changing a spell so that casting it causes a different effect, and of course obstacles for affecting the obstacle/syllable/etc. of the final spell product.  I'm looking forward to it with both excitement and dread.

QuoteI would even go one step further and ditch ALL OTHER FORMS OF MAGIC except sorcery. Ditch "faith" -- call them miracles, but use sorcery mechanics. Ditch summoning if it doesn't fit, you don't need it. Howls/Songs are a bit more subtle than Faith and Summoning, but if you don't need them, ditch them. I think your setting will benefit from tight design rather than expansive choices that threaten to ruin or break it.

One of the big things for me in this setting is the dichotomy between the three forms of magic:  sorcerous, divine, and imbued.  Sorcerous magic is already pretty well handled using Sorcery and Abstractions as they are in the book, barring the changes mentioned above.

"Imbued" magic is going to be handled a lot like the current Elven Songs, etc., combined with race-specific Traits.  If Orcs had Hatred in my world, it'd fall under "Imbued."

Finally, Divine magic has two levels, when it comes to the Mannish races (as does Sorcerous, with spells vs. Abstractions).  At the lower level, there are prayers that ANYONE can do - little rituals that are the fantasy version of "now I lay me down to sleep" or "our father, who art in heaven" only with a bit more punch.  Anyone who does the little ritual gets the benefit - unless the god has a fit and decides that prayer doesn't work anymore, which they can do at any time (as they can create new ones at any time).  At the higher level, you have people who have devoted themselves to a single deity, which is where Faith comes in.  

In fact, I'd been looking for a Faith-like system for a while, and tried to do my own a few times in a few times, in a few games.  But your version of Faith is what I'm looking for.  I'm just debating various methods on how to handle the "lesser" prayers.  Making them work like sorcerous spells doesn't feel right - which is why I'm considering just having them be skills whose root attribute is the exact same number for all races.

In other words, I'm keeping Faith.  :)  As for Summoning - as much as I love the idea of summoning, you're right in that I probably don't need it.  There's no place to really fit it into my current cosmology, and I don't want to break the cosmology.

(And as there's at least SOME space-travel possible in this setting, I should mention how that interacts with these three methods.  Besides, I really like how the three interact:

* Imbued magic always works, no matter where you are.
* Abstractions work on any planet, but spells only work on the planet where they were "made" out of an Abstraction.  (There are Ob penalties for trying them on the moons, and generally speaking there's too little sorcerous energy in the black of space for them to work at all.)
* Divine magics work under the same star as the god(s) that give them.  Gods are not omnipotent, and each "sun" has its own set of deities.  

Incidentally, this means each sun has its own set of god-children, so none of the non-Mannish species are on any other planet - even if some other star system has Great Spiders, for instance, they've probably got a different set of default Traits, because they don't share the same lineage.)

QuoteThe addition of all those races is definitely a major task, but I am working on something right now that will hopefully make it easier. And honestly, I find "species creation" in BW to be rather enjoyable.

Very neat that you're working on something!  Of course, I'm still waiting for the Horse Burner.  ;)

But seriously, I'm looking forward to working on them - some of them are still vaguely form-less in my head, and statting them out helps me get a handle on them.  Obviously the first order of business are the Mannish races, since they're mainly the ones I see people playing (or allowing them to play).  Everything else comes later.

(Each of the non-human Mannish races has three genders.  Just a random note I feel compelled to mention here.)

Herein find an in-depth look at Hazarilan races other than human, for your perusal.  I'm hoping to have at least first draft rules of these guys ready in 3 weeks, so I can present them to my group.  I am adamant that all these races should use the same lifepaths already available for humanity - cultures are cosmopolitan, and all the races thus are a part of the same tapestry.  Even so, there might be "sub-categories" for these races, if appropriate.

Technically, all of the Five Races share the same DNA with each other, and with humans.  The only difference is a metaphysical one - the elements, which affect how the DNA is interpreted and so on.  Of course, all this is beyond the common knowledge of the people of the day.  But it has some interesting fallout.

First, there are no half-breeds - each member of each race is fully committed to being a member of that race.  How does this work?  Easily - if two different non-human races breed, a human is the result.  If a member of a non-human race breeds with a human, the result is the member of that non-human race.  This is due to elements - in the former case, the two differing elements cancel each other out, leaving a human; in the latter case, the human has no element to contribute, so the element from the contributing parent is strong.  (All this is barrning magical or natural intervention).  To put it in terms of common races, if you breed an elf and an orc, you get a human.  An elf and a human, you get an elf.

Second, all the non-human races have three physical genders, more or less - in addition to the male and female, there's a neuter sex generally called the "elemental."  The "elemental" exacerbates the features of their race, as they are suffused with the element, and generally commands powers above and beyond their kin.  (This is the equivalent of "Gifted" for the non-human races - and technically, "Gifted" is the third gender of humanity, but it doesn't halt normal sexual development, so nobody's realized this yet).

Thirdly, each of the non-human races has some form of racial magic related to its element.  Humans completely miss out on this one, because they are element-less, but they are more flexible.  This is the reason for the ruling I gave above:  non-humans get half the Trait points that humans do for each lifepath.  Calculated separately, and always round DOWN.

The five non-human races (organized according to element) are:

Night - Deneri - These were originally conceived as mind-flayers, but have long since abandoned that role.  Deneri are fragile albinos who can survive in the ether unaided.  Beyond that, my interpretation of them keeps changing, but it's generally good to imagine the kid from that movie Powder.  Their racial magic is still undetermined, but I'm thinking some sort of probability control.  Their elemental form is the Flenser, who can rend a person's mind apart from the inside out.

Air - Avalir - The avalir are winged humans who can't fly (but can glide).  They have sharp minds, hollow bones (and thus, somewhat fragile bodies), and excellent voices.  Following from that, their racial magic is in songs - think of a combination of Luke's excellent Elven Songs and the singing abilities of the Angels of Samaria, from Sharon Shinn's excellent books.  Their elemental form is the Shrike, who can actually fly.

Water - Vetal - Don't call them "Elves", they hate it, but the elf concept is what inspired these guys.  It's been a long, hard road since then, though.  First off, they are biologically incapable of eating meat - they eat vegetables, and can (must) drink blood.  In fact, unless they drink blood, they won't live forever in the way that elves do.  Vetal are almost always born in pairs or higher, and contain strong life-links to their twin-siblings - if that sibling dies, they have a "phantom twin" that occasionally gives them visions.  Vetal can also breathe water as easily as air, and move through the water as easily as the land.  Their racial magic is blood-based.  Their elemental form is the Wampyr, who eat nothing but blood, and whose first victim is always their twins, while in the womb.

Earth - Tarrax - Inspired by the dwarves, but unlike the Vetal you can call a Tarrax "dwarf" with impunity - to them, the other races are impossibly tall, and the Tarrax are just the right size (they are impossibly dense, as well).  Unlike most dwarf analogues, Tarrax cannot see in the dark, and in fact have uncorrectable astigmatism.  Instead, they have excellent hearing - to put it in Champions terms, it is Targeting.  They can "Earthsculpt" (move natural soil and rock away) with their hands, and have a distinctive sense of what lies beneath the soil.  Their racial magic is in their crafts and construction - the things that last.  Their elemental form is the Troll, who stands twice as tall as a human, and can "Rockswim" (which is basically what it sounds like).

Fire - Khan - Vaguely inspired by orcs, the fire quickens the Khan - they reach maturity earlier, and die young, and in between they almost never stop.  Where the dwarfs are smaller by almost a foot, the Khan are larger by the same amount - and possessed of a terrible hunger.  Their bodies are hard as steel fresh from the forge, their eyes can see the fire in others (heat vision), and their sense of smell is powerful (as are their odors).  Unfortunately for their reputation, the Khan possess a temper that occasionally explodes.  The Khan's racial magic is physical - think of Shadowrun's physical adepts.  Their elemental form is the Ogre, as tall over the Khan as they are over the other Races (but still shorter than the Troll).  Ogres possess four arms which they can use with equal skill.

So, that's that with that.

Nice color and background. Evocative and cool. But let's talk turkey, baby!

We need wheel to meet road: Common Traits, Lifepaths, Lifepath Traits, Special Traits, Special Skills and Magic.

Start small: Pick one aspect of one species and detail it out.

Rock me.

Bah.  You slavedriver!

Okay, first:  as I mentioned before, for the human-races (we're not into species yet - THESE are races, the spiders and foxes and Outsiders and the like are other species, but these are just "races" - minor variations on humanity itself, which is all a "race" really is).  I want them to use the mannish Lifepaths out of the book, with only a few minor modifications (at most a different "sub-setting" for each race).  That'll be one of the last things I do.

I've been on-again/off-again tinkering with a few different races in re: Burning Wheel, hoping to get something ready by the 24th.  Before I tackle a specific race in detail (I want to start with the Avalir first), let me get some non-Avalir-related notes off my chest.  They won't take too long:

* Vetal (elves) have "The Craving" - blood can be addictive to them, kind of like alcohol to humanity (only imagine if the alcohol ACTUALLY gave you magic powers and would let you live forever).  I figure this "Craving" would be sort of like the Grief of current Elves - and my current thought is "for each Lifepath the Vetal takes, barring a special few from their personal sub-Setting, their Craving goes up by one, unless they manage to eschew it and thus take on the penalties of aging."  The Craving value would add to their Blood Magic, much the way Will adds to Sorcery, and there will be a list of things that would cause Craving tests.

* I don't think Hazaril really needs a "vile language", so cross that off any list.

Okay, Avalir Common Traits

Wings

What really sets the peacocks apart from the other human races are the feathery wings rising from just below their shoulderblades, always of scintillating colours (in fact, Avalir of both genders are often bald - so wings replace hair as a source of vanity).  As children, they learn to fly before they can walk, but by puberty most are too large to be carried.  Nonetheless, adult Avalir can use their wings to leap - they can leap upward 1 pace per success on a Speed test, or forward 1 pace from a standstill (2 from running).  Leaping counts as a physical action in an exchange.

Additionally, Avalir can learn the Gliding skill, and can use it to, well, glide.  Obstacles and other mechanics can be found there, once I write them.  Other races can learn this skill as well, but need a gliding harness on which they must hang.

Hollow Bones

The Avalir body is light, quick, and agile - this, however, leaves them easily broken (yet no more difficult to outright kill).  Reduce the Superficial Wound of the Avalir by one.  An Avalir's maximum stats before bonuses are:  Perception B10, Will B9, Agility B9, Speed B9, Power B6, Forte B6.

Eagle Eyes

Avalir have exceptional sight, able to catch things at far distances.  (Note to self: look up the "Good Sight" Trait in Character Burner to have an idea about how this would play out.)  Between their fragile bodies and their good eyesight, Avalir prefer ranged weapons - reduce all range-related penalties by one for a missile wepaon in the Avalir's hands.

Perfect Pitch

Avalir have excellent singing voices, and good, strong ears as well.  They may call on this trait for any musical tests, and any tests involving the acuity of their hearing.

Notes on Avalir Sight and Hearing

I've got the Character Burner with me now, and have finally remembered to look stuff up.  From Keen Hearing, they have "Ear for Voices" pretty much as written, and from Keen Sight they have something halfway between "Penetrating Gaze" and "Eagle Eyes" - reduce ALL vision-based penalties by one.

Notes on Wings

Wings make armor and clothing more difficult to wear and build.  Most simply, a set of clothes costs 2 Rp for an Avalir instead of one.  In addition, wings themselves resist being armored - and Avalir have found that there are only two choices.  The first, binding the wings beneath a coat of armor, is uncomfortable for many Avalir - subtract one die from all their activities while the wings are bound.  The latter - having a coat of armor made to handle their wings (which costs 1 extra Rp) - is more common, but it leaves the wings unarmored, and completely open for called shots.  Called shots to an Avalir's wings is a +2 Ob.

Beautiful

In addition to the above listed traits, all Avalir are considered beautiful - by far the most comely of the Five Races.  Avalir women are the most sought-after for harems, and Avalir men can generally cause heads to turn.  This can breed resentment and jealousy, however, and often does.  It doesn't help that Avalir are eternally young - they still age on the inside, but it never shows on their skin.  (In other words, keep using the human aging tables for stat penalties).

Vain

The downside of their beauty, Avalir are vain, sometimes insufferably so - this, plus their plumage, is what has earned them the derogatory name "peacocks."  For those who've read the books, this particular trait was partly inspired by Dr. Tachyon of the Wild Cards series.

Avalir Song-Magic

Everyone can use the same magic - Sorcery.  No abstractions, but spells.  I'm brainstorming the "making a spell" system, and do plan on posting a first draft soon.  But all the races have their own racial magic as well, and for Avalir, it's singing.

My initial thoughts on the matter are to have Avalir songs work similarly to Great Spider Web-Wyrding - in other words, a Training skill with its root in "Singing".  This gives the Avalir access to all the Abstractions, but the Avalir may never distill them, or "make" spells for others to use.

General Magic Notes

Oh yeah, I decided that there's no "Unwanted Summoning" in Hazaril, since there's no regular-summoning.  So, normal spellcasting's DOF is now:

1-2: Garbled Transmission
3-6: Harmless Dissipation

Abstract spellcasting's DOF is now:

1-2: Outright Tax
3-6: Harmless Dissipation

Finally

I would like to hear commentary from the "peanut gallery" (so to speak) before I go on.  Thank you, Luke, for encouraging me to come this far. :)

This far? You've just taken the first step!

Honestly, I think that this process is more important than any other in BW setting generation. The characters are where the rubber meets road, creating unique races/species really evokes setting and influences play.

That said, you're on the right track. And the details you are adding are nice, but you don't need them yet. Try to do a rough sketch of all the bonuses/penalties and color (in a word or two) of the common traits of all the races. Then once you have everything mapped out on the page in front of you, you can got back and tweak and add more detail.

that's how i do it, but that's just me.

-L

"This far" is still "more than nothing."  There's still a long way to go, and yes I'm at the beginning.  But that doesn't mean I haven't moved.  :)

And, btw, I totally agree.  Races/Species (and their Lifepaths!) are super-important for a game like BW, and even though I don't plan on much in the way of Racial lifepaths, linking them to humans apart from a sub-Setting, that alone tells a lot about the setting, no?

I'm not sure what you mean by a "rough sketch" though.  Could you give me an example - maybe the rough sketches you drew up for the wolves or something?  I'm more naturally drawn to taking one race, stabbing at it for a while, then wandering on to another, but I'm not averse to at least looking at other techniques to see what I missed.  

Of course, the Avalir are just at the forefront of my mind right now because I think that, of the Five Races, if I didn't play a human in Hazaril, I'd play an Avalir.  Not that it matters too much, since I'm running the game, but that's my motivation and I should at least be up-front about it.

You're doing great! I hope my last post didn't sound harsh.

I just mean you should take it easy on yourself and do lists and shorthand for now, rather than your wonderful rationalizations and descriptions.

Here's an example (off the top of my head) using trolls:
Clawed   
if a troll has another character in a Lock and chooses to do damage (rather than increase the Lock) add +1 Power to the damage of the attack

Fanged   
on the Inside. +1 Power, VA –, Slow weapon.

Night Blooded   
Exposure to sunlight kills troll

Night-Eyed   
no penalty for darkness, +1 Ob in "bright light"

Massive Stature
Minimum Power and Forte of 4. The maximum Power is 9 and Forte is 10. The maximum Agility and Speed is 5.

Stone's Age   
A troll may not have a Perception or Will exponent higher than 6.

Tough   
Round up when factoring Mortal Wound.

Troll Skin   
   It provides 6D of DN 6 armor protection.

Voracious Carnivore   
Must eat a lot. Trolls are not picky so long as there is a lot of it.

This way you give yourself short lists you can compare to each other to make sure that each race is unique enough to justify its existence.

-L

Lxndr trying the "short list" process:

Deneri (still very IN PROGRESS)
-----------
1. Albino - Being creatures of the night, the Deneri are not accustomed to the fires of the sun.  They are at +1Ob for all activities in bright light, and -1D for all activities in direct sunlight (cumulative).
2. Frail - The Deneri can ever go above B6 in their physical attributes, or B10 in their mental attributes.  Furthermore, Deneri may move any points from their base physical pool to their base mental pool (this does not apply to LP bonuses).
3. Starchildren - Deneri can survive unaided in the unfriendly ether beyond the sky.  In addition, being in the ether revitalizes them - do not count the years for certain LPs against aging.  Finally, they always know the position of the stars, giving them a perfect internal clock, as well as a bonus die to call on for Astrology.
4. Anosmia - For whatever reason, the Deneri cannot smell or taste anything.
5. Night-Eyes - The Deneri can see even in pitchest blackness, but are forever blind to colors.
6. Sixth Sense - Deneri have a fully-developed Sixth Sense, as per the Trait.
7. Night-Magic - Deneri can perform abstractions, but only in areas where the ether is strong (stronger at night than during the day, and stronger up higher than down low, come up with a table).  They add the strength of the local ether to their Will.
8. Suspicious - This works both ways - Deneri are naturally suspicious of everything, and everyone else suspects the Deneri.  Can be called upon for Stealthy tests.

Avalir
-----------
1. Song-Magic - The racial magic of the Avalir shows up in songs
2. Wings - leaping, plus hang-gliding with the skill
3. Hollow Bones - Perception B10, Will B9, Agility B9, Speed B9, Power B6, Forte B6
4. Eagle Eyes - reduce all vision/distance penalties by one
5. Perfect Pitch - call-on for Singing, Mimicry, Music, etc., can always remember a voice and can recognize conversations over distances/noise
6. Beautiful - Avalir are pretty, and coveted by the other races, and are eternally young
7. Vain - Unfortunately, Avalir know they're pretty and coveted, and act it

Note:  Avalir men are generally dominant, and women submissive.

Vetal
-----------
1. Borne of Water - Vetal can move as easily in the water as on land, and can breathe water.  Switching from water to air takes time as expelling water from the lungs isn't easy (going from air to water is instantaneous).
2. Special Diet - Vetal do not have the proper enzymes to digest meat and get incredibly sick if they even try.
3. Sanguine - Vetal can perform blood magic (requiring the blood of different animals), and simply drinking blood keeps them young.
4. Craving - The other side of Sanguine, blood is addictive to Vetal (the more so because it makes them feel powerful), and the blood of the other Five Races being the strongest.
5. Twinlink* - Vetal are almost always born in pairs (and most of those pairs are opposite in gender).  These twins always share a mindlink - they know where they are across distances, can send thought and images, and feel each other's pain.
6. Lifeline - Vetal are strongly linked to life energy (blood and sap), and can sense it around them its the most general sense.  With training, they can even learn to manipulate their own life energy to communicate in a sort of Morse Code.  Call on for certain forms of Perception, and for medical skills.
7. Inscrutable - Really, it's just a personality trait.  Vetal can see the flows of life around them, and have a direct, constant peek into someone else's head.  Add that to their lifespan, and it's natural that they're a bit difficult to comprehend.

*Note:  Traits will be written for an elf with a dead twin, as well as elfs who were born in triplicate or more.

Tarrax
-----------
1. Sight of the Bat - Tarrax can sense their surroundings perfectly clearly in the dark, by right of their over-developed ears - anything that makes a sound, the dwarf can hear.  They also have the eyes of a bat - very poorly developed; all vision penalties are doubled.
2. Like a Rock - Tarrax have dense bodies - they may not go above Agility 7, Speed 6, Forte 10, Power 10.  Mental attributes are 8s.  They have the same speed multipliers as standard BW Dwarves.
3. Sinks like a Stone - Tarrax do not float - they are much, much denser than water and will always sink to the bottom.  Fortunately for them, they can hold their breath a long time (um, need BW drowning rules?)
4. Rock of Ages - Tarrax will not die of old age, but unlike Avalir, will show it.  They still age per the standard human aging table.  They are also very patient, and generally stoic, and sleep longer at night.
5. Unerring Compass - Tarrax know the lines of the Earth, and can always determine which way North lies.
6. Earthsculpting - Tarrax can move through natural soil and rock half as quickly as they can walk on the surface.  They may choose to leave a tunnel behind them, or may close it behind them.
7. Racial Magic - Something craft-related.  Specifics TBD, but generally speaking its their items/buildings that are imbued, not themselves.

*Note:  Tarrax men are traditionally craftsmen, and their women warriors.

Khan
------------------
1. Forged in Flame - Khannish bodies are strong and large - both Power and Forte may reach B10.  They are also taller than the rest of the Five Races.  Their skin is like steel - subtract one from the damage of any weapon (I,M,S).
2. Wildfire - Khannish bodies are quick - round up when calculating Reflexes.  They are also hyperactive and impulsive, and may call on this trait to add a die to perform the first action that pops into their heads.
3. Hungry Blaze - Khans are eternally hungry, fueling the machine that is their body.  They also sleep less - generally requiring no more than 4 hours a night.
4. Burning Eyes - Khannish eyes can see beyond what human eyes can, glimpsing the fire that burns within all things.
5. Blowing Smoke - Khannish noses are very sensitive, able to discern one individual from another by scent alone, and track as well as a wolfhound.  This is basically verbatim from "Wolf's Snout" of the Great Wolves.
6. Rage - The fire that defines the Khans is insidious, and burns inside them, occasionally overflowing in Rage.
7. Racial Magic - At first I was thinking some sort of physical adept type thing, but a recent thread at burningwheel.org is now making me seriously consider tantric magic.  Bah.

FUCKING AWESOME MAN!

GOD DAMN, YOU DID IT!

Now you are really really on to something. Wait, all of these use the Stat Chart for men, right? If that's true, then you are 90% done!

What's more, rather than giving us your cool prose to drool over, you've moved more toward inspiring us and firing our imaginations. Less is more!

I would recommend whipping up a "short form" set of LPs for each "race." No more than 6 each. (You should be able to do 30 LPs in a night, easy).

But I would also like to warn against strictly "racial" LPs. LPs really are cultural (as I will soon show).

Rock on.
-L

Yup, they all use the stat chart from men, and the lifepaths too apart from some sub-cultural things (and long before lifepaths and BW, I decided that each of the Five Races have certain subcultures, so a Racial sub-Setting is fitting).  Heck, originally I was going to have a two-part "Adolescent development" way back when this game was in Rolemaster - the first part the "racial subsection" and the second the "cultural subsection".  But lifepaths make it work so much better, and allow the two sections to interweave and collide.  So, yay!

My mom's just recently arrived in town, so I'm rather swamped tonight, but I'll do some work on their LPs tomorrow.

Do these races as written seem... well, "balanced" against each other, and against Man?  "Coherent"?  "Overpowered"? Any commentary on the parts that I wrote up that remain... well, unfilled?  (Khannish and Tarrax racial magic, mostly, but also the Vetal cravings).

QuoteDo these races as written seem... well, "balanced" against each other, and against Man? "Coherent"? "Overpowered"?

Abzu stated somewhere that it wasn't his intention to "balance everything" in Character Burner, and i'm fine with this point of view, so you sould not be concerned about that. Anyway noone expect that different races should be balanced against each other, just look at humans/dwarfs/orcs/elfs.

But returning to your question note that Humans from CB do not have specific racial traits (as Dwarfs, Elfs and Orcs), so comparing them to your creations i would say rather overpowered, of course you can make them more coherent, by not giving them as much trait points as generic humans recieve for same lifepaths, but i think this would not be ok. Against each other defineatly coherent - of course some of them are more powerfull than others, but each of them have some unique flavor to it - and that is what really counts for me.

Dro

Well, yeah, I put "balanced" in quotes for that very reason.  :)

Although I have "balanced" humans vs. the other races by declaring that, although they use the lifepaths for Men, they get half the Trait Points for any lifepath, always rounding down.  The benefit of Men are their versality, especially in large numbers.

I'm curious now, though - if you had to rank these five races in terms of "most powerful" to "least powerful", how would you do it and why?

Between a heavier-than-normal (or expected) workload today and, well, I don't know what, I'm experiencing a sort of writer's block on lifepaths for my various races sub-Settings.

relax, you've done a lot already, don't push too hard.

i'm busy too, and i am going away this weekend. we can pick up next week and brainstorm.

-L

A break WOULD be nice.  Specially since I got the last session of my Fastlane game tomorrow.  :)  I need to remember breaks, and the taking of them...

QuoteI'm curious now, though - if you had to rank these five races in terms of "most powerful" to "least powerful", how would you do it and why?

I'm glad you have asked that question. After carefull second read i noticed that some that racial traits are veery powerfull:

Vetal with Inscrutable
Tarrax with Earthsculpting

For me those two are game-breakers, first (if i understand correctly) lets you read minds of others, and second trait drills mas-sized holes in ground at yout natural speed!!! ARGHHH!!! (some thoughts for second one - did that tunnel have to be enforced in some way against collapsing or it just stays as it was digged?)

Ok without those two races ranks are as follows:

1) Khan
2) Deneri
3) Avalir

I think that other Tarrax trait Unerring Compass shuld have some requiements (maybe a little ritual involving getting your hands (yess those who dig tunnels like crazy :)) in contact with earth (submerging them into it), and then making perception roll (and different surfaces would have different OB for that).

Dro

No, Inscrutable from Vetal is in part a RESULT of their twinlink (they can't root through EVERYONE'S head, but each Vetal lives in the head of their twin).  I guess I wasn't clear enough, but yeah, the comment there in Inscrutable is just the fact that the connection through the twinlink is constant - not that they can do that to anyone.

Between the twinlink, their Lifesense (which is what I thought was the most powerful part of 'em), and their extended age, Inscrutable is really a short way of saying "you can't really comprehend them, they think and experience the world in a way that you can't possibly imagine."  It's not a case of "ooh, look, I can peek into anyone's head."

As for Earthsculpting, it's half walking pace (not full walking pace), and only through natural soils and rocks -walls, floors, etc., still need tools to be worked.  Yeah, it makes them pretty good sappers, but they're based of "Dwarves", and aren't dwarves supposed to be good sappers?  On first blush, I'd say tunnel generally stays as it's dug, but I'm sure in unstable soil, it'll collapse fairly quickly.  I'm still working out the details as they apply in BW - in HERO, it was two inches of tunneling through DR 5.)  Not sure why it's a game-breaker, but maybe I'm missing something?

(Meanwhile, the Unerring Compass is constant - no ritual necessary - after all, all they can do is know where north is, which without a skill to take advantage of it, or knowledge of the area, or a MAP, is pretty useless, so I don't feel too bad about allowing them to know the direction of the north pole).

Finally:  Awww, poor Avalir, stuck at the bottom of the list.  At least nobody can accuse me of making my favorite race over-powered, but still, poor guys.  Though I'm not sure they're entirely underpowered - after all, only they and the Deneri, so far, have racial magic that gives access to Abstractions (Avalir through their song-magic).  So...

Anyway, thanks for the input.  With my comments on Earthsculpting (and more importantly, Inscrutable) I'm now interested to see if you re-rank anything.  ;)

Nice that changes couple of things. And sorry i think that my personal preferences took me over (i prefer gritty dark fantasy stuff, and those races are surely developed with high magic/fantasy setting in mind) - once again sorry :)

Than let's go down to business:
(Updated ranking)

1) Khan (Forged in flames/Wildfire/Blowing Smoke)
2) Deneri (starchildren/night-magic/sixth sense) (They still have a big chance for place 1 - but i would like to decide after some thoughts on magic will be shared (abstract spell to create ether sphere around him and revitalize himself :)
3) Tarrax (but only when you allow earthsculpting only for digging thru earth - otherwise place 1)
4) Vetal (Brone of water/Sanguine) (water breathing is better than gliding imho)
5) Avalir (Eagle eyes/ Song-magic) (they would be higher what they would have ability for (even short) flights


Dro

Well, thanks to Burning Wheel, I can have gritty, dark, high magic.  All of those things can be true at once, and honestly, this setting was designed with high magic AND grit in mind.  Both CAN exist at once (heck, a world where everyone can cast spells is about as deadly as a world where everyone carries a gun... very gritty).

Remember that the Avalir wings can be used as a natural hang-glider, all you need is the Gliding skill... add that to their leaps, and I think they definitely have "short flight" capability.  (Leap up, glide down... leap up, glide down...)

Hrm.  I hadn't expected the Khan to be the highest ranking, but I guess I can see that perspective.  In some ways, though, they're the most limited, stuck in the physical.  Anyway, thanks for all your input.

I have a different view on the matter than Dro. Let's do the tale of the tape:

1: Denerii. No contest.
2/3: Tarrax, Khan. It's a tie for me.
4: Vetal
5: Avalir.

Starting from the bottom up: Song magic and Gliding are cool, but not all that powerful. The Av's greatest strength is their utterly outrageous Perception maximum. They have the Perception potential of Gods.

Vetal seem to me fairly well-balanced and interesting, with the potential to be powerful. They are the only race out of your listing that doesn't have super duper inflated stats, but their blood magic/sanguine/craving tripych gives them an edge. I would like to see rough mechanics for sanguine and their immortality.

Khan and Tarrax both have the potential for game-breaking toughness. A smart player could easily make an unkillable character with either of these.

The stat max of 10 is really egregious. Do they have to have the potential to be Giant tough and Dragon strong? Are they THAT much better than men? Or should they just get a few more physical points in the making and maybe one stat boosted to 9 max? These questions lead me to the almighty game-breaking Denerii.

Sheesh! I think the writing is on the wall for these guys: Able to dump physical points into the mental pool  (I would have two gray 8s so fast your head would spin). Plus they get magic/abstraction (hence the high mentals) and they get the night-casting bonus. Who cares about physical points when you can magic up ANYTHING that you need with abstractions?

I am taking a bit of an extreme "powergamer" position here, I admit. Just trying to clearly unearth the flaws that I see (since I can't playtest them).

You've got a lot of good material here, a lot of potential. Let's see (brief) ideas on Craving and Rage, and perhaps rethink the power-level of these human offshoots. Remember, a little bonus goes a long way in BW.

-Luke

To address the races in order:

* With Avalir, my first urge, quite seriously, was to give them human racial bonuses, but say that their Perception was Gray at default.  But from what I've read in the book, that seemed even more overpowering than Perception B10 - which is "as perceptive as spiders are agile."  That's where I took my cue for most of my stats in fact - the Spiders and Wolves.  I didn't have my Character Burner here for a lot of this, so...

Also remember that their song magic IS a form of Abstractions - it's just mechanically more like Web Wyrding than Sorcery, a Training skill that adjuncts itself to Singing in this case.

* I like my Vetal, and I'm glad to see that, at the very least, they're relatively "balanced" and not too overpowerful.

* Hm.  I hadn't realized that both Tarrax and Khan have "Power and Forte can reach 10."  That's too similar.  And if you think that the tens are egregious, I'm willing to change them.  How bout Tarrax as follows:

Tarrax: Will 9, Agility 7, Speed 7, Forte 9, all else 8
Khan: All statistics at 8 (their other physical bonuses should be enough)

Is the only complaint the stat maxima?  In other words, do these tweaks help bring Khan and Tarrax down to less egregious levels?  Maybe bring them in line with the Vetal?

And now, the Denerii:

* So moving physical points into the mental pool is overpowered?  I can remove it.  But I really wanted to emphasize their mental vs. their physical prowess without requiring a different stat table.  Is max 10 vs. max 6 enough?  

* They get abstractions, yes.  But they add the strength of the local ether to their will INSTEAD OF using Sorcery as a skill.  The strength of the local ether dictates their ability.  I don't think I made that clear earlier, but that's what I meant.  

(And perhaps the strength of the local ether should replace Will instead of Sorcery...  if I chose that option, then ether-magic would be a Training skill based on Astrology, similar once again to Web-Wyrding.)

I'll post my basic write-ups on Cravings later.  I'm still working out how Rage should work, I just know it's gotta be there.

Ah, good call: Why do Spiders have a max Agility of 10? Why do Trolls have a max Forte of 10?

Spiders have the potential to be the embodiment of Agility. Mythically this stands for me, since they are the "natural magical weavers." (and stay crunchy in milk).

Trolls, again, have the potential to be the embodiement of Toughness.

Whereas Elves and Dwarves simply have the potential to be better than Men -- but they still don't get that nod toward embodiment/perfection.

I think what is being muddled here is your desire to have descriptively and idiomatically races with stat maximums vs starting stat pool points.

I think you might want to hold off on the quazy maximums until you decide how many points these guys are going to get as a base for starting. In this case, you are going to reflect that in the LP stat bonuses from individual cultural sets.

Just throwing in a few more stat point bonuses on the LPs (in the proper pool) will go a long way toward fleshing out and making individual these races.

-L

Hmm.  I think I see your point.  We'll see how it goes.

Assuming I use the same lifepaths and age charts (and yes, this should include the Borns as well, if possible), and assuming that attribute maxima shouldn't be tampered with as much as I have...

If I put the attribute maxima for all the races back to 8s, what are some other game-mechanic-related ways I can address the following flaws?  Here are my ideas:

Hollow Bones (From Avalir) - I could just keep "decrease Superficial Wound by 1 and increase Mortal Wound by 1" (which I did say before) and let everything else take care of itself.

Like a Rock (From Tarrax) - My current thought is to remove the "skin is like steel, subtract 1" from the Khan and give it to the Tarrax.

Forged in Flame - Remove the "skin is like steel, subtract 1", as I said above, but instead add 1 to the Superficial score, and allow Mortal Wounds to round up.

Frail (From Deneri) - I'm lost here.  I want the Deneri to be the most physically weak of the races, and I specifically want them to be able to choose to reduce their physical stature to increase their mental abilities.  Maybe I should say "can move from physical pool to mental pool at a 2:1 ratio"?  Or 3:1?

And now, my basic ideas for Craving:

* Vetal blood magic is a Training Skill that uses Craving as its root.  I like the paradox that as the addiction grows stronger, so does the control.  So effectively, blood mages use Craving + Will.  Each different species' blood has a different spell-type effect.
* All Vetal have a Craving of at least B1, and no matter what happens it can never go below B1.  Unlike Grief, Craving should be able to go down through certain actions, but never eliminated.  I'm not sure if it should start at B1, or start higher.  On the other hand, Craving has Ob1 through Ob10 tests for it, like Grief and Hatred and the like.
* Vetal get a point of Craving for each and every LP they take that doesn't count towards their aging.
* Certain LPs in the Vetal Sub-setting allow Craving to be reduced and/or kept stable without aging.
* If a Vetal has the blood magic Training Skill, his *final* starting Craving is doubled.  If he learns it in play, his CURRENT Craving is doubled.
* Craving might occasionally be rolled by a Vetal in a stressful situation infused with powerful blood, or a Vetal drinking unfamiliar blood - a successful roll might activate the effects of the blood uncontrolled.  If this does happen in play, Craving automatically goes up one.

Craving is meant to be like an addiction, but only a psychological one - Vetal don't go through physical withdrawal symptoms if they stop, but they still CRAVE.  I don't want to force player action, though, so this will work like any number of character traits - by rewarding Artha for playing to it.

Still not sure how Rage is going to work, but Rage isn't Hatred - Rage is pure, cleansing fire, not the twisted ugly nature of the Orc beliefs.

And finally, a random thought on the Denerii that occurred to me just this very moment:

"Perhaps their Ether-based magic should work like Faith instead of Abstraction, with Ether-strength replacing what their Faith score would be.  It'll help emphasize the difference between song and night.  Hmmm."

By all means give your races color and varied stat maxes, just back em off a bit.

One 10 or one 9 is usually more than enough to differentiate them from other folks. And since these are all "races of men", then you don't want to get too wacky. Besides, you have to leave room on our tiny little scale for all the other critters that'll populate the world.

Let's look at a BW Elf for example. It is not uncommon to see an Elf with 32 stat points divided up like this: Per B6 Wi B6 | Ag B6 Sp B6 Po B4 Fo B4. (If you haven't actually sat down and burned an elf yet, I recommend it.) Without benefit of insane stat maxes, we already have a character that feels different in his core numbers. Elves get a 9 max Perception and that's it -- this is the only asset they have that is truly more exceptional than any one else. The source material pretty clearly states that they were no stronger, faster, tougher (and certainly not more willful!) than men or dwarves -- at least not at their core. 3000 yr old elves are a different story. Now Elves come to this point via the Stat chart i built for them and via their LPs. You indicated you want to use one stat chart (which is great!), so you just need to more heavily favor the LPs or give out straight up stat bonuses (+1 Mental point, +2 Physical points, etc) via traits during character burning.

Suggested Stat Max/Mins:
Avalir: Perception B9
Vetal: 8s
Tarrax: Forte B9 / Spd B6
Khan: Power B9 / (and perhaps a weakness)
Deneri: Per + Will of B9 / All physical at B5 (by dropping this below starting max and forcing all physical roots to 2 (rather than 3), you are severely encouraging the life of the mind!)

Craving: This sounds very good. Oddly enough, I have been working on a mechanic very similar to what you describe! I am going to post it's mechanics later this week. I'll be sure to give you credit for inspiration/co-authorship.

Is there a penalty for taking Craving too far? I ask because "doubling" craving at any time is going to get right out whacky. Perhaps +2 Craving for the Blood Magic Tr?

The other traits are good:

You do have Avalir and Khan with the Tough trait. Why do the delicate Avalir have to encroach on the Khan turf?

The "decrease Superficial tolerance by 1" is a heavy weakness, but perhaps it is appropriate. This alone can balance out a lot of the bonuses you've give the Av.

Skin like Steel (Scaley Skin) is a rockin trait. Very useful, very powerful. Will create a distinct feel for these guys in play.

Let Frail be reflected in the stat maxes. Don't allow the passing of points between pools just yet.


Let's talk about magic again:
Av have Songs -- each spell is a separate skill with it's own exponent and ability. How does abstraction work into this.

Deneri have Sorcery -- The skill is a master key to unlock a potentially unlimited set of abilities. Deneri cast with Will + Ether or Sorcery + Ether (I vote for the latter) and are sorely limited by their Forte max. (Perhaps they can divide Ether dice between casting and resisting). Do Deneri have set spells or is it all abstraction?


That said, I really really like the Deneri. I think they are your most original creation and that they have a lot of potential. (and I can't help but see them as bat-men. If I had my druthers -- and I do not -- I would combine Av and Deneri to make a weird ether sucking, gliding, pale and frail manbat race. ::sigh:: so cool!)

good job, i smell pdf publication...

-L

Statistics:  Hmm.  I like your stat mins as stated and was somewhat toying with something along those lines.  Not sure what a weakness for Khans would be.  Per and Will both max at B7?

Craving: I'm still toying with the notion.  And yes, there should be some punishments for going too far... I'm just not exactly sure what the punishments should be.  Perhaps die penalties for going without the craving?  Something like this:

Craving at B5: -1D to all actions when denied at least one dose a day

And you're right that doubling could get very, very wacky.  Maybe +3.

Traits:  Avalir are weak (lower Superficial) but still hardy (higher Mortal).  Khan are just plain hardy (higher superficial, and Mortal rounds up).  I think they'd different enough to not encroach, especially with the smaller superficial.

Songs - Avalir have song-magic.  Lower-cased s.  They have a single Training Skill with the skill Singing as its root, that they can use like a Great Spider uses Web-Wyrding.  And they learn Abstractions as melodies and harmonies.  It's color, really.  And it's all Abstraction.

Deneri - If I go with the original method, it's also all Abstraction.  But with Avalir having Abstraction as well (and I don't want to give them Elf-like Songs), in retrospect this feels too close, mechanically.  Which is why I'm seriously thinking of re-casting it to use the Faith mechanics - in this scenario, Deneri would call upon the Ether to have it to what they want, using the Ether's power in the place of a Faith score.

This also removes Tax from the Deneri's racial magic, which is something that didn't sit right with me anyway - they're frail beings, and I wanted their manipulation of the ether to not threaten their frail-ity.

I'll admit, I'm really tempted to pdf this in the long run.  I'm glad to have your tacit approval on that idea.  :)  Yay for the idea of mini-supplements!

Brass tacks, brass tacks, brass tacks! This is why i stressed doing lists rather than descriptions. All your beautiful prose distracts me!
;)

Av magic: Sing skill + Will (as Sorcery) to create Abstractions. How are facets/earned learned? Do they start with distilled spells/songs. (Need to come up with another name for their songs so old man designer doesn't keep getting confused.)

Den magic: Either Will/Skill + Ether or Ether (as Faith?). Hrm, being solely dependent on the elements for your power sounds a little too arbitrary. How about a rated attribute (like Faith/Grief/Hate) called Night.

Bonuses/penalties apply to the rolls:
Twilight +1D
Night +2D
Midnight +3D
Sunrise --
Day -2D
Midday -3D

Casting from great height: +1D
Casting underground: -1D

If the Deneri get night magic outside of the Wheel of Magic, would you still keep the Night facet?

Are you going to get fired from your job for posting all this?
;)

Work:  Heck, 90% of Fastlane was written at my day job.  I think they're okay with it.  ;)  Well, they wouldn't be if they knew, but I've managed to keep my dayjob productivity high enough to get all 4s and 5s on my last assessment.

Av Magic:  Instead of a Song, it's an "Aria."  There ya go.  Sing skill + Will to create abstractions.  Facets are taught as individual melodies through oral tradition; the Aria ties the melodies together and creates something greater than the sum of its parts.  (So yeah, singing "Fire" by itself is just a pretty song...)  In my opinion, they can't Distill - no "radio edits" of their songs.

Den Magic - Being dependent on the elements isn't all that arbitrary when you know exactly how the elements are.  It's not like "daytime vs. nighttime" is difficult to predict.  Now if their ratings were based on, y'know, weather patterns, that'd be arbitrary.  I think I am going to go with Deneri Night Magic as an extension of Faith.

And yes, I'd still keep the Night facet in any event.  Deneri racial magic is just a different expression of the element, just like all the other racial magics are an extension of their element.

Quote from: Lxndr
Den Magic - Being dependent on the elements isn't all that arbitrary when you know exactly how the elements are.  It's not like "daytime vs. nighttime" is difficult to predict.  Now if their ratings were based on, y'know, weather patterns, that'd be arbitrary.  I think I am going to go with Deneri Night Magic as an extension of Faith.

And yes, I'd still keep the Night facet in any event.  Deneri racial magic is just a different expression of the element, just like all the other racial magics are an extension of their element.

Ok, my last quibble with non-attribute/skill-based magic is do you care that individuals would not be more powerful than one another? Power/ability would simply depend on where you live and what time it is. Advancement and practice would be color it seems.

Right.  For the Denerii, it's not advancement and practice, it's simply a fact of life.  Something to take for granted, in other words, something anyone can do.  Which I like - it's just household magic, more or less.

If a Deneri want to do something that requires study and advancement, something where his skill and ability is more important, he studies Sorcery like everyone else (remember, basic non-Abstraction sorcery can be learned by any of the Mannish races - and I'm wanting to make sure all these various racial magics don't eschew the choice of Sorcery - Elven racial magic takes the risk of Craving, Avalir can't Distill their abstractions, and now Deneri can't ever become better).  

But yeah, all Deneri can manipulate the Ether, just like all humans can walk, all Vetal can swim, and all Avalir children can fly.  It gives them a quirky and mysterious quality, I think, that I like very much.  Your comment has helped the whole idea grow on me.

that's cool.

Then what you need to do is set some firm numbers for dice available at any given time. And some faith-like obstacles for what they can do with it (by way of example).

One application I might apply is to allow the Deneri to add ambient Ether dice to their SKILLS when testing. This would definitely apply to household and practical magic (everything they do is magical!)

just a thought.

The way I figure Ether with skills, they can FoRK it in much like Astrology can FoRK in.  With the concomittant risk of failure as well, if the "Ether" die goes wrong.  :)  That is, if I'm remembering Astrology right, as I don't have the books in front of me.

Pure brainstorming on hard numbers: I want pure daylight at sea level to be B2.  Underground in daylight is B1, high-up (mountains) in daylight is B3 and high up (airships) is more like B4.  Twilight adds 1 to these numbers, and nighttime adds 2.  After "airships" we get to orbital layers, which'll take a little bit more time to figure out, since after a certain point the differences between day and night don't matter so much.

But with the numbers we got, a sea-level Denerii at night has B4 for Ether, which roughly is the same as the "average" Faith for a starting character.  That feels about right to me.  I'll do some Obstacles for Faith stuff when I get home and can see the Faith rules, for guidance.

Orbital Layers are +1 for night, +0 for day, no twilight:

Low Earth Orbit:  B5
Medium Earth Orbit: B6
Geosynchronous Earth Orbit: B7
Lunar Orbit: B8

And then, past Lunar Orbit, you have Deep Space (B10), which is not affected by Day vs. Night at all.  It's just always B10.

Instead of "airship" distance in the first post, we'll call it "Suborbital."

And instead of "Night Magic", Denerii can command "Ethermancy."  And the fact that every Denerii can do this is one more reason why everyone else is Suspicious of them.  :)

Now to work out Rage, and how Khannish magic can/will interact with it.

So it's occurred to me that there could be exactly one way for a Deneri to improve their Ether abilities.  I thought it over, and I decided I'll allow it, so Luke, there is now a general "improvement" a Deneri can make over time.  

Specifically, I'm ruling that Deneri can use an Epiphany on their Ether... and then get the same dice at either Gray (or possibly, eventually, White).  The Ether surrounding them is the same, but their control over it is better.

(Also, Ether is a naturally occurring element, and can be commanded - spells or natural magickal effects can temporarily or permanently change the Ether in a region, usually through Taxing or Enhancing.)

---------------------

* I think when Craving reaches ten, a Vetal cannot control himself and has to be "put down."  He is no longer playable as a character, unless/until something happens to reduce the Craving.  Normally, it's easier to just put the Vetal out of his misery.

* Rage and the Khannish racial magic are connected.  I'm thinking a set of "Special Skills" similar to Dwarven Crafts out of the main book, whose root is Rage and which allow Khans to work like physical adepts.  Open-ended, many of these mimic other skills...  (Boxing, Brawling, Climbing, Throwing, some weapon skills, Sleight of Hand, Stealth) and others increase physical abilities (Leaping, Running).

---------------------

I am still working on Craving Obs, sample Ether Obs, and exactly on how Rage works (as well as expanding Craving).  I've said it before and I've said it again - Rage is meant to be cleansing, not twisted.  But it's still dangerous, and a Khan that's reached 10 in Rage has completely given himself over to his Id.

Very very nice.

I like the Rage ideas -- you and I seem to be living in the same head. I've been toying with some more emotional attributes lately and we're not too far apart.

Perhaps Rage could take the place of Steel? At the least it should heavily modify it.

Using the skill-root system easier on you. No need to build a whole new system!

One thing to (always) consider is advancement. How does Rage go up? Is it conditional like Grief or test-based like Faith?


Hatred (which it closely mimics) is conditional. It also acts as the root for skills -- in fact, i've been playtesting it lately, and it doesn't come into effect nearly enough. I want to broaden the scope and reach of it.


Epiphanied Ethermancy sounds peachy. The "skill" should be a flat training that "all" Deneri learn. Spending artha can temporarily or permanently shade shift the ability.


Max Craving is perfectly fine. It is a goal to work toward, and it takes a lot of elbow grease (and willing player participation) to get there.

-L

Hmmm.  Yeah, Rage and Steel do seem to be in a perfect position to influence one another.  In fact, that makes determining starting Rage easy - starting Rage is equal to starting Steel.  (Rage won't directly influence Steel, but the fact that you have it means you'll probably answer "Yes" to more Steel-raising questions...)

My current thought is that Rage improves whenever someone tests it or its related skills, but only failures count (sort of like Perception in reverse).  But that doesn't seem like enough.  Perhaps it should be a mix of tests and conditions?

It's nigh-impossible to reach Max craving without drinking Mannish blood (an Ob 10 condition).  So any Vetal who does it as a player is definitely asking for it.

Okay, so what's left?  More specifically, what more should I complete before I walk into character creation on the 24th?  (the "elemental forms" aren't important, as I'm not going to let a player start with one at this time)

* Finish Rage for the Khans
* Do Obstacles for Ether magic
* Figure out if Craving affects actions, and if so how; also do Obs for Craving tests for purposes of advancement
* Write the Gliding skill, so the Avalir can glide
* Figure out at least a few blood-magick-spells
* Figure out how the Tarrax craft-magic works

Hrm.

unfortunately, that all sounds like gravy to me. It's stuff you can simply explain to your players at the time of burning.

What I think you are missing is your cultural micro-sets for each race. Ya need Born LPs and stuff afore you can git started in this cold, cold world.

Let's do lifepaths!

-L

I'm all for LPs, and these guys definitely should get some for their subcultures, but generally speaking, they don't need Borns in-and-of themselves.

They're mostly villagers and peasants and city-born and nobles, just like humans.  So they're Born Peasant, Born Villager, City Born, and Noble Born.  (And Slaves, and Son of a Gun, I suppose)  At least, that's the plan I've been working with from step one.

They definitely have their own special LPs (Vetal in particular are going to have one that roughly approximates "rehab").  But they're born into the same cold world as their human neighbors next door.

ok, my mistake.

what lifepaths do you envision?

-L

Well, now that the weekend is over.  My ideas on lifepaths:

* Some sort of Avaliran "paratroopers" wing-using fighting corps (which, now that I think of it, is almost entirely like Soldier except they've learned the Gliding skill).  Plus at least one training package where they can pick up their Aria Training Skill.

* Some Vetal live underwater, so some lifepaths regarding their submarine cultures might make sense.  Also, Vetal-related blood-magick (and at least one "rehab" lifepath)

* Although a lot of Tarrax live underground, there's not that much in the way of separate Tarrax culture.  They have to get to the surface to eat and whatnot, so... once I come up with their racial magic, perhaps a set of "Tarrax crafter" LPs.

* Denerii are good in space, but the knowledge of how to GET there has pretty much been lost, and does require tech.  So no cultural paths there.  Hrm.

* Khans also mostly integrate themselves.  Still, likely some Khannish "harness the Rage" LPs, once I get more details there.

Really, the additional LPs I want to make aren't really racially-oriented, apart from a few that I pointed out up there.  Cultural lines aren't really drawn along racial lines in Hazaril, at least until you get to the weirdo non-Mannish cultures.  On the other hand, there are some Mannish cultures that do things differently - in the long run, I at least want a complete set of "Party" LPs for the pseudo-neo-socialist magocracy (which is set up similarly to the USSR - the Party would replace the "Noble" LPs for that part of the world).

In fact, I'm wondering how necessary additional LPs are to the start of the game now, since most of my players probably won't be going into the strange ways, and the few that do, we can whip up LPs on the fly.  Y'know?

Food for thought.  LPs will definitely be written before publication.

Well, I always feel better if I have some notes to point to rather than coming up with something abitrarily while under pressure.

Anyway, I was also thinking, do you want to offer any unique Special Traits? Stuff that is either only available in your world, or even only available to each race? These traits are the optional ones that players can spend trait points on to purchase if they so desire.

-L

For Vetal, I have three traits in mind.

* Single Birth - 1 point

Single-born Vetal are pitied, but not reviled, by other Vetal - they are incredibly rare, as nearly all Vetal births are in pairs or higher.  A single-born Vetal never had the experience of a twinlink, and has had to spend his whole life living in his head.  In-game, this means other Vetal are just as Inscrutable to them as they are to the other races.

* Triplet - 1 point (?)

The character has a twinlink with a third Vetal.  To be a quadruplet, it's an extra 2 points.  A quintuplet, an extra 3, and so on.  And by that point, I feel sorry for your mom.

* Phantom Twin - 1 point

The Vetal has lost his twin.  His mind still occasionally reaches out, however, because like losing any limb the Vetal gets phantom pains and the like.  Unlike a phantom arm or the like, however, the Phantom Twin can occasionally link with objects, or people, giving the Vetal a brief, vision-like flash of insight.

A Vetal may learn how to use this - the Phantom Twin skill has roots in Perception/Will.  But even then, the GM may still have it go off without warning.

For Avalir, there's the obvious:

* Crippled/Missing Wings - 1 point

The Avalir cannot glide or leap as others do - he is permanently grounded.

I've got no definite ideas for the rest as of yet.  Any suggestions?

good start. See if you can come up with an option or two for each race.

What about spells? Any special skills you need to solidfy before players begin pawing over your hard work?

I'd like to figure out Gliding.  It feels like an Agility-root skill, but I'm not sure what the Obstacles would be.  Hrm.

I want it to be the SAME skill for "human using a hangglider" and "Avalir using his wings ('cause the assumption, see, is that an Avalir's wings works, in practice, the same as a hang-glider).

Obstacles should be fairly simple. First, ask yourself what every Avilir can do with very little risk of failure. That would be your Ob 1. So maybe, Glide during a sunny day with a slight wind: Ob1. Then add Obstacles to that: Gusting Wind: +1 Ob. Dark: +2 Ob. Rain: +2 Ob. Storm: +4 Ob. No wind: +2 Ob.

Reading through Under a Serpent Sun has redoubled my efforts to want to see this thing through to publication (even if as "just" a free PDF).  Which means a lot more work than just planning for one campaign, but a lot of good, clean, wholesome work  :)

My current draft of the Five Races of Hazaril, just so y'all can see them.  Remember that they use the same Lifepaths as Man, but only get half the Trait Points (rounded down).

(Also, I'm now wondering/worrying whether I should just go with the "standard" CB for my first BW game.  Give me more time to work on this setting without the deadline of "game starting tomorrow" going on.  I think I'm going to put the choice to my players.

I do plan to keep working on this either way, though.  Hell, in terms of pure setting information I have something ike 30,000 words written on the setting, not even including the posts made here.)

Denerii
-----------
1. Albino - Being creatures of the night, the Deneri are not accustomed to the fires of the sun.  They are at +1 Ob for all activities in bright light, and -1D for all activities in direct sunlight (cumulative).
2. Frail - The Deneri can never go above B6 in their physical attributes, and may not START above B5.  Both mental attributes may reach B9, however.  Subtract an additional die from their Health.
3. Starchildren - Deneri can survive unaided in the unfriendly ether beyond the sky.  In addition, being in the ether revitalizes them - do not count the years for certain LPs against aging, and count all other LPs at half.  Finally, they always know the position of the stars, giving them a perfect internal clock, as well as a bonus die to call on for Astrology.
4. Anosmia - For whatever reason, the Deneri cannot smell or taste anything.
5. Night-Eyes - The Deneri can see even in pitchest blackness, but are forever blind to colors.
6. Second Sight - Deneri have the Second Sight, as per the Trait, only they are accustomed to it - they do not take an obstacle penalty for performing physical actions while using it.
7. Ethermancy - Deneri learn how to use the Ether about the same time they learn how to talk - it is a very predictable medium, and one that they all can use.  It works similar to Faith - see the expanded Ethermancy rules elsewhere.
8. Suspicious - This works both ways - Deneri are naturally suspicious of everything, and everyone else suspects the Deneri.  Can be called upon for Stealthy tests.

Avalir
-----------
1. Arias - The racial magic of the Avalir shows up in songs called Arias.  These are learned like Abstractions, and used through a Training Skill that's rooted in Singing.  They cannot be distilled.
2. Wings - Avalir fly when they are children, but lose that ability as they grow older.  Using their wings, they may still leap great distances, plus they can learn how to use their wings to glide.
3. Hollow Bones - Avalir are easy to break, but hard to put down.  Reduce their Superficial Wound score by 1, and increase their Mortal Wound score by 1 as well.  They also weigh less.
4. Eagle Eyes - Reduce all vision/distance penalties by one.  In addition, an Avalir's mind is very sharp - their perception can reach B9.
5. Perfect Pitch - Avalir can use this call-on trait for Singing, Mimicry, Music, etc.  They can always remember a voice and can recognize conversations over distances/noise.
6. Beautiful - Avalir are pretty, and coveted by the other races, and are eternally young.
7. Vain - Unfortunately, Avalir know they're pretty and coveted, and often act it.  Even when they don't, others think they do.

Note:  Avalir men are generally dominant, and women submissive.

Vetal
-----------
1. Borne of Water - Vetal can move as easily in the water as on land, and can breathe water.  Switching from water to air takes time as expelling water from the lungs isn't easy (going from air to water is instantaneous).
2. Special Diet - Vetal do not have the proper enzymes to digest meat and get incredibly sick if they even try.
3. Sanguine - Vetal can perform blood magic (requiring the blood of different animals), and simply drinking blood keeps them young.
4. Craving - The other side of Sanguine, blood is addictive to Vetal (the more so because it makes them feel powerful), and the blood of the other Five Races being the strongest.
5. Twinlink* - Vetal are almost always born in pairs (and most of those pairs are opposite in gender).  These twins always share a mindlink - they know where they are across distances, can send thought and images, and feel each other's pain.
6. Lifeline - Vetal are strongly linked to life energy (blood and sap), and can sense it around them its the most general sense.  With training, they can even learn to manipulate their own life energy to communicate in a sort of Morse Code.  Call on for certain forms of Perception, and for medical skills.
7. Inscrutable - Really, it's just a personality trait.  Vetal can see the flows of life around them, and have a direct, constant peek into someone else's head.  Add that to their lifespan, and it's natural that they're a bit difficult to comprehend.

*Note:  Traits will be written for an elf with a dead twin, as well as elfs who were born in triplicate or more.

Tarrax
-----------
1. Sight of the Bat - Tarrax can sense their surroundings perfectly clearly in the dark, by right of their over-developed ears - anything that makes a sound, the dwarf can hear.  They also have the eyes of a bat - very poorly developed; all vision penalties are doubled.
2. Like a Rock - Tarrax have dense bodies - they can reach Forte of B9, but their Speed may not go above B6.  Mental attributes are 8s.  They have the same speed multipliers as standard BW Dwarves.  In addition, their skin is tough - subtract 1 from any damage inflicted on them: I,M, or S.
3. Sinks like a Stone - Tarrax do not float - they are much, much denser than water and will always sink to the bottom.  Fortunately for them, they can hold their breath a long time (um, need BW drowning rules?)
4. Rock of Ages - Tarrax will not die of old age, but unlike Avalir, will show it.  They still age per the standard human aging table.  They are also very patient, and generally stoic, and sleep longer at night (assume a human requires six, the Tarrax require 8).
5. Unerring Compass - Tarrax know the lines of the Earth, and can always determine which way North lies.
6. Earthsculpting - Tarrax can move through natural soil and rock half as quickly as they can walk on the surface (never faster).  They may choose to leave a tunnel behind them if they halve their time again, or may close it behind them.
7. Racial Magic - Something craft-related.  Specifics TBD, but generally speaking its their items/buildings that are imbued, not themselves.  NOT the same as Dwarven Crafts.

*Note:  Tarrax men are traditionally craftsmen, and their women warriors.  A Tarrax warrior male is a rare sight.

Khan
------------------
1. Forged in Flame - Khannish bodies are strong and large, the tallest of the five races - Power can reach B10, and increase the Speed exponent by 1 for the purposes of calculating distance moved.  In addition, they are tough, like steel - Mortal Wounds round up, and add 1 to the Superficial Wounds score.
2. Wildfire - Khannish bodies are quick - round up when calculating Reflexes.  They are also hyperactive and impulsive, and may call on this trait to add a die to perform the first action that pops into their heads.
3. Hungry Blaze - Khans are eternally hungry, fueling the machine that is their body.  They also sleep less - generally requiring no more than 4 hours a night.
4. Burning Eyes - Khannish eyes can see beyond what human eyes can, glimpsing the fire that burns within all things.
5. Blowing Smoke - Khannish noses are very sensitive, able to discern one individual from another by scent alone, and track as well as a wolfhound.  This is basically verbatim from "Wolf's Snout" of the Great Wolves.
6. Rage - The fire that defines the Khans is insidious, and burns inside them, occasionally overflowing in Rage.  Rules TBD
7. Racial Magic - At first I was thinking some sort of physical adept type thing, but a recent thread at burningwheel.org is now making me seriously consider tantric magic.  Bah.  Rules TBD

hi Lx,

Don't back off now! These need to be playtested. I would sit down with your players and say, "These are your choices." I wouldn't give them a choice otherwise.

Also, what LPs carry Gliding, Aria Training, Blood Magic?, Lifeline Training, Earthsculpting (needs a rating), Tarrax Magic (got to at least come up with an idea!) (perhaps Spirit Summoning to bind earth spirits to their creations and give them special qualities?).

Go with Physical Magic for the Khan it fits and Tantra will fit into it. (Think all enhancing animas).

Go go go! You've got to playtest it sometime; toss yourself in the fire!
-Luke

Earthsculpting just is.  No skill necessary.

As for the rest... I'm working on it!  Eventually, I'll have the Aerial Navy Sub-setting ready and rearing to go.

True, Tantra can just be one more way of accessing physical magic.

Thanks for the brief pep talk.  I'mready to go for tomorrow, apart from a few details.

I really recommend giving Earthsculpting a rating. There is no reason it should come down to an arbitrary decision by the GM or wheedling on the part of the player.

Perhaps base it on Power? or Will?

pep-talk is my middle initial, or something.
-Luke

What would the rating be used for?  That's what I'm wondering about.

It's "half walking speed through natural rock/soil, or quarter that if leaving a tunnel behind."  Where would a rating come into play?

Maybe it should be Speed based then.

Let the roll determine the quality of the "sculpture" or the distance travelled. Set a time for tests, say 5 min per test? Extra successes reduce by 10% each if applied to Working Quickly.

-Luke

Sounds like it should be a Training to me.

but that's just me.

It's definitely not a training, tae.  It's something all Tarrax learn, just like all races learn how to walk, et cetera.  It's just something they can DO, period - a natural ability.  It's just meant to be movement through loose soil and natural rock - it can't affect brick or stone walls, or solid stone.  Just natural rock and soil, like a gopher or prairie dog burrowing.  That's not skill, it's just an ability they all know - Earth just MOVES from them.

Anyway, I'm not sure why it'd be a skill, or even require a roll at all.  Just a movement value, which I've already given it.  What am I missing?

Ah, then it's definitely a Trait. Just as the Flying Trait gives Demons special movement rates through the air, so shall your Earthsculpting will give the Tarrax special movement rates through earth.