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Archive => Indie Game Design => Topic started by: Paul Czege on November 21, 2001, 11:18:00 AM



Title: The World, the Flesh, and the Devil has need of you
Post by: Paul Czege on November 21, 2001, 11:18:00 AM
Some of you are aware I'm planning to put The World, the Flesh, and the Devil into pamphlet format for distribution at GenCon. Basically, I'm going to write it up with more and better examples, and use the back for a Forge testimonial.

And one of the things I want for it are black and white graphics that represent World, Flesh, and Devil.

Beyond the pamphlet, one way I'm thinking of using the graphics is to put up a .pdf page of them that people could print and glue to blank wooden cubes or dice to make WFD dice, since I have the impression that creating custom dice has deterred people from actually trying out the system. So if I'm going to use the graphics for both the pamphlet and for gluing onto dice I'm thinking I need either electronically created vector-based graphics that I can scale to different sizes, or artwork that I could scan at different resolutions. And I think they should be black and white, with no greyscale. Am I making any wrongheaded assumptions so far?

For Flesh, I have a very good idea of what I want. I'm thinking it should be a combination of the WinZip icon and Jim Dine's Blue Clamp. If you haven't seen Blue Clamp at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, you definitely should. It's everything that Flesh is in The World, the Flesh, and the Devil. It's energy and love, the complexity and scale of human emotion, the power of the human body, and the pain of stress and injury and acid-reflux. It's an awesome piece of artwork. That's a real blue metal C-clamp clenching the heart in the middle of the painting. I'm thinking the icon for Flesh should have a much larger clamp clenching a heart, like the WinZip icon clenches the file cabinet.

For World, I have an idea as well. I'm thinking it should be a gear-shaped map, representing causality, the environment, and objects. But I'm less wedded to the concept than I am to what I want for Flesh.

And for Devil, I really only know what I don't want.  I definitely do not want a pentagram or a devil face or horns. What do you think would be a good representation of the Devil? The Devil is alienation, materialism, objectification, and fear. This is a main reason I'm writing here, for input on the Devil icon. What do you think would be good?

And beyond looking for suggestions for the World and Devil graphics, the other reason I'm writing is to see if there's anyone with a combination of skill and enthusiasm who's inspired to do some icons and get a credit in the rules?

Thanks,

Paul


Title: The World, the Flesh, and the Devil has need of you
Post by: Ben Morgan on November 21, 2001, 01:29:00 PM
I saw the poster, wish they had a bigger pic of it.

I'll come up with something for you. Illustrator okay (vector-based)?

For World for The Devil, I'll have to think about 'em.



Title: The World, the Flesh, and the Devil has need of you
Post by: Ben Morgan on November 21, 2001, 01:31:00 PM
I saw the poster, wish they had a bigger pic of it.

I'll come up with something for you. Illustrator okay (vector-based)?

For World for The Devil, I'll have to think about 'em.



Title: The World, the Flesh, and the Devil has need of you
Post by: Paul Czege on November 21, 2001, 04:51:00 PM
Hey Ben...very cool! I'm sending you an email.

This page has a better Blue Clamp image, but it still doesn't do justice to the actual piece. The texture of the paint and depth of color it is really amazing in person. It almost looks like it's pulsing when you see it.

Anyone else have thoughts on the Devil and World graphics?

Paul


Title: The World, the Flesh, and the Devil has need of you
Post by: Blake Hutchins on November 21, 2001, 06:17:00 PM
For some odd reason, the Devil icon that comes to mind is a broken mirror.  I'll try to come up with some other ideas as well.

For the World, some variation on a Door...?  Hmmm.  Takes some more thought.  Good idea, Paul.  This is interesting.

Best,

Blake


Title: The World, the Flesh, and the Devil has need of you
Post by: Matt Machell on November 22, 2001, 01:17:00 AM
Hey Paul,

if you get a chance to, check out the Vertigo Tarot. It's full of Dave McKean artwork that could inspire all sorts of World, Flesh and Devil dice image concepts. The Devil image is particularly cool.

If I have time I'll do a couple of images for you to.


Matt


Title: The World, the Flesh, and the Devil has need of you
Post by: contracycle on November 22, 2001, 02:09:00 AM
For Devil, how about a knot of chains.


Title: The World, the Flesh, and the Devil has need of you
Post by: contracycle on November 22, 2001, 02:36:00 AM
Not exactly icons, but stuff you might find appropriate in text art:

http://www.giger.com/Biomechanoids/fan7.htm (bottom right)http://www.giger.com/Biomechanoids/fan8.htm (top right)

http://www.giger.com/mainflash.htm

Its difficult to identify an aesthetic theme, as your page outlines mechanics only, pretty much.



Title: The World, the Flesh, and the Devil has need of you
Post by: Paul Czege on November 25, 2001, 07:11:00 PM
Hey,

Matt, I would absolutely love to see images you might create...that any of you might create. I've personally always liked "variations on a theme" projects. At a minimum I need three images, one each for World, Flesh, and Devil, but anything you guys come up with beyond that gives me options for maybe watermarking images behind the text on the pamphlet or using them in other ways in conjunction with the text.

I actually own the Vertigo Tarot, and the Devil image is disappointing to me actually. It's basically the character from the comic book and the beach chair representing his abdication of the responsibility of running hell.

Gareth, I liked the Giger fan art. The alien looking thing with the pole is cool, but the "Devil" in WFD isn't really an entity, so I liked the chrysalis/embryo one the best. It kind of captures the essence of being alienated and withdrawn as a result of psychological oppression that I like for "Devil".

Blake, chains are cool, and maybe a good element for the image. Right now I'm thinking I'm looking for a juxtaposition of items like the heart+clamp thing for Flesh. I've had email with a couple of people about both World and Devil concepts, so I thought I might post bits of that as potential inspiration for anyone else who's thinking about the icons:

For World, what I was thinking at first was basically a gear shape with a map on its surface. A variant idea I had is the world as a pocket watch as depicted on the cover of Richard Dawkins' book, The Blind Watchmaker. There's a good scan of the cover at Amazon.com.

But now I'm thinking the world as pocket watch idea is probably too complicated for an icon that will print nicely at a small size, and actually it's such a trite concept that I'm not so interested in it.

So I have two somewhat related concepts for the World icon:

1) A gear-shaped plot of ground shown in perspective, a yard essentially, with a small house on it and the tiny figure of a man on the porch. The house would need to have a timeless quality to it, so as not to link the game's setting to any specific time period.

2) A simple looking villa with a very distinct gear shape to its walls, shown in perspective so the gear-ness of it is exposed.

Essentially what I'm looking for is the hint of mechanical function juxtaposed with a representation of environment. Despite all this, I'm still very excited by the concept of a cool gear-shaped map.

And for the Devil, I can't seem to shake the image of an ancient Roman looking coin, or two coins, with that bead set just in from the edge. And on the coin,rather than a full-face or profile of a face, there's a man's head three-quarters turned away from the viewer, with a noticible twisting to the neck. Perhaps a chain could be worked into that somehow?

Whaddya think?

Paul




Title: The World, the Flesh, and the Devil has need of you
Post by: Matt Machell on November 26, 2001, 06:33:00 AM
Haven't had time to put an image together yet, but I had an idea for a devil image: Somewhere between The Scream and a Japanese Noh mask shattering.

Matt


Title: The World, the Flesh, and the Devil has need of you
Post by: xiombarg on December 09, 2001, 03:14:00 AM
To put in a quick 25 cents, I know you guys are tending toward the more complicated, but you may want to take a peek at www.symbols.com, which has a lot of symbols linked by concept. I certainly think simple, iconic symbols would work better for putting on a die.

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[ This Message was edited by: xiombarg on 2001-12-09 06:15 ]


Title: The World, the Flesh, and the Devil has need of you
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 09, 2001, 01:58:00 PM
I agree with Xiombarg. Beginning with Paul's clamp reference, most (not all) of the proposed symbols have to be explained, or pondered in a kind of "hmmm" Guggenheim way. Perhaps because I'm a grumpy old person, I don't think that works well for dice purposes, or even for graphics/RPG purposes in general.

Also, TWTFATD uses its three iconic terms in ways that differ greatly from the usual uses ... the Devil, for instance, is denial and alienation, not trauma, sin, threat, worldly pleasures, or anything similar. Coming up for symbols for these things isn't easy - and adding layers based on profound associations seems to me to add confusion. Seems to me that the most effective symbols would be immediately and obviously related to the concepts at hand, and not require further processing or appreciating in order to see how they would relate.

Best,
Ron