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General Forge Forums => Publishing => Topic started by: Zak Arntson on December 07, 2001, 02:38:00 PM

Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Zak Arntson on December 07, 2001, 02:38:00 PM
In another thread (http://indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=972&forum=4&4), Ron Edwards sez,

Quote
The common plan of releasing supplements which are both (a) setting details and (b) metaplot continuance does NOT, ultimately, serve a given RPG well in terms of long-term sales. What it does do is MAYBE get your core book reordered from stores for about a year. That's a lot of "if's" to rely upon for success, and failure to meet one of those "if's" can cost you many thousands of dollars. And even this picture is changing.

So my question to Ron (and everyone else, of course) is What, in your opinion, serves a commercial RPG in the long-term?

I would hazard that Metaplot & Setting combined seem to help White Wolf's sales. And maybe Deadlands (but I haven't read their books ... do they combine Metaplot with Setting supplements?)

Something to note: Some Wizards high-up (Ryan Dancey?) said that TSR didn't do so hot (profit-wise) on their supplemental lines (Planescape, Greyhawk, Dark Sun, etc.), but rather their core rulebooks were the big money-makers.  Something that probably didn't hurt their decision to go d20 and OGL.

And here's my current opinion: An RPG shouldn't need a Metaplot unless it's tied to the Premise, in which case you should provide the gist of the Metaplot (if not the whole thing) up front. Which leads to Metaplot not being something that's doled out from one supplement to the next. If you absolutely have to provide some Metaplot, then make sure the supplements & adventures are usable without using it.

_________________
Zak
zak@mimir.net
Harlekin-Maus Games

[ This Message was edited by: Zak Arntson on 2001-12-07 15:05 ]
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Nathan on December 07, 2001, 03:03:00 PM
And another question to this could be, "Could a publisher do a metaplot correctly?"

I figure that supplements and a changing world are one of the best ways to keep a game fresh -- especially a game tied with one specific setting. I could be wrong - in fact, I hope I am.... Deadlands, tied to one setting, can get PLAYED out. You can explore everywhere, defeat a bunch of stuff, and then get kindah bored. Therefore, what do you do? Pick up a new supplement with a more detailed new area, character classes, magic, items, monsters, and whatever.

This mentality is the same in the computer game world. buy Baldur's Gate, you play, you beat it, you get tired, and want more... Then you get the expansion set. Of course, computer games have very short life cycles. We don't see this so much in rpgs, but maybe it is becoming a feature of the industry - games have life cycles.

I figure another way around it would be to provide ADD-ONs, sort of like buying a car and getting a choice on extras that you could add. With an RPG, these extras might be special dice, books with optional stuff, and so on. I really don't know.... Maybe a viable way is to provide a quality of material that is ranged - but is simply not required.

This is a great question.. I want to hear what others have to say..

Thanks,
Nathan
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Le Joueur on December 07, 2001, 06:43:00 PM
QuoteNathan wrote:

I figure another way around it would be to provide ADD-ONs, sort of like buying a car and getting a choice on extras that you could add. With an RPG, these extras might be special dice, books with optional stuff, and so on. I really don't know.... Maybe a viable way is to provide a quality of material that is ranged - but is simply not required.
For Scattershot we faced the same question.  From my work on the retail end of the gaming industry it was clear that any game system that does not produce new material regularly 'loses its front row seat' to purchasers.  I rejected 'meta-plot' and modules as the way to go once I realized that far flung future products would only likely have interest with those already 'in your camp' and little draw on new customers.

I also rejected future editions.  This is one of the reasons Scattershot is receiving such a long design and production phase; when its done, I want it to be done, no more 45th editions and such.  What is left that permits a steady release schedule that is geared towards drawing in new customers?  I think Nathan is close, but special items tend to suffer the same problem as modules.  (Anyone remember the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: 2nd edition guide to Illusionists?  That sold like a rock.)

What then?  Well, for our lot, Scattershot is a general system.  The whole system supports magic, superpowers, advanced technology and the whole host of other genre-specific abilities.  Even early on we realized that we would have to separate out the various 'basic' genres to make the books small enough to sell.  Further, I separated Scattershot's mechanical complexity into three 'layers' so that consumers could play as detailed as they wished easily.  What did we come up with for the product line?

'Mini-genres.'

Taking a popular show or series or book or whatever, we could whip up a smaller book that gave the Scattershot slice of needed 'genre mechanics,' as well as only the 'first layer' of the regular mechanics.  We are packaging them explicitly to appeal to first-time players.  Eventually we would like to not only emulate mini-genres, but actually license products into our line.  Had we the system, we would have attempted a license for Goosebumps (the ground breaking young adult, horror genre); not only would it have given us access to an untapped market, the imprint alone would have made virtually every bookstore in the country order our game, good or bad (and that's where the actual money is, in retail).

Better yet, kids who played Scattershot presents: Goosebumps and liked it would likely want to try Scattershot presents: Gothic a 'core' book containing both the additional two 'layers' of mechanics and a discussion of how to emulate other members of the horror genre.  Not only that, but it would have extensive descriptions of how to blend things in from the other 11 Scattershot 'core' books for things like 'horror with superpowers' and the like.  This could lead to 'crossover' sales of the whole line without advertising.

The best part about the structure is that since the 'first layer' of mechanics will be static, new product can be brought out inexpensively (not as cheaply as OGL d20 stuff, but that seems like cheating the small publishers) and quickly.  This allows better positioning in times like the Harry Potter rush.

Finally, the narrowness of the mini-genres allows us to keep making them indefinitely without repeating material, while never needing to do much development on our core books (like they anticipate with the Player's Handbook for Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition).  Inexpensively produced products also shield us somewhat against one-time bombs (but a series of such would be a sign).

That's what we're working on.  How's it sound?

Fang Langford
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Nathan on December 08, 2001, 02:26:00 AM
Wow, Fang...

Great way to approach it. In a way, your approach sounds similar to GURPS. It seems to me that many recent GURPS products have included the GURPS Lite system in the back so that anyone could pick it up and play it, especially in licensed settings such as GURPS Myth and GURPS Discworld. What is the strength of this approach is that it presents new material that is solid and familiar to current fans but interesting and possibly a draw to new fans.

But this works for a generic system -- what about a rpg with one setting - ala Orkworld?

While we know Orkworld is a one shot "piece of f'ing art", what if it was one of our goals to produce supplements for it? This is where it gets difficult -- At the start, Orkworld has the potential of being bought by billions of people. A supplement though only deals to the x number of folks who bought Orkworld. It does not have the same potential of sale.

I think the metaplot/supplement idea in RPGs is related a lot to the way things have been done in the past -- but it has been strengthened by the CCG movement. CCGs are great products because they encourage players to buy more and more and more. They both add on to the game, provide new strategies/rules, and keep money coming in. In that way, looking at a line like Deadlands, it is easy to look at the other supplements as simply booster packs to the game.

And in reality, Deadlands has progressed to a point where new sourcebooks are really clawing for fresh material. I mean, they released Back East: North and Back East: South sourcebooks.... two of the worst supplement names ever. Boring and probably unnecessary... *sigh*

Well, it's late and I believe I am done rambling.

Afterthought: Would an rpg work where a new edition of the same book was released each year? Consider it - like a model of a car. You have the 1999 Ford Explorer, 2000 Ford Explorer, and so on and on. Each year, the rules get modified, expanded, clarified, fixed -- each year, new features show up in the game - tossing out old features that don't make sense but keeping much of the familiar stuff.... I don't know - but it would be a strange way for an rpg to be published...

Hmmmmm...

Night all,
Nathan
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Le Joueur on December 08, 2001, 06:49:00 PM
QuoteNathan wrote:
Wow, Fang...

Great way to approach it.
Thanks!

QuoteIn a way, your approach sounds similar to GURPS. It seems to me that many recent GURPS products have included the GURPS Lite system in the back so that anyone could pick it up and play it, especially in licensed settings such as GURPS Myth and GURPS Discworld. What is the strength of this approach is that it presents new material that is solid and familiar to current fans but interesting and possibly a draw to new fans.
Damn!  (I haven't been looking at GURPS lately.)  I guess this means the big boys think so too.  (Rats!)  Well, I still got a few other tricks up my sleeve....

QuoteBut this works for a generic system -- what about a rpg with one setting - ala Orkworld?

While we know Orkworld is a one shot "piece of f'ing art", what if it was one of our goals to produce supplements for it?
You know, if you read Wick's articles on magic, you might understand why Orkworld is a little piece of magic that can't be duplicated.

Otherwise, I can point out that if you want something to have supplements, you pretty much have to design it that way.  If a product is a 'piece of art,' I am highly dubious that it could ever be expanded upon.  It is probably just the perfect amount of 'put stuff in and then leave the rest to your imagination.'  A sequel, no matter how good, will just ruin it.  So for Orkworld, based on your reaction to it (I haven't seen it), I wouldn't want that job.

QuoteAnd in reality, Deadlands has progressed to a point where new sourcebooks are really clawing for fresh material.
Case in point for what I am saying.  Unless you made it that way from the beginning (or it was terribly incomplete for starters), there isn't much hope to expand on greatness.

QuoteAfterthought: Would an rpg work where a new edition of the same book was released each year? Consider it - like a model of a car. You have the 1999 Ford Explorer, 2000 Ford Explorer, and so on and on.
You mean like Windows 3.0, Windows 98, Windows 2000, and Windows ME?  Unless you can create some fairly significant improvements each year, you're going to 'burn out' your audience pretty quickly.  (And then comes product backlash; "I can't play with you guys, I only know Nathan 2.0."  "Yeah, I hate those compatibility problems; hey wanna play D & D?"

Fang Langford
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Joe Murphy (Broin) on December 08, 2001, 09:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2001-12-08 02:26, Nathan wrote:
[snip]
Afterthought: Would an rpg work where a new edition of the same book was released each year? Consider it - like a model of a car. You have the 1999 Ford Explorer, 2000 Ford Explorer, and so on and on. Each year, the rules get modified, expanded, clarified, fixed -- each year, new features show up in the game - tossing out old features that don't make sense but keeping much of the familiar stuff.... I don't know - but it would be a strange way for an rpg to be published...


I can think of a few games that would have to include a metaplot, really. Something like Torg, where the first book shows a reality war from Earth's perspective, the second book shows the magic rules from the enemy's perspective, a later one shows a post-apocalyptic background, etc.

Or something like... the rise of civilisation. Caveman to Bronze Age to Renaissance to Nano-age. The first book would have, say, more simple social interaction, later books would have more tech rules...

You could even have the books describe a non-Earth world. Proto-magic based on 4 elements running to modern 47-element magic, etc.

But I can't think of a game where anyone would really *want* to pick up new rules etc. Backwards-compatability would also be a problem.

Joe.
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: JSDiamond on December 10, 2001, 01:28:00 PM
Zak, speaking strictly as an indie, to imitate the big boys is suicide.  The survival and growth of the game relies on something more (what I'm not sure), -but as an indie it definitely isn't a large 'payables to printer, shipping & distro' column in our ledgers.

And don't even get me started on d20.  

We as indies need to take a different path.  I have become numb with the silly attitude that we cannot compete with the so-called 'legit' publisher like WW, WotC and others.  We can.  But the applecart was nuked over a decade ago and we need to do something different.  Our success (money, quality, fun, or however you measure it) relies more upon our direct connection with the people playing our games.  The distro is a dinosaur in my opinion and the retailer (not online) nearly is. After that, I admit not knowing which way leads to the promised land.  But I am willing to try and find it.  And if I do I'll post the map.    

Jeff

Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Zak Arntson on December 10, 2001, 02:36:00 PM
Quote
And don't even get me started on d20.  

I'd like to hear your opinion, but maybe in a different thread or private email?

Quote
We as indies need to take a different path.  I have become numb with the silly attitude that we cannot compete with the so-called 'legit' publisher like WW, WotC and others.

So then you'd say that there's two different tracks for a successful RPG?  One for established companies and one for us indies?

I agree that we can compete, but only on a small scale. And we shouldn't delude ourselves that our game will be the next BIG THING.

I do remember buying White Wolf's Vampire 1st Ed. before ANY hype. The store owner said, "Yeah, I've heard it's a good read, but a lousy game. Nobody else is picking the thing up, so I'll give you a deal." (or something like that). But this discussion isn't about the next big thing, so I'm getting off-topic.

Was White Wolf's success due to a "right" product line? I'd guess it has something to do with it, but it was also in the right place at the right time (goth and/or powergamers = big untapped gamer audience, it turned out)

So, what do y'all think successful methods of releasing product are?  Corebook + Metaplot sourcebooks? Multiple corebooks?  Sorcerer-style corebook w/ how-to supplements?
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 10, 2001, 03:05:00 PM
Hello,

We are really discussing what "success" is. As I have stated before, this term is not a shared, single concept across role-playing publishing. Zak asks, "What serves a role-playing game best in the long term," and my only response can be, "For what?"

If we are talking about continued business success for the company, even that is not well-defined. Adept Press is in the black; that, to me, means it's successful. However, in absolute terms, its profit margins wouldn't pay to empty a Hasbro exec's wastepaper basket - not even the glimmerings of success to someone else's use of the term.

All that said, which casts the entire discussion into darkness and confusion, I see only one small pinpoint of light remaining. That is the "continued sale of core books."

Not, note, a huge and overwhelming landslide sale of core books. Just their sale. If a few get ordered per unit time, and if, every time that happens, they sell within a month or three (I'd put a quarter as the ideal meaningful unit, although two-quarters is more realistic) ... in other words, if your game is being bought according to its demand, and you can roll out copies to meet that demand, then all is well.

Any other promotional or publishing effort relative to that game is valuable insofar as it aids this phenomenon. It is not valuable if it, for instance, distracts retailers from the fact that your core book is not selling. This is called "the supplement treadmill" by Ryan Dancey, most accurately. It can sustain a company for an additional year, maybe two, but it will eventually backfire if the plain old core books are not in demand.

The industry myth states that ongoing publication of supplements will establish core-book reliability. This myth is demonstrably false; it exists because it is perpetuated by those who stand to profit from you believing it.

Best,
Ron
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Zak Arntson on December 10, 2001, 03:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2001-12-10 15:05, Ron Edwards wrote:
We are really discussing what "success" is.

If we are talking about continued business success for the company, even that is not well-defined.

I'm talking about continued existence and (at least marginal) profitability of a company. Even if the profits solely keep the business running.

Quote
All that said, which casts the entire discussion into darkness and confusion, I see only one small pinpoint of light remaining. That is the "continued sale of core books."
 ... snip ...

So my question would be, then, is there another business model beyond "continued sale of core books" that works? If I were to start an RPG company, what approach to a product-line would be in my best interest?

It seems that core books are the only things that sell in quantity. Yet, how do you keep core book sales going?

Would it be a profitable approach to release quality supplements?  And that would encourage people to check out the supplement, and but it and the core book?  Or is that the big fallacy?
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 10, 2001, 04:01:00 PM
Hi Zak,

That's indeed the fallacy. The treadmill tactic essentially makes the continuing core book sales carry the weight of BOTH their own production AND the production of the supplements.

But maybe we should back up a little. I think the core-book sales as the priority is a fine thing. After all, that is the game, and selling the game is (or seems to me to be) the whole point.

OK, then your question is solid: how to keep those core books out there and selling? The hell of it is that the answer has two tiers.

A) The end-use customers actually have to want the thing to some appreciable extent (duh).
B) The industry itself has to be curried and soothed into getting those books ordered at all.

If I may say so myself, (A) isn't such a problem for Adept Press. (B) is much harder. Most retailers' orders and reorders priorities operate on a much faster "cycle" than the time it takes to deem whether an RPG is popular (or semi/niche popular, which is appropriate for most RPGs).

No one really knows a solid answer to solving the (B) problem, and the current (or chronic) disarray of the distributor/retailer organization isn't helping.

My solution is a matter of record - it consists of several tactics, the most important of which are (1) keep production costs way down without sacrificing quality, (2) maintain solid and rewarding contact with end-use customers, and (3) provide direct-sale outlet on-line as a backup or parallel means of distribution. A great deal of this combination relies on having sole proprietorship as well; otherwise all three are very hard to sustain as a unit.

I can't say I've managed to provide the absolute 100% guarantee of the sort of success we're talking about, but I think it's a stronger model than most. A related topic has to do with understanding what quantity of sales is deemed successful, and I tend to let the market tell me that, instead of setting galaxy-spanning expectations and then blaming the market for failing to fulfil them.

Best,
Ron
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Dav on December 12, 2001, 01:12:00 PM
Hey Zak, et al;

The model we over at Apophis use (and please read with all caution) is to model a variant on the treadmill concept.  More a law of dimishing returns with the treadmill.

Once the core book is out there, it will spike quickly (in my experience, most roleplaying uses a fad-based product life-cycle... meaning it will spike quickly in demand, then nearly as quickly taper off).  A supplement should (in my opinion) be used to manage the tapering slope of demand.  

YOU CANNOT STOP IT.  This is the key point.  By producing and marketing a game, you have officially committed yourself to a limited lifetime saleability (I say nothing about playability).  Therefore, once the return on supplements ceases to bring in reorders at some critical point set by your marketing department (I'm kidding, the guy sitting next to you in the basement who has the calculator), you stop producing supplements, even if there are still bringing in marginal profit.

The reason for this is because at the point where core books sales cease (or reach a point that is functionally the same to the company in question), you have saturated your market, and penetrated as deep as you can go.  Stop the game.  Make a new one.

Then, in 3-5 years, revamp, retool, and put in new art, and rerelease the bastard.  (Or, alternatively, have a one year delay then post all the stuff for cheap download on the net)

Ron's points are valid.  Point 1, low cost, high quality is rather intuitive (I don't know anybody who can look at that statement and say anything about it not being right).  And his statement that supplements, in standard fare, must carry cost of both supplement and core book is valid.  And, I agree, ludicrous.

The point is to say that you have X books out there in consumer hands at a given time.  10% of those are used by gamers to game.  40% of those are people who will collect them.  That means 50% of your sales (conservatively, I admit) will be repeat sales for the supplement.  Each supplement will bring in 10% of its sales in new customers.  Ideally, then, each supplement will sell 50-75% as well as the previous supplement, and bring in 5-7.5% in gross of new customers.  Keep in mind, however, that the average customer also becomes more valuable to you (core book + supplement cost).  The average Apophis client is worth $21.24 to Apophis in aggregate averages, and we have 3 books (core book + 1 supplement + 1 novel/supplement [think of it as a minisupplement]) with a retail value of $63.  

Yes, direct sales distribution helps immensely.  Rather than a simple $11.20 (distributor pricing), we earn $28 on the core book.  Of course, costs are about $6 per book (all said and done for art, production, etc. with a small percentage of supplement costs factored in to keep things fair).  Thus, we make about 4 times as much selling direct.

I stray a bit, but let me put it this way:
let's run some numbers on a game:
Cost to produce: $5 (total)
Price (retail/direct): $25   -Profit=$20  
Price (Distributor): $10  -Profit=$5

5000 books in first run.  Cost: $25000

Sell 3500 books (80% distr./20% direct): $28000


Produce 2000 supplement 1 books (cost $3 total: $6000), price $15 (direct)/ $6 (distr.)

Sell 1750 books (80%/20% as before): $8400
Brings 175 new core book sales (80/20): $1400


Produce 1000 supplement 2 books (cost as sup. 1: $3000), price (as sup. 1)

Sell 1000 supplement 2 books (80/20): $4800
Brings 100 supplement 1 sales (80/20): $480
Brings 100 core book sales (80/20): $800

STOP.

Total Income: $43,880
Total Costs: $34,000

Profit: $9,880

Looks nice, but remember, this is spread across a 2-3 year span (depending on speed of production).  And, you still have a bunch of corebooks, and some supplement 1 cluttering your home.  Also, remember the Bite.  Taxes.  Clever accounting can let you keep all of that up there.  Straight-laced, you get about $6000 (depending on personal income).

Either way, you are looking at 2000-4000 per year income (which will not come in a lump at all).  Beer money.  

Not bad.

Anyway, that is how we do it.

Any questions? (Looks out upon barren landscape)

Dav
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Paul Czege on December 12, 2001, 02:21:00 PM
Dav,

Very interesting. And it makes sense of something that never previously made sense to me, that a game's later supplements are harder for a consumer to find. Intuitively, as a consumer you think a game's earliest supplements would be the hardest to find, snapped up by early adopters, the way the first few Elvis collectible plates in the series are harder to find than the later ones. But in actual experience, it's not true. I can't tell you how many times I walk into an unfamiliar game store and see the Legions of Darkness supplement for Kult, with no sign of the core book or any other supplements. The same is true of some of the early Birthright supplements.

Paul
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: mearls on December 13, 2001, 02:21:00 AM
My answer is this:

THERE IS NO "LONG TERM" IN THE CURRENT RPG MARKET OUTSIDE OF TWO GAMES, D&D AND VAMPIRE.

Many people want you to believe otherwise. A lot of them either chase that dream themselves or have a vested interest in your buying into it.

Allow me to explain.

RPGs should be packaged and produced along the lines of self-contained boardgames. A single book should contain rules necessary for a game session, setting information necessary to a game session, and a clearly defined story arc that gives the GM a skeleton for a campaign that carries the themes and story embedded in the setting and rules forward to its logical conclusion.

Example: Let's say I produce an alternate history RPG set in a world where a band of heroic freedom fighters seeks to topple a communist regime that has taken over the USA. The game rules should cover small unit combats, personal combat, and political interactions between freedom fighter bands and between freedom fighters and uncommited people. The campaign arc should detail rules for scaling up the campaign to cover the following story lines:

* Toppling the commie dictator who runs your home town.
* Uniting the freedom fighters in your home state.
* Toppling the commie dictator who runs your state.
* Uniting citizens on a national level against the commies.
* Tossing out the national commie regime
* Building a post-revolution government.

Note that the book doesn't provide exact detail on this stuff; it's all examples, advice, and mechanics. After all, you want players and GMs to buy the book, not just GMs.

RPGs today try too hard to cover too much. They're ponderous, 200+ page beasts that try to do too much and end up doing nothing at all. Face it, while a GM can in theory do ANYTHING with an RPG, most don't. Most try to extract the core adventures encoded into a setting and go from there.

That's the genius of D&D. It's extremely simple to figure out what the game is all about, and the systems built into support that game's basic idea while remaining extensible enough to support all types of adventures or campaign styles.

The problem with the RPG industry as a money-making enterprise is that very few publishers have figured out that RPGs don't work too well as trashy, serialized fiction.

RPGs should be no more than 128 pages long. Anything more is often superfluous. UNKNOWN ARMIES is probably the only game I've bought in the past four years that felt like FULL of useful information.

Deep settings and continuing metaplots are the death of a game. As soon as you begin to define events and your game world, you erect walls that cut off future developments. Supplements should always revolve around a core of new mechanics that increase player options or expand the scope of play. Supplements should encourage play, not reading, as an active player base is a far better mechanism for recruiting new players. Who gets people to play a game, the running a weekly game who's looking for players or the guy who read your supplements on the can, chats about the game on line, but never gives his friends a reason to buy it? The vast majority of gamers will not buy an RPG unless they plan on playing the game.

All metaplot does is add layer upon layer of cruft that alienates everyone outside of your hardcore fanbase. As the amount of trivia and background info pile up, it becomes harder and harder for the newcomer to easily pick up the setting. If you want to produce readers rather than players, publish novels with the game's logo on their cover.

- Mearls

Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Mike Holmes on December 13, 2001, 02:48:00 PM
Quote
The problem with the RPG industry as a money-making enterprise is that very few publishers have figured out that RPGs don't work too well as trashy, serialized fiction.

But what about Sorcerer? Oh, you mean supplement-wise, not Premise-wise.  :wink:

What explains Vampire then?

Mike
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 13, 2001, 03:20:00 PM
Mike asked about Vampire. I shall paraphrase: "If metaplot-driven supplements are so bad for business, why is Vampire so successful?"

Let's clarify a couple of things.

1) White Wolf nearly went bankrupt in the late 1990s, exactly on schedule given their substantial starting capital. It is incorrect to assume that their publishing strategy was itself the successful motor for their current, continued existence.

2) WW currently makes their Vampire money on new releases, essentially by publishing new games (Hunter, Kindred of the Orient, etc). In other words, by following a core book strategy. By shifting to this strategy, they survived a VERY near brush with death.

3) WW's initial success with Vampire is a repeat of D&D's success in the late 1970s - it happened to correspond to a teen/college subculture. Owning the game and one's clanbook (for one's character) was "gear," like owning the ankh jewelry and dying one's hair dead black. This phase lasted about two years.

4) That period of success from the retailer's standpoint (look, weird kids we don't know, walking in looking for the game!) put WW material into the permanent-order status, much like Rifts, GURPS, D&D, and Call of Cthulhu. This is hard to explain in the absence of my upcoming essay (slated for January) - what I'm saying is that there are factors between manufacturer and end-user that keep the books on the shelves.

In conclusion, I don't think that Vampire offers a counter-example to Mike Mearls' excellent, salient, and pointed post.

Best,
Ron

P.S. Sorcerer consists of three books: Sorcerer, Sorcerer and Sword, and The Sorcerer's Soul. That's all there is, there is no more to the game itself. However, I plan to continue publishing support material in the form of smaller items, in the under-$10 range, both on the website and through stores. This stuff is really "supplemental" in the dictionary, not industry, definition of the word.
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Mike Holmes on December 13, 2001, 04:20:00 PM
OK, first my jab at you Ron was in reference to your penchant for trashy serial literature (detectives, Conan, etc) and how you're game supposedly caters to the form. Get it? Never mind.

Anyhow, I knew all that stuff you wrote, I was just trying to make myself an easy mark so that we can keep Mearls around more. Jeeze! Ruin a perfectly good ploy.

Actually, to heck with him. The last thing we need around here is another Mike. Right, Sullivan, Gentry, et al?

Mike
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: mearls on December 13, 2001, 10:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2001-12-13 14:48, Mike Holmes wrote:
Quote

What explains Vampire then?


Good question. In some ways, I think Vampire succeeds despite the metaplot. We've seen three editions of the game in the past 8 years, a sign that at times core rulebook sales have dropped below acceptable levels. Obviously, I don't have sales numbers in front of me, but conventional wisdom in traditional RPG publishing is to push a new edition as soon as the core book starts to wither.

A more important factor to look at is the rise of the metaplot as common publishing device. I'd place it around 1990, when the first generation of designers who grew up gaming began to do work. Perhaps coincidentally, perhaps not, sales of games began to plummet. Personally, I think much of this was fuelled by the release of 2nd edition AD&D. But, more importantly, the next wave of "hot" games, TORG, Shadowrun, all prominently featured metaplot.

All of these games, including Vampire, have followed the same trajectory, strong initial sales followed by a steady drop in supplement and core book purchases. I think much of that is attributable to the metaplot approach. It encourages reading rather than play, which guarantees a stagnant and ultimately dwindling customer base. Active players generate sales. It also forces a game to define an end point. TORG is the classic example of that. The entire game line ends with a fight between NPCs that the PCs get to watch.

*YAWN*

Once you hit that end point, the game's dead. Personally, I don't see why companies produce games with finite lifecycles and then try to promote them as evergreen products.

Vampire has a strong enough central concept to survive despite the metaplot approach. IMHO, this approach continues to thrive because it is highly attractive to the fiction-writing set that currently dominates the "industry." In my experience writing freelance, fiction is far easier to produce than mechanics. A lot of that relates to the tight deadlines used by most companies. Look at all the d20 products that can't get the system right, and that's not even design work, it's simply using a published set of rules. I think the average DM who's been running a game for a few months knows the rules better than 90% of the d20 designers out there. When you have such close deadlines, you don't have time to produce durable rules, so the better option is to create background material.

- Mearls


Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: mearls on December 14, 2001, 12:03:00 AM
Quote
On 2001-12-13 16:20, Mike Holmes wrote:
Actually, to heck with him. The last thing we need around here is another Mike. Right, Sullivan, Gentry, et al?


Heh. You can just call me Mearls. Considering how busy I've been lately (and if Jared and I keep generating new ideas I don't see my workload slowing down any time soon) I probably won't get to post half as much as I'd like, but the forge is now my first stop for RPG discussion.

- Mearls
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Nathan on December 14, 2001, 12:55:00 PM
Wow.. Great discussion...

But I need a clarification. Metaplot doesn't work, but focusing on core book sales does. Therefore, focus on supplements that provide new rules and encourage playing.

What does - "encouraging playing" - mean?

I've heard enough gripes of gamers who bought a game then found out it doesn't contain "all the rules". What is the proper or ideal scenario?

Core Book: GRUNT (World War II soldier fighting game)
  details hand-to-hand and land battle
Supplement 1: AIR FORCE
  details air battle
Supplement 2: THE SEA
  details naval battle

or

Core Book: GRUNT
  details hand-to-hand, land, air, and naval battle
Supplement 1: BY SKY
  adds more planes, guns, etc, etc
Supplement 2: OVER WATER
  adds more ships, guns, etc, etc

Which is the better?

Thanks,
Nathan
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Clinton R. Nixon on December 14, 2001, 01:36:00 PM
In my opinion, the second option. Ron did this with Sorcerer, and it worked - they're the best supplements I've seen. You could easily run a swords and sorcery campaign with just the main book, but Sorcerer & Sword gave you even more details, and even more ideas to use in that sort of campaign.

I like having a little about everything on my plate at first, and then being able to get a book that further details a sub-section if I get interested in it.
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: mearls on December 14, 2001, 01:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2001-12-14 12:55, Nathan wrote:
Wow.. Great discussion...

But I need a clarification. Metaplot doesn't work, but focusing on core book sales does. Therefore, focus on supplements that provide new rules and encourage playing.

What does - "encouraging playing" - mean?

I've heard enough gripes of gamers who bought a game then found out it doesn't contain "all the rules". What is the proper or ideal scenario?

The first step is to define the purpose of the game line. Is it a sandbox that provides a foundation for a wide range of games, or a setting that carries a particular campaign path within it?

A toolbox should follow the D&D or GURPS approach. These are games in the purest sense of the word, simply collections of rules. While it's not obvious, D&D does follow a set of assumptions regarding what the rules should include. The list boils down to:

* Combat
* Magic
* Explorations: what sort of things does a player need in a dungeon? Movement rates, light radius generated by various torches/lanterns, falling damage, weather effects, other environmental factors.
* Monsters
* Magic items
* Toys: Prestige classes, templates, basically tools the give DMs the ability to extend the game in new directions.

With the three basic core books, you can run endless dungeon and wilderness adventures. The key expansion books take that basic game and extend it to areas beyond the scope of the core rules or introduce complete new elements:

Psionics Handbook: Introduces a new style of magic.

Manual of the Planes: Introduces new environments beyond the traditional dungeon/wilderness

Oriental Adventures: Like MotP, creates new venues for adventure.

Other products try to ease a DM's creative burden (adventures) or introduce a setting that DMs can use (Forgotten Realms). If you look at FR, there's a determined effort there to excise the metaplot. One of the design team's mantras in Dragon and other outlets was "we're making the Realms your Realms now." I have no idea if that has translated into more sales, but from my man on the street perch it looks like it has.

The key to producing good supplements is to look at the minivan. No, I haven't gone nuts. Back when the minivan was on the drawing board, the auto company execs were convinced it would be a flop. They did market research that revealed no demand for a minivan. The problem was that the consumer didn't know what a minivan was. It was a completely new concept. So when a focus group was brought into Ford, of course they said they were happy with station wagons. They didn't know they had other options. So out comes the minivan, and the next thing you know it pretty much replaces the station wagon as family transportation.

To answer your question about games not having enough rules, the key there is to produce a tight package with a solid core mechanic that promotes a style of play covered by the rules. For example, back when I used to play OD&D, we never thought to do anything aside from dungeons. The rules talked about dungeons, the game seemed to revolve around them, so that's what we did. The problem today is that game designers, having grown up as game players, want to design a comprehensive package that appeals to a veteran.

A good analogy lies in comic books. Comics used to contain a single, self-contained story. If you picked up Fantastic Four #67, you didn't need to read issues 60 - 66 to understand 67. A little blurb on the first page explained who the heroes were, and there was little to no continuity between issues. Issue 67 was a fight with the skrulls, while in 68 the Submariner might show up in NYC and cause trouble. As comic writers who had been comic fans began writing, we saw the rise of massive, sprawling story lines, in-jokes, an obsession with continuity, all the sorts of things that an obsessed 20 something fan might like but that makes comics frustratingly arcane for a beginner.

RPGs are much the same. We've moved beyond producing games for the casual gamer or non-obsessed hobbyist.

Back in college, I was in a frat. One of the things I noticed was that when we had a BBQ for prospective new members, the more the members of the house cracked in-jokes or discussed minutia of house business or gossip, the harder it was to engage people who weren't familiar with us. There's nothing more socially frustrating than being a newcomer to a large social group with a long history. It takes much longer to become comfortable in such an environment than it does in one where everyone's a newcomer.

Gaming is like that. The "industry" has it in its head that it has to produce 256 page books of setting to launch a successful game. I strongly disagree with that. A strong rules base focussed on a particular style of play or archtypal game plot works much better. Done right, such a game keeps gamers happy because they're too busy exploring the options you've given them. If you insist on adding a rambling, sprawling setting to a game, you're going to frustrate players because there's no way a rules designer can produce options as fast as a world builder can create new venues for adventure.

Promoting Play:

* Menu driven character creation. Choose X, Y, and Z to produce a character. Allow for greater customization further down the character advancement tree. Hard core hobbyist may insist on the ability to play "anything" but the vast majority of gamers are content to take the options presented to them.

* Tools for adventure creation. D&D's challenge rating system and treasure guidelines are beautiful examples of this. This is a biggie. The more barriers to a completed adventure, the less likely a GM takes the game and runs with it. Vague handwaving and How To GM essays are nice, but ideally the system should incorporate rules for creating adventures.

- Mearls

Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 14, 2001, 02:15:00 PM
"When in doubt, always look to Greg Stafford."

Saying that out loud may get you stoned to death in certain circles, but it's a hellacious valuable principle. Note that "look to" does not mean "follow" or "emulate" necessarily. The looking will always yield insight, I have found.

Hero Wars is playable as written (although I always think of it as a combination of the Hero Wars and Narrator's Guide). But every single Hero Wars supplemental book is a "deepener" of some listed aspect of the main book. It literally does not "change the game" in its essence.

The Guide to Glorantha and Anaxial's Roster are respectively a world-book and a critter-book, but they are not necessary. One could play ten sessions using the first two books, then pick up these two ... and one's previous game is not invalidated, yet one's following ten sessions may be much improved, rooted deeper into both geography and myth.

Then you have the two books about Orlanthi culture, Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribes. At first glance, these seem much like clanbooks from Vampire, but that is not the case. Instead, they play a very similar role to the other two supplements I mentioned - they deepen things, give lots more specific options, and serve as player-inspiration. My Hero Wars players LOVE these books.

I think that's a key issue to Mearls' point as well, and it ties into my strategy with Sorcerer. The idea is that a game-book is not the private property of a GM whose job is to channel it to players, but the property (intellectually and creatively speaking) of any participant in the game. Jesse and I had some dialogue about that on the Sorcerer forum a while ago.

Now, all that said, I have to specify that I'm talking about the long-term viability and enjoyment of a game line by its practitioners, and its ability to attract new players and thus customers. Here's the problem: this is a slow process whose motor is actual playing enjoyment. That takes months, even years. Yet retailers and distributors think in terms of periodicals, comics, and modern print-and-shoot bestsellers. Their turnaround time to perceive the "value" of something is, in terms of the use of the product, too short by an order of magnitude.

This is why D&D and Vampire are perceived as the industry's "big successes," because they prompted sales that did accord with retailers' time-sense of the success of games. Even though those waves lasted only a year or two (1977-1979 and 1992-1994 respectively), they are still perceived as "success games" and ordered accordingly, despite frequent evidence to the contrary, and in flat denial of the fact that sales boosts to their line only occur when a revised or new core book is offered.

Can this be reconciled? Can a game line's utility and enjoyment for the users be brought into parallel with profit to manufacturer, which in this day and age means profit to the distributor and retailer?

No one knows.

Best,
Ron
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: GMSkarka on December 14, 2001, 03:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2001-12-14 14:15, Ron Edwards wrote:

This is why D&D and Vampire are perceived as the industry's "big successes," because they prompted sales that did accord with retailers' time-sense of the success of games. Even though those waves lasted only a year or two (1977-1979 and 1992-1994 respectively), they are still perceived as "success games" and ordered accordingly, despite frequent evidence to the contrary, and in flat denial of the fact that sales boosts to their line only occur when a revised or new core book is offered.

Sorry, Ron, but that theory just doesn't jibe with the sales numbers coming out of the distributors that I've spoken with.   Pretty much across the board, sales boosts occur with the release of ANY supplemental product, which usually generate a core-book spike of somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-20% over the previous month's sales level.

Vampire (well, to be fair, the whole WoD, since it's essentially one line) and D&D are considered "evergreen" due the fact that they are produced by the only companies in this industry with aggressive, continual support.

Oh...and your dates are a little bit off as well.  The biggest sales wave for D&D was 1980-1984 (highest penetration into the public consciousness with licensing, etc.) and Vampire's sales wave began in 4th Quarter, 1991 (I was a retailer at the time).

Gareth-Michael Skarka
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 14, 2001, 05:16:00 PM
Hi Gareth (-Michael Skarka),

I have a few points that will clarify.

1) Distributors are always going to pitch what supports their business, which is the constant, periodical-style outflow of supplements. They operate on a comics model and the wrong comics model at that.

Bluntly, I do not trust the distributors' word when it comes to what succeeds from a company's point of view. There is way too much conflict of interest at work.

However, I don't mean to say that they out-and-out LIE, because of the next point ...

2) The word "sales" means a lot of different things in RPG commerce, but almost never "end-user purchase." That's pretty much the only meaning of it that I take seriously when thinking long-term. Those supplements sell in the sense that they move to the warehouses, and in many cases that provides money back to the manufacturer, but it's often the case that they do NOT make back cost-per-unit, but are only profitable if they consistently prompt core-book sales.

I find it very unlikely that the metaplot-based supplements of WW were able to prompt a sale of (say) Mage with every single supplement sale. I submit that this strategy is precisely what turned Mage, ultimately, into an albatross.

Yes, I know there were other factors involved, most notably "what happened to the profit" issues in both cases, TSR and WW alike. But there is no way on this earth that every Mage supplement released could have prompted a 15-20% increase in core book sales - unless we are talking about such shitty sales in the previous month that basically one whole extra book sold in the "supplement" month. THAT I'll accept.

3) I'll give you the 1991 for Vampire; my notion is that the wave began the moment it hit the shelves, and I probably am mistaking its release for when I first saw it.

The D&D wave in sales is more complicated - going by within-tier sales, you are right, because that's when AD&D showed up all over the place. But I submit that end-user sales tapered off fast during that that wave of output, and that if we compare output to end-user sales (which are unknown, in hard numbers), then the "success" wave shows up in the late 70s - when D&D outgrew the hobby, model-airplane store.

Best,
Ron
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Le Joueur on December 14, 2001, 06:49:00 PM
QuoteNathan wrote:

Wow.. Great discussion...
I agree.

QuoteWhat does - "encouraging playing" - mean?

I've heard enough gripes of gamers who bought a game then found out it doesn't contain "all the rules". What is the proper or ideal scenario?

Core Book: GRUNT (World War II soldier fighting game)
  details hand-to-hand and land battle
Supplement 1: AIR FORCE
  details air battle
Supplement 2: THE SEA
  details naval battle

or

Core Book: GRUNT
  details hand-to-hand, land, air, and naval battle
Supplement 1: BY SKY
  adds more planes, guns, etc, etc
Supplement 2: OVER WATER
  adds more ships, guns, etc, etc

Which is the better?
What about something like:

Core Book: GRUNT
  Details hand-to-hand, land, air, and naval battle as well as
  strategy, politics of command, training camps, and sundry
Supplement 1: D-DAY – timed to come out with '...Private Ryan'
  gives just the basics for land, sea, and air – still playable
  adds early European theatre, background on that 'brothers law'
Supplement 2: PEARL HARBOR – timed to come out during movie run
  gives just the basics for land, sea, and air – still playable
  adds setting for Pearl Harbor, timeline, and movie hooks
Supplement ANY: designed to fit in places similar to how people
  get related merchandise, book racks, video racks, and etc
  gives just the basics for land, sea, and air – still playable
  adds scope to the setting and enticement for detailed rules
  without requiring them

The purpose is to be where customers for the 'other product' come looking, on the same shelf if possible.  Licenses might help, but are obviously not necessary.  (Although a good license, like Pokemon or Harry Potter when they were 'on their way up' would have gotten into every store that carried the product, such can be the demand.  Hey, imagine pitching to have a .pdf included on the "director's edition of Top Gun" DVD.)  This way as long as war was popularized, you would have market for your next 'supplement' without creating new rules (even though it wouldn't be the 'usual suspects' down at the gaming store, for them, it'd just have to be darn playable).

As I have always said, 'anything that expands interest in role-playing games can't hurt my sales.'

Fang Langford
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: GMSkarka on December 15, 2001, 12:17:00 PM
A couple of responses:

Bluntly, I do not trust the distributors' word when it comes to what succeeds from a company's point of view. There is way too much conflict of interest at work.

No...no conflict of interest.   The distributors (and by this, I'm talking about the pure game-only distributors, not those that also move comics and the like) recognize that their well-being depends upon the continued health of the publishers.

Trust me on this.  I've worked as a publisher, a distributor and a retailer over the past 14 years.  I've seen all three tiers from the inside.

2) The word "sales" means a lot of different things in RPG commerce, but almost never "end-user purchase."

Actually the sales figures that I was talking about are sales reported by retailers to their distributors, and so on.  It's also backed up by the sampling-method sales reports  provided by retailers and published every month in COMICS AND GAMES RETAILER (a subscription for which is free to anyone working in the industry...and is highly recommended).

I find it very unlikely that the metaplot-based supplements of WW were able to prompt a sale of (say) Mage with every single supplement sale. I submit that this strategy is precisely what turned Mage, ultimately, into an albatross.

Actually, the supplements artificially perpetuated Mage long past it's viability point....it largely failed because it failed to attract the larger number of Vampire and Werewolf players.  Vampire players didn't find it 'sexy' enough, and Werewolf players didn't find it 'ass-kicking' enough.  The problem is that the subject (reality bending to will, etc.) was far too esoteric and intellectual for most WoD fans...and those folks that were into the idea from it's initial announcement were expecting ARS MAGICA made modern, and were sorely dissappointed by the end product.    

But there is no way on this earth that every Mage supplement released could have prompted a 15-20% increase in core book sales - unless we are talking about such shitty sales in the previous month that basically one whole extra book sold in the "supplement" month. THAT I'll accept.

That's pretty much what I'm talking about.   Without supplemental releases, Core Book sales drop off precipitously.  In a month when a supplement is released, you see an accompanying spike in Core sales.  I've even seen this personally...the sales of HONG KONG ACTION THEATRE! was a near-textbook model of drop-offs and supplement-driven spikes.  Conversely, UNDERWORLD, which I consider a better game, both in design and presentation, had high initial sales, but with no supplemental releases, a massive drop-off.   When we released the UNDERWORLD soundtrack CD, even a 'supplemental' product that odd resulted in a brief upswing of sales on the Core Book.

My experience, for what it's worth,

GMS
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 16, 2001, 10:53:00 PM
Hi there,

Let's review what this thread is asking about - specifically, the long-term sales viability of a role-playing game.

Gareth has stated that a 15-20% increase in core book sales occurs with the release of a supplement. If I'm not misreading, Gareth has acknowledged that we are talking about 15-20% of Very Little. And I think ... I think I'm not incorrect to state that his observation does not counter my initial claim: that relying on supplement release to "boost" core book sales, especially using metaplot, is not a reliable tactic.

I think that by the time we are looking at that little burp in sales, per supplement, we've already hit the Deadly Point, in which the core book is not "alive" on its own merits. We're running on what Ryan Dancey calls the treadmill, and in all known cases, it's the Treadmill of Gruesome Game Death.

The question is, how does one generate core book sales without relying on an ongoing string of supplements? This question has two underlying points that are easy to misunderstand:
- That relying on the string of supplements is not an alternative, but a mistake. (GURPS books are not supplements, they are reference texts, by the way.)
- When I say "relying," I mean relying. Nothing is terrible or bad about a supplement per se.

What's my answer? I stated it a few posts above: contact with the user base, high-quality product, low overhead. I'll add the demonstration of the quality of current use to potential customers, which is rare for role-playing games. For Adept Press, my results are so far so good.

Best,
Ron
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Zak Arntson on December 16, 2001, 11:36:00 PM
Quote
- That relying on the string of supplements is not an alternative, but a mistake. (GURPS books are not supplements, they are reference texts, by the way.)

So what is the definition of supplement?

It seems a supplement consists of one or more of the following:
* Expansion of Core Rules
* Setting Information
* Metaplot Guidance
* Discussions on Gaming

And how does a GURPS book fit into this? And none of these keep a game going in the long run? What's the solution? Surely the GURPS answer isn't the only one!

Here's the factors that have driven me, as a consumer, to purchase supplements:
* Expansion of Core Rules
* Setting Information
* Habit (get every book in the game line, because I've been so impressed by the core book)

What does the average (i.e., highest profit-base) consumer tend to buy? And how do you keep them coming?
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Jack Spencer Jr on December 17, 2001, 12:59:00 AM
Zak,

I think that the GURPS books are essentially core books, in that they are the base necessary rules and other material needed to play the game.  GURPS is a little different in that there are several "games," if you follow me.

It's a lot like Chaosium's Worlds of Wonder.  Small wonder since WoW was a generic/universal game like GURPS.  You had the Basic Role Playing pamphlet which gave you the basic, stripped-down rules.  This is similar to the GURPS main book.  Then they had the different "world" books (Superworld, et al) which gave you the rules and material necessary for running a game in either a fantasy game, a super hero game or a space adventure game.  These world books built on the basic rules to make a complete game.  These are like the GURPS sourcebooks.

Furthermore, the GURPS sourcebooks have a second function as just a general reference book.  Say you're running a game set in medievel China.  You're not using GURPS, but a system of your own devising.  Yet, you can still pick up GURP China anyway and use the material to help you with your game.  This makes the GURPS book just like any other book on ancient China you might find in a bookstore or your local library.  Perhaps slightly better for your purposes since you could come up with a way to convert the GURPS stats to your game.  This works for SJG since they've gotten a reputation for putting out a quality piece of work and many will pick up the appropriate GURPS book as, if not as a be-all end-all, then as a good place to start.

(Persoanlly, I find the GURPS book are better as just a good start, but I digress)

Back to the thread at hand, the way to make suppliments sell is to make them needed, like how in the movie Pirates of Silicon Valley Anthony Michael Hall as Bill Gates announced that they need to have people need them to survive shortly before selling DOS to IBM.  

There are several way to make a suppliment needed.  Metaplot is one way, but it apparently is not a good way and is not an especially well liked way.

GURPS uses another way and it seems to work better.

What is another way to make a suppliment needed?

You could put vital rules in a suppliment, but this is also not well liked.

You could have extra rules, like TSR's Complete line (Complete Fighter, Complete Priest, etc)  This one has a more moderate opinion.  Some do not like it because it smacks of just trying to sell as many books as possible to the end user.  Some do like the extra options available.

This is a tough question to answer.  One could site historical example, like the Basic D&D Red & Blue books or even the three book AD&D/D&D3e sets, but these do not in anyway guarentee success.  It's a case of what's good for the goose is not always good for the gander.

But the best way is to somehow make your suppliment needed.

Here's a question, what about house organs? For those unfamiliar with the term, a house organ is a magazine put out by the game publisher (e.g. Wotc's Dragon Magazine,  Games Workshop's White Dwarf, etc.).  Usually these are meant to hawk and support the companies game, but not always.  I have no idea what the number crunching would be as far as cost and time/hassle but a magazine, be it monthly, quarterly, semianually or even anually can make a product seem "alive" in the market sense while not requiring a large volume of material or even especially necessary material.  The beauty of such an item is if you have more than one current game, you can cover all of them with the same periodical.  And when enough material builds up, it can be re-released as a suppliment.

Not a horrible idea.  I think they do that with White Dwarf, too.  But is it a commercially viable one?  That is the real question.

I get the feeling it would be a milage may vary.
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Ian O'Rourke on December 17, 2001, 07:27:00 AM
Quote
On 2001-12-17 00:59, pblock wrote:

Not a horrible idea.  I think they do that with White Dwarf, too.  But is it a commercially viable one?  That is the real question.

I get the feeling it would be a milage may vary.

I think you hit the fanbase problem again - if your fanbase is not big your magazine is not going to increase the fanbase. If your fanbase is big (WotC/WW) then your mag may well survive but your building on the good numbers anyway.

In my experience, though this is a UK perpective, any gaming magazine beyond a fanzine cannot survive in the UK. Numerous people have tried it in numerous models and they don't really survive by any business definition of the word.

Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Anon LeBlanc on December 17, 2001, 10:27:00 AM
He said, what about house organs?

That's what the forge is!  And Ron's WANKING IT!
From the Blank Generation!  Viva BlankReg!

[ This Message was edited by: Anon LeBlanc on 2001-12-17 10:30 ]
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Ron Edwards on December 17, 2001, 11:52:00 AM
With a sidelong glance at Anon, two points.

1) I forgot to mention in my last post that Gareth and I clearly disagree about the "conflict of interest" issue among the tiers of RPG commerce. That's definitely a subject for another thread, but I didn't want to deal with it here by pretending it hadn't come up.

2) The Forge is indeed a mechanism such as this whole thread called for. "How do we promote our games?" "How do we generate a user base for our games?" "How do we provide ongoing contact for the user base?" The entire vision for this site is to provide such a service, at the boundary of design and commerce (or free distribution, your choice).

This can work at the individual as well as group level. I strongly urge anyone who asks the question that defines this thread to consider your website to be your company magazine.

Best,
Ron
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Ian O'Rourke on December 19, 2001, 08:21:00 AM
Quote
On 2001-12-17 11:52, Ron Edwards wrote:

This can work at the individual as well as group level. I strongly urge anyone who asks the question that defines this thread to consider your website to be your company magazine.

An excellent idea. In the UK magazines tended to fail because you could not satisfy enough of the market to make a profit (or in one case enough of a profit) to make it worthwhile. I assume this links into the base market as a whole, as if your maximum readership is small, but the time you cut that down because: you mag does not have adventures in, covers CCG's or has nothing in for the one game I play - you end up with a relatively small readership.

It's all a bit fragmented. And of course, a lot of gamers don't buy a mag because they can get it off the web, so they say, which links into the above.
Title: Successful RPG Line
Post by: Ryan Ary on December 25, 2001, 06:54:00 AM
One way MANY d20 publishers are building a fanbase is simply providing a tremendous volume of web enhancements for their products. In this way, new user's see the free material and (if it any good) become interested in the for sale material.
Clearly, many net prowlers are just scroungers and will never buy. That actually is one possible reason to make the majority of the material available only to paying customers via a code in the product that gives them access to limited access webpages (of course this isn't perfect but magazines get read and never purchased in the point of sale too). In principle, the stuff the web browser can't see might be more enticing than the stuff he or she can. Moreover, the cost saved in not printing material intended for a product anyway may be very much better than that made by a struggling or even marginally sucessful magazine. The key is making sure customers know the website and material is there. Clearly spelling that out for them in the product is important but creating news for traffic sites (like Eric Noah's) is as well.    

my 2p

Ryan