Diceless Combat Resolution

[RPGuru59]

I am designing a storytelling game called SAGE (Story Advanced Game Engine) that uses diceless combat resolution. I use a point based system, allowing the characters to give away points to get things resolved. Yet Resisted actions are of coarse a problem. Would anyone care to discuss the mechanics of diceless combat resolution?

[RPGuru59]

Our points are called Karma points and a player uses them to do anything from pick a lock to open a door. I do not want anything too complicated in my game, thus I plan (only plan) on using nothing but Karma points. I know that some other games use stats and that would include separating the points. But I want it simple.

Yet how do you do this for combat with NPC's is it a barder system, whoever gives away the highest percentage of points wins, or is it skill plus the addition of points?

If anyone knows of a diceless thread here at the forge, do let me know...

[M. J. Young]

Welcome to the Forge, Guru.

I passed up this thread yesterday because 1) I have little experience with diceless games and 2) I wasn't seeing much detail in your initial post on which to build. Your second post seems to have expanded it a bit, and I'd hate to see it go unanswered.

You've got a sort of resource management system here: players are given points, and have to accomplish their goals within the limits of their available point count. There are a lot of questions that should be asked. Here are some that come to mind.

[*]Does every character have the same number of points? Alternatively, is a character point pool fixed by the character's abilities, or determined at random? I can see an argument for saying that a character gets so many points for being this strong, so many for being this smart, et cetera, as it gives some force to the character's stats.[*]Are point pools renewable, and if so how? Can a character earn points above his starting total?[*]Are points perhaps given by the referee at the beginning of a task, in essence saying that he believes the players can complete the task with this many points?[*]Are the points essentially individual or essentially pooled? That is, if each character has ten points, but once I've spent my ten I can do nothing, that's individual; but if each of us has ten points and when I spend my ten Bob can give me his (or similarly spend his so that I succeed at my tasks) that promotes a very different sort of play. Likewise, if the points exist in a pool from which we can all draw, the question is do we have to agree to spend the points or can any one of us do so, or something between these ends?[/list:u]
Regarding how to handle combat, it seems to me that in a resource management system like this in order for it to be at all interesting, there must be options that have different costs. Something like:

[*]Kill the opponent for ten points;[*]Maim the opponent but leave him alive and recovering, possibly to be a threat in the future, for seven points;[*]Bribe the opponent to let you pass, five points;[*]Intimidate the opponent, five points;[*]Avoid the encounter, three points.[/list:u]In this situation, the players would have to assess what it was worth to them, considering the possibility that they might have to return the same way and so face the opponent yet again. This could be complicated further if the players couldn't know all the relative costs. I can imagine a game session going like this:

Code Select Expand

I will either bribe him or kill him. How much will it cost to bribe him?

It will cost seven to bribe him.

That's more than I want to pay to bribe him; he'll expect me to bribe him again. I'll kill him.

Killing him costs you ten points, please deduct them.The point in this exercise is that the player has to define his options as A or B, and then can ask the cost of one of those two options. Then based on that knowledge he must decide whether to take that or take the other, the cost of which is not known to him.

Another possible approach would be in essence a hit-point system. In this case, each adversary would have an unknown point value required to defeat him, plus an unknown point value that he will cost per round that he survives. Now it would go something like this.

Code Select Expand

The monster attacks. It costs you three points to stay alive. What do you do?

I'll attack with seven points.

Seven points does not kill it. It takes another three points for you to stay alive.

I'll attack with another four points.

The creature is dead.
This becomes a resource guessing game: if I spent the eleven points up front, the creature would be dead. The creature might only have required eight points to kill, and it was just unfortunate that I fell one point short. Any expenditure over what is required for the kill depletes my resources unnecessarily; but an undervaluation of the opponent's strength means that I'm going to lose points to its counter-attack. It thus is worth it to me to overspend by an amount not greater than what I would lose to the counter-attack, to prevent that.

There's more you could do with this. It occurs to me that you could allow a player to spend a point to have the initiative, so that he could end the combat sooner and so not suffer added damage; I'm not sure how you would regulate when this is an option, because whether the character is surprised by the creature seems to be entirely within the power of the referee.

Of course, for a particularly gamist approach, you could give the referee the same number of points as the combined pool of the players, and let him play their side. This would have some complications in the fact that the referee obviously knows how much it takes to kill each player character--unless one of these two things is true:1) the players can secretly apportion that at the start of play so that the referee knows the total points for all characters  but not the points for any one; or 2) the referee cannot kill individual characters, but must exhaust the entire point total to kill them all.

There are still a lot of bugs to work out. For example, traps have to cost the referee a lot more than checking for and disarming traps cost the players, and referees have to spend points on obstacles which the players can overcome without a lot of guesswork (since a lock doesn't hurt you, the players should be able to spend the right number of points to beat it).

I hope this helps.

--M. J. Young

[Michael S. Miller]

The Forge's Iago (Fred Hicks) wrote a game called PACE which uses a point-buy system, IIRC. You can also do a search for "pace" with author "iago" to find a number of threads about the game's development and actual play

The Marvel Universe Role-Playing Game, released by Marvel last year, also uses a diceless point-based system. Can't quote the mechanics off the top of my head, though.

[RaconteurX]

You should take a peek at other games which use a resource-allocation method for diceless resolution, especially Nobilis, the Marvel Universe Roleplaying Game and Active Exploits.

[RPGuru59]

Thank you all for your inciteful and inspiring posts, of particular use was Action Exploits and Pace. The reason why I created, or should I say tried to create SAGE was to do away with all the math all the + and -, pretty much everything. Like SHERPA (a reduced FUDGE) SAGE was made to be played in bars, backseats, trails, living rooms, porches, and patios. More a storytelling game than an RPG, even though RPG is its father or grandfather.

Imagine that Karma Points are story points, or plot points, the amount of points you have means how much your character can effect the story. Sometimes the story takes this ability away, by attack poison, fate, etc. That means that your character has less power and potential to effect the story. It can almost be argued, but I wont, that when a character reaches 0 KP- does he become an NPC.?

With this in mind, I took the three characters, decided by their character sheet and fantasy logic (is there such a thing) who was fastest. I then declared the enemy's moves in secret and asked the players to declare their moves for the next 3 rounds in an If-then format. This they did, including how much KP they would use in each round. Whoever hit zero first lost, or is out of the battle. In each round whoever spends the most KP wins, if their action runs in the flow of iniative.

This is what happened, remember this is STG not RPG:

Katy had the most KP's and was fastest, followed by the noctaur (a dark centaur), lastly with the least KP (because he had just used them to acquire a new skill) was Kron-Turai.

Round 1
As if hearing a shot from behind, its legs burst into a full gallop the sword spewing arcs of flame towards the adventurers. The noctaur roared, a strange purple amulet gleaming about its neck. The guardian's eyes reflected the fires of the ethereal blade. The hooves echoed onto the dense stone floor, rushing up and forward, uncaring, eager to slice and burn those that dared come before it. It screamed louder as it neared, taking in the scene, rushing Katy, or the thing that was Katy- seeing it as the larger threat. His other hand clasped in a strange fist, the fingers over the other, almost making a symbol. With a final spring of his hind legs, the noctaur rushed at Katy- yet she was not there.

The moment the creature was upon her, Katy dodged in a way that could only be called inhuman, for that was what it exactly was- inhuman. Moving faster than the guardian could follow she moved to dodge and thrust upward behind him, just under the arm that swung the burning shimmer of a sword. Katy felt the heat and sparks of the magical weapon, making the air glow with power as she moved under and behind the dark warrior.

The noctaur moved in a bursting charge, past Katy. The momentum, the push of the massive body forward did not allow the creature to stop in time. For there waiting was Kron- Turai's intertwining shaft of steel. The weapon pierced the noctaur's body just under where the human torso became a horse. Despite the sudden explosion of blood, the guardian's body continued to move forward toward the druid of the skies, shattering the spear as it beant at the middle. The creature roared in pain and lashed wildly at Kron- Turai while he attempted to get away.

Round 2
Katy's massive frame behind her opponent, she pulled at his horns, arching his head back and clawing for the sword arm. The nails devoured flesh and fur as she grabbed for the weapon, it a whip of heat and fire. Her massive frame seemed to overpower the guardian and he slowed down, the spear still in his side. The scent of kill, the scent of blood, almost seemed too much for her, and this only made her energy stronger- the need to triumph (and possibly feed?) now even more important.

The noctaur suddenly that felt the end had begun, almost knew that he was dealing with something not of this earth, not of this place. Perhaps nature had planned it long ago that this day a werebeast from another world and a druid from another land might defeat it. For that moment there was panic within, a great impulse to get away and to retreat into the darkness. Waiting in the shadows until another better time. The noctaur slashed, Katy's hand just beyond his sword arm, the pain in the side enveloping his entire torso. The blade struck just as Kron- Turai tried to move away from that insane and determined demon spawn. The flames burned armor and a solid thin crisp line sliced at his flesh.

Kron- Turai felt the burning armament slice clean and burn into him. His entire body arching back both in reaction and as a defensive pose. The armor did not burn easily but merely cracked open where the attack struck. The pain severe, making it harder to unsheath his twin daggers and fling them at the beast. Even harder considering Katy had the creature almost mounted and was beginning to grip his throat. So hard to get a clear shot. Seeing a moment open, Kron- Turai let his daggers fly, one richoteting off the noctaur's horn, the other slicing his leg, both clagging on the black floor underneath.

Round 3
His throat open for attack, her strength fed by the luxury of the scent of blood, Katy thrust her claws at the noctaur's neck; slicing until she felt the soft air escape from the windpipe. Massive amounts of blood gushed about, bathing her. This only caused her to dig even deeper into his sides, almost anchoring her hands until she felt ribs collide, even breaking a claw.

The creature took its sword, seeing the world's borders closing into darkness, and slammed it behind him. Burning itself in the process, the blade's flames caught Katy between her left head, shoulder and upper arm, singing and burning. The fur triggered fire, and the were-lioness felt her skin burning wherever there was hairon her body.

Seeing his daggers fly beyond their desired target, Kron- Turai unsheathed two other daggers. Watching his companion in arms nearly shred the enemy, seeing its blood fill the chamber, he looked for another opening in case it may have something unknown to them planned...

His fingers felt cold on the hilts of the daggers...

Round 3.5

Kron-Turai felt searing pain from the wound created by the creatures flaming sword. The pain was so intense he was unable to make his dagger attack effective. He struggled to draw his final two throwing daggers, a motion that generally was executed with practiced smoothness and agility. Summoning his will to defeat the pain he muttered a prayer to Mura in the language of the druids, "Mura ease my pain but for a moment so that my next attack will be true." As if strengthened by the mere thought of the eagle spirit, the pain seemed to fade, momentarily as he seaked an opening to guide his daggers into the beast's flank. When an opening appeared he did not hesitate spinning in a backhanded circle to generate momentum he launched his first dagger at the beast, without waiting to see the result and without breaking his stride he spun again switching the second dagger into his right hand and sending it following the first with all his remaining strength. The whole maneuver was execuded in a split second. After releaseing the second dagger, the pain flared anew and he nearly succumbed to its intensity as he dropped to a knee and struggled to maintain his consciousness. His thoughts went quickly to Luna and her safety, he quickly scanned the area looking for her.
 
Somewhere in the skies, somewhere in the clouds beyond where men reach or even dream, Mura heard a disciple call for aid. So hard to reach him in the darkness that he had brought himself, but alas there was promise there indeed.

With the sudden conviction of the hand of the divine, the two daggers flew from the druid's hands flowing straight and true for but a moment. The noctaur grabbed the first dagger. Yet the second struck perfectly behind, into the flank, just when Katy moved her leg. The dagger stuck there and created a crimson ring of blood, smeared by Katy's furred leg.

She felt the creature shudder its right hand clench in a fist, a hard fist.

The goal attained, the target assured, Kron- Turai sunk in a strange satisfaction suddenly realizing that just beyond there were a flurry of white feathers strewn in blood about the tunnel floor. Each of them heading down the tunnel...

Deeper into the depths...

Furthermore we are experimenting with characters going round by round, allowing them to explore more and describe in greater detail. I am also thinking about declaring relative success or failure during the round and letting the players write their character's action.

I can say that the players and this GM are thoroughly enjoying themselves, without one dice being thrown.

We are at: http://www.playbyweb.com/nature2.php?_b=8432

[simon_hibbs]

I've used playing cards for this kind of thing a few times. A random draw of cards adds a bit of entropy, card management is 'chunkier' that managing an amalgamated pool of points. I suppose you might have the card value add to an ability rating .

Points management systems often work as a supplemental layer on a karma or random roll system. Hero Point/Plot Point systems such as HeroQuest are good examples of diced games with an added points management layer.


Simon Hibbs

[RaconteurX]

A random draw of cards adds a bit of entropy...

For most folks I know, diceless resolution does not mean "substitute some other randomizer for dice", it means "eliminate randomizers entirely". True diceless play is more properly term deterministic: success or failure is predicate upon the combination of character ability and player decision-making without recourse to random elements.

Castle Falkenstein is not a deterministic game. Everway and Pixie Dust Games' forthcoming Zero Movement are hybrids: mostly deterministic, but recognizing that occasional random turns of a card can help resolve situations where there is no clear answer available or add flavor to particular circumstances.

[M. J. Young]

For most folks I know, diceless resolution does not mean "substitute some other randomizer for dice", it means "eliminate randomizers entirely". True diceless play is more properly term deterministic: success or failure is predicate upon the combination of character ability and player decision-making without recourse to random elements.

I'm going to agree with the first part, but disagree with the second.

Diceless is really shorthand for "fortuneless", which means lacking randomizers. However, since there are three distinct methods of resolution, "deterministic" is not a very good word for it.

I'm persuaded that all systems use at least some drama resolution in their design; Erick Wujcik's http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/24/">Dice and Diceless article makes this point, I think (it's been a while since I read it, and as I recall he didn't make the drama/karma distinction in the article, but he did argue quite persuasively that drama resolution was always involved in every game). Drama resolution is not randomized, but it's hardly deterministic--depending on whether credibility is focused on the referee, shifted between the players by some means, or held in common (democratic resolution of contested outcomes), the degree to which outcomes can be unpredictable should not be underestimated.

Karma resolution is certainly much more "deterministic", building as it does on a combination of ability and strategy. It still can be very unpredictable, but that aspect of it comes generally from player tactics, sometimes from unknown factors, and not from fortune.

--M. J. Young

[RaconteurX]

Hey M.J.,

Erick's article does not actually say much of anything, alas; I consider it fairly useless as a reference. You say there are three distinct methods of diceless resolution and only mention two. Care to rectify the omission?

I presume you are referring to resource-allocation, but do not see how that differs from the combination of character ability (types of resource pools possessed and size thereof) and player decision-making (choice of which resources to expend and how many) which forms the core of my definition.

[Lxndr]

The third form of resolution is "Fortune", which uses dice or another sort of randomizer.  Being a diceless game, you're likely not using much (if any) Fortune.

Resource allocation, comparing attributes, and all suchlike fall under Karma.  As best as I can determine, Drama resolution is, if not randomized, still very random - whoever or whatever decides what happens does it through a combination of whim and emotion.

I agree that Erick's article isn't all that useful as a reference (there's a whole thread around here somewhere where I questioned it, and as far as I can remember it ended with "agree to disagree").  But I also agree with MJ that Drama is present in almost any game - any place where a character or GM has to make a mechanical choice that isn't outlined in the rules is a place where Drama lies.

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Alexander, one quick clarification or at least a possible nuance:

As best as I can determine, Drama resolution is, if not randomized, still very random - whoever or whatever decides what happens does it through a combination of whim and emotion.

Drama resolution can be much more formal and organized than this. Check out Universalis, which limits "facts" using a resource, and my Zero at the Bone, which establishes IIEE through a Fortune method, providing a framework for the limits and order of Drama resolution of actions. I also think that Puppetland's "how one says it" provides meaningful constraints on its Drama system.

The real problem for this and similar discussions, as I'm sure most people appreciate, is that the word "random" is often used for very different phenomena. I tend to use Fortune to refer to actual resolution methods during role-playing which rely on consulting physical objects which, for however long, are subject to physics that a person cannot influence easily. Whether that's "random" or not, or whether other methods are "random" or not, can therefore be left as a side issue.

Best,
Ron