Prescience and teleportation: Sorcerers of Arrakis

[erithromycin]

Hmm. Breeding program as an extended ritual is cool, but [sudden intuitive flash, hang on] the object is not to unite the daemon but to provide a vessel capable of dealing with it.

Paul is a sorceror bred to barter with the same daemon that the Bene Gesserit deal with, Ancestral Memory!

It's a parasite/possessor that bestows cover, and, oh dear. We've forgotten something. How the hell do we cope with The Voice? Mind control in Sorceror?

Then there's the pain box. Characters are going to have a minimum will if they're going to face the Gom Jabbar. Or being damn lucky.

So, there's a daemon for the Bene Gesserit and the Kwisatz Haderach, and Alia's age means that, as a possessor, it wins, sort of.

Mentats? It's more cover, I think, and the ritual is the training, and the need is a Lynchian mantra.

Bene Tleilax as possessors/passers is good, especially for ghola, and Navigators, well, somehow Navigators get Travel and, you're right Hint fits better. Maybe some sort of deal with a different part of ancestry? Instinct?

What if that's the actual form? Ancestry? So much of Dune is built around heritage and prophecy, so if they're dealing with Ancestral Memory [Bene Gesserit/Kwisatz Haderach, bestowing Cover in the form of Knowledge and The Voice], Ancestral Intellect [Mentats, bestowing Cover in the form of calculating power], Ancestral Instinct [Navigators, giving them Travel and Hint], and Ancestral Strengths [Bene Tleilax, bestowing Force-y type things].

Throw in something where the GM actually maps out the game in advance [there is already a story, but it's how it happens that makes the game], and players can barter with History and Fate at some ridiculous disadvantage [roleplaying bonuses and massive 'rituals' here] to make things happen in a way that's more to their advantage.

How does that sit?

[Dav]

"Throw in something where the GM actually maps out the game in advance [there is already a story, but it's how it happens that makes the game], and players can barter with History and Fate at some ridiculous disadvantage [roleplaying bonuses and massive 'rituals' here] to make things happen in a way that's more to their advantage."

This sounds great.  I think you have nailed down the corners on this one without too much trouble.

Regarding the Voice, let us look at it as such (and here, Lynch actually gives us a helping hand):  Command allows control over nonhuman creatures (animals).  Those who have not passed the tests of the Bene Gesserit (perhaps an altered "binding" ritual against ancestral memory (ah, the first meme demon type)) are "less than human", and thus, sceceptible to Command as written in the game.

We need to define Humanity in these terms then, which to me would be a mixture of duty (to family, house, sect,etc), knowledge (ah, tie it to Lore as a capping influence if it were to be a minisupplement), and just a hint of compassion.  The true test of Humanity is being capable of balancing the entire sphere of influences to become "functional" (I use this loosely).  Alia definitely fails, while Paul succeeds rather well (for a time).  The epitome of Humanity, then, in Dune would be Chani (to my mind), or perhaps the Princess...

I agree that mentats and some of the more peripheral professions and characters are best described by Cover.

Wow, it WILL work...

Dav

[erithromycin]

I think so too :smile:

Humanity as a form of duty is lovely, and everything else fits too. I'm not sure how to cap it with Lore?

Hang on, I'm going to do this from basics.

Will: Test against this to determine how 'Human' you are. This is the test of the Gom Jabbar! It'll give you something else, possibly, in fact, your humanity score. Aha! Characters will do this, and it'll be kept secret. The first 'daemon' you bind is yourself. [Why do I think that that might spark a mini-supplement on it's own?]

Lore: This is a measure of how well you know yourself. High for Bene Gesserits, Tleilaxu, low for Gholas until they are awakened, low for Navigators [They tend to lose, remember, which is why they live in spice clouds - They're ancestral instinct's need must be continually sated if they are to distract it long enough to make use of its powers. That's one of the big secrets! Navigators who lose become something really icky and bad, but I'm not sure what, this is a Dune aspect I hadn't considered until now, but what do massive amounts of spice actually do to the Human body? I digress, but I'll come back to this too.]
Probably reasonably high for Mentats.

Cover: Does what it always does, but Mentats get an additional one? Or a supplement when doing Mentat-y things, so Duncan would likely be Warrior: 4, Mentat: 3, producing Warrior Mentat: 7 where applicable, like analysing someone's fighting styles. The strength of Mentats with professions, for some are only Mentats, is that they can bring the paired one to bear, and then use the successes to really lay smack down, or negotiate like the devil, or somesuch. Neato.

Force: I'm not even sure it's called that. Anyway, the physical one. Pff. It does what it does.

Humanity: What Dav said, with modifiers above. I think it's what you bargain with FATE and PROPHECY with, with successes/failures changing your score as bindings/banishings.

FATE: What will happen to your line, ie, will produce the Kwisatz Haderach [Atreides], will rule Arrakis [Harkonnen], will survive at all costs [Bene Gesserit], the spice flow must continue [Guild], the empire must remain [Emperor], no house may use nuclear weapons upon another [CHOAM]. There are loads. Duncan Idaho's may well be [See that Paul succeeds]. That might be cool.

PROPHECY: What will happen in the story, ie, what the GM [with the players, or without them, or, indeed, with some involvement particularly in creating an initial relationship map that can be manipulated], ie, in Dune anyway, "all" that happens is:

The Kwisatz Haderach arrives.

This is really starting to get nice.

[Manu]

Wow !!! Kudos guys, it's a far cry from what I had envisioned, but it all sounds intriguing. The whole "pact with History"" thing is great, and I'm reminded of "Sorcerers Crusade" theme of Freewill, Fate and Destiny. (Actually the whole Daemon concept from SC is really inspiring for Parasite/Possessor demons).


I don't have much to contribute, I'm still mulling things over, and I have half a dozen other setting ideas I want to develop (yup Ron, working on Muslim Sci Fi and giant battleships ! )


Has anyone here read the Inquestor Chronicles from Somtow Sucharitkul? Great Dune-like far future, very colorfulbwith many parallels to Sorcerer's issues on Humanity and power.I really recommend it if you liked Dune, and even more so if you hated Dune !! (Ron: hint, hint)



Manu

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Manu,

Thanks for the reference, which sounds like something to check out.

Sorcerer and Sword offers rules for using Destiny in a pretty serious way, which could even override or replace the actual "commanding demons" elements of the game. This thread has convinced me that Dune (or a Dune-like setting) would be very functional using Sorcerer, but I think that 'Sword is the way to go.

The role-playing game which has tried hardest, so far, to generate this sort of SF is Fading Suns. I think it's a qualified success, or a close failure, perhaps, mainly because the concept of "character" in that game is modeled on the White Wolf concept, which in turn is pretty much the AD&D concept. We're talking about characters who grapple with Destiny, not about characters who get to go on missions for those who grapple with Destiny. I've tried to provide some steps in that direction in 'Sword.

Best,
Ron

[erithromycin]

I'm just throwing this on as I wrote it, there might be some things in here that are worth picking over anyway, but the more final forms are at the bottom. I agree with Ron, and I'm going to check out that stuff too. I'm still trying to get my hands on S&S, but hey. Bring on the battleships, I say.

Character creation: All characters are nobles, that is to say that they must first take the test of the Gom Jabbar. You are created as a noble, that is to say that you would look like this:

Stamina:    4 Drugs
Lore:      1
Will:      3
Cover:      4 Harkonnen
Ancestry:   Some points. It is a measure of how many 'useful' ancestors you have. Ancestry is used when you are trading on the familial name.

Then a test to see what your Humanity score is, against the Gom Jabbar. What then is the measure of the Gom Jabbar? It's Will Vs. Stamina. The Mind Vs. The Body. Cunning. Very cunning indeed. Cover is the higher of your Stamina and Will, depending on what kind of a noble you are.

Is it unfair to state that failure simply means that you can't be Bene Gesserit? You already can't be Bene Gesserit if you are male, so perhaps not. You'll be testing against a fixed strength Parasite Daemon, that can, perhaps, spawn a temporary Possessor when you use the voice, and said Possessor works against the opponents Humanity. Negative scores, for they are possible, give the Possessor extra dice. The powers bestowed by a Bene Gesserit Daemon are Cover, and Voice [which is a little Possessor Spawn]. What if you test with Lore against your own Will? Your successes are the level of bonus that you can recieve. Minimums?

Hell, actually, failure still bestows a Cover, but it's one that possesses you. You can attempt to fight it, hell, that'd be cool, but remember that you'd still be fighting death as an Abomination. Worth it for some? The bonuses remain quite low, so they won't get too high.

The Bene Gesserit's Ancestral Memory's Need is to test again and again. The longer you wait to do it, the stronger it gets, or possibly with the amount you use. I think that may well be doable, if hellish. What if that's the Need for all of them, except Fate/Goal/Destiny which Need to be worked towards, or they'll get you.

The use of tests against the Self is very interesting. In fact, I like it a lot, but since I haven't gotten around to getting Schism I don't know how close this is to the way that works. Still, onwards.

Notwithstanding, you can become a Mentat. The effects of your ancestral intellect will vary, but your Humanity will be affected. It bestows upon you the cover Mentat.
In situations where Mentat knowledge is applicable, combining the cover Mentat with your starting cover is allowable. E.g. Warrior 4, Mentat 3, can in some circumstances, generate Warrior Mentat 7.

You are unlikely to be a Navigator, though there is nothing to stop you from doing so. Be aware though, that Ancestral Instinct stretches far further than Ancestral Memory, so is accordingly more powerful.

The Bene Tleilax, I think test Lore against Stamina to change themselves, with successes/failures modifying their Stamina 'permanently'.

Okay, from that we've covered most things. There are, it would seem, no actual daemons, only aspects of the Self and aspects of History.

All right. That works a bit better now, so let's actually turn it into a mechanic.

What tests against what?

The Gom Jabbar is the first test. It is your Will vs. your Stamina. It determines your Humanity.

You test against your Humanity. Or rather, with it. So when you test, let's see. Failures reduce your Humanity, successes, increase it?

Bene Gesserit – Ancestral Memory is a test, with Humanity, of Lore vs. Ancestry. Your successes produce the level of cover that parasite-AM bestows. Failure is the level of cover that a Parasite-AM [Abomination] enjoys. Voice: Keep a point back for use? Or more? Or less? Anyway, it lets you test your Will against theirs, with their Humanity and your Level of Voice mixed in. I think that works. Use a form of Resolve to keep the Abomination at bay. Your Ancestral Memory [your level of extra cover] will test against your Will when you are placed in mortal danger [or situations that could become dangerous]. The Need is to act to the advantage of the Bene Gesserit.  

Bene Tleilax – Ancestral Shape is a test, with Humanity, of Lore vs. Stamina. Failure You get to keep some back as Deceit. That lets you scheme like a bitch, with the aid of your Cover. You sneaky monkey faced freak. The Need is to gather new genetic material.

Mentat – Lore vs. Will, with Humanity on top again. Success bestows the cover Mentat. Keep some back as Predict. It, on top of your appropriate Cover, vs. your opponent's with their Humanity on top again. Add your successes to an action you take against them. When your Ancestral Intellect gives you a big ole' success it'll test against you. The Need is to recite the Mantra.

Navigator – Lore vs. Stamina. What you don't spend on Travel you spend on Hint. Multiple Hints, might be pushing it, but I think it's justifiable. The Need is Spice.

I'm not sure, but I think now it comes down to:

Fate: What's going to happen to you.
Destiny: What's going to happen.
Goal: What you want to happen.

I'm not sure how to handle these entirely, but if they're daemons that you bargain with for extra dice or something, or that bestow bonuses/favours when it's appropriate. Let's see.

Perhaps these could have 'raw' values that are set at the start of the game. They might be hugely important, or far less so, or with values that are set depending on how close or not you are to meeting them as you have stated them or as they have been stated. I think they test against each other.

Aha!

Paul:

Goal: To be a worthy heir to the Atreides
Fate: To be the Kwisatz Haderach
Destiny: To be the father of the God Emperor Leto II.

The stillsuit scene, where Paul puts it on correctly without knowing, is Fate vs. Goal. which resulted in a tie, so his successes in a Cover: Arrakeen Noble roll strengthened both. Does that make sense?

No it doesn't [edit]. What I meant to say is that your Humanity can be positive or negative, or, indeed, balanced. Humanity is duty/selfishness. Selfish characters may succeed, but are less likely to do so than those who work for the good of others. A key part of the Gom Jabbar "A human would wait in the trap to kill the hunter and eliminate a threat to the race." Positive Humanity adds to your rolls, negative humanity adds to your difficulties.

_________________
"I wouldn't be satisfied with a roleplaying  session if I wasn't turned into a turkey or something"

[ This Message was edited by: erithromycin on 2001-12-13 13:33 ]