Question(s) about fine equipment.. again.

[Ingenious]

Greetings, pull up a chair for this one, possibly a sandwich and a drink.. cause you're going to be reading for awhile...

Okay, so I've noticed through playtest duels on the IRC,
that a lowered ATN on a fine greatsword or anything else that can half-sword is deadly enough as-is without considering the half-swording technique yet.

My main question is this: Is the ATN for half-swording also lowered with fine weapons that can be half-sworded? This would make the half-sword ATN a 4...(forgive the ignorance for not searching the forum for the answer)

Is this too much? I mean, it seems like the most god-like weapon of all-time to me.. eclipsing even a fine rapier with the same ATN. Looking at the damage ratings of both: given the same strength for each, and the same number of successes, the half-sworded fine bastard sword is +3 compared to the fine rapier in thrusting. The estoc would be +3, greatsword and longsword would be +2.. and a dopplehander +3 vs a fine rapier. Of course, the +3 for half-swording is against metal armor only right? So when faced with an unarmored opponent, the slate is wiped clean, and damage ratings change. They change so much that while still half-swording, the fine estoc,fine dopplehander, and fine bastard-sword are on the same playing field as a fine rapier.

Yet, a fine rapier costs 20 gold, a fine estoc is 5, a fine bastard sword is 15, and a fine dopplehander is 20. The secondary question now becomes, how come these seemingly superior fine swords don't cost more than a fine rapier? They do the same damage as a fine rapier in a thrust vs an unarmored opponent, but do more vs one that is armored(whenever they are half-sworded, and if an ATN of 4 is used). Overall their DTN's are better, except for the dopplehander, and save for the three weapons that a rapier is better at defending vs a thrust-based attack. This cost vs benefit issue comes up in the question below.

My teriary question is this: Fine full plate. Its cost vs benefit as compared to normal full plate. Fine full plate would have a CP modifier of I have no clue, and normal full plate is -3. Cost differential is 60 gold, and in my character's case a re-arrangement of priorities. Hell, in anyone's case that wants fine full plate. That in itself is insane, the amount of sacrifice needed in order to gain a mere 1 MAYBE 2 CP back. Aside from the fact that you *must* choose social priority A or B in order to afford it, in my character's case he chose priority be, and had to further sacrifice 75% of his starting money to get that very same fine full plate.(I am ignoring the +25% starting income national modifer of Farrenshire as this will not be the case for every character or player out there that wants fine full plate.)
The main gripe of the whole thing being the amount of sacrifice vs the benefit. Does it match up, is it even CLOSE to matching up? That's the other question. (Slap me around a bit if I keep bringing up that question..) All of that sacrifice just to save 1 or 2 CP....

I now end my rant, to go seek a beer and a cigarette. Damn that was alot of typing.
-Ingenious

[Muggins]

Offhand, I would discredit any notion of a high quality piece of equipment making a difference in half-swording. Basically, you are using the weapon like a short heavy spear or pollaxe. Leverage and the edge on the weapon do not come into play. In fact, some really high quality longswords would probably be worse at halfswording, if we assume they are extremely light and possess a keen edge (remember those thick gloves now, boys!- note to GMs on how to surprise a player).

James

[Valamir]

Yet, a fine rapier costs 20 gold, a fine estoc is 5, a fine bastard sword is 15, and a fine dopplehander is 20. The secondary question now becomes, how come these seemingly superior fine swords don't cost more than a fine rapier? They do the same damage as a fine rapier in a thrust vs an unarmored opponent, but do more vs one that is armored(whenever they are half-sworded, and if an ATN of 4 is used). Overall their DTN's are better, except for the dopplehander, and save for the three weapons that a rapier is better at defending vs a thrust-based attack. This cost vs benefit issue comes up in the question below.

This is the difference between a weapon whose primary purpose is social ornamentation and one whose primary purpose is battle field killing.  The rapier was as much (or more) a status symbol as it was a weapon.  Finely made rapiers are delicate, elegant, finely detailed works of art.  A fine dopplehander can still be considered a work of art for those with an appreciation of such things, but if you've ever seen the hilt of an expensive swept hilt rapier you will see why such swords are generally quite expensive.  First, for the amount of find detail work involved, and second because their clientele can afford it.

One could even argue that the clients want to be over charged on a rapier because that way they can be assured that no one of lesser social strata than they could possibly afford a sword as fine as theirs.  The hilt of a gentlemans rapier was as much a calling card announcing to the world how wealthy he was as it was for protection of the hand.  

My teriary question is this: Fine full plate. Its cost vs benefit as compared to normal full plate. Fine full plate would have a CP modifier of I have no clue, and normal full plate is -3. Cost differential is 60 gold, and in my character's case a re-arrangement of priorities. Hell, in anyone's case that wants fine full plate. That in itself is insane, the amount of sacrifice needed in order to gain a mere 1 MAYBE 2 CP back. Aside from the fact that you *must* choose social priority A or B in order to afford it, in my character's case he chose priority be, and had to further sacrifice 75% of his starting money to get that very same fine full plate.(I am ignoring the +25% starting income national modifer of Farrenshire as this will not be the case for every character or player out there that wants fine full plate.)
The main gripe of the whole thing being the amount of sacrifice vs the benefit. Does it match up, is it even CLOSE to matching up? That's the other question. (Slap me around a bit if I keep bringing up that question..) All of that sacrifice just

Ummm, are you aware of the social implications of a full suit of plate mail?  Full plate mail is not something that the average soldier warrior would ever have access to...and especially not fine plate mail.  Fine platemail is the provenance of kings and princes and dukes.  Is your character a king a prince or a duke?  Then what's he doing trying to buy a suit of fair plate mail?  

Do you know the amount of jealousy showing up to a tournament or a battle wearing better armor than your social superiors would engender?  The GM would be well within reason to slam you with many social penalties for such an attempt to show up your betters.  Armor and weapons are not just a collection of stats to determine the best cost to value ratio for.

These are true luxury items designed to show case the wealth and prestige of their owner.  Is a Bentley better than a BMW 5 series...sure...FIVE times better?  Hardly.  So why do so many celebrities waste so much money on a car whose actual value is so much less then the price they paid...because they can.  And by doing so they guarentee that they're driving something the Walmart crowd wouldn't even be allowed to test drive.

The bottom line is that a fine suit of platemail is like a Bentley.  If you have to ask how much it costs...you can't afford it...and you're not supposed to have it.

[Ingenious]

You make a valid point, but let me also state that my character is a viscount. He *is* a noble afterall. (Depending on your nobility heirarchy, this might be above a baron or a duke.. or below it)

I highly doubt however, that a fine full suit would be mostly ornamental. We've already heard the argument of fine full plate being better articulated, etc. That can explain most of the cost, combined with the ornamental engravings, etc etc. Fine full plate is more than just decorative stuff to be worn during parades and shit.

And yes, armor and such are not just a collection of stats.. but when you look closely at it.. something just seems off about the cost vs value ratio.
Whether or not they are luxury, items.. they should protect better than a normal full suit worn by knights.. and they should also allow one to move better in one.

I guess you could say, using your car analogy Val.. that I were buying a Ferrari.. and then complaining about the gas mileage. Though that is a slightly valid comparison; the Ferrari still would go faster, accelerate faster.. and protect you better in a high speed crash. So.. even though the fine full plate costs multiples more than a normal suit(gas mileage).. that should therefore mean that the fine plate waaaay outperforms the standard full suit(goes faster, etc).
That is my complaint.

Muggin's point is countered by saying this: a fine weapon could lower the ATN of either cutting or thrusting. Therefore a longsword, greatsword, etc could be better at thrusting than it is at cutting... and therefore better at half-swording as well, because you are still thrusting when you half-sword.
As you say the bladed edge of the weapon does not come into play, but I would debate you on the leverage issue. A weapon of poor balance would not be as suited to half-swording as one with average balance. If a fine weapon has superior balance, it will make half-swording easier.. or cutting easier, etc etc.

The opposite can therefore be stated that a lowered DTN of a weapon that can half-sword could also lower the DTN for half-swording to 5. Perhaps this is explained via superior balance(faster parries, etc), or a stonger steel.

Perhaps I am being overly analytical again... *shrug*
-Ingenious

[[MKF]Kapten]

There were lots of poor nobles who couldnt afford good armors in the medieval days. The armors of that day was too expensive for the economy, essentially.

An especially fine plate armor would be insanely expensive. It is the kind of stuff kings would indebt themselves for to buy a suit of (remember, medieval times = poor kings). I dont think a social class B character would need to feel obligated to own a suit of fine plate. YMMV of course. I wont tell you what your PC feels :)

[Ingenious]

Well, in ya'lls view fine plate is a status symbol. It might well be for some, but for me it also has to function above and well beyond the normal full suit.

As far as the status symbol goes, I am of minor nobility. A knight whom has just earned his knigthood would not be capable of affording it.
This is fair, and logical. Should there then be another level of 'fine' plate as I had proposed before.. for those kings, princes, etc.. that want better armor than 'fine' plate? This would therefore be most logical when stating that kings and princes would indebt themselves to buy a suit of that quality... But as far as my character goes, if he's a noble.. he can therefore own land.. and should he not also have the right to a full suit?(though, considering he's social B.. perhaps he sold his land to get the starting gold?) *shrug*

But when you look at it, a social priority A character can afford 3 suits of fine plate. This therefore discredits the notion that kings and nobles etc are too poor to buy fine plate.. Also, were you a social priority A character from Otamarluk, you would suddenly discover that you have 500 gold to spend.. Kings and princes are too poor in TROS? Hah.
Kings in the real world might have spent an arm and a leg for a fine suit, but in TROS.. it seems quite common for nobles to be able to afford one.


I really don't care about the benefit side of buying the armor.. but I am a bit concerned about the cost of one. I guess my views are skewed a bit being that my character is a landless noble, and not a landed noble.
I might therefore modify my character.

Arguing for the sake of arguing.
-Ingenious

[Muggins]

Halfswording is most certainly not about balanced weapons! Only a few blows, the murderstrokes or thunderstrokes, in which you use the guard/hilt as a hammer remotely resemble anything resembling a swing. Most of the blows are short, relying on your own weight and strength to gain a place. Halfswording is more of a wrestling match than anything else. You can do the moves with a 5-foot steel bar as effectively as with a sword. The whole name of the game is not to strike and kill the opponent with a thrust, as armour is protection against that (halfswording is a quick way to die unarmoured), but to disarm and incapacitate your opponent so you can finish him off with a dagger, or buy carefully inserting your point and applying full force to it..

The only reason a knight uses a sword for "halfswording", is that against the pesky infantry with their soft flesh, the sharp edge does wonders! Of course, the sword was not a primary weapon for an armoured knight in battle: a lance, a mace or a pollaxe would all be used first.

James

[Valamir]

I really don't care about the benefit side of buying the armor.. but I am a bit concerned about the cost of one. I guess my views are skewed a bit being that my character is a landless noble, and not a landed noble.
I might therefore modify my character.

Hmmm, a landless noble having trouble affording expensive things...sounds about right to me.  Also sounds like a perfectly entertaining character to play.  

Remember that except for a select few guild masters in incorporated cities, wealth was still measured in land.  Those without land...generally became reliant on those with.

[Thanaeon]

Well, there is also this side to the thing: plate mail was the best, most complicated, and the most technologically advanced armour they had. A fine plate mail is all that, but even more so.

A fine plate mail is the best armour you can have. Either it's insanely protective, or (as in your character's case) it gives you the superior protection of the plate with far less encumberance. Is it ridiculously expensive? Sure. On the other hand, it is, quite literally, the best armour money can buy. The cutting edge of hi-tech, manufactured by the very best craftsmen of the industry, and no expense spared in the material and no compromises made in the construction. I'd say it's quite logical how expensive it is.

[Overdrive]

IIRC, the fine equipment rules also state that in case of armor, the AV could go up by 1. At least I've always handled it so. Basically you've got two types of fine armor: lightweight/well-fitted, and protective.

[clehrich]

It might be worth noting that I've seen some full plate suits in museums that were beautiful works of art, apparently very light (I didn't get to weigh them, obviously), and not really intended for fighting at all.  They're for looking cool in.  They've got inlaid gold on the breastplates, and they're very thin metal (so they're light), and they're velvet or fur-lined so you can wear them comfortably without all that heavy padding underneath.  But again, you wouldn't want to fight somebody wearing this sort of thing: it looks cool, and costs a mint.

Taking the Ferrari analogy, the sort of person who can afford this is the sort of person who also has at least one other, more functional car to go to the store in.  The Ferrari is for taking out and playing with.  You don't put groceries in it.  Similarly, the super-beautiful armor isn't for fighting in; it's for looking great and showing everyone just how damn much money you have.  If you have to fight in full armor, you put on something heavier that can withstand more serious blows.

Chris Lehrich

[Ingenious]

Yes, the point of fine armor 'looking' good has been nearly hammered to death by now.. but one might also state that a 'fine' item isnt merely cosmetic, but functional. More-so than the average item.

Thickness has been an issue before with regards to plate, and I have managed to forget what was said on that before..
Also, density(weight) has little/nothing to do with strength, be that tensile, torsional, etc etc.. If one were to perform a Brinell hardness test on some ancient armor.. you would most likely find out that it was softer than the average steel. Steel's strength has been brought up previously by ME on here.. including the breakdown to martensite/austensite/cementite... and so on and so on.

These are things that were known by most of the master craftsmen of the late medieval era.. though not directly. They knew through trial and error that certain methods created a superior product in the end.. be that superior heat treatment methods..  etc etc. Also, these master craftsmen would create a superior product if the customer paid extra(hence the high price of plate). This can be written off as articulated plate, better fit, etc... not just the simple explanation of 'its got gold trim and engravings' and such. So what I suggest is look at it this way, some people want a superior piece of equipment for performance reasons, while others want superior equipment for show.

These few variables explain to me the lowered movement and CP penalties. They also explain to me the higher AV value.

I won't bore you all again with the links and such to information on the properties of steel, since they're in a post of mine somewhere..

There are many more factors into what makes a weapon/armor average quality and fine quality, more-so than is realized by the generic forum-goer.
-Ingenious