'Not Here'?

[erithromycin]

A recent thread in Site Discussion got me wondering about the whole nature of roleplaying, and the particular biases that being online (and where one is online) bring to discussions of the topic, and, indeed, the implications of those biases on Design, formulations of Theory, and, perhaps most importantly, Play.

The first part is that there are clearly several ways that one can be online, and a role player, in the most basic sense.[1] There's the various entities refered to in this IntraGalactic League of Simming as members, and though they may call it 'simming' it's rather obviously a form of roleplaying. Now, I'm going to throw in an adult material warning here, but you're all grownups, I hope, so you can deal - the last time I was in a fetish club I got to talking to a couple in their late forties, and about the influence that the internet has had on BDSM, in all aspects - from education, to purchasing, to what one might argue is a more mainstream appreciation of the subculture.[2] Until they went online in 1999, they didn't know that other people did the sort of things they enjoyed. Their 'games', as they put it, were something that they'd been doing since 1974. I, on the other hand, part of the internet generation, knew that people were doing that sort of thing from about, ooh, 1994.

So we could talk about stuff, but what about that five year gap? Me, with my internet education, in 1995, and them, with 21 years of experience, but an entirely different vocabulary, set of expectations, and habits.

Now, until I encountered the 'IntraGalactic' post, 'Simming' didn't exist - it wasn't something that I knew about, not something that I would have stumbled across (until now, anyway), not something I would do. Yet it's there - and also 'Not Here'.

Which brings us to other. I note, with some interest, that news:rec.games.frp.advocacy is dead, yet again. Yet back in 1998 it gave us the threefold model, which spawned, well, lots of things. Though there are people playing out there who do not know about it. The Other Lot are huge, astonishingly populous, and, well, I'd hate to describe them as anti-theory, but there's definitely a different set of goals and expectations there. Certainly they seem to have a very strong focus on actual play, and reportage of same. Then there's The Forge, which has another set of theory, and, sometimes, it seems, theory for the sake of theory.

Anyway, obviously, the habits of those who inhabit these places affects the way they think about what they do (though they may all be ostensibly the same), and these changes in thinking have consequences - the way people play, what they do when they do it, what they play, how what they play was written, and, well, how they tell others about how they think about what they do.

I wonder how many Heartbreakers are products of convergent evolution. I wonder how a Sim (IntraGalactic) is started.
I wonder what sort of game is being written by people who've only played one game, and aren't online.

I wonder about the places that aren't here, and what they're like, if they can be said to exist.

So, to return the point.

Are we 'doomed' by location and environment (wherever that might be) to seperation from the rest of our hobby, which may be larger than we suspected? [3]

- d.

[1] We'll leave the which sense part out of it for the moment. Work with me here, eh?
[2] Ignoring the influence of fashion, through the scene crossover effect.
[3] Cunningly free from scale. Go wild.

[james_west]

I parse your discussion as follows:

The Forge is a rather specialized ghetto, with little linkage to the bulk of gamers who are out there playing D20 and/or WoD. Is this good/bad/inevitable?

(Note that I'm not trying to put words in your mouth; I'm just repeating my understanding of your post before I give my answer.)

My opinion is threefold;

(1) The fact that we're substantially socially isolated, and a minority view on the hobby, doesn't necessarily mean that we won't be the majority view five years from now. The gaming industry, I feel, is fundamentally an unstable equilibrium. Note the rapid rise of phenomena like WoD and M:TG - and I think that D20's popularity is more for its own merits than for its linkage to 2e D&D, so its rise, too, bespeaks an unstable equilibrium.

(2) I think the Forge community sufficiently cognizant of what's going on outside our niche that we're unlikely to be blindsided by outside developments, or oddly biased because we're unaware of it.

(3) I'm not sure I care much what's going on in other ghettos. I quite like mine.

- James

[erithromycin]

That's a pretty decent understanding, but my point is also that we're not the only isolated ghetto, as you put it - we're just this one, here.

I think, and this is me putting on my super hat of elitism +2, that we're not going to be the mainstream of gaming - I think it very likely that the discussions, and, probably more importantly, the games that come out of here, are going to be important, but the fact that this is about 'indie' roleplaying games is always going to put The Forge out on the lunatic fringe of gaming. It's not that we're not White Wolf, or Mongoose, or Wizards of the Coast, but that they are not us, and they are not 'here', certainly in the same way that you or I are here.

I think the example of games like Sorcerer or The Burning Wheel is interesting, not because they're different to the corporate monoliths of the abovenamed, but because they seem far closer to the "old school" local product for local people model, but the 'local' now has a very different meaning.

I hope that the Forge is sufficiently aware of what else is going on, but I think that there are intriguing lessons that can be drawn from the "Cult of Ron" and all the other GNS frothing that does still crop up in various places, the most interesting being that, given that the bulk of our hobby is about pretending to do things we don't normally do, it's amazing how much trouble people seem to have accepting that other people do, and enjoy, different things.

Finally, I'm often interested in what's going on in other ghettos, so I can go over and steal their cool stuff.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Drew,

With respect, I think your entire thesis is mistaken.

I  consider the general approach taken to role-playing by the Forge community (regardless of detail-specific differences and disagreements within it) to be extremely consistent with the outlook of two groups:

1. A hell of a lot of people who have had zero-to-minimal exposure to role-playing and do not currently play, but who would be quite interested in it given the opportunity in the right social context.

2. A subset of self-identified role-players, not the majority but definitely present in every place we've looked, who would like to approach their hobby differently from how it's generally been done in the past.

In other words, I already consider the Forge "mainstream." Perhaps you and I have different meanings for this term. I do not care about big-budget movie contracts, city-blocks-spanning convention halls, and toy licensing deals. I do care about whether the content and practices of role-playing act as a draw or as a barrier to those who might be interested. The Forge, I think, represents a set of interactions which, in the main, have produced ways for role-playing content & practices to act as a draw.

Drew, I can't remember whether you participated in The Infamous Five. Perhaps a review of all that stuff might be interesting.

Best,
Ron

[erithromycin]

One of my entire thesis is mistaken.

I saw most of the famous five when they were first posted, but am slowly working my way through them all again.

Though we are probably working to different definitions of mainstream, some of which may be down to the great Atlantic divide.

One thing that the Pg 45 discussion brought to mind immediately, however, is the one real difference that I as a consumer can see between comic shops, record shops (specifically those urban cool ones with the hip staff), book shops, and roleplaying shops, and, lo, the industries, which is that every week I can go to a place and find out what the 10 bestselling books are, nationwide, what the 10 bestselling records are, nationwide, with a bit of digging the 10 bestselling comics, nationwide, and, um, that's it.

Though that's probably a different topic altogether. It just struck me, is all.

My other entire thesis is a vague sort of mumbling about environment influencing play, which is relatively obvious, but I still think it worthy of discussion.

[erithromycin]

[I'm replying, because in the time I could have edited, I was at work.]

I used the wrong 'mainstream'. My mistake. When I talked about The Forge not being part of said entity, what I actually meant was that I don't think that it's ever going to be the bulk of the roleplaying hobby. Having reread the Famous Five, and having sat on the ideas for a while, I think that not only was I wrong, but I was wrong.

I don't think The Forge is the bulk of the hobby now, and I don't think it will be the bulk of the hobby in the future, because, with any luck, that which is dreamed of will come to pass, and the situation where people who like 'activity X' and who like to play games will play games that involve or represent 'activity X'. [edit] And Lo, we will be the minority again, because most people will be busy buying and playing all these games, and we will be writing them, and growing fat from the profits thereof, and so on and so forth. [/edit]

Which drags us back to the Intragalactics, who produce an interesting (and possibly seperately threaded, question), which is -

If there are all these groups 'Simming', that is to say, Star Trek fans who pretend to be characters in the Star Trek universe doing Star Trek things, what is it about 'Simming' that attracts them while the licensed Star Trek roleplaying games (which have been around for 20 years) do not?

[John Kim]

A somewhat belated reply to the original post...

I think, and this is me putting on my super hat of elitism +2, that we're not going to be the mainstream of gaming - I think it very likely that the discussions, and, probably more importantly, the games that come out of here, are going to be important, but the fact that this is about 'indie' roleplaying games is always going to put The Forge out on the lunatic fringe of gaming. It's not that we're not White Wolf, or Mongoose, or Wizards of the Coast, but that they are not us, and they are not 'here', certainly in the same way that you or I are here.  

Well, just to balance this, I noticed that in the new Conan RPG from Mongoose, author Paul Tucker included the dedication to "Steve Long and Ron Edwards (plus the excellent forums at The Forge) for letting me bounce ideas and, with Jake Norwood, for keeping the Sword and Sorcery flag flying high."  Now, Paul isn't a major poster if he posts at all (I didn't notice him) -- but he clearly noticed.  

I also know that Ken Hite certainly keeps aware of indie developments.  If you have read his http://www.gamingreport.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=listarticles&secid=10">Out of the Box column (which you should), you can see that he is just as  enthusiastic about the sorts of indie releases which are acclaimed here.  

So while there is a big gap in practice, I think there is more awareness and communication than you imply.  The people or designs which are indie one year may become the mainstream the next.  Jonathan Tweet went from designing "Ars Magica" and "Over the Edge" (which was certainly "lunatic fringe") to designing D&D3 for WotC seven years later, and remains enamored of indie designs as seen from his http://www.jonathantweet.com/jotgamesgcpicks.html">web page, where (for example) My Life With Master was his game pick from the last Gen Con.  

As for what the simming fans are looking for, I think it has more to do with the nature of the activity.  i.e.  While the Forge has seen a lot of innovation, it is very focussed on tabletop -- which usually means arranging for a bunch of people to come over to your house to play.  Live action designs and true online games (i.e. designed for online play) seem to be uncommon here, though ideas from indy tabletop games may influence outward.