Looking for a system that I hope exists

[myripad]

I'm pretty sure that this is the forum where I should be posting this, and I know how concerned most of you are about cross-posting, so I'll only put this here. If this is the wrong place, please re-direct me.

Like so many people, I got into roleplaying games through AD&D second edition. I started playing about 6 or 7 years ago, and I've DMed campaigns almost exclusively. I've only acted as a player in one or two, and even then I was more of a guest than anything. As such, I have a very limited understanding of what it is like to run a single character within a game. However, I seem to have managed all right, as players tend to like the games that I run and continually request new campaigns when older ones peter out, etc.

Now, about 2 years ago, after 5  years of playing AD&D 2e almost exclusively, I decided that the system was broken (which it probably is). I was already running games that were so full of house rules that the system only barely resembled AD&D. I made the leap from 2e to a fairly sketchy homebrew system after a several month long hiatus. All of the campaigns I've played with the homebrew system have been good but short -- the longest one lasted perhaps a dozen sessions, the shortest being a single night of play. The campaigns were cut-off prematurely for reasons beyond my control.

Next week, I'm starting a new campaign, and of course I've decided that it will be the best campaign I've ever run. There are two things that make it different than anything else I've done:

1) The setting. It's set in a time period vaguely resembling the early 19th century. I'm using "real" places, but not as they actually were. There are many quirks woven into the world that make it completely unlike ours while still appearing superficially similar. Blah.

2) I don't have a system.

After a lot of reading about how "system does matter," I've realized that the game will run significantly more smoothly if I use a system that's designed for the sort of game I'm playing. So, with much unnecessary background, here is my question:

Can anyone direct me to a system that is designed for a low-combat, intrique-based campaign set in world where electricity has just been invented, steam engines are the prefferred mode of transportation, the political atmosphere is similar to that of Russia during the First World War, and where supernatural forces are everpresent but never overtly? My group also decided to play with specific injuries as opposed to an HP-based system.

Any takers? The speficic injuries stuff is really the most important bit. If anyone knows of a fairly simple combat system that doesn't use HP, please tell me. I'd appreciate it.

Thank you in advance.

[Eric J.]

Uh... Welcome to the Forge!

Interesting post you got there, but I'm kindof struggling with my reply.

Your idea of your ideal game right now seems a little strange.  You are requesting specific things about the world, certain mechanics, a specific feel for a world that is really your own design.

So... with that in mind....

Gurps?  D20 modern with a couple of tweaks?  Everybody loves West End Games's D6 system.

Actually, a Tweaked D20 would be my best answer.  It is a skill based system so that should be sufficable for low combat... The world stuff should be easilly adaptable to it and I know for a fact that it uses specific injuries.  For a fantasy-esqe version of the system may I point to:

http://www.met.rdg.ac.uk/~sws99dsc/Isis/

That's the best I can do, and stay a while.  The Forge is a great place.

May the wind be always at your back,
-Pyron

[Malechi]

Hi there..

I think perhaps people might struggle to give you a concise answer due to a couple of points.  Firstly while System does indeed *matter*, it matters for a distinctly different reason than the ones you're thinking...  I think....forgive me if i've assumed too much here.

My understanding of the notion that "System Does Matter" (and thats the Forgesque notion) is really not tied to Setting as such.  Its more intimately tied to the *way* you play the game and I suppose more correctly, the goals of your play.  

There's not much in your description that indicates play preference other than genre-based assumptions.   This is where I point to the artiles on GNS and ask, "What mode of play do you think you and your group prefer?"  Investigation games high on intrigue can run the gamut of Gamist, Narrativist and Simulationist in the way they're played, it just depends on the particular group's preferences.  Each one of those will give you a different answer from people regarding their suggested systems.  

There's a hint at where I think you're leaning and it points to perhaps a Simulationist kind of game:

My group also decided to play with specific injuries as opposed to an HP-based system.

- The Riddle of Steel by Driftwood Publishinghttp://www.theriddleofsteel.netwith some tweaks to include Industrial Revolution era concepts.  By its very nature its probably easy to use it as a low-combat game that includes specific injuries.  This ignores the SAs portion which is pretty heavily bent towards Narrativism.  Check out the essay, the free-version of the game at the site and see what you think
- a/state from Contested Groundhttp://www.contestedground.com.  I don't own the system, but the setting seems compatible and some of the notions are the same.  check out the review at RPG.net atm...

jason k...[/url]

edited: my board-fu was not strong

[myripad]

I think that all of the background stuff I added was pretty pointless. You're right, of course -- it's not a setting issue. I really could have just posted, "does anyone have suggestions for a combat system that uses specific injuries instead of HP and would be suited to a low-combat game?" I just added the other stuff because I'm overly self-indulgent. Thanks for the suggestions. I'm actually pretty unfamiliar with most RPGs because my experience has been so heavily bent towards AD&D. And Shadowrun, I guess. Um.

[Andrew Norris]

Would HeroQuest be something that might fill the bill, maybe? Injuries are abstracted, but it doesn't use HP per se.

There have been a number of posted conversions for modern (or rather, non-Gloranthan) HQ keywords.

[myripad]

It's not HP that we're not using, it's abstracted injuries in general. Thanks, though.

[Sean]

I can't believe I'm recommending this system, because I don't like it, but: Runequest 3rd edition, with its hit locations, impalements, and area hit points, sounds something like what you want.  The Stormbringer implementation of BRP also might work.

Burning Wheel isn't exactly what you're looking for but if you want combat that really feels authentic the scripting system there lets you get into the intricate structure of each flurry. Also, the price is right on BW. Riddle of Steel also sounds like it might work for you and comes highly recommended around here.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay might do for a hybrid system - low wounds number quickly defaulting to nicely gruesome, area-specific criticals.

Gosh, I'm drawing a blank. Does anyone out there know a system in which all wounds always do more or less straight body damage? Riddle of Steel seems sort of like that, but...

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

I recommend the first edition of Cyberpunk, specifically the set of combat rules called Friday Night Firefight.

Best,
Ron

[Hugin]

..."does anyone have suggestions for a combat system that uses specific injuries instead of HP and would be suited to a low-combat game?"

Have you considered R. Talsorien's Castle Falkenstein rules (http://www.talsorian.com/cfindex.shtml) ; victorian setting (so lots of appropriate setting material with the option of magic and steampunk if desired), playing card system and definately no HP. Odd but interesting.

The Conspiracy X system (http://www.conspiracyx.com/htmldocuments/frames.html) is fairly crunchy, uses an easy-to-run skill system and is not geared toward encouraging gunfests (if you expect to survive).

There's always Call of Cthulhu (1889 incarnation) - though it uses hit points (as someone pointed out, A/state doesn't and it's virtually the BRP system anyway so a convertion using the free A/state Lite rules is perfectly feasible).

Good hunting

Dave

[Dav]

Damn Ron and his typing digits of madness!  

I second the Cyberpunk FNFF idea, and also add Kult 1st edition.  I realize that Kult mainly uses the Light Wound-Moderate-Serious-Fatal Wound idea, but the translation of such wounds into game effects is fairly well detailed within the game.

West End's d6 can be pretty easily put to specific hit location use (I could swear there's some post-apocalyptic angels vs d(a)emons game where that happens).

Those would be my suggestions for things that will work.

Dav

[myripad]

I looked up the FNFF system, and it is absolutely perfect. Of course, everything about automatic weapons and rocket launchers is basically irrelevant to me, but the core material is simple and gritty -- exactly what I wanted. Thanks to all who posted suggestions. I'm amazed at how quickly this forum responds to queries. I'll post again if I ever feel like I need help with anything roleplaying-related.

[murazor]

It may be too late, but I'll add my voice to the choir anyway;
You may also want to check out CORPS (Complete Omniversal Role Playing System). It's generic, it's gritty and it's cheap (downloadable for 10$) I remember owning the book way back, but I lost it, so I'm not the guy to ask for specifics. There's a whole bunch of reviews of it on rpg.net, though.

[S'mon]

Gurps?  D20 modern with a couple of tweaks?  Everybody loves West End Games's D6 system.

WEG's d6 system was what occurred to me too.  Marcus Rowland's 'Forgotten Futures' game might be good - it's more a 19th-century setting w rules tacked on though, I think.  BRP as in Call of Cthulu might be good for very low-combat, non-heroic play.

[S'mon]

Oh, for what it's woirth here are some rules I've used sucessfully for PBEMs in various genres.  They use a wound-level  system rather than a hit points system.  The stats are combat-focussed though.

S'MON'S PBEM RULES

These rules are intended to enable a PBEM GamesMaster (GM) to simulate the world of swords & sorcery fiction.  They are based on the throw of a single six-sided die (d6) combined with the GM's good judgement to resolve almost all actions.

Characters
Most Characters have the following five stats: Strength, Speed, Skill, Agility, and Stamina.  The average stat, based on an 18-year-old human male, is 3.   A character with Str 6 is twice as strong as a normal man.  Attribute checks are made when a character attempts a task they might fail - roll a d6, if the number rolled is equal to or less than the stat, they have succeeded.  The roll may be modified (eg +1 or -1) for particularly easy or hard tasks.  Characters do not usually have Mental attributes (except possibly Magic, below) because the GM should adjudicate use of mental and other abilities depending on the character and the situation.  (But if the GM prefers, characters may be assigned stats in Intelligence, Willpower, Knowledge & Charisma).

Character Stats
While the player should detail the character's appearance, personality, etc, the GM should assign attributes based on that description.

Typical Normal Human Stats.
Character            (Strength Speed Skill Agility Stamina)
Male, 40-yr-old         4          2        3      2               3
Female, 40-yr-old       2        2       2      2             3
Male, 18-yr-old         3         3        3        3             3
Female, 18-yr-old       2        3       1      3             2
Male, 12-yr-old         2         3        2       4              2
Female, 12-yr-old       1        3       1      4             2

Magic-using characters have a sixth attribute, Magic.

Witches and Warlocks.
Rank     Magic
Novice    1-3
Adept     4-6
Sorceror  7-9
Magus    10-12

Example: Munchausen is a powerful Warlock, his stats are Strength 4, Speed 4, Skill 4, Agility 4, Magic 8, Stamina 3.


Fixed-Point Character Generation.
A starting Swords & Sorcery player character is given 18 Attribute Points to allocate to character stats, at least 1 point per stat. Magic-using characters (Witches, Warlocks, Priests) also get 18 points and must allocate at least 1 point to their Magic stat.

Typical Characters (18-pt).
Character            (Strength Speed Skill Agility Stamina)
Warrior                      4            3       4        3         4
Rogue                         3           4       4        4         3
Sorceror                      2           3       3        3         3    Magic: 4
Priest                          3            3       3        3        4     Magic: 2                


COMBAT.
The combat round is about 6 seconds, in which time a character may attack, cast a spell, run away, etc.
In 1 round character may move 10' per point of Speed, double if running, treble if sprinting (but may not then attack).

The Combat Sequence:
Each character rolls the following
1. Initiative: d6+ Speed, highest rolling character goes first.
2. Attack: Need to roll (4 - Skill + target's Agility) or more to hit.
3. Damage: Strength + weapon damage.
4. Wounds are compared vs target's Stamina - see below.

Weapons.
Weapon  Damage  Notes
Fist          STR      1 att, or 2 attacks at -1 & -2.
Kick        STR+1       1 attack at -1 (unless trained in kick-fighting).
Club        STR+1d6 or more.  Improvised club att at -1.

Dagger    STR+1d6           Lethal damage.
Sword     STR+1d6+1            "          "
Mace       STR+1d6+1            "         "

Greatsword  2xSTR+1d6+1  "         " (2-handed)
Spear       2xSTR+1d6            "         "        "
Great Axe 2xSTR+1d6+2   "         " (2-handed), -1 Agility

Arrow (shortbow) 2d6                  Fire 1/round
Arrow (longbow) 2d6+STR         Fire 1/round
Quarrel (crossbow) 3d6                Fire 1/2 rounds.
Quarrel (heavy crossbow) 5d6      Fire 1/4 rounds.


Two-Weapon Combat.
Sword and dagger: Both attacks at -1 to hit.
Two Swords: 1 attack at -1 to hit, 1 attack at -2 to hit.

Armour.
Some characters may have armour.  This reduces damage by 1 point per point of armour.
Armour.      Armour Points       Penalty
Leather                   1                     Nil (but see below)
Chainmail               2                    -1 Speed
Platemail                 3                    -1 Speed

Helmets impose an additional -1 Speed penalty.
Armour which covers the limbs imposes an additional -1 Agility penalty.

Shields: An attacker is -1 to hit an opponent using a shield.

_______________________________________________________

Stamina/Wounds System.

Average Stamina: 3.

NB: All effects are cumulative.

Damage Roll                      Result
Under Stamina.            Scratch - character must make Stamina check or lose an action.
= St, Under 2 St.         Minor Wound. 2 Minor wounds = 1 Major.
= 2 St, Under 3 St.      Major Wound.  All stats halved (round up).  2 Major  = 1 Critical.
= 3 St, Under 4 St.      Critical Wound. Unconscious*.  2 Crit. = Dead.
= 4 St +                      Dead.

*Without medical attention, character must pass 1d6 Stam check, or die in 0-9 hours + 1-60 minutes.  If they pass they wake up at the end of this period.

Example: Blakus has Stamina 3.
He is punched by Jilla (Str 2), dam 2, less than his Stamina, so Scratch.  Loses his action.
He is then punched by Jimec (Str 3), dam 3, = his Stam, so Minor Wound.
He is then shot by an arrow, dam 2d6.  Roll 4, greater than his Stamina.  Minor Wound.  Has taken 2 minor wounds, so 1 Major Wound.  All stats halved, Stamina reduced to 2.
He is then shot by a crossbow bolt, dam 3d6.  Roll 8, = 4 x Stamina, so he is dead.

Damage Roll              Result
Less than Stamina.     Scratch*
Stamina                     Minor Wound.
2 x Stamina.              Major Wound.  Stats halved (round up).  
3 x Stamina               Critical Wound. Unconscious**.
4 x Stamina               Dead.

2 Minor wounds = 1 Major,  2 Major = 1 Critical, 2 Critical = Dead.

*Scratch: Stamina check on 1d6 or lose actions for rest of round.
**Without medical attention, must pass 1d6 Stam check, or die in 0-9
hours + 1-60 minutes.


Combat Example:
Round 1. Munchausen (Speed 4) faces Mike (Speed 3).
1. Munchausen gets 4 + d6 roll 4 = 8 for initiative, Mike gets 3+ d6 roll 1 = 4.  Munchausen goes first.
2. Munchausen (Skill 4) needs 3 to hit Mike (Agility 3) with a magic knife.  He gets 2 - misses.
3. Mike (Skill 3) shoots an arrow at Munchausen (Agility 4)  He needs a "5".  He gets "4"  - miss.

Round 2.
Munchausen gets 4+4=8 for Initiative, Mike gets 3+4=7.  Munchausen goes first.  Needs "3", gets 4 and hits.  Magical knife does 2d6 damage + his Strength of 4.  Rolls 8+4=12 damage.  This is 4 x Mike's Stamina of 3, so he is killed.

Hit Location
A hit may always be declared to be against the target's torso.  Optionally roll d6 or d6+4 (for melee), or d10 (for missile), on hit-location table.

1: Head.
2: Right arm.
3: Left arm.
4-6: Torso.
7-8: Right leg.
9-10: Left leg.

Head hits do double damage (roll dammage, deduct armour points, then double the remaining damage).  A major wound to a limb is reduced to a minor wound, but the limb is used at -1 on all operations.  A critical wound to a limb is reduced to a major wound, but the limb is unusable until healed.  A dead result to a limb is reduced to a critical wound, but the limb is destroyed/permanently disabled.


HEALING OF WOUNDS.
Recovery        Without medical attention   With medical attention
Minor to none                 2 days                           1 day.
Major to Minor                4 days                           2 days.
Critical to Major               8 days                          4  days.

_____________________________________________________________________

Magic
Some characters may be Witches (female) or Warlocks (male), and have a 6th attribute: Magic Skill.  The character's Magic Skill determines the number of spells they know, the power of those spells when cast, and the number of spells they can cast per day.  Casting a spell temporarily reduces a character's Magic by 1 (or more) - when it reaches 0, the character is too tired to cast more spells.  If it falls below 1 due to casting a powerful spell, the following effects apply:

Magic   Effect
-1       Unconscious
-2       Unc & 1d6 damage.
-3       Unc & 2d6 damage.
-4       Unc & 3d6 damage
Etc.

Some spells require an attribute check against a character's current Magic to succeed.  Temporarily lost magic points regenerate during sleep at a rate of 1/hour.
A typical starting Witch or Warlock will have a Magic rating of between 1 (poor) and 3 (talented).
Spells usually take 1 combat round to cast.  Players are encouraged to create their own spells.

Examples of Spells:

1. Energy Blast.  Cost: 1.
Effect: Causes a blast of magical energy from the caster's hands, doing 1 point Stamina damage to the target per point of caster's pre-casting Magic Skill.  The caster must make a succesful Attack roll (get 4 or more on d6-Skill+Target's Agility) to hit.  A more powerful blast costs 2 Magic points and does double damage, the most powerful blast costs 3 points and does treble damage.  Range is 3m per point of pre-casting Magic.

Spellcasting Example: Munchausen the Warlock (Magic 8, Skill 4) knows 8 spells.  He fires an energy blast at Kenko (Agility 3, Stamina 10).  Munchausen spends 2 Magic pts for a double-power blast.  He needs 4-4+3=3 or more on a d6 to hit - "4" - hits.  Damage is 8x2=16.  Kenko's Stamina is reduced to 10-16=-6, killing him.  Munchausen's current Magic falls to 6.

2.Domination Cost: 1 +1/order.
This spell enable the caster to temporarily dominate the mind of another, who must be within sight and hearing distance, maximum range 3m per point of pre-casting Magic.  After control is established, the target is frozen in place. The caster can then attempt to give the target telepathic orders, if successful the target must carry them out to the best of his or her ability.  The caster must make a d6 attribute check vs current Magic to succeed.  Caster gets a +1 bonus to his Magic rating if the target is of the opposite sex (and heterosexual).  Particularly strong-willed targets, and orders strongly against the target's nature, will cause a penalty, usually -1 to -3.  Initial control and each order given to the target requires a separate d6 check and costs 1 magic pt.  Domination requires the caster's whole attention, if the caster is wounded or distracted, control is automatically broken.

Example: Munchausen (male, Magic 8) attempts to dominate Leda (female, average willpower).  The initial attempt needs 8+1=9 or less on a d6, and automatically succeeds.  Munchausen's Magic falls to 7.
He then orders Leda to kill herself, this is strongly against her nature, so there is a -3 penalty to the check. Munchausen needs 7+1-3=5 or less on a d6.  He gets "5", and she walks off the rooftop.  Munchausen's Magic falls to 6.

3. Levitation  Cost: 1/minute.
This spell enables the caster to float in the air, he may raise or lower himself at a rate of 3m per round per current (post-casting) point of Magic, eg Munchausen, Magic 8-1=7, can float up or down at up to 3m/70' per round.

4.  Invisibility.  Cost: 1/minute.
This spell turns the caster invisible.  Other spellcasters may be able to detect him if he is within sight, they must roll equal to or less than their Magic minus the caster's current Magic on 1d6 to do so.

5.  Fly.  Cost: 3/minute.
This spell enables the caster to fly at a rate of 9m (30')/round per remaining (post-casting) point of Magic.

6. Healing.  Cost: Special.
This power requires the laying-on of hands, and is typically available only to goodly priests.
Healing minor wound: 1 MP.
Major to minor: 2 MP.
Critical to major: 4 MP.
_________________________________________________________


EXPERIENCE

Characters may gain Experience Points through actions, and improve their attributes.  For every 100 xp earned, a character gets a +1 bonus to an attribute chosen by the GM, normally an attribute that has been extensively used, or rolled randomly.  
Example:  A beginning PC defeats a soldier in combat, and earns 15 xp.  Six more such victories, and he will gain a +1 attribute bonus.