Started reading Hero Wars and.......

[pacific_steve]

Ok, I've finally started to read Hero Wars.  It's badly organised, that much is obvious. They need to do a serious rework of this. If I was a complete newbie, I'd be confused about character creation for a start.  But this thread aint for bashing...what I want to discuss is the use of Hero Points to advance plotline.
Like many gamers, I was raised on a steady diet of G and S type games where players had a fair degree of control over character action limited largely by dice rolling. It seems that Hero Wars (so far in my reading anyway) highlights the spending of HP to advance the plotlin and influence wht happens to the characters in the story. Now, I can certainly see the novel use of this, but spending HP to 'cement' acquired wealth (just because most Gloranthan transactions are bartered) or to keep the magic runesword your beloved character just picked up. This seems ludicrous. In essence it takes power away from the player to control the actions of their character. So one scenario might go:
GM: "Oh yeah and remember that wondrous goblet of Magasta you picked up last session?"
Player: "Umm..yeah"
GM: "Cuz you didn't spend a HP to cement it, your tribe decides to keep it"

I don't know if this is common to narrative gaming, but that just seems slightly silly to me. What that section of the rule book does is to place more importane on currency called Hero Points than any actual player statement. Instead of spending a HP why doesn't the player just simply write this newfound treasure on her sheet  as a possession and go from there?
Ok...so here's something else bothering me. Flaws. Perhaps I'm looking at this from a Gamist perspective, but if  the only point to accumulating flaws is to influence the GM into advancing a certain story line....well...that seems a bit silly.  And the section on wealth...cripes! Here we've gone from a fairly abstract section on creaing a character (admitedly I didn't need to know that Kallai's mother has a Nag rating of 8...who rates that stuff anyway and why?) to a place where any player can say..oh yeah, by the way my Lunar peasant just happens to be very welthy so I can buy pretty much anything from the shops.
Now, sure, in the pure interests of story I'd rather create a good character with flaws and stay true to the world...but not every player will and really, so far the system is a bit too wishy wahsy in parts and quite limiting in others...
But like I say, I'm not done with it...these are initial thoughts. If anyone can shed some light that would be excellent.

Steve

[Mike Holmes]

Hi Steve,

First, let me come clean and say that I have never played Hero Wars. I have played other narrativist games, though, and have read Hero Wars, and I think I understand the problem.

Your comments that these rules are "silly" probably does relate, as you thought it might, to a lack of exposure to this sort of game. Looking at the game from a simulationist perspective will make you feel that way. That is to say that simulationist players are going to be sorely disapointed by the fact that the game mechanics are not there to do what traditional mechanics are there for. Hero Wars mechanics balance out a story, they do not attempt to do the usual thing, which is to have a way for a player to drive a character's actions through a theoretical world in a "realistic" fashion.

To an extent a certain type of gamist player might feel fine within this context as well, but that player would be rare. The rule is balancing, it's just that the whole system is not designed to promote accumulating hero points or anything so much as driving the story forward. That drive is what defines the game as narrativist in design.

Really, these modes are fairly different activities. To that extent, yes, there may be many who will not like narrativism. Especially amongst those who try to play it with their former mindframe intact. It does require one to switch gears to play. But I must also say that the effort is worthwhile. While I personally would never entirely replace my traditional non-narrativist play with entirely narrativist play, I do like it a lot.

If you don't like narratism, fine. But I'd strongly suggest giving it an honest try before just dismissing it. This means probably finding other players who like narrativist games to try this with (perhaps online as they are relatively rare). My attempts at running a narrativist game with players who were unprepared gamist/simulationists (including myslef) were disasterous. Again, the mindset was not there. If other players are in that mode, it is much easier to make the transition yourself. You just have to remember that you aren't playing a game anymore or trying to simulate something so much as just collaborating on creating a story within the framework of the rules.

The other suggestion that I have been handing out like candy lately is to just take an hour and play a game of SOAP. Download the game for free, and run it with your players just before your normal play session. Explain that the whole game takes only about an hour to play including making the characters and explaining the rules; few will balk at that. This is an overly narrativist game, and after playing you'll get what narrativism is about. Then you can make a more informed decision as to whether you like that sort of thing or not, and whether or not Hero Wars might be your cup of tea.

Mike Holmes

[Mike Holmes]

[ This Message was edited by: Mike Holmes on 2001-10-03 11:58 ]

[Valamir]

I'd concur.  Dismissing anything about Hero Wars as silly makes it obvious that you just don't get it.  The game is not a dungeon haul where characters upgrade their magic goodies at each new level throwing out that +1 sword for a brand new +2 one.  If something isn't worth spending an HP on to cement than it isn't worth having on your character sheet.

Hero Wars is about exploring and creating the mythology and legends of Glorantha.  When was the last time you read a myth which included an inventory of every item your character is carrying with you.  Spending an HP is saying that this item is now attached to your legend (not just possessed by your character), in the way that Arthur has Excaliber, or Odin has Sleipner, or Elric has Stormbringer.

If you spend an HP on the Goblet of Magasta then that goblet becomes a part of your legend.  Centuries from now when the bards tell your tales your character will be forever associated with that Goblet. It will be "Tell us the tale of Clive and the Goblet of Magasta".  Other wise the goblet is nothing more than a possession that slips through your hands.

Read Beowulf for a good idea on how these cultures treat possessions.  Gold rings and arm bands are handed out and passed around as casually as we might share a bag of Goobers today.  Only by spending an HP does that possession truly belong to you.

As far as why you need to now someones mother has a rating in "Nag"...Well.  I'd say that that is FAR FAR FAR more important to playing in Glorantha than knowing how much your character can carry.  Like many of us raised on D&D and its ilk, you probably wouldn't have batted an eye at seeing a space for Encumberance.  But I can tell you can can use that nagging mother to launch stories.  You can't use carry capacity for anything other than accounting.

Your comment on flaws is also telling.  They aren't worth anything?  Having the power to signal to the GM what type of story you're interested and what kind of challenges you expect him to throw at you is far more valuable than getting a couple extra character points.

Here's my advice.  Don't read the Hero Wars rule book any further.  Instead read the Stories of Glorantha (I forget now the actual name).  If you bought the Deluxe box set its included, if not its available from Wizards Attic now seperately.  Read those stories and then realize the following.  Those stories are not stories the way your character would here a bard tell them in local tavern.  Those stories are examples of how Hero Wars should be played.  Think of how you would play your PC in order to produce an adventure similiar to the ones in those stories..THEN you will have a much better understanding on why Hero Wars emphasises certain things and ignores others.

Playing in Glorantha via Hero Wars is not even remotely in the same vicinty as the neighhorhood of the ball park as playing in Glorantha via Rune Quest.  Discard all knowledge you aquired of Rune Quest and enjoy Hero Wars on its own merits.  You may yet decide it isn't your cup of tea, but far from being silly, it is possibly the most powerful integration of game and game world ever written.

[pacific_steve]

Thank you for your comments and help, it is much appreciated. Firstly, I'd like to say that I was extremely tired when I wrote this last night and having just come across the chapter on 'Wealth' I was a little confused. I do come from a simulationist game perspective, in terms of RQ and D&D, so my mindset is going to have to evolve to come to grips with HW. The positive is this: I enjoy Glorantha and I enjoy the central ideas of narrativism. I'm willing to alter my mindset in order to participate in the Hero Wars.
I think this is certainly one encumbrance to my understanding of the system. The other is the fact that the rule book is organised badly. There are numerous examples, but I don't believe they are clear enough and the book will benefit from introductory paragraphs detailing key concepts and a careful edit.
I 'get' the way myth works and I understand what Hero Wars is trying to achieve. HP are like currency in the flow of the game. Just before bed last night I pondered their use in the game. The other parallel in gaming terms is the concept of Fate Points in Warhammer FRP. Only, in Hero Wars, they influence more than simply the avoidance of death. I like to think of spending them as an appeal to the pantheon or the cosmos or the auric force of Glorantha. I think in that way they make intuitive sense for me.
I suppose, what confused me most, was this focus on them so early in the book without sufficient explanation of how vital they are to the storyline. They are not something I can merely write off and I realise that now. They are not like some AD&D tacked on mechanic I can simply discard. They are central to the flow of the game and I've had to sleep on it to realise that.
I'm aware that this is not a simple dungeon crawl though. One of the reasons I like Glorantha is because it's not simple dungeon crawling. I can already see that HW has great potential as a system and from experience, system always plays better than it reads. I like the idea of playing something like SOAP to generate the appropriate mindset though.
Further to my tired rant on flaws. I was applying a purely mechanical perspective to the issue so it was not hammering home to me at the time. I do, however, understand that HW is driven by character, culture and Hero Points at this stage. Flaws are meaningful in the sense that they flesh out character and influence the flow of the story. My problem is, being used to fairly linear physics based systems, that I'm trying to wrap my head around the concept of the storyline being driven by something other than the GM and character action. If I understand it correctly, my players may elect to spend HP to influence the storyline. That same storyline is also tightly associated with culture and character so that if one of my players elects to take the flaw : "lazy eye" or something, I can tailor the storyline in such a way that incorporates this flaw. I just need to find that balance between players spending HP to drive the game and some kind of objective view of the storyline devised by myself as GM, otherwise the game might become a free for all melee of HP spending. Is it possible to retain some sense of GM story determination in HW, or do I need to give up that old chestnut completely? I see that as some kind of ego loss, which is not necessarily a terrible thing, mind you.

Steve

[Valamir]

Don't worry about it.  After posting I realized that my reply was more snippy than I intended.  Hero Wars is a lot to absorb.  On the organization front I agree full bore.  I hate the trade paperback format for starters.  Its impossible to get the books to stay open without breaking the binding.  The introduce rules as part of the descriptive text makes for an enjoyable read, but is horrible as a reference book.  I know there are those who will disagree with me on this, but in my mind, a rule book should be organized primarily for handling time as during game reference material.  When I want to find something I want to find it, and I want it either all in one place or copiously cross referenced.

Ron can probably wax eloquent for hours on actual play of the game.  I've not been fortunate enough to do more than drool at the possibilities.

[pacific_steve]

No worries Valamir...my intial post sounds more whiny than I intended anyway.
Mmm...I'm not sure whether Issaries were under some kind of time constraint, but if you produce a game that is to be your flagship product, you really need to produce it properly and from an organisational aspect it's a mess. They might have been well advised to hold off on sending to print for a few more months just to re work it. Anyway...
Hopefully Ron will pipe up in here soon as I'd like to know what his thoughts are on some of the interpretations.
Like yourself, I'm drooling over the possibilities and not actually playing. The proof is in the play I suppose, but even though it's a lot to absorb, as you so rightly suggest, the possibilities are astounding.
What I like most so far is in the creation of character from a written abstract. Finally, a game which actually emphasises character over tables (even though there are numbers and some tables). This is probably why I was a bit perturbed to see 'Nag 8'. I just figured that when someone is a Nag, it ought not to be quantified :smile: Please, someone suggest a way the number can be used in a session.

Steve

[Mike Holmes]

On 2001-10-03 23:25, pacific_steve wrote:
Please, someone suggest a way the number can be used in a session.

Somebody explain the whole Task resolution vs Conflict resolution thingie, or give a reference. I'm not good at this one. Ralph?

[Blake Hutchins]

Nag strikes me as nothing more than a variety of Persuade, perhaps geared more toward being used on family members.

You could use Nag in an extended contest in which Kallai's mom is trying to get Kallai or his father to take an action immediately, probably something they would be reluctant to do in the first place. It might be Nag versus the target character's Stubbornness, Tact, Apathy, or Loves His Ale, depending on the action the nag is pushing the hero to take.

The extended contest could also be a long-term thing, with an exchange rolled whenever Kallai returns to visit his mother.

Alternatively, Nag could be used in a Quick Contest just to see whether Kallai's mother gets the father to do something other than hang out at the village tavern.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Blake

[epweissengruber]

How many fantasy books involve a quest for some powerful item that is forgotten in the next instalment, Happens to Conan all the time. But if "the axe of doom" is important to your character -- you better damn well cement it -- or off it goeth to tribal regalia or tribute, or lost in the river etc