New Old Questions

[rylen dreskin]

Howdy,

I've picked up HeroQuest and hope to run a game sometime soon.  I'm still trying to work out some aspects, though.  From the posts I've read here, I think ya'll will helpful.

First, my background.  I learned about Glorantha two years ago with King of Dragon Pass.  Great game and an extremely real world.  I loved the HeroQuesting idea though I treated the community magic as a combination of supernatural and resource assignment.  For instance a farming temple is not just offerings; it's also a repository of skills, strange rituals (like covering plants with blankets) which we more scientific folks have a reason for, and a meeting place.  In other words, an agronomy service.

I've played some of the d20 systems.  They're fine but don't encourage much depth.  I think simply adding a relationship system onto it would produce a huge improvement.  I've argued for HERO style psychological limitations and DNPCs, but that's a system I had considerable success with.


First, some game world questions.

I plan on running a settlement of Dragon Pass game first.  It'll be smaller then the Hero Wars, but let me stick to what I know, only deal with 2.5 of the 4+ magic systems (theism, common, and some animism), and not need to invest in too many books.  Which books do I need?  I've got HQ rulebook, HW Thunder Rebels, and HW Glorantha Into (badly in need of an editor.)  I'd like some guidelines on building typical Herot clans.  Run some fights and cattle raids.  Both flavor and mechanics are important here.

I'm not entirely sure how theistic affinities and feats work.  Tell me if this is right . . . A Orlanth (Mastakos) initiate picks up MOVEMENT along with physical abilities like dance and drive chariot.  He can improvise the two MOVEMENT feats, "follow in footsteps" and "never get stuck."  But he cannot improvise "swim upstream" or "leap over wall."  People with concentrated magic can buy the named feats but not create their own.  Devotees can use feats without penalties.  Right so far, good?

Now it gets complicated.  As narrator I (and the players once they catch on) can add stuff on?  [Anyone know the name of the first Zombie?  For now, he's Phil.]  Since the clan was besieged by Zombies before the Dawn, they paid close attention when Humakt slew the undead and learned the Phil's Seven Wounds.  This feat is kept by a Humakt shrine in the clan and a few other spots.  It teaches 4 agreed places zombies are especially vulnerable and another 5 different shrines argue about.  It is most commonly used to augment groups before facing those undead (reduced penalty on group augment) by explaining how and where to strike and blessing the weapons so they go true.  It is weaker when used for personal augments.  (My Champions upbringing is showing.  Advantage for this, so disad for that.)  This isn't just allowed, it's encouraged, yes?

I'm still struggling to understand the Wizard plane.  Liturgical prayers and Wizardly spells seem extremely similar.  I've the impression that Churches, Saintly Orders, and Schools are distinct in people's minds, but do not get that feeling from the chapter.  I'm wondering how spells generalize.  For instance, the Abiding Book provides Community Defense Spells.  To what extent do we pick from a list versus adding our own.  For instance creating "Strengthen Walls."

The Heortling fear sorcery as soul draining?  Sorcerers often practice evil "tapping?"  There are no details.  And why don't the churches do that, too?

Chaos is bad?  I've read the background and know my GamesWorkshop mythology, too.  But, how is chaos bad mechanically?  Why is chaos tempting?  And what happens if you indulge in it?

Mysticism gets mentioned a few times.  What is it?

I've been reading online myths lately.  Does Eurmal figure as prominently in Heortling life as he does in what I've seen?  He's everywhere – getting people in and out of hell.  Starting things that push Lankhor Myh, Issaries, and Vinga into action.  Being a general nuisance, but essential.

I've got some questions on writing Heroquests, but I'll leave that until I actually try to assemble one.  I'm thinking of adapting "How Vinga Became a Warrior" http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/bferrie/myths/index.htm -- but need to wait and see what sort of cast I get.  It looks like a good initiation story, but would use the same attribute repeatedly and doesn't seem to have the big challenge or "heroquest moment" the rule book talks about.

I'm intrigue by the idea of a practice quest.  Where you go about your life and the world throws elements of the myth at you.

Well, thanks for comments and exlplanations.
Rylen

[Alai]

Hi Rylen, and welcome!

Lots of topics.  This thread accordingly sorta comes 'pre-drifed', so I'm just going to wade in on some of these by way of getting them started...

I plan on running a settlement of Dragon Pass game first.  It'll be smaller then the Hero Wars, but let me stick to what I know, only deal with 2.5 of the 4+ magic systems (theism, common, and some animism), and not need to invest in too many books.  Which books do I need?  I've got HQ rulebook, HW Thunder Rebels, and HW Glorantha Into (badly in need of an editor.)  I'd like some guidelines on building typical Herot clans.  Run some fights and cattle raids.  Both flavor and mechanics are important here.

It's in many ways entirely the wrong book in most of its specifics, but Orlanth is Dead has one IMO Must Have for a Heortling-clan-based game -- the clan generator questionaire. (Wrong in that most of the book is modern-day setting and campaign info.) It'll need reworked for the Resettlement era, what's worse, but even simply truncating it after the 14th century questions you'd get a goodly amount of determination of 'who we are'.  And best of all, you get to do it collectively, so you can blame your players when their ancestors start giving them grief as a consequence of a decision they made...

(There's an earlier version online at glorantha.com, if you want to get some impression of what I'm raving about.)

The Dragon Pass gazetteer is probably a good bet, although again, you'll have the 'roll-back' issue. At least the hills haven't moved -- for the most part. Storm Tribe will work essentially unmodified -- how urgently you want it depends on whether you consider the 'minority religions' it contains to be a priority. (e.g., do your players want to play Vingans, Humakti, and Yinkini (all alluded to in HQ I think) and/or, do you want to encourage them? <g>)

The Heortling fear sorcery as soul draining?  Sorcerers often practice evil "tapping?"  There are no details.  And why don't the churches do that, too?

Most Malkiioni churches consider it immoral and strictly ban it. Roughly speaking, Tapping is causing serious permanent harm to another sentient creature in order to gain a temporary magical benefit for oneself. Regardless of it being done by sorcery (which is an issue for the Heortlings, but not for the Malkioni themselves, obviously) it's simply a tremendously nasty, personally and socially destructive, thing to do.

Chaos is bad?  I've read the background and know my GamesWorkshop mythology, too.  But, how is chaos bad mechanically?  Why is chaos tempting?  And what happens if you indulge in it?

A big topic!  Roughly speaking, chaos is that which violates the cosmic order. (Since not all cultures agree of what the 'cosmic order' even is in the first place, there are definitional issues already.) It includes such obvious horrors as creatures that live on human flesh, or reproduce by rape, or destroy people's souls, so most people can agree that _those_ things are chaos, and are very, very bad, to boot. The Lunars are notable in that they have a broadly compatible definition of what Chaos is to the Heortlings, but a very different take on it morally. In a sense they regard it as a 'fact of life', not something to work oneself into an ethical stupor over.

Mysticism gets mentioned a few times.  What is it?

A very big topic!  A Heortling perspective would start along the lines of "The Bright Empire practiced mysticism;  Yoof practised mysticism;  the Dragon Empire and the Lunars practice mysticism -- we're over budget already for a 'Triad of deeply wrong-headed examples, so just don't even contemplate having any truck with it." Naturally the Hero Wars will probably be rife with interaction with elements of all of the above. ;-)

A rules-oriented answer might be, "that magic system which breaks all the rules for magic systems, and which we thus have no rules for".

In philosophical terms, attempting to reach a transcendent state without 'messing around with' the Otherworlds which normal perception interposes in between. (Not to mention the mundane world.) Generally by practices that are ascetic in some sense.

In terms of RW analogues:  elements of Hinduism and Buddhism; Jaina. (In genre fiction terms most obviously the Force, but G. Stafford hates and refutes that example...)

I'm intrigue by the idea of a practice quest.  Where you go about your life and the world throws elements of the myth at you.

No, in Glorantha it's "getting up in the morning" that causes that. ;-)  But yes, it's going about in one's normal environs, ritually and consciously in a manner of a given myth. Though IMO all HeroQuests involve, and necessitate reconciling, elements from both myth and mundane existence -- they just come at it from different directions.

Cheers,
Alex.

[Harrek]

Hi Rylen... boy, that's a monster post to tackle. I'll try. You're touching on Gloranthan metaphysics, though, so my answers might not be useful (or even quite correct). Let's see what the Forge can do with this, then if you're still wanting to poke your fingers into the messy bits, you can go here for the basics:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/HeroQuest-RPG/

and here for the heavy lifting:

http://www.gloranthadigest.com/

I plan on running a settlement of Dragon Pass game first.  [SNIP] Which books do I need? [SNIP]  I'd like some guidelines on building typical Herot clans.

Thunder Rebels is the most important Heortling book. That's a great place to start.  Also go get HeroQuest Voices, if you haven't already. I always forget that one, because it's a free download (yes, free). Find it here:

http://www.glorantha.com/products/hqvoices/index.html

There is an early version of a clan generator on Issaries' site, here (also free):

http://www.glorantha.com/tools/clan_start.html

With your stated goals, I think there are four print sources that will be helpful. Try these:

Storm Tribe Heortling cults other than Orlanth/Ernalda
Dragon Pass gazetteer, with tons of info, maps and mini-myths
Barbarian Adventures initial adventures for the Hero Wars in Sartar. For your purposes, though, the useful part are the chapters detailing the tribes and PC connections to them.
Orlanth is Dead! more adventures, but again, you'll probably want it for the clan generation questionnaire.

There's also a smidgen of Heortling stuff in the Hero's Book, but you can probably give that a pass.

I'm not entirely sure how theistic affinities and feats work.  Tell me if this is right . . . [SNIP]

Kind of, but not quite. I'll extend your example, to keep things concrete. All page references are for Thunder Rebels.

This case is slightly complicated, because it draws two affinities from the Aspect and one from the Subcult. A normal initiate would have Initiate of Mastakos Adventurous. With that membership, they get:

all the physical/mental abilities of Orlanth Adventurous (p. 221)[/list:u]

optionally the virtues of OA[/list:u]

the

Combat and Movement affinities of OA[/list:u]

the physical abilites of Mastakos (p. 224)[/list:u]

the

Westfaring Movement affinity of Mastakos[/list:u]

The confusing bit is that Mastakos also supplies a couple of Movement feats - not the affinity, but feats within it. Most of the time those don't matter for an initiate.

An initiate has the affinities of their cult. They can use that as a magical augment on some other ability (like augmenting Sticks to Plastic with a Mucous affinity. Fr'instance.) They cannot use it as an active ability, only as an augment.

They can improvise feats from within that affinity, at a hefty penalty. They can never learn such feats ('cement' them) - every time, they have to improvise. Now depending on your interpretation, you could limit initiates to the printed list - but notice in the case of Mastakos, they have not only the feats you mentioned, but also those supplied by OA.

When you say 'people with concentrated magic,' well, it depends. An initiate can have concentrated magic, but they still cannot buy feats as abilities. The only advantage is they have an easier time improvising. (...well, they also can use their Common Magic Feats actively, but that's a can o' worms I'm not going to open right now.)

Devotees, who by definition have concentrated magic, have everything listed above for initiates. They also have some feats within the affinities, which they can use as active abilities.

Additionally, a devotee can improvise new feats, and attempt to learn them permanently. The difficulty of this task is up to the GM. It could involve discovering some reclusive hero cult, or going on a heroquest.

See pages 118 and 120 of HeroQuest for more on this. Does this help clear things up at all?

Whew. Long response. I'm gonna break here, then try to answer the rest later...

[Harrek]

Installment II...

Now it gets complicated.  As narrator I (and the players once they catch on) can add stuff on? [SNIP] This isn't just allowed, it's encouraged, yes?

Here you've got the right idea. Everyone can add new things - don't feel limited by what's printed in the book. That's what YGWV means. And it's not limited to feats. You can add skills, magic items, anything you can think of.

The only thing I'm leery of in your example is, as you say, the 'Champions-ish' tone. In many other games, each ability is carrying its own rules baggage. HQ isn't like that. If you want to add restrictions, I'd suggest having the subcult impose a personality trait or a flaw, much like a Guardian does (p. 94). Break the restriction, and you lose the magic, at least temporarily.

Also, theistic feats don't normally work as 'group augments.' Wizardry has blessings that behave something like that. (Or did you mean that all members of the group are Humakti that have learned this feat?) Theistic magic works by emulating/re-enacting the mythic acts of your deity, so it is personal. You can augment one another, but you cannot typical augment more than one person at a time.

One option, though, is to define it as ritual magic (see pp. 101-2). If your band prepares before the battle, they could all gain a bonus. Note that by the book, a ritual takes 1 hour per +3 bonus (p. 102), so that may not be what you're looking for.

Of course, don't let me tell you the 'right' way to do things, either. If you and your players like the other approach, go for it.

I'm still struggling to understand the Wizard plane. [SNIP] To what extent do we pick from a list versus adding our own.

Wizardry is complicated. Let's break it down a bit.

First off, prayer isn't quite the right term. Liturgists can invoke blessings and curses by reading from a scripture. Orderlies cast spells learned from a formulary by using talismans. Adepts also cast spells using talismans, but theirs are contained in more powerful grimoires.

The main difference between liturgical effects (blessings/curses) and spells is that the latter can be used actively. The former cannot - they only serve as an augment. Oh, one other difference: blessings apply to an entire congregation.

As far as setting rationale, liturgists are drawing power from the Invisible God directly. That's very difficult, and explains the relative weakness of their effects. Orderlies, OTOH, benefit from the intercession of a Saint, which eases the task of casting magic. Adepts follow methods established by their Founder in a grimoire, which allow them even more power.

You can think of the three divisions as the typical Medieval European fantasy schtick: the flock/clergy, the monks, and the wizards. (For 'monks' include groups like the Templars and Hospitallers). There are other groups, as well: pagans (anyone not participating in Monotheism), heretics (Monotheists following mistaken beliefs) and sorcerers (Adepts no longer under the aegis of the church).

A couple other important things about Wizardry: first, the effects are more literal than theistic feats. Spells cannot be improvised. The example given in the book is Boil Water not being usable on blood (p. 161). A similarly named feat could be used on blood, perhaps with an improvisational penalty.

Second, orderlies must 'recharge' their spells. A given talisman can only cast a spell once between religious services, which are normally once per week. Feats can be used at will, as often as desired. (As can spells when cast by an Adept.)

So what's the advantage over theism? Well, for one thing, each spell is a separate ability, and thus you could potentially augment with all of them in a single contest. A devotee can only use one feat per affinity as augments on any single ability.

One subtle difference that's not quite conveyed by the rules: the bulk of the population in a Monotheistic land are lay members. The only magic they have are a few weekly blessings, and possibly some common magic. In a typical Polytheistic culture, many if not all of the adults are at least initiates. (That's the case with the Heortlings - other theist cultures may have lower levels of initiation.)

Because spells come from books, this is one area where you might want to restrict abilities to a pre-defined list. It is very difficult to discover new spells. More typically, sorcerers look for additional grimoires associated with their founder. Most grimoires are known and jealously guarded, so this isn't much easier. See pp. 164-5 for more on this. Being able to write a grimoire from scratch puts a character on par with a Founder - very big mojo.

The Heortling fear sorcery as soul draining?  Sorcerers often practice evil "tapping?"  There are no details.  And why don't the churches do that, too?

Tapping and Sorcery haven't really been detailed for HW/HQ. In RuneQuest III, Sorcerers had a spell called tap that let them draw energy from creatures to power their spells. (In mechanical terms, they sucked attribute points away and turned them into magic points.) The practice is almost universally condemned.

Note that westerners distinguish between 'good' wizards, and 'bad' sorcerers. To everyone else, the distinction is meaningless: they're all evil. Heortlings call them 'meldeks' - which means 'emptied.'

Time for another break...

[rylen dreskin]

Thanks Harrek and Alai.  I appreciate you taking the time to answer a huge set of questions.  I'm trying to keep it shorter in the future.

I've sent away for several books.  Not as expensive as I'd feared, but Barbarian Adventures is out of print.

OK --
An initiate automatically gets the the virtues (patient, boastful, etc), physical abilities, mental abilities, and affinities of that subcult.  Also the affinities of the cult.  But maybe not all the virtues of the main cult.  Check.

Theism is an individual taking on the role and aspects of the god.  I'd been focusing on a communal level from my KoDP games.  I can have a band prepare for a campaign (not just a battle) with a ritual.  But it would probaly take a day and give people a bonus for several days.

(Elsewhere a liturgical blessing could effect a lot of people much more quickly?)

I think I see how Wizardry works now.  And I'll keep beleiving that until I try to run some.

Thanks again.

Rylen

[buserian]

I'm still struggling to understand the Wizard plane. [SNIP] To what extent do we pick from a list versus adding our own.

Wizardry is complicated. Let's break it down a bit.

First off, prayer isn't quite the right term. Liturgists can invoke blessings and curses by reading from a scripture. Orderlies cast spells learned from a formulary by using talismans. Adepts also cast spells using talismans, but theirs are contained in more powerful grimoires.

The main difference between liturgical effects (blessings/curses) and spells is that the latter can be used actively. The former cannot - they only serve as an augment. Oh, one other difference: blessings apply to an entire congregation.

Usually, anyway. Some blessings, such as Bless Marriage, actually apply only to the man and woman being married, even though the whole congregation participates in and supports the rite. By extension, some blessings can probably be performed on individual orderlies or small groups, even though the whole order might support the rite.

buserian

[buserian]

Not as expensive as I'd feared, but Barbarian Adventures is out of print.

You should try to find it if you can. It is only recently out of print, so some stores might still be able to special order it from their distributor.

OK --
An initiate automatically gets the the virtues (patient, boastful, etc), physical abilities, mental abilities, and affinities of that subcult.  Also the affinities of the cult.  But maybe not all the virtues of the main cult.  Check.

Clarification -- he can choose to take any, all, or none of the physical abilities, mental abilities, virtues, or relationships, of both the aspect and the subcult; He is not required to take any of them (except such things as Soul Vision, Initiate of <God>, etc.).

Theism is an individual taking on the role and aspects of the god.  I'd been focusing on a communal level from my KoDP games.  I can have a band prepare for a campaign (not just a battle) with a ritual.  But it would probaly take a day and give people a bonus for several days.

A ritual is exactly appropriate then. Though I wouldn't give them a +72 bonus for spending a whole day ...

(Elsewhere a liturgical blessing could effect a lot of people much more quickly?)

Yes. But, because the penalty for affecting 10 people is more than the bonus gained from those 10 people, such blessings are not always successful. If your whole clan provides support for the ritual that will only affect 10 people, you have a distinct bonus.

Also, keep in mind the ramifications of the community support table -- if the whole clan provides Total Support, and the Humakti fail, the zombies will likely overrun the whole clan. If the clan only gives moderate support, they are insulated to a great effect from the failure of the Humakti. Clans are very careful about who they support, and how much.

buserian

[Alai]

Theism is an individual taking on the role and aspects of the god.  I'd been focusing on a communal level from my KoDP games.  I can have a band prepare for a campaign (not just a battle) with a ritual.  But it would probaly take a day and give people a bonus for several days.

Or potentially even longer:  it's determined by how big a bonus you want on the one hand, and what specific ritual you have to hand for the purpose (or "is customary" to use in a given circumstance).  Thin end of a very thick heroquesting wedge, of course...

To what degree theism is about emulation of one's god specifically is I think something that varies significantly.  The Heortlings are very much into this (so-and-so spoke as Umath, nutted someone as Vadrus, etc..) and the modern capital-L Lunars to a degree too.  OTOH as I understand it, traditionalist Dara Happan solar religion is very _against_ this, and is very much focused on ritual and sacrifice. I think Greg specifically cited that Yelmgatha, the last "solar" DH emperor who 5/6 identified himself with his god, was seen as pretty heretical for doing so in some quarters. (An obvious comparison is the Vedic religion vs. Hinduism.)  But I wander increasingly deeply into Gloranthan trivia, and non-canon hearsay and speculation at that.

[Harrek]

I hope to get around to the rest of your questions, Rylen, but this is just a quick note.

In last night's game I bumped into a couple pages that may help you. To tell the truth, I always forget they're there, and can never find them when I do remember.

Take a look at pp. 100-1 of the core rulebook. I'm referring to the two tables in particular: Modifiers to Magic and Inherently Difficult Magic. They have some useful numbers if you wanted to use a feat as you described.

The rules don't forbid feats working on groups, nor should they, 'cause for many of them it makes perfect sense (like Selven Hara's Calm Strangers, to pick a random example). It's just a combat blessing like you wanted 'feels' more like Wizardry to me, or a ritual. It's your game, so go with what feels right to you.

[rylen dreskin]

I'm trying to take smaller bites now.

I'll check out the pages you mentioned.  I'm not sure I'll be really comfortable until I run through things a few times.  'till then there'll be surprises.  Like what happened with the deer.

The rules don't forbid feats working on groups, nor should they, 'cause for many of them it makes perfect sense (like Selven Hara's Calm Strangers, to pick a random example). It's just a combat blessing like you wanted 'feels' more like Wizardry to me, or a ritual. It's your game, so go with what feels right to you.

I want a good sense of the default feel before I start tweaking things around.

I'd guess a sorcerous calm strangers works to alter a strangers mood, a direct effect on the victim.  A theistic calm strangers eminates from the user and puts strangers at ease.  

An animistic calm stranger would involve spirits serving drinks.

Rylen

[Alai]

I'm not sure I'll be really comfortable until I run through things a few times.

Very true I think. Not that I think it's in any way inherently difficult, just that there's a certain sense of the 'ominously undefined' in places. Really it's just a matter of, deciding what you need to clearly identity for yourself, and otherwise not to sweat the proverbial small stuff.

In more concrete terms: if your players are also familiar with KoDP, look at expanding out your terms of reference from there, and finding out what they, also, most want to define and explore about the game world (and in what manner). Orient your prep around that. The clan-gen is again an excellent feeder here, as it provides you (explicitly) with in-game info about what'lll motivate them (and implicitly, assorted out of game cues too). And one can always do this informally, short of full 'let's actually play now' session, if you prefer to feel your way in. And likewise character generator (jointly or severally).

As has been pointed out, there's any amount of online material about this and that obscure aspect of Glorantha, but equally it's a vale of tears to hope to marshall it into a single, coherent, consistent and readily-accessible resource. (Or if you ever do, please telll me!) Player temperaments admittedly vary quite a bit in such regard, but don't be too quick to rule out explicitly solicting co-creation input (not to say, "Hey, I dunno, haven't worked that bit out yet...") as a viable tactic if you ever run out of inspiration on what seems like a key detail.

I'd guess a sorcerous calm strangers works to alter a strangers mood, a direct effect on the victim.  A theistic calm strangers eminates from the user and puts strangers at ease.  

An animistic calm stranger would involve spirits serving drinks.

Excellent examples, actually.  In most Heortling games, mind you, it's more commonly a matter of nuancing the shades of distinction between this god's magic, and that god's. (Animists are those high-smelling low-lifes you occasionally see in the wilds that do all that frenized dancing and whooping, and sorcerors are those evil meldeks we won't have around here, thanks very much...)

Cheers,
Alex.