Split upon the alternate priority system for Middle Earth..

[Ingenious]

Good ideas guys.
I'm glad to see my idea evolving with the help I'm getting.

Although I am too inebriated at the moment to seriously sift through the pertinent information and possibly playtest Grin's weapon stats..(though still trying to do so..)
And Caz, check your inbox because I want to see your weapon stats too.

I can't honestly see any bullet doing over 10 damage. Even at max starting TO that's a level 2 or 3 wound. So 'armor' has to be considered as well.

The idea of not using the priorities as the original is interesting... the players could just choose what they want to be and their SA's and so forth...
But I still think a mail clerk would be piss-poor in terms of weapons training, and also physical attributes, etc etc. His mental attributes and mental-based skills would be higher though as a result.. Compare that to Joe the Farmer who's a grunt and doesn't know 3+3..but can shoot the hell out of someone.. Which is why some of the attributes sytem *must* be kept.. obviously.

Also, I just wanted some alternatives to seperate the 'heroes' from the 'zeroes' by replacing race(since everyone is going to be human)..and the fact that social class *can* be included changes things slightly.
Perhaps the job aspect of things is relative to the character, his SA's.. etc.

An interesting thought occured to me, perhaps I should award medals just like the real military does for certain actions and the occasional 'above and beyond the call of duty' situation.. perhaps this can manifest itself through the boosting of either the optional influence factor, or by boosting SA's or insight points.. or boosting a stat or two or skill outright? *Shrug*

Anyone else got any suggestions?
I also like the fact that some of you are thinking in terms of historical weapons like the Garand, BAR, the various MG's etc. Now let's sit down and tweak it a bit. Since a round is 1 second(or two depending on how often I want bullets flying about).. is the time between shots too much, or too little?
But I absolutely am astounded at Grin's ingeniousness at the randomness of burst fire.. and distributing it like falling damage.. however, that presents a problem. Wound levels must stack in random falling damage in order for them to be effective. If an automatic weapon does 10 damage.. that's 10 points randomly distributed.. meaning that 10 areas can have a single level 1 wound.. which means someone got 10 shots off as compared to however many he should have fired initially. Perhaps we just roll to find out however many areas are hit as there are bullets. For example.. someone gets 4 shots off in an exchange.. and that hits 4 areas.. and the damage rating is 10.. that's saying there should be at least 2 level 3's and 2 level 2's...

Other than that.. I have nooooo clue what to comment on next..
-Ingenious

[GaGrin]

I agree with your statment on bullet damage.

The reason for the high DR in the MG's is to represent lots of bullets in the fewest rolls possible (making lots of to-hit and wound rolls seperately would be a pain in the arse!).

so, that 10 damage on the MG is not hitting one location...

...actually i've just seen a loop hole in these rules (bugger).

If the damage is "as a fall" then where does TO come in?

Then again, should TO matter versus modern guns?  Medical science states that gunshot wounds are mostly a matter of pure luck, unlike more traditional forms of making large holes in people.

Whatcha think?

[Caz]

Haven't gotten a PM from you yet ingenious.  Yeah, 10 is way too high.  With fire arms you have to use mods vs AV.  You have to balance the actual DR with TO, possible # of successes, possibility of wounding/killing balance, etc., just like a normal weapon.  The DR is based on the size and type of projectile perforating the character.  But adding, for example, +4 vs AV is what separates a high velocity, dense bullet from an arrow, showing its true power and penetrative capability.

[Sneaky Git]

Alas, Kaelin if you were a pilot in WW1(largely a volunteer thing back then).. and continued to serve until WW2.. you would still be a pilot. Regardless of your social class. Say you were 18 at the end of WW1, and WW2 broke out in 1939.. that's only 11-12 years..

Eh?  11-12 years?  How's that?

Not to be a total nudge, but, shouldn't we be talking a difference of 20+ years?  Hostilities end (WWI) 11 Nov 1918...and the invasion of Poland (WWII) begins 1 Sep 1939.  Sure, the Japanese invaded China in 1937 (unless you consider the Mukden Incident of 1931 to be the beginning) and Franco was throwing his party in Spain (1936-1939)...but...?

And if you want to play Americans, you're really not going to be involved until Pearl Harbor (with the odd exception like the AVG in China and the Eagle Squadrons in England...or individuals who joined the Canadian military).

[Ingenious]

Yea well... Blah.
You're right... and I was most likely off my rocker at that time.

Anyways, I have to check my email to see if Caz has sent me his stuff yet..
And I also need to get my ass in gear and work on that theif supplement thing. But that comes after I finish working from 9am-3pm and then going to school from 530pm-1030pm..

Damned time. Not enough of it to go around for me. This also cuts into my flight training, homework, etc etc etc.
All for a dismal 7.50 an hour and *NO* benefits/insurance.

It's still better than nothing, so I'll take what I can get.
-Ingenious

[Turin]

Another Idea for Automatic Fire:

Atn is to be very low (3?)

The sucesses are how many rounds were on target (or maybe sucesses/2)

Each round on target is treated as a specific wound with a damage of 7 for submachinegun fire, 8-9 for LMG's, 10 for .50 Caliber.

The only problem is there is no damage variance to the autofire bullets except where they hit.  Could roll an additional D6, 1= -2 dam, -2 = -1 dam, 3-4 = no diff, 5 = +1 dam, 6 = +2 damage

Range though should probably be +1 every 5-10 yards for hand held full auto fire.

Also, (don't have any info in front, guestimating) most WWII autofire weapons should have a rounds per minute of at least 300 - which means 5 rounds for a 1 second burst would not be unusual.

What about a swathe type of fire?  From one target to another? I would think you could keep the trigger pressed and hit antother target which is in a reasonable proximity to the other target in you arc of fire.  Reduced accuracy and jamming should certainly be issues, though.

I think the ATN's for rifles should be higher, a 5 or 6.

The one problem with the sucess mechanics, however.  The lesser amount of sucesses at long range in TROS IMO represent both decreased accuracy and reduced penetrating power.  However with a fire arm, damage would not be effected much at all with range.  The only thing to effect damage with a firearm much is where you are hit, and some luck.  I.E. you were hit it the stomach, true but were lucky and the bullet missed any major arteries.

[Ingenious]

I think it is more realistic/logical to take the option of random hit locations when dealing with full auto fire. You aren't intently aiming at any specific body part when doing so, and you can't aim between shots because the time-gap is faaar too short for human reflexes to deal with that much recoil.

Another flaw I see with #of successes dictating how many bullets hit is this: what if a player rolls more successes than a gun is supposed to be capable of? Hmmm?

And also, couple that with an ATN of 3 and that's insane. Even using # of successes divided by 2. What if I had 10 dice to throw? That's basically telling me that 70% of my shots are going to hit.. all of those with a minimum damage of 7. If an opponent has average toughness(4), that's going to be 7 level 3 wounds. (granted your MP/gun pool wont be nearly that high, since you ARE shooting automatically...)

I like the random hit location thing alot better.. I just have to look into that more. I'm probably thinking on making a new gun-relating damage table/hit location diagram.. based on a D20, or 12, etc.(yea yea, boo me all you want) But I want more hit locations that the current piercing table can handle.
Thoughts on this?

The bigger dilemma is me struggling with "what matters most in firing a gun? A character's skill, the luck factor.. or what kind of gun it is?"
I think a good blend of all of these would be the answer.. but how the crap am I supposed to pull that off?

-Ingenious

[Turin]

Another flaw I see with #of successes dictating how many bullets hit is this: what if a player rolls more successes than a gun is supposed to be capable of? Hmmm?

Well, I mentioned 1 per sucess or per 2 sucesses.  Didn't think it out, but one per two sucesses. would probably be better.

And also, couple that with an ATN of 3 and that's insane. Even using # of successes divided by 2. What if I had 10 dice to throw? That's basically telling me that 70% of my shots are going to hit.. all of those with a minimum damage of 7. If an opponent has average toughness(4), that's going to be 7 level 3 wounds

First of all, taking a burst of autofire at point blank range is insane.  And if throwing 10 dice, 7 would be sucesses, which would mean 3 rounds strike.  At point blank range, that does not seem too bad.  

Note also that the effectiveness of hand held autofire would decrease radiply at range.  Go to 40 yards, and you have an ATN of 6 or 10, depending on if 5 or 10 yard increments are used.

The right idea for autofire is for the more accurate the shooter, and/or shorter the range, the more rounds that will be on target.