Kickers and Spiritual Attributes - Brothers? Cousins?

[Judd]

I've been re-reading Sorcerer, getting ready to play after I put together a group in the coming weeks.

The last game I've been running lately has been TROS, and the campaign was shaped by the Spiritual Attributes.  I described them to the players as a way for them to tell me where they wanted to go with a character.

Kickers, if I'm thinking about this clearly, work in much of the same way.  They are a sign-post for the players to put up on the table, telling the GM, "Hey, I want the game to gothere thematically or story-wise.  Let's take the game that way and see what happens."

Both are game mechanics designed to allow the player to scream into the GM's ear and get the game moving in a way so that the player is excited about the direction of the game and when the player is excited, the character gains more depth and most importantly more energy.

What I'd like out of this thread is:

[list=]Any feedback you care to mention about SA's or Kickers that really worked and drove the game and when they fell flat.

Any further ideas of a relationship between the two mechanics.

Other mechanics in other games that do something similiar and how they worked for you at the table.[/list]

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Judd,

My take on the matter is that the specific similarities/differences between the two techniques will depend greatly on the individual group. But given that, let's take a look at their baseline structures.

1. Spiritual attributes look like character descriptors, but they are not. They are metagame indicators of situational importance. Given any conflict whatsoever in-game, it will or will not correspond to none, one, some, or (wow) all of the SAs of the player-characters. The number of SAs involved as well as the current values of the involved ones determine the "music" or sense of relevance of any conflict.

2. Kickers are situations which are expected to reveal, through how the character copes with them, essential moral points about that character. That process may be fast or slow. It may involve massive back-story revelations, or none at all. It may involve radical reevaluations by the player of what the character is "about," or it may simply express the original concept.

Difference #1: Kickers are a one-time thing per "reward unit" of playing Sorcerer. Although they prompt action, they may or may not be related, directly, to other conflicts or issues that crop up during play. Some Kickers may even "fade away" in favor of a conflict which they've led to, which itself takes the place of the Kicker in terms of the reward system. Such a Kicker is more like a door. Whereas others are looming and urgent problems which absolutely take over any other issues during play.

SAs, by contrast, are ongoing and apply (numerically) to any conflict in play (I hope you see that "does not apply, i.e. this SA is unusable right now, is still "applying numerically").

Difference #2: Kickers are not quantitative. They are composed of scene-framing and much Director Stance, as a bridge between character creation and scenario preparation. SAs are of course fully and only expressed as quantitative features of play, during play. Thus Kickers are primarily Explorative and SAs are primarily metagame.

Similarity #1: Neither Kicker nor SA represents actual motivation of the character except insofar as the player wants it to, at a given moment of play. The Kicker isn't motivation because it's defined strictly in terms of external crisis; how the character responds is wholly up the player on a per-scene or even per-second basis. The SAs are not motivations because they can be dropped to 0 and even eliminated whenever a player feels like it - even if faced with something that "should" ramp an SA into full-blown bonus mode.

As I say, though, any features of a Kicker and any SA may be upgraded into a character motivation insofar as a player sees fit.

Similarity #2: Both Kickers and SAs are intimately related to the improvement mechanics of their respective games. In TROS, one "spends down" SAs in order to improve one's character as well as upgrading the potential of one's future character (note, however, that the skill system in this game improves independently). In Sorcerer, one must resolve one's Kicker in order to roll Humanity against one's other scores to improve one of them, and also in order to re-write descriptors (there is no other improvement mechanic in Sorcerer except these).

They differ a little bit in this category, though, because Sorcerer's improvement mechanics apply rarely and between-play, whereas TROS' potentially apply at any time during and between play.

Similarity #3: Both Kickers and SAs are authored by the players of their characters, and both are expected to act as major constraints and opportunities (same thing, in my particular personal mind-space) on the GM, when preparing and playing. A GM who ignored either would literally be breaking Social Contract via violating Creative Agenda, for either game, and for the same reasons. Similarly, a player who ignored either the Kicker dictum that it must change the character's life permanently, or the opportunities for roll bonuses afforded by SAs, is not simply "playing my way" - he or she is literally diminishing the fun of everyone else at the table, by breaking expectations that are intrinsic to each game (i.e. such a thing would constitute serious Drift, which is intolerable unless agreed upon by everyone).

Anyway, those are my opening thoughts. Judd, does this help at all, or did you want to compare the two Techniques in some different way?

Best,
Ron

[Judd]

Anyway, those are my opening thoughts. Judd, does this help at all, or did you want to compare the two Techniques in some different way?

No, Ron, that write-up was great and gives me more to think about.  I'll respond after all of that has sunk in a bit.

[Akamaru]

I'd appreciate a short explanation of a rule or feature of a specific RPG whenever writing about things like this. I've never played TROS or Sorcerer and even Mr. Edwards reply doesn't give me a complete idea of what SA's or Kickers are.
After a short browse the TROS website provided me with an adequate introduction to SA's, but sadly Sorcerer Online had nothing about Kickers.

[Judd]

I'd appreciate a short explanation of a rule or feature of a specific RPG whenever writing about things like this. I've never played TROS or Sorcerer and even Mr. Edwards reply doesn't give me a complete idea of what SA's or Kickers are.
After a short browse the TROS website provided me with an adequate introduction to SA's, but sadly Sorcerer Online had nothing about Kickers.

Welcome to the Forge, Akamaru.

SA's are a fantastic statistic on the TROS character sheet that activate when a situation comes up.  When I explain this to players new to the concept I usually use Inigo Montoya as an example.

He became a much better swordsman and gained dramatic power when he was on the trail of his father's killer.  Picture a player making the character that way on purpose.  That is what SA's are.  

A Kicker is an event the player creates to start off the Sorcerer adventure.  

Both are methods for the player to tell the GM where they want the game to go dramatically.  I'm really impressed with both game's ability to facilitate communication between the GM and players.

Both are worth picking up.   Run, don't walk and check 'em out.