Contain

[Nev the Deranged]

Okay, the rules for Contains are pretty vague. No actual mechanics in there aside from something nonspecific about Lore rolls or something.

The actual line (p89) says:
"The sorcerer must prepare the focus for the Containment, such as a pentagram, adding a bonus die for every successful Lore roll against his or her own Stamina, which represents the concentration necessary."

Okay... how many rolls? When? for what in-game actions?

It then goes on to say:
"The Containment isn't tested until the demon challenges it, which then determines whether it was well made or not by a Basic Success roll."

What's a Basic Success roll? Rolling what? Against what? Is there a way to establish the Containment Strength that I'm missing in the first part?

Am I to assume this is one of the "open concepts" of the game, and I should apply mechanics to it as I see fit based on what the thematic/flavor/color suggests?

I don't have any problem with doing that kind of thing, really, it's cool to be able to tailor the loose mechanical framework to your needs, but it's sometimes frustrating looking to the text for guidance when it doesn't always explicitly state "tweak to taste" or whatever next to passages where one normally expects to find a chart or at the least a boldface rule saying "do it *this* way". I'm fully willing to embrace Sorcerer as a bold step away from "standard" RPGs in a groovy direction, but I for one am finding the text sometimes a little less than helpful in making the transition despite my willingness to come along for the ride.

I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, and having Ron here for guidance certainly ameliorates 98% of these issues. Maybe I'm just slow on the uptake, I don't know. Certainly I'm a victim of years of poring over Gamist RPG manuals and coming to expect certain information to be presented in a certain way. But dammit, I am going to figure this game out, come hell or high water, and I am going to run it. If it turns out I'm not cut out for it, so be it, but it won't be for lack of perseverance.

*makes growly determined face*

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Nev,

Well, as usual, I don't think the rules are vague at all. They provide the mechanics in full. But there's no point at all in debating that.

Here are the threads to review:
Rules question on Contains - the meat
Sorcerer: breaking the Binding and the Binding strength and Quick summoning question - both full of important rules points, with a suble nod to Contain at the end

Let me know if you have any questions after checkin' these out.

Best,
Ron

[Nev the Deranged]

Okay, I typed out a really long ass reply and the Forge ate it. I am peeved. Nevertheless, I will attempt to type it all out again. *sigh*

I read the threads. Now I have more questions than before, although not all about Contains.

First. According to the threads, the basic roll for Contains is Lore vs. Power. That's fine.

So. Lore vs. Power for the main Contain roll. All well and good. I assume that the victories from this roll become the "Contain Strength", and that when the demon tests the limits of the Contain, they roll Power vs. Contain Strength. Would this be correct?

Given that Contains generated through a Lore vs. Power roll would likely be pretty wussy, you'd definitely want some bonuses pouring into that sucker. So, as I understand it based on the threads you suggested, the available methods for boosting the Contain roll are:

1) Preparation, which seems like a gimme to me, since all someone has to do is describe what they do to prep, and, I guess, have enough time and access in-game to actually do it. But what is the actual roll for Prep bonuses?
**EDIT: I think I was a little fuzzy on this one... it wouldn't be a roll, just some bonus dice assigned by the GM for good role-playing, right?**

2) Available ONLY for Contains (not sure why), Lore vs. (own) Stamina, to represent the sorcerer applying knowledge in excess of their physical limits. The victories from this roll (presumably a one-time attempt) carry over to the main Lore vs. Power roll for the Contain, right?

3) You mentioned something about a Stamina bonus for rituals longer than an hour (for any ritual)... what's the actual roll? Stamina vs... what? Lore maybe, to represent that the sorcerer has the strength to do whatever is necessary to complete the ritual... sort of the opposite-coin-face of #2...?

My point about the text being frustrating is that I got all this from the threads, not from the book. This information does not appear under the Contain heading in the chapter on sorcery in the text, where I don't think it unreasonable to expect that it would. If it can be found elsewhere in the text I haven't run across it yet. I mean, it's kind of hinted at, but there is no line saying "This is how you do this thing" in boldface, or even buried in the regular text. All the information on how to do everything may be in the book somewhere, but it's frequently not where I would expect to find it, or even all in one place. I often feel like I'm trying to put together one of those puzzles that turns into a board game of some kind when you get it all together. And worse, I keep sounding whiny and ungrateful in my posts >.<

Oh yeah, a few more Contain questions. Can sorcerers break Contains made by themselves or by others? Is there a roll or is it just a matter of "smash the urn" or "scrub out a corner of the pentagram" kind of thing?

And how often can a demon try to break a Contain? Does this just depend on the setting? I mean, it seems like even if the demon can only try once a day, it still isn't going to be Contained for very long, unless it's one hell of a Contain job or the demon is really unlucky (or really wimpy?). I will admit I haven't run any test scenarios to check out how potent a Contain is likely to be... does anyone have any examples from play they can point out to me?

Whew. Anyway...

Moving on to the other threads, I am now confused about something I wasn't confused about before.

You say a demon can be Elsewhere but still Bound... but I could swear I read (can't seem to find it now) that a demon that was Bound when it was Banished (the only way for a demon to get back Elsewhere once Here) was utterly and permanently annhilated from existence... so although I understand that being Bound anchors a demon to our reality, and thus it makes sense for (the absolute value of) Binding strength to act as a bonus for Contacts and Summons, how does a demon get Elsewhere and still be Bound in the first place?

I have been giving thought to the possibilities of Contacts and Summons of demons that are already Here, but that's setting-paradigm stuff and I can make that work however I want... the basic rules don't really say one way or another, right?

Hokeydokey... that's all I can think of right now, I can't seem to go back to my post without losing this one, so if there were any more questions in it that I still need answered I guess I'll come back to them later.

thanks again for your patience.. I know I've been mister not-getting-it lately. But I am making progress daily! ^_^

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,
[/quote]Lore vs. Power for the main Contain roll. All well and good. I assume that the victories from this roll become the "Contain Strength", and that when the demon tests the limits of the Contain, they roll Power vs. Contain Strength. Would this be correct? [/quote]

Not correct at all. There is no "main" Contain roll. The Contain is set up and the roll is made only when a demon (any demon) challenges it. At that time, you roll the sorcerer's Lore against the demon's Power.
Yes, a sorcerer may die and his untested Contain lives on. Centuries later, when a demon challenges it, his Lore from way back when is utilized.

Given that Contains generated through a Lore vs. Power roll would likely be pretty wussy, you'd definitely want some bonuses pouring into that sucker.

As you can see, your basic assumption is flawed - since the Contain's strength is the sorcerer's Lore, there's nothing wussy about it (i.e. it's not filtered through an opposed roll already).

... the available methods for boosting the Contain roll are:

1) Preparation, which seems like a gimme to me, since all someone has to do is describe what they do to prep, and, I guess, have enough time and access in-game to actually do it. But what is the actual roll for Prep bonuses?
**EDIT: I think I was a little fuzzy on this one... it wouldn't be a roll, just some bonus dice assigned by the GM for good role-playing, right?**

Actually, it's more concrete than that. See the bonuses for extra prep that apply to all the rituals, listed in the text.

2) Available ONLY for Contains (not sure why), Lore vs. (own) Stamina, to represent the sorcerer applying knowledge in excess of their physical limits. The victories from this roll (presumably a one-time attempt) carry over to the main Lore vs. Power roll for the Contain, right?

They carry over to the Lore used for the Contain's strength against demon challenges, yes. The attempt is one-time, but the bonuses, if any, apply to that value permanently.

3) You mentioned something about a Stamina bonus for rituals longer than an hour (for any ritual)... what's the actual roll? Stamina vs... what? Lore maybe, to represent that the sorcerer has the strength to do whatever is necessary to complete the ritual... sort of the opposite-coin-face of #2...?

Actually, that is right there in the rules. Check it out there.

My point about the text being frustrating is that I got all this from the threads, not from the book. This information does not appear under the Contain heading in the chapter on sorcery in the text, where I don't think it unreasonable to expect that it would. If it can be found elsewhere in the text I haven't run across it yet. I mean, it's kind of hinted at, but there is no line saying "This is how you do this thing" in boldface, or even buried in the regular text.

Sorry man, we disagree. This is like when you complained that the character creation process isn't laid out in an easy list, whereas the list sits right there on the first page of Chapter 2, Characters. The information about rituals in general is in the section on rituals in general (near the Sorcery Chart); the information on Contain specifically is in the Contain section.

Can sorcerers break Contains made by themselves or by others? Is there a roll or is it just a matter of "smash the urn" or "scrub out a corner of the pentagram" kind of thing?

Depends on the sorcery definitions and various special effects. Which is a way of saying that the Lore/strength dice of the Contain may be subject to disruption via all manner of tactics, which means all manner of scores (hell, a Contain based on a computer program might be challenged via a Cover) - again, it depends. This is a classic "customize" question.
In our necromancy game, I would have suggested that a sorcerer could use his or her Lore score to disrupt or suspend another sorcerer's Contain.

And how often can a demon try to break a Contain? Does this just depend on the setting?

Totally. And as pointed out above, Contains are stronger than you are anticipating.

You say a demon can be Elsewhere but still Bound... but I could swear I read (can't seem to find it now) that a demon that was Bound when it was Banished (the only way for a demon to get back Elsewhere once Here) was utterly and permanently annhilated from existence...

Ask Jesse about stuff he "could swear he read." You're mixing up Banishing with killing. The rules say that a demon who's killed is (a) Banished if it's not currently Bound, but is (b) utterly/really killed if it is Bound at the time. What you're suggesting is emphatically not correct - the text presents Binding, Banishing, and (for that matter) sorcerer's death as completely independent issues.

although I understand that being Bound anchors a demon to our reality, and thus it makes sense for (the absolute value of) Binding strength to act as a bonus for Contacts and Summons, how does a demon get Elsewhere and still be Bound in the first place?

I don't understand the question. Whaddaya mean "how"? That's how it works.

And furthermore, demons do not come from Elsewhere, they come from Not-Anywhere. Big difference. Even if people in the game-world call it another dimension or Hell or something, it's still Not-Anywhere. Demons do not exist, in the game-world. Very important.

I have been giving thought to the possibilities of Contacts and Summons of demons that are already Here, but that's setting-paradigm stuff and I can make that work however I want... the basic rules don't really say one way or another, right?

All customizing, for Contacts. However, I strongly suggest that Summonings not be "fetch demon to me" calling-rituals, basically substituting them for the Travel ability. If you want a demon to be able to be "fetched," build it through a combination of Perception, Travel, and maybe another ability or two.

Best,
Ron

[Nev the Deranged]

Hiya,

Lore vs. Power for the main Contain roll. All well and good. I assume that the victories from this roll become the "Contain Strength", and that when the demon tests the limits of the Contain, they roll Power vs. Contain Strength. Would this be correct?

Not correct at all. There is no "main" Contain roll. The Contain is set up and the roll is made only when a demon (any demon) challenges it. At that time, you roll the sorcerer's Lore against the demon's Power.
Yes, a sorcerer may die and his untested Contain lives on. Centuries later, when a demon challenges it, his Lore from way back when is utilized.

*** Aaaaaaahhhhhhh...... NOW I get it. So the Contain Strength is AUTOMATICALLY equal to the sorcerer's Lore + (Bonuses rolled for whatever). ***

Given that Contains generated through a Lore vs. Power roll would likely be pretty wussy, you'd definitely want some bonuses pouring into that sucker.

As you can see, your basic assumption is flawed - since the Contain's strength is the sorcerer's Lore, there's nothing wussy about it (i.e. it's not filtered through an opposed roll already).

*** Riiiight... okay, that works, much less wussy, yes. ***

... the available methods for boosting the Contain roll are:

1) Preparation, which seems like a gimme to me, since all someone has to do is describe what they do to prep, and, I guess, have enough time and access in-game to actually do it. But what is the actual roll for Prep bonuses?
**EDIT: I think I was a little fuzzy on this one... it wouldn't be a roll, just some bonus dice assigned by the GM for good role-playing, right?**

Actually, it's more concrete than that. See the bonuses for extra prep that apply to all the rituals, listed in the text.

2) Available ONLY for Contains (not sure why), Lore vs. (own) Stamina, to represent the sorcerer applying knowledge in excess of their physical limits. The victories from this roll (presumably a one-time attempt) carry over to the main Lore vs. Power roll for the Contain, right?

They carry over to the Lore used for the Contain's strength against demon challenges, yes. The attempt is one-time, but the bonuses, if any, apply to that value permanently.

*** Cool, so this part, at least, I had more or less right. Groovy. Good to know my head's not completely up my arse. ***

3) You mentioned something about a Stamina bonus for rituals longer than an hour (for any ritual)... what's the actual roll? Stamina vs... what? Lore maybe, to represent that the sorcerer has the strength to do whatever is necessary to complete the ritual... sort of the opposite-coin-face of #2...?

Actually, that is right there in the rules. Check it out there.

My point about the text being frustrating is that I got all this from the threads, not from the book. This information does not appear under the Contain heading in the chapter on sorcery in the text, where I don't think it unreasonable to expect that it would. If it can be found elsewhere in the text I haven't run across it yet. I mean, it's kind of hinted at, but there is no line saying "This is how you do this thing" in boldface, or even buried in the regular text.

Sorry man, we disagree. This is like when you complained that the character creation process isn't laid out in an easy list, whereas the list sits right there on the first page of Chapter 2, Characters. The information about rituals in general is in the section on rituals in general (near the Sorcery Chart); the information on Contain specifically is in the Contain section.

*** Okay... I could quote the entire passage on Contains, but I won't. The "algebraic currency" concept caught me by surprise, and I can see that some of my confusions in other areas may be alleviated by that as well. Perhaps this is a similar case. I will reserve judgement until I have reconsidered my questions in light of recent understandings. ***

Can sorcerers break Contains made by themselves or by others? Is there a roll or is it just a matter of "smash the urn" or "scrub out a corner of the pentagram" kind of thing?

Depends on the sorcery definitions and various special effects. Which is a way of saying that the Lore/strength dice of the Contain may be subject to disruption via all manner of tactics, which means all manner of scores (hell, a Contain based on a computer program might be challenged via a Cover) - again, it depends. This is a classic "customize" question.
In our necromancy game, I would have suggested that a sorcerer could use his or her Lore score to disrupt or suspend another sorcerer's Contain.

*** Okay, customizing I can handle. No sweat. ***

And how often can a demon try to break a Contain? Does this just depend on the setting?

Totally. And as pointed out above, Contains are stronger than you are anticipating.

*** Right. Duly noted. ***

You say a demon can be Elsewhere but still Bound... but I could swear I read (can't seem to find it now) that a demon that was Bound when it was Banished (the only way for a demon to get back Elsewhere once Here) was utterly and permanently annhilated from existence...

Ask Jesse about stuff he "could swear he read." You're mixing up Banishing with killing. The rules say that a demon who's killed is (a) Banished if it's not currently Bound, but is (b) utterly/really killed if it is Bound at the time. What you're suggesting is emphatically not correct - the text presents Binding, Banishing, and (for that matter) sorcerer's death as completely independent issues.

*** Fair enough. I couldn't find the text I was thinking of, and that's probably because I was looking in the wrong section. My bad. ***

although I understand that being Bound anchors a demon to our reality, and thus it makes sense for (the absolute value of) Binding strength to act as a bonus for Contacts and Summons, how does a demon get Elsewhere and still be Bound in the first place?

I don't understand the question. Whaddaya mean "how"? That's how it works.

*** Right, I was only confused about this because of my incorrect recollection explained above. Again, my bad. ***

And furthermore, demons do not come from Elsewhere, they come from Not-Anywhere. Big difference. Even if people in the game-world call it another dimension or Hell or something, it's still Not-Anywhere. Demons do not exist, in the game-world. Very important.

*** Yes, I know that, I was just using "Elsewhere" as a convenient label so that I could complete my sentence without having to explain all that. I could have used "Nowhere" I suppose, or "Not-Anywhere" or whatever, I just happened to pick "Elsewhere" off the top of my head. Fear not, I am very down with the demons-don't-exist thing. Very. ***

I have been giving thought to the possibilities of Contacts and Summons of demons that are already Here, but that's setting-paradigm stuff and I can make that work however I want... the basic rules don't really say one way or another, right?

All customizing, for Contacts. However, I strongly suggest that Summonings not be "fetch demon to me" calling-rituals, basically substituting them for the Travel ability. If you want a demon to be able to be "fetched," build it through a combination of Perception, Travel, and maybe another ability or two.

*** Fair enough. That's more or less how I felt too, that Contacts made sense as sort of a potential "long distance call" kind of thing, while Summons made less sense for materialized demons, because otherwise people would just be Summoning enemy demons into Contains and stuff and it would get lame really quickly. ***

*** Thanks again, I understand some of my errors now, and will go back and reevaluate. I really think much of my confusion is possibly based on false expectations more than incoherency of the text. And I'm fully willing to accept that responsibility. But either way, sometimes I need some help understanding the information the way it's presented. Not because it's wrong or bad, just because it's different than what I'm used to. I've never meant it to sound like I was putting down your work. So if that was contributing to your aforementioned crankity, I apologize sincerely. ***

[Nev the Deranged]

incidentally, I know from long experience that text on a screen always seems more antagonistic or edgy than it's intended, for a variety of reasons I won't bother elucidating here. Also, misunderstandings, both technical and social, are much easier to make (you'd think it'd be the opposite, but...) Anyway..

If I'd come to you (Ron) face to face with this list of questions, I'm sure it would have been a not-unpleasant five minutes out of our day, with me going "Ohhhh, I get it now... cool, thanks!" and everyone going on their merry way.

So, I'm going to assume that's what happened here, because it pretty much did, and pretend that I wasn't irritatingly dense.

^_^ Ciao!

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

All the crankiness wasn't anything to do with you. We's cool.

Best,
Ron

[Nev the Deranged]

Some (more) Contain questions, working from (I hope) a better understanding.

A Contain is established. No roll is made for the basic, unadulterated, 1 hour Contain ritual. The sorcerer's current Lore is established as the strength of the Contain. I know that's not how it's explained in the text, but since a sorcerer's Lore could change after the Contain is set up, I assume the Contain strength would not change because it's based on the knowledge that was used to establish it, not the sorcerer's current knowledge. Therefore it makes sense to assign a separate name for the value, right?

So there is no "Contain roll", instead there is a "Contain-testing-roll". Which is described as Lore vs. Power in the text, but makes more sense to me as Power vs. Lore (or rather, Contain strength), since the demon is the proactive agent and the Contain the passive agent. I know it's just semantics, but I'm wording it so it makes sense to me.

Okay. Assuming I'm correct so far, one can use bonuses to improve the value/strength of the Contain (which although it isn't needed until it's tested, still exists theoretically). These bonuses, unlike the Contain-testing-roll, are made when the Contain is established, and victories or bonus points are added to the value of the Contain strength that will be tested against by the demon, whenever it tries to break it.

Now. One of the potential bonuses for Contains, and indeed, for every Ritual, is the duration bonus, listed on page 86:
"...a sorcerer may choose to take from eight to twenty-four hours to perform a ritual, being very careful in all its details, in which case he or she gains a 1-die bonus to the roll."

The way I read this, it seems to mean that any duration of time beyond 1 hour, regardless of whether it's a shift at Wendy's long or sunrise to sunrise long, nets only one bonus die/point? Or does it mean per hour? Of course this seems like something that might be left to the setting paradigm, too... Or perhaps I'm just being thickheaded again and interpreting it incorrectly.

Also, is this the same or disparate from the Preparation bonus available for any ritual?

.............@.@ Gaaaah... my brain is getting all melty. I've been reading and rereading threads on this for three days now. I've been over the text a hundred times. This is probably insanely simple and I'm beating my head against it until I'm dizzy. It would probably take ten minutes to understand this in person, and I've been stuck on it for nearly a week.

*Sigh*  I have more questions but I can't think any more tonight. If anyone knows where Games Plus is in Mount Prospect and is willing to meet me there (or anywhere close by) some time this week to sit down and explain this to me face to face, that would be great, because this text thing is just frustrating me, and I feel like I'm making an ass of myself every time I type out a fresh batch of "say what now?" questions after someone's tried to spoon feed it to me for the nth time.

If not, then I guess I'll just resume making an ass of myself when I'm better rested and less frazzled. I don't mind looking like an ass as long as it's productive, but this is getting ridiculous.

[Fabrice G.]

Hi Nev,

I think that you're clear about how the Contain works.

About the one-point bonus for the rituals... Yep, if you decide to take your time (that is between 8 and twelve hour), you  do get that one-point bonus.


Take care,

Fabrice

[Nev the Deranged]

I'm feeling better today. Last night was a bit of a breakdown, but I think I will be okay.

I'm going to let this go for now, finish parsing the rest of the book, and see what questions I still have when I'm done. I think perhaps it's too early in my work for the level of reduction I tend to strive for. Especially since I'm thinking Sorcerer kind of needs to be taken as a whole to get the full effect anyway.

So, thanks to everyone who's been gracious enough to put up with my confusion and try to help.

Back to work! ^_^

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I think you're making it more complicated rather than simpler with all the new terms (Contain strength, or whatever), but if it helps you, then that's OK.

Anyway ...

A Contain is established. No roll is made for the basic, unadulterated, 1 hour Contain ritual.

Right.

The sorcerer's current Lore is established as the strength of the Contain. I know that's not how it's explained in the text, but since a sorcerer's Lore could change after the Contain is set up, I assume the Contain strength would not change because it's based on the knowledge that was used to establish it, not the sorcerer's current knowledge. Therefore it makes sense to assign a separate name for the value, right?

I think all of the above is gibble-gabble except for the first sentence, but again, if it helps you to think of this way, that's cool. You are correct regarding the rules-procedure.

Okay. Assuming I'm correct so far, one can use bonuses to improve the value/strength of the Contain (which although it isn't needed until it's tested, still exists theoretically). These bonuses, unlike the Contain-testing-roll, are made when the Contain is established, and victories or bonus points are added to the value of the Contain strength that will be tested against by the demon, whenever it tries to break it.

Right. I still think all this is merely the plain old rules in action, nothing special, but that's just me.

The way I read this, it seems to mean that any duration of time beyond 1 hour, regardless of whether it's a shift at Wendy's long or sunrise to sunrise long, nets only one bonus die/point?

Yup.

Also, is this the same or disparate from the Preparation bonus available for any ritual?

Same thing.

Best,
Ron

[Nev the Deranged]

Hello,

I think you're making it more complicated rather than simpler with all the new terms (Contain strength, or whatever), but if it helps you, then that's OK.

I give it a new label because although it stems from the Lore of the sorcerer who performed it, it is not necessarily the same thing. It is equal to "the Lore of the sorcerer at the time of the Contain being established plus any bonuses". So, to me, it seems like it would be important to make note of separately, since just assuming "Power vs. Lore" isn't always going to give you the same result. As you mentioned, a Contain could theoretically last for centuries after the sorcerer who created it dies.

And even more importantly, I think it will be easier for my players to think of it that way. Sorcerer already has a pretty high style-translation threshhold for players used to other systems, I'd like to ease that for them where I can, even if it's just a matter of flavor.

Anyway ...

A Contain is established. No roll is made for the basic, unadulterated, 1 hour Contain ritual.

Right.

The sorcerer's current Lore is established as the strength of the Contain. I know that's not how it's explained in the text, but since a sorcerer's Lore could change after the Contain is set up, I assume the Contain strength would not change because it's based on the knowledge that was used to establish it, not the sorcerer's current knowledge. Therefore it makes sense to assign a separate name for the value, right?

I think all of the above is gibble-gabble except for the first sentence, but again, if it helps you to think of this way, that's cool. You are correct regarding the rules-procedure.

Well, I think my reasons for doing so are pretty clear above. I guess it's just a matter of style. As long as I have the mechanics down, I'm happy.

Okay. Assuming I'm correct so far, one can use bonuses to improve the value/strength of the Contain (which although it isn't needed until it's tested, still exists theoretically). These bonuses, unlike the Contain-testing-roll, are made when the Contain is established, and victories or bonus points are added to the value of the Contain strength that will be tested against by the demon, whenever it tries to break it.

Right. I still think all this is merely the plain old rules in action, nothing special, but that's just me.

I'm not looking for "something special", just trying to make sure that I understand the "plain old rules" the way you meant them to be applied.

The way I read this, it seems to mean that any duration of time beyond 1 hour, regardless of whether it's a shift at Wendy's long or sunrise to sunrise long, nets only one bonus die/point?

Yup.

Also, is this the same or disparate from the Preparation bonus available for any ritual?

Same thing.

*nods* Alrighty then. Thanks for the clarifications. I feel much better now. ^_^ And I think I got the embedded quote thingie down now.