Yeah baby, It's here!

[Blake Hutchins]

Nothing's wrong with it.  I use it all the time in my own writing.  However, in line with the Sword and Sorcery tropes we're dealing with, I suggest a steady internal monologue that conveys moment-to-moment self-doubt and moral questioning conflicts with the heroic nature of the genre.  In other settings with other heroes, it's absolutely fine.  It formed the center of the Thomas Covenant Chronicles, for example, as well as Richard Monaco's Grail War books.  However, I wonder whether a lot of modern fantasy overuses the technique to dilute their characters. The Wheel of Time and the Shannara books come to mind as noteworthy examples of this perspective producing a saccharine flavor.  There are few unapologetic heroes in the more recent LotR-derivative works, and I think that's what Ron drives at with respect to the sword-and-sorcery subgenre of fantasy.  It's not like guilt can't be used.  Lord knows Elric carried a boatload of it, but the perspective didn't go deeply into his head to use his mental voice to convey that guilt.  Moorcock showed more than told.

And Raven's right -- with Lovecraft it's a necessary approach, since you're dealing most often with the disintegration of the psyche.  Much more interesting to be in the person's head for that ride.

Best,

Blake

[Blake Hutchins]

First person voice is also fine, though it's tricky.  You automatically know the first person narrator will survive the story, since the conceit is that he or she is telling the story to someone else and therefore must survive to do so.  At the same time, it's extremely effective at conveying viewpoint and the inner landscape, as the narrator frequently engages in commentary on people, places, and situations encountered in the course of the tale.  The first Amber series offers a great example, and the Gandalara cycle does a good job, too.  In pulp literature you see this in stuff like the first John Carter of Mars books as well as Raymond Chandler's Marlowe novels.  As a literary technique, it's certainly found its place in the classics -- viz. Moby Dick.  I love writing in first person, but you don't really worry about the main protagonist's survival -- even though there can be other significant stakes for the reader to worry about.

Best,

Blake

[Paul Czege]

Got it! More later...once I've had a chance to read it.

Paul

[joshua neff]

I GOT IT I GOT IT I GOT IT I GOT IT!

*ahem* Sorry. All this talk about it got me all psyched. Too bad I'm going out of town tomorrow--I won't really have time to give it a fair reading until next week.

[Uncle Dark]

On the somewhat off topic "internal monologue" thread:

I don't think it's the monologue itself so much as the stereotyped and shallow stuff it's used to express.  How much self-doubt and teen angst can a reader be expected to stand (ed. note: R. Jordan is still selling, right?)?

I would expect that if someone were to write a story based on a S&S game, the monologue would be quite useful in conveyng the moral dimensions of Humanity.

Lon

[Blake Hutchins]

Yep, that's a better way of putting it.  It's not the tool, but the way it's used.  I did note from my own reading of the source literature Ron cites that the internal voice was rarely present in those stories, hence my speculation about technique.

And yeah, this has been pretty off-topic.  My apologies.

Best,

Blake

[Eric]

FWIW on Internal Dialog:  A third person limited perspective is a requirement for novelizations (Star Trek books and the like); it is right there in guidelines.  

-- Eric, waiting patiently for his copy of S&S

[greyorm]

I got it!  I got it!  I got it!  Yay!  Cheer-cheer!
There it was, in the mailbox!  I tore open the wrapping!  Whoo!

Ok, some quick "I just glanced through it" comments:

My images are *much darker than they should be, sorry; and both internals have an odd grayish cast to them (particularly noticeable on the supposed-to-be white areas).  Not sure how that came about.  Anyone else see that, or is it just my copy?

Urg...the shadow demon pic. really needs a border [fret, fret]

Clinton's right about the color of the cover (damn CMYK!  It's the bane of my existance, too; dulls everything.  Ask the printer about adding a dye-color next time to handle it (though that would increase the cost)). OTOH, it looks almost like a very dark bronze, a bloody metallic color, or thick, dried blood.

The maps...
Hrm, I agree, could be better.  They're just too...Campaign Cartography-looking IMO.  I think they need that brushed, human touch -- that 'penned by hand, by an old world explorer' kinda look.

Related: I can't seem to download the color versions from the site; only about a quarter of them appear on the screen then it says they're done (I tried refreshing and clearing the cache).  Help!

Les Evan's work, as usual, is awesome, and makes the book feel so much more "authentic," true to the roots it is explaining.  Brings me right back to REH's Conan and Weird Tales.

Ron's writing is in fine form, especially the expanded material on running an S&S or fantasy game (skimming it right now, have to absorb it later).  I'm thoroughly impressed, and I see more changes a-comin' to my 3E game.

Ok, more later, once I get a chance to peruse it.
(YAY!  It came!)

[Jürgen Mayer]

I got it, too!
(Which means that Sorcerer & Sword already made it overseas to the game shops of the old world!)

BTW I also spotted Sorcerer copies at one or two booths at the last Essen Game Show, so it doesn't seem to be unknown over here. How does it sell in Europe?

Clinton: Too bad that that color cover was messed up. The brownish look isn't all that eye-catching. But you'll fix that with the next book... Or we will stone you at next GenCon. With giant clams! =)

Jürgen Mayer

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Jurgen,

Apparently Sorcerer has excellent international sales, and a lot of stores across Europe are carrying it. This is great, of course.

What matters now is the re-ordering issue; that is, if copies of the game sell from a particular store, does it get ordered again to fill in the shelf.

Best,
Ron

[Jürgen Mayer]

All I know is that the books in my FLGS' stock are still from the first order. Compared to other small-press games like Little Fears or The Last Exodus it seems to sell a little slower, but I can't imagine what the reason is. I'll keep you updated.

Jürgen Mayer

[hardcoremoose]

Jurgen,

I could suggest one reason - shallow buyer practices.  I'm not naysaying Little Fears or The Last Exodus, but on the surface, their content certainly seems more provocative.  This is most likely a case of Color selling copies, and I suspect Sorcerer would sell at least a little better if paired up with Sorcerer & Sword.  Lets hope gamers can find both in stores so they can make that decision.

- Moose

[ This Message was edited by: hardcoremoose on 2002-01-03 23:35 ]

[Trav]

Ron,  

I basically gave it a quick read, and I think it looks great.  I'll give some more in depth comments on it when I get to read it a little closer.  I plan on running a game of it within the next month.

I just had a chance to play in my first game of Sorcerer a couple nights ago, and I had a lot of fun with that too.  It was funny, because like Moose said that a lot of people overlook Sorcerer, I had a few friends who didn't want to play at all.  After about two hours of hearing how much fun we were having that had to sit down and make a character.  

Trav