[Sorcerer] Actual play threads with the die rolls

[8bitjunkie]

I know, I know...its easy...but I am having a hard time getting the die roll mechanics down on who has the most successes, etc.

My Forge search-fu is weak coming up with this...can someone point me to some Sorcerer actual play threads (or other relevant threads) that have CORRECT die roll examples? I mention correct because I have ran into some threads where Ron had to set them straight later in the posts, hence adding to my confusion.

Also...any tips on speeding up play at the table when the players roll their fistfuls of dice?

[Judd]

Also...any tips on speeding up play at the table when the players roll their fistfuls of dice?

Without thinking about it, we've gotten in the habit of saying our highest 3 rolls out loud as we read the roll, then figure out the severity of the success from there.

[jrs]

Most of the actual play posts I've seen have not included die roll examples.  Here are a few topics with die rolls.  

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9654">Sorcerer: Back to Basics Questions
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10783">[Sorcerer] Various Questions
The above two links each include a straight forward question about number of successes for a sample roll.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=11127">Conflict Resolution, questions and confirmations
This one is more involved and may not be as useful to you.  I'd suggest starting with the actual sample roll http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=11127#119501">here.

There's also information at the Sorcerer website that clarifies an example in the book:  http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com/brochure.php/faq2.html">Rules Questions

Hopefully, some of the above will be helpful.

Julie

[8bitjunkie]

Thanks jrs! Those links helped out a lot - at least I can rest easy in knowing that I have the die rolls down.

Paka, I like that idea and plan on using it =)

[Bailywolf]

For some reason, I always had trouble getting my head around Sorcerer's die mechanics too... don't quite know why though.

It helped me to roll the dice, then line them up in order high to low.  

Then ignore everything but the high die.  

Ditch any ties in the high dice- if you roll 10, 10, 10, 3 and he rolls 10, 10, 10, 7, all the 10's get tossed, and you compare the 3 to the 7.

If the other guy's high die is geater than your high die, then the only die you need to worry about it the high one.  Everythign else you rolled can be ditched.   Every die he has that is greater than your highest die is one Victory for him.  If all his dice are greater than your high die, then he scores a Total Victory (in addition to the actual number of victories) which gets him an added whammy in his outcome.  

Don Mackie is trying to score with an especially hot chick.  His Will is 6 (Manipulative), and his Player describes how Mackie has a match handy right when the lady is pulling out a fresh smoke (+1 bonus dice).  Her Will is 10 (she is a Passer demon of terrible power, and inhuman apetites), and Mackie hasn't looked for a Telltale.

He throws his 7 dice:  10, 10, 7, 7, 6, 5, 3

She throws her 10 dice:  10, 10, 7, 6, 6, 6, 5, 4, 3, 1

The 10's cancel out- ditch them.

The 7's cancel out- ditch them too.

This leaves:

Don:  7, 6, 5, 3

The Girl:   6, 6, 6, 5, 4, 3, 1

Don wins... but how well?

His high 7 is greater than her high 6.  That is 1 Victory.  Move on to his next die, the 6.  This ties with her high 6, so the contest ends there.

Don manages to intrest the girl, but doesn't yet realize she isn't intrested in human mating rituals, but rather in that sweet sweet spinal fluid.


"Having a good time tonight?"

"Hmmm, no... not yet."

"I'm sorry to hear that, but perhaps I can do something to help..."

"Well, I was supposed to meet someone here..."

"Yeah?  This is my place, perhaps I have seen him?"

"Well..."  She looks Don up and down, "He's about six foot, dark, looks good in blue."

"Really... I think I know the guy."



Combat is a little trickier, but the basic die mechanic is the same.


-B

[NickHollingsworth]

Paka

we've gotten in the habit of saying our highest 3 rolls out loud

I'm probably not qualified to comment since I am still trying to manipulate my players into playing Sorcerer, but this is what I'm planning to do ...

It seems to me the easiest way to make resolution pain free is to each announce the size and quantity of your best roll. (Occasionally the size and number of best dice will tie and so you will have to announce the next highest, etc. I'd expect this to be relatively infrequent).

This quickly tells you who won and the order in which everyone acts. It also tells you who the first defender is, ie who the person acting first was attacking. Now you can focus on how many of the winners dice beat the value that that defender just announced, which is the number of victories the defender will take unless they choose to abort their action and reroll to actively defend.

When there are only two participants in a contest the resolution conversation would normally go like this:
A rolls 10, 8, 7, 7, 5, 5, 4, 1
B rolls 7, 7, 7, 6, 2, 2
A: "One ten."
B: "Three sevens."
A: "I've got two victories."
B: "I'll reroll my defense... a five"
A: "Ok, four victories then".

Sometimes, as in Bailywolf's example above, the high values are the same and a bit more info is needed:
A rolls 10, 10, 7, 7, 6, 5, 3
B rolls 10, 10, 7, 6, 6, 6, 5, 4, 3, 1
A: "Two tens."
B: "Two tens; we draw."
A: "Then two sevens."
B: "One seven."
A: "I've got one victory."
B: "I'll suck it up."

I'd expect this to be the fastest approach because the simplicity of concentrating on just a quantity and size of highest roll makes it very fast to spot amoung the dice rolled, vocalise, comprehend and compare. I'd expect the slight delay of potential additional checks and announcements when there is a draw would be more than compensated for the speed of resolution when there isn't one.

Has anyone actually got any hard data on resolution times, either from timing them or via any sort of theory of mathematical handling times?

I would also suggest that this is not the trivial issue it might seem. The less concious thought that resolution needs the less the mechanics intrude on the participants conciousness and the more their conciousness can remain focused on the in game meaning of the result rather than the maths of it.

I'd like to see some information on relative complexity. I would assume its like this, in increasing order of complexity:

comparison (ie is 7 is greater than 4),
counting (ie spotting there are two 7s),
addition (ie what is 7 + 4),
subtraction (ie whats 7 - 4),
multiplication, (ie whats 7 * 4),
division (ie whats 28 / 4).

The further down the list you make the players go the more the mechanics are forced into their conciousness.

[NickHollingsworth]

I should have included sorting in the above list too. I think this is relatively slow. I suspect that this may be why Sorcerer can look like it has a slow handling time, because the examples show quite a few numbers all being sorted and then compared.

I hope to find that in fact it has a fast handling time because most dice can be discarded and the remnants only need to be counted not added etc,

I'm searching for some information on human handling times for the mental pattern matching and maths in the previous post. Best link so far is here on the Forge! Its "Algorithms, complexity and what any of this has to do with R" http://indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=214  (Yep thats thread 214 - back when the Forge was young).

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Nick,

It's fast in practice. The trouble with this claim of mine is that we're all used to people describing BRP or the Hero System as "fast in practice," which really means that they are accustomed to the cognitive leapin' around and built-in waiting. The question is whether the Sorcerer dice system is fast without such an "internalization" being necessary.

Couple observations about that ...

1. Everyone rolls at once and the dice are sitting out for all to see. This allows a group-involved understanding of what's happening, as opposed to "GM does it in his head" bottleneck process.

2. You don't have to sort out all your dice - as you have divined, most of one's dice turn out to be irrelevant, most of the time. So yeah, when all the dice hit the table, someone is sure to sing out whether they got the highest value and how many. Working out the details from there is a matter of seconds.

3. The key is the cognitive difference between Sorcerer's "free and clear" announcement phase and the wait-your-turn announcement+resolution process found in most other games. As usual, it's the experienced gamers who have the hardest time.

Best,
Ron