Bonus on 1-die defense (split)

[Bailywolf]

I have a question for everyone... can you use creative description or currency to boost your 1 die Hail Mary defense action?

For example, say a clever player describes his character's action in the combat round thus:

"I'll use Snake and Crane in combination, striking with Crane Bill and confusing my opponent with Crane Through the Rushes"

In resolving the action, he has to eat an attack from a second opponent after striking the first, but narrates, "I recover from Crane Bill, and sway my body with Snake Form technique to make myself more difficult to strike."  Could he get a die or two to his single default defense die?  Could he roll Victories from his attack action into this defense roll because he described a cool offensive/defensive combo? Or once spent- in this case, on damage- are those dice/victories gone?

Could he use the combat options from Sorcerer & Sword (if they are in play) to boost a default defensive action rather than the main action of a round?  As above, but the description is used on a roll of a Martial Artist Background/Cover.

-Ben

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

The principle of your suggested bonus is permitted, but frankly, your example doesn't cut it in the slightest. The character was already committed to a snake/crane thing in the intention phase, and the whole point of a single-die defense is that it's unplanned by the character - literally a "desperation duck."

I'd only award the bonus die if the narration literally brings something new into play, specifically one or more of the following:

a) using a pre-existing element of play, probably from a previous scene or description of the immediate environment or even of the opponent, into the sudden defense - but not some aspect of the already-announced intended action

b) describing the sudden defense in some value-adding way - this does not mean "elaborate," but rather that it makes people around the table grunt or clap (too many people seem to think that bonus dice in Sorcerer are gained from lengthy description, which I consider to be boring)

c) illuminating some aspect of the player-character's personality that was not apparent in the originally-announced action

The combat options from Sorcerer & Sword are indeed available. I hope you can see that saving a bunch of victories is a very, very amazing thing because it means your one-die defenses suddenly become more reliably effective.

I'm a little surprised that you didn't ask about plain old bog-standard bonus dice from previous rolls or perhaps from penalties that the opponent is dealing with. Those count too, if their respective requirements are met.

Best,
Ron

[Bailywolf]

Gotcha.

Sorry about the weak example.

With an S&S setup roll, it might go:

"I'll sweep their blades aside with my barbarian strength, and leap inside their guard with pantherish speed"

The victories for which will roll right into the 1 die default defense.  The character's attack roll would then be an unmodified normal roll (baring additional bonus dice).

I assumed previous setup type actions would contribute to 1-die default defense, and have seen this in several un fights I've run in Sorcerer.  Characters dive for cover as their first action of the combat, then roll those dice over into their default defense when shooting from behind that cover.  It maps quite nicely to how I imagine a gun fight playing out (having never been in one myself).  

So... some clever Jackie Chan Style Chain-Fu might boost a default defense- elaborating on the environment or impressing the other players with the novelty of it.  

-B

[sirogit]

The example is incorrect as after his action(Striking the first opponent) He uses full stamina dice for defense.

[Bailywolf]

The example is incorrect as after his action(Striking the first opponent) He uses full stamina dice for defense.

Example?

-B

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Ben, I think I'm still confused about something - you seem to be rolling victories from a successful attack into a one-die defense roll. That's what Sirogit is rightly questioning.

Let's clarify: one-die defenses require not aborting the intended action.

1. During announcement, the player says, "I'm hurling myself into their midst, all fast-like." The GM says, no problem, they're all gonna slice and dice you. No one wants to change anything.

Let's say the player announced the action with verve, maybe making some kind of grimace or something when he said "all fast-like" that floated everyone's boat. The GM gave him a bonus die.

2. Everyone rolls. One or more bad guys roll higher than the player-character, even though he had a bonus die in his roll.

3. The GM points to one of the sets of dice on the table, the one with the highest value - this guy's going! The player says, "I don't care!" and stays with his announced action.

Now this is important: in this circumstance, the single defense die gains no bonuses. I don't care how nifty the announced action is, the niftiness has already been accounted for with that other bonus die.

If the player wants a new bonus die for his one-die roll, the announcement has to include one or more of the three options I described above.

Best,
Ron

whoops - left out a crucial "not" - must edit.

[Ron Edwards]

Clarification: actually, Ben, I suddenly understand your example. The point is that you want the description not to modify the attack at all, but rather to modify the single-die defense in advance, if the player chooses to use it.

The answer to that is No Way Ever. Neither the single-die defense nor the full-on abort-defense roll can be set up in advance in any way like that.

Best,
Ron

[sirogit]

[quote="Bailywolf
Example?

-B[/quote]

The example you provided in the first post, assuming that you meant that the events transpired in one round.

If the clever player already performed his action with that Snake-Crane attack, when he defends later in the same round he wouldn't roll one die for defense, he'd roll his Stamina.

[Ron Edwards]

Sirogit, at first I agreed with you, but now I think you're missing the point.

See my post above - the character has to get through another character's attack on him before he can deliver his own attack. Ben is trying to get the one-die defensive roll a bonus through his initial announced action.

Best,
Ron

[sirogit]

Err, let me see if I can clear this up.

"For example, say a clever player describes his character's action in the combat round thus:

"I'll use Snake and Crane in combination, striking with Crane Bill and confusing my opponent with Crane Through the Rushes"

In resolving the action, he has to eat an attack from a second opponent after striking the first, but narrates, "I recover from Crane Bill, and sway my body with Snake Form technique to make myself more difficult to strike." Could he get a die or two to his single default defense die? Could he roll Victories from his attack action into this defense roll because he described a cool offensive/defensive combo? Or once spent- in this case, on damage- are those dice/victories gone?

Could he use the combat options from Sorcerer & Sword (if they are in play) to boost a default defensive action rather than the main action of a round? As above, but the description is used on a roll of a Martial Artist Background/Cover.

-Ben

So the situation looks like this:

Hero A, Enemy B, and Enemy C are fighting.

Hero A declares an attack against Enemy C. Enemy B and C are going to attack him.

They roll the dice: Hero A is first, then Enemy, then Enemy C.

Hero A attacks Enemy C. Hero A has performed his action.

Enemy B attacks Hero A. Hero A has already performed his action, so he rolls his full Stamina for defense.

---

Is that right?

[Bailywolf]

Ron- yes, that was the clarification I was looking for.

It hasn't come up in my games so far, but just came to me while I was reading the previous thread this was posted to.

No worries then.

You esentially have three defensive options.

Total active defense- describe it as part of the free-clear, and gain a 2 die bouns.  You take no action other than saving your chunk.

Abort to Defense- you abandon your free-clear action- and any descriptive bonuses you may have gained- and roll your full Stamina (or Cover).

Lump it- roll the one die and hope.

Currency can bump the dice you for any of these defensive modes.

But you CAN NOT set up a descriptive bouns for Abort or Lump It in the free-clear stage of the round.

Yes?

-B

[Ron Edwards]

Ah, geez. Ben, please start all over. Sirogit is right about the first enemy.

Make it simpler, please.

1. Hero attacks C, hero is attacked by B and C.

2. The dice order: B, hero, C.

(hell, this would all even be easier with just one opponent, but never mind)

The player does not defend actively against B and preserves his attack on C.

What you want is for the hero's one-die defense against B to be given a bonus due to the player's description of the action back in the intention phase.

Is that right? If so, then Sirogit's (valid) objection can be set aside, because I got rid of the confounding attack. And also, if so, then the answer to your desired bonus die is NO.

Best,
Ron

[Bailywolf]

Err, let me see if I can clear this up.

So the situation looks like this:

Hero A, Enemy B, and Enemy C are fighting.

Hero A declares an attack against Enemy C. Enemy B and C are going to attack him.

They roll the dice: Hero A is first, then Enemy, then Enemy C.

Hero A attacks Enemy C. Hero A has performed his action.

Enemy B attacks Hero A. Hero A has already performed his action, so he rolls his full Stamina for defense.

---

Is that right?

Woops- totally my bad.  I completely missed what you were referencing.

Yes, that is correct.  You only have to abort or lump it against people acting faster than you (obviously).


OK, I'll totally start over.

HERO vs. THUG and HENCHMAN.

1) HERO- "I'll dive in between them, hammering THUG with a piston-like punch, but staying wary of HENCHMAN so he can't cold-clock me."

GROUP- "Great Description!"

GM- "Bonus Die!  THUG and HENCHMAN will try and bash you with their lengths of pipe.  Everyone happy with this?"

HERO- "Yeah- but I wan that bonus die for my defense against HENCHMAN, not my attack on THUG."

2) Rolling & Resolution Order- HENCHMAN, then HERO, then THUG.

3) The System Speaks- HENCHMAN resolves against HERO first, and the payers decides to Lump It...but gets that bonus die for tactics.  Rolls, and HENCH still gets 1 Victory.  Yeowch.  HERO then resolves against THUG, who elects to abandon his own attack and roll his full Stamina to resist.  He wins, so HERO doesn't hurt him.




But Ron, you specify that can't use bonuses from this source to boost an abort or lump defensive action- yes?



If not, then where would such a bonus come from (other than previous set-up rolls or a opponent's penalties)?


-Ben

[Ron Edwards]

Cool. Lotta cross-posting there too, which made things tricky.

Anyway, Ben, here are all the places that the one-die defense can get boosted from.

Situational modifiers, usually noted by the GM at the moment of the player's announcement to go for the one-die defense - in some groups, players might suggest these for the GM's consideration.

Previous set-up rolls (as you mentioned) - these are tricky, because of the "next action" rule - if the character had been carrying bonus dice due to rolled-over victories, he would have had to use them for his attack roll or lose them, as it was his "next action" at the time.

Opponent's penalties (as you mentioned)

Saved victories from a previous roll (as per Sorcerer & Sword)

A gesture or quip right at the moment of announcing the one-die defense

So in your example, the response to the player's request during the announcement phase is "Forget it, homey." But if he does want that bonus, then he has to get a similar reaction when he announces the one-die defense.

Best,
Ron