Between Design and Actual Play?

[Green]

For a good little while now, I've been working on Kathanaksaya, but it seems that after the initial stages of design and revision are over, it seems the only way I am going to get people (even just one group) to talk about and play my game is to badger people into letting me run a game, and I'm not always up to that (either the badgering or running the game).

How do you bridge the gap between design and actual play?  How do you encourage gamers (newbies and veterans alike) to overcome inertia to try something different?  What would it take to make you take time out of your life to not only learn a new system, but do everything you can to make it enjoyable?  Is the secret high production values?  Is it sheer noise?  Is it finding the ever-elusive right players?

Is there a way for the smaller indie games to gain more exposure?  Do you need some sort of community dedicated to playtesting?  I have tried indie-netgaming, but that only led to frustration because there were too many games for the population of consistent gamers.  I was thinking of advertising on RPGnet, but I'm not sure if I want to handle the baggage that comes with it.  So, where does that leave the indie designer who wants people to play his/her games, but doesn't know how to go about doing it?

[Jasper]

I think playtest exchanges can work well: you and some group you play with regularly playtests some other designer's game and he does the same.  It's good because you'd not asking someone to do something for free, so you don't need to do any badgering.  You can also be reasonably assured of some quality feedback since that other designer wants the same for his game and, being a designer, will probably have a good critical eye.  Maybe a dedicated community of designers willing to swap would work...but wait, we've already got Connections here at the Forge!

[JSDiamond]

How do you encourage gamers (newbies and veterans alike) to overcome inertia to try something different?

Dude, that's the holy grail.

Seriously though, getting there partially depends on fun demos and good marketing.  The rest is timing.

1. Fun demos = Run games, get friends to run games (See #2).  

2. Good marketing = This one is more complex.  Prepare fun scenarios to demo.  Produce a good flyer or buy sheet and in it describe your game and highlight the bits that you think are original, or unique, within its genre/setting/system/whatever. On a website: Don't count on everyone reading every word on your site --point out the stuff that makes your game original.  Further, if you can't afford to print a bunch of follow-up supplements right away (like me and probably a lot of other designers) provide free PDFs and other freebies to give players a boost, to get their games headed in different directions.  Care about your game and HELP the people who play it have fun.  

One more thing (IMO) advertising a game in everyone of its follow-up products (paid for or free) is the hallmark of a total wanker.  On the subject of your game's supplements (free or paid for) --make them worthy with info that players can actually use.  Don't let 'free' become a less quality product.  Free doesn't mean that you have to stuff it with artwork and a core rulebook's worth of info.  Just make what it is, a solid good product.                

Post, post, post.  Advertising anywhere online is a subject for debate.  There is good and bad.  But more important is to post regularly on various boards and let people know what's going on with your game.  As a role-player I like that.  To me, that's better than an ad.  When I read something interesting  I visit those sites to see what's going on, because it's a real person posting.  It's more personal.            

3. Timing = This could also be called "luck".  Pay attention to what is saturating the hobby (in ads and online hype) and just as important --what isn't.  Then hit 'em where they 'aint.

That's all I can think of.

[Wilper]

To playtest my own game I went to a con that my local gaming club held and had my game added to the games that were available for play. I was very straight forward and clearly stated in the description that it was testing.  I got so many players that I had to turn some away.

[Green]

It's been a while, but now that I have some time and perspective, I'll respond to some of your suggestions.

First, I had considered running Kathanaksaya at a gaming convention last year, but a hurricane came and pretty much flattened those plans.  This year, I want to try it, but I have no idea exactly what I'm going to do with the game.  I need something I can start and finish in 4 or 5 hours.

Second, regarding JSDiamond's suggestions, I think the crucial ingredient I may be missing is luck.  Then again, perhaps I'm just not persistent enough.  I post something about my changes or the things I'm thinking about changing with Kathanaksaya whenever I come up with them, and nobody responds to them.  Nobody.  At all.  I do not give my own threads a boost because if what I have isn't interesting enough to respond to, I doubt any sort of cajoling or pleading on my part would change that.  Maybe my game's just not interesting.

I did try using my system with a group of friends, but although they are good friends and roleplayers when the mood hits them, it is very difficult to do any sort of focused gaming over a long period of time.  It also doesn't help that it's like pulling teeth to get them to read even a lite version of Kathanaksaya.

I may just have to find other sources.  The exchange idea seemed alright, but I don't know who besides me would be interested in doing something like that.  Connections could work if it got more traffic (compared to say, RPG Theory, Indie Game Design, or the GNS forum).

If you want to find my newest developments in Kathanaksaya, I have a thread here.

[Jasper]

(expecting a split some time soon)

I post something about my changes or the things I'm thinking about changing with Kathanaksaya whenever I come up with them, and nobody responds to them.

Is this at The Forge?  'cause if so, one possibility is that everything you've said seems hunky dory -- in which case people rightly don't post with a "good work."

What might be more critical is whether or not there are people about who have been following your game since its inception.  I personally find that I virtually never get involved in the development of a game here if I haven't "gotten in on the ground floor" by reading the very initial post, and most subsequent posts.  It's just too much work, basically, unless the game really really grabs me, which is rare (not that there haven't been worthy games, but I'm lazy in this regard).  Whether or not I've gotten in on the ground floor is frequently a matter of luck, depending on how busy I was when the first post came out, it's title, etc.  So the moral is...response rates at The Forge may not be indicative of general (potential) interest level.

That said, getting playtesting done can be pretty hard either way, unless you have a willing group of guinea pigs living close by you.  On the other hand, the Indie Net Gaming folks might be willing, or some other online group (perhaps organized by you via RPG.net or another broad-based forum).

[Bill Cook]

. . I have no idea exactly what I'm going to do with the game. I need something I can start and finish in 4 or 5 hours.

Think 15 minutes. Take the Kathanaksaya Challenge: sit down at a table, alone, and demonstrate, to yourself, the most irresistably fun parts.

I did try using my system with a group of friends, but although they are good friends and roleplayers when the mood hits them, it is very difficult to do any sort of focused gaming over a long period of time. It also doesn't help that it's like pulling teeth to get them to read even a lite version of Kathanaksaya.

Wrong pond. Trust that there is a right one.

Also, the fruit's gotta ripen. I've had some success in getting friends to review the manuscript to my game by tying into their interests. I described my game to a friend as he played a video game. After a pause, he said, in a distracted tone, "Sounds cool." Then I asked, "What's that game you're playing about?" And on he went, explaining what was cool about it. Then I said, "Well, that's a perfect example of something you can do with my system." And on I went, explaining how he could recreate those experiences. He bothered me for the next three days until I finally conceeded to run a demo.

Another friend of mine rang my cell today, calling from work, for me to approve him making notes on the copy I gave him. I said, "Sure. It's yours." This guy is an experienced gamer whose opinion I hold in high regard. But four months prior, I couldn't bribe him with beer to have me walk him through the resolution mechanic. Why the change? He just ran one of his best sessions ever last week, and I was hugely supportive of his success. So when he asked me in the driveway, on the way out, "Should we continue with this campaign? What's next do you think?" I replied, "I'd like you to take a look at this."

The exchange idea seemed alright, but I don't know who besides me would be interested in doing something like that.

That would be me. Although, I've already got one in the works. But check back in a month. I'd love for your group to play my game. And for that, I will play the hell out of yours.

* * *

I noticed a huge jump in my drive to promote my game once I got it in a sharp-looking, portable format. I take a copy with me everywhere I go, like some kid with a Christmas present. I ran down to Austin earlier this month to drive my brother-in-law back up to DFW. In the breakfast cafe, before we left, he noticed my center-stapled, cardstock-cover booklet, scanned the title, and after minutes of something like trying to suppress a yawn, he said, "What is that?" So I walked 'em through it.

My video game friend left his copy on the coffee table at his folks place, and he caught his mother finishing a complete read-through at the kitchen table the next day. It's established: people can't read the title of my game without at least wanting to know what the hell it is. Her review: "I didn't understand it, but it was well written."

[Jack Aidley]

The playtest version of Great Ork Gods has had over six hundred downloads, and I've had playtest feedback from around twenty to thirty folks (some of which, admittedly, amount to 'this game rocks') and I know from Googling that there are more people who've played it than have told me about it. I consider this to have been a success.

Beyond the design thread here, and a couple of Actual Play reports I've not done much in the way of promotion for it. The feedback I've got implies to me that there are two 'controlable' factors that have a big influence - having a well-designed scenario so folks can pick up and play and being able to be run as a one-shot (in fact, in my case, being designed to be a one-shot). This allows people to try it out with a minimum of time and commitment both for the GM, and for the players.

I suggest then that you invest a good chunk of time in designing a good inductory scenario designed to last a single session and bundle it with your playtest version.

[Green]

I suggest then that you invest a good chunk of time in designing a good inductory scenario designed to last a single session and bundle it with your playtest version.

This is something I thought about but never actually sat down and did, something I intend to change in the near future.  I'll probably create two or three scenarios just to make sure that there's something for a large pool of people.

Thanks for the suggestion.