[Bones] Publishing feedback

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

This is an example of the kind of feedback I tend to give people when they send me a pre-print mockup of their game, for any comments before they go to print or finalizing their PDF. Although Bones is currently available in print, I think it's still in this stage, and since it's printed through using Lulu.com, changes are easy as pie.

I'm posting it here, publicly, for two reasons. (1) The author recently had a rough time as evidenced by A bad review, and I thought I'd promote it a little; and (2) the game's very existence raises a bunch of important questions for any independent publisher.

Question: hey, author of Bones, are you Andy or Vincent? "andy" is your username at the Forge; the author of the game is Vincent K. Raven. Urh? Help me out, huh?

Basics: I really like the game, based on reading, and can't wait to try it out. Count me among the folks who have always wanted to stick little stickers on dice with icons, and also, as someone who has always thought a handful of specialized dice is the perfect character sheet.

SYSTEM
These are some questions which I hope reveal some places where the text needs a little shoring up.

1. Universal successes count when rolling restricted-skill tasks, right?

2. What's this stuff about declaring one's roll? See the rules about attacking from a prone position, which seems to be referencing a concept I'm not seeing elsewhere (might've just missed it).

3. The example of theme/restriction of magic is really bogus, man. Theme= "fire", but restriction is "limited to fire?" Nope. Bzzzzzzz. Themes and restrictions need to be functionally independent or the whole concept is shafted.

4. Let me see if I understand strategizing the icons on one's dice: obviously only one icon appears per rolled die, so it's better to have mental skills on dice which feature "physical success" and vice versa.

CONTENT
I really like all the Bob and Goblin examples

The opening adventure: eww! But perhaps enjoyable in its foulness. I can tell you this, though - it seems optimized for kicking male, cloistered, power-tripping gamers in the kneecaps, and as such, might not represent the potential of the game to a wider group. I recommend including another adventure of about the same scope and page count, placing it before the "Pee/cannibalism/rape" one. If it shares the current one's offbeat quality, then you'll be in good shape.

LITTLE STUFF
I suggest sending a copy to Jeff Siadek, the author of Throwing Stones and a really nice guy who's currently publishing a game called Battlestations. I met him at GenCon and I think he'd be tickled to see how he wasn't just a voice in the wilderness. You might also acknowledge Throwing Stones, Black Fire, Sigil, and Dragon Dice in the game text, not necessarily as influences, but as game designs using image-dice which preceded yours.

FORMAT
I bought the print copy, which features a 3peat on the hot-chick + severed head image: cover, inside cover page, and contents page. That's a little much, even for a neat illo like that one.

The overall text layout is perfect old school game-book, but unfortunately, it's terrible for learning purposes. We can talk more about that later, as it's starting to be an issue I'm considering very carefully. For now, I suggest thinking "one page, one idea," and not fearing white space when the idea is done.

PUBLISHING
I'm not sure RPGnow is the best site for this game, or really, as a launching site for anyone's first product. I'd be interested to know what people think of that idea. Overall, I do not think the site is optimized to serve the publisher.

Now that Lulu.com is justly getting a lot of attention from folks at the Forge, I urge that folks not be so quick to head for print. It's hard not to do! People rushed into print for no reason back when it cost $6000 just to enter the arena, so I don't expect much positive response now that it's practically free in comparison. Still, I stick by my age-old advice: PDF or other electronic form first, then print later as an option, not the default.

Best,
Ron

[andy]

First, thanks Ron for taking the time and making the effort to take a look at BONES.

I am Andy-- Vincent is my pen name.

Your comments are right on the money--

1. Universal successes count towards all skills, including restricted skills.

2. Declaring dice means allocating successes to offense and defense. This should have been made mush clearer.

3. The magic system needs more work. I scrapped my original two systems, but was only 75% satisfied with the third. I like the idea of free form magic and randon magic (it takes the science out of fantasy magic), but I need to better define my parameters.

4. As for dice strategy, the placement of the icons is dependant on whether you want to be a generalist or specialist. Generalists should spread icons as you suggest, specialists tend to pile them up.

Other stuff

I like Bob too--he appears in every game that I've written (most of which never make it past my game group.)

Cheeseburger is a macabre adventure by design, but I do see the wisdom of including a more conventional adventure as well--perhaps a lead-in.

I will add all to the acknowledgements--do you have an email for Jeff?

I wish that I had more budget for more Navaro art-- Andrew's stuff is great and he's a joy to work with. If I can squeeze a few more sales, I'll commission another piece or two to beef it up and avoid the three-peat (although I do love his cover).


I struggled with the learning issue (and apparently lost). I am spoiled in that my players are a bunch of 35-40 year old long-time gamers, which means that our learning curve is slight.

Finally, LuLu has been good to work with. Although the PDF printed well, there's something about that perfect bound copy....

Thanks again for your critique and time.

Andy

[Paul Czege]

Hi Andy,

I will add all to the acknowledgements--do you have an email for Jeff?

Contact info here: http://www.battlestations.info/contact.html

Paul

[GregS]

...Before the"Pee/cannibalism/rape" one.

Okay, first off-- Hehehehehe.  That statement made me laugh out loud.

Secondly, I, too, have struggled with this concept.  My game Valherjar is prone to particularly harsh imagery and I had to re-write my opening short story 6 times before I found something that I thought both portrayed the game and still made it accessible to more than just...well...people like me.

The decision I came to was to take some of the harsher stories and add them as free downloads from my website...though I'm not going to do it until I have a real cross section ready to go up so there's "something for everyone".


Also, and a bit of a tangent, why do you feel RPGNow is a bad place to start for a newbie, Ron?  Or, if there's a thread somewhere else that explains it, give me the heads up.

[Keith Senkowski]

Hey Ron,

With what it costs to make a book via POD through Lulu why do you suggest not going that route with a new game?  I mean, there is no minimum order requirement outside of the proof copy you have to order.  Why would you do PDF over that?

Now that Lulu.com is justly getting a lot of attention from folks at the Forge, I urge that folks not be so quick to head for print. It's hard not to do! People rushed into print for no reason back when it cost $6000 just to enter the arena, so I don't expect much positive response now that it's practically free in comparison. Still, I stick by my age-old advice: PDF or other electronic form first, then print later as an option, not the default.

Keith

[jdagna]

Hey Ron,

With what it costs to make a book via POD through Lulu why do you suggest not going that route with a new game?  I mean, there is no minimum order requirement outside of the proof copy you have to order.  Why would you do PDF over that?

Now that Lulu.com is justly getting a lot of attention from folks at the Forge, I urge that folks not be so quick to head for print. It's hard not to do! People rushed into print for no reason back when it cost $6000 just to enter the arena, so I don't expect much positive response now that it's practically free in comparison. Still, I stick by my age-old advice: PDF or other electronic form first, then print later as an option, not the default.

Keith

I'll volunteer a response based on what I think, which may or may not be what Ron was thinking.

Here's the thing: Let's take two people who each rush out to buy your game the instant it's available.  Guy A buys the PDF for $5, while Guy B buys the printed copy from Lulu.com for about $15 total.  Now, a month later you realize that there are some clarification and corrections that need to be made, perhaps based on feedback from these guys.  Now, you put out the new version, and what happens now?

In most cases, you wind up offering Guy A a free replacement PDF with the changes, but there's no way you can swallow the printing costs to update Guy B's copy, right?  So the best Guy B can get is a PDF of the new version, which he could have bought in the first place and saved $10.  If he wants the printed copy, he's got to go buy another $15 book (which would put his total investment at $30 instead of $5).

In other words, when you rush to offer a book by print, you're shafting the higher-paying customers.  There's also the possibility that you wind up with outdated copies sitting in your inventory (depending on whether you ordered some or not).  Either way, the whole problem could have been avoided by waiting for a while before offering anything for print at all.

A lot of people fall back on the defense that Guy B didn't have to buy the print copy, but that strikes me as being on par with McDonald's serving poisoned hamburgers and insisting that you didn't have to buy them.  RPGs tend to evolve over time as things get fixed and added, but you still have an obligation to customers to provide high-quality finished products.  Or, phrased another way, Guy B really has a right to expect a high-quality finished product (unless, perhaps you put warning signs up all over the place that the game may not be finished and that you recommend buying the PDF... but if that's the case, why not offer just the PDF?).

[madelf]

I think you've got a good point there, Justin.

POD is a wonderful thing, but selling hardcopies is a step that shouldn't be taken until you're certain the game is done. Circulating a PDF first to get feedback would be a good way to make sure you're as done as you think you are.

[Keith Senkowski]

Hey,

I think you've got a good point there, Justin.

POD is a wonderful thing, but selling hardcopies is a step that shouldn't be taken until you're certain the game is done. Circulating a PDF first to get feedback would be a good way to make sure you're as done as you think you are.

Okay I get the pooint you and Justin are making, but I was assuming that the product was already done.  Publishing a hardcopy of a playtest seems a little silly to me.  However you could do something like what Ralph did with Robots and Rapiers.  He printed up and sold fully playable, but unfinished copies of the game, but with a coupon for a discount on the final book, which if I remember correctly covers the cost of the pre-final copy.

Keith

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

PDF first, is my advice. It's not supposed to be Untrammeled Wisdom, but it is hard-won experience. If Andy's review thread is any indication, he received a swift steel-toed kick straight into the nuts from that fellow. I'm suggesting solutions which do not

Do I always do this? With core games, yeah. With supplements for Sorcerer, not any more - the game is now solidly established both on-line and through the game stores (far more than I ever anticipated, for the latter). But you can bet even as Trollbabe follows Elfs into print, more core games from me will debut as PDf products.

There is just too much to learn from this stage to pass it over. And Calvin, I stand solidly with you in my regard for the POD technology and new business opportunities. I think they're great.

... my only point is to recognize the tremendous advantage of beginning with PDF before moving into print of any kind.

Best,
Ron

[madelf]

Okay I get the pooint you and Justin are making, but I was assuming that the product was already done.  Publishing a hardcopy of a playtest seems a little silly to me.  However you could do something like what Ralph did with Robots and Rapiers.  He printed up and sold fully playable, but unfinished copies of the game, but with a coupon for a discount on the final book, which if I remember correctly covers the cost of the pre-final copy.

Keith

Strangely enough, I'm actually considering publishing a print playtest as the game gets a little further along, I'm just not going to sell it to the public. I just think a hard copy would be a nice thing to hand out to some of the people I plan to recruit for playtesting.

Selling a print copy of the pre-flight game with a coupon is an interesting idea, and one I certainly hadn't thought of. It neatly solves the problem of people having to pay full price again for the final game. But selling something you know is unfinished, then charging more for the final version... I don't know. It still sounds like selling a playtest version to me. And I'm honestly not sure exactly how I feel about that. Something to think on I guess.

I think I still prefer Ron's method. A PDF can be updated and sent off to the people who purchased it as often as you need to, no additional charge, no wasted obsolete books sitting around. At the point it's as done as it can get, and you're ready to sell print versions... you're really selling a separate product then, not just a revision.

I'm sure there's any number of other methods that would get the job done though.

[jerry]

In most cases, you wind up offering Guy A a free replacement PDF with the changes, but there's no way you can swallow the printing costs to update Guy B's copy, right?  So the best Guy B can get is a PDF of the new version, which he could have bought in the first place and saved $10.  If he wants the printed copy, he's got to go buy another $15 book (which would put his total investment at $30 instead of $5).

Well, remember that there's a very good chance that Guy A *also* has a printed copy that they went to the trouble of printing out; and now they have to do it again.

What you should (imo) do for *both* Guy A and Guy B is provide a succinct, printable, list of the changes, on your blog/website/bathroom stall. This helps not only Guy A and Guy B but also their players, and provides a record of the progress of your game.

And, of course, wherever you mention the print version, be clear what your print schedule is compared to your web schedule. Those rules changes that you made in response to someone's comments should not go directly to print immediately anyway. They should go up on the "beta-test version", which will probably be a PDF or HTML version. If you don't release a beta-test version, then neither Guy A nor Guy B will hear about it until you've committed the changes, which should take time.

Your print version should be more stable than your beta-test version. (Unless you're offering a clearly-marked beta-test print version for people without easy access to printers but prefer print versions.)

It may well be that Guy B bought the print version solely because they prefer a print version and they don't have access to a good printer without paying about as much as your print version anyway. After all, if it is easier and cheaper to print a single copy of the PDF than to buy a printed version, you aren't going to be selling many print versions barring other benefits to the printed version that Guy A isn't getting.

If what you're thinking is that some people might be buying the print version because, being more expensive they think you get more money out of it and they want to support you, well, you just need to be clear about whether that is or (more likely) isn't true.

Jerry

[andy]

I think that this thread has been extremely informative, but with respect to the PDF vs POD debate, there is one thing that I wanted to make clear--

BONES is a finished product, not a work in progress.

While there are some things that I might have done differently (higher res graphics, more Navaro art, etc.), the only part of BONES that I am not happy with is its magic system, and my unhappiness stems not from BONES, but from the difficulties inherent in creating a magic system in any fantasy RPG-- keeping a system that creates wonder without making non-spellcasters second class citizens. So far, in play, the BONES system accomplishes this goal, but I ackowledge that it could be better defined. I am working on a supplement that will include my two alternate magic systems and (shudder) be d20 compatable. We'll see how that sells.

For anyone interested, the infamous first BONES adventure, Cheeseburger in Paradise, is available as a free download from either RPGNow or at www.lulu.com/BONES .

Thank you all for your wisdom and support. Although sometimes fractious, we generally do stick together.

Finally, INDIE DOES NOT EQUAL FREE. While I have no objection to giving away product (I've built my own collection of free RPGS), we must never feel guilty about not giving away the products of our labor and our minds. We don't have to justify charging for our products.

Take care.

Andy

[madelf]

BONES is a finished product, not a work in progress.

Okay. Understood.

But think of the advice in this light...

You've acknowledged that there are some elememts that could possibly be improved, some things worded better, you're not entirely happy with the magic system, etc.  Mostly minor things perhaps, but would the game not benefit from addressing them?

The advantage of using PDF first is that it gives you a test run, where you can iron out all those wrinkles you may not even have realized were there, and thus have a better and more finished product when going to print.

Of course, since you're using lulu.com... that's a slightly less critical thing as you can change still change it if you chose to  (and perhaps post a free errata for those who have the old version).