Underworld: Werewolves vs. Vampires

[Judd]

I just played in a brilliant game by my buddy, Robert and the premise was that the trailer for Underworld was cool but the movie sucked, let's play it right.  

Got me thinking about how to do so with Sorcerer.

Some thoughts towards a one-sheet.

Humanity is Empathy (this should be the firmest part but it feels weak and lame to me.  Yuck.)

Demons are curses, usually parasites I'd think, that make humans monstrous.

Sorcerers are cursed and monstrous humans.

Humanity 0 means that the player plays through their tragic ending that is written at the same time as their Kicker.

This Humanity 0 is a kind of anti-Kicker.  It is not how to begin the game in the player's mind but the way to begin the ending.

Stamina Descriptors

Trenchcoat Bad-ass: You are a two-katana whirlwind of doom.

Feral: You are a beast.

Mummified:  You are a walking, shriveled corpse.


Will

Angst-Filled: Your mind quails at the pain and horror all around you.

Ancient Power: Your mind has seen centuries and come out stronger for it.

Defiant Rebel: Your mind goes against the status quo and is thus supple and cunning.


Lore Descriptors

Past Lives: You rely on your memories of past lives to wield your curses.

Black Magic Magus: Your curses are forged in brimstone and clothed in black velvet.

Shamanic: Managing curses is what you do for your community, handed down to you by your master.

Might use the Pacting and Immanents rules from Sorcerer and Sword for viciously powrful infernal powers.

If I were to run it using the Underworld model, I might have a kind of alternate Cover, along with the usual Covers (Death Dealer, Werewolf Alpha, etc.) that would be more aligned with Romeo and Juliet.  These R&J covers would be Romeo, Juliet, The Nurse, Tybalt, Mercutio, The Prince and the Priest and the player would get extra dice based on how they reinvented that role or played into it in some interesting way.

[erithromycin]

Humanity could be argued to be the measure of your ability to treat members of the Lupines or Suckers as people.

Also, secondary covers? Surely Destiny from S&Sword?

I like the notion of doom being connected to Humanity 0, but why not go the whole hog and conflate man and antiman at Humanity 0 and make them Immanents?

[Ron Edwards]

Hey Judd,

Don't forget to check out Jake is gearing up for Sorcerer, which as far as I can tell is pretty much the same idea. I thought he'd posted about the game later in Actual Play, but as it turns out, I think I got all the feedback from in-person dialogue instead.

One cool rules-interpretation we hit upon for basic shape-changing, just before he ran the series of sessions, was to use the "goal/Price" rules from Sorcerer & Sword. The idea is that one doesn't shape-shift without a goal anyway, so one gets all the bonuses and accepts the aggravated Price value - the actual physical shifting is just Color. Apparently it worked very well during play.

Best,
Ron

[Scripty]

Hi Paka:
I had brainstormed on this for a long, long time but then eventually set it aside because I had/have absolutely no chance of getting to playtest it at this time and (b) Nathan/Paganini had a really great thing going with his Vampire-inspired take on Trollbabe.

However, a limitation of using TB, IMO, (and something else I couldn't quite wrap my head around) was how to model two essentially different types of Trollbabes (Vampires/Werewolves) and get them right. I settled on being able, eventually, to ditch werewolves (or else model them as some form of demon) with Vamps in the middle of a Demons vs. Mortals world. (Werewolves, of course, would fall on the demon end of the spectrum). It wasn't perfect, but it was a start...


Now, back to topic...

Some of my brainstorms on this type of setting in Sorcerer involved exactly what the demons were, why they would want to "inhabit" people, and (or course) the humanity thing...

Here's what I came up with. Make use of it as you see fit.

In my take on UW/Sorcerer, demons were denizens of the pit (aka Hell). Those came in two shades: corrupt angels thrown down from Heaven and creatures that were already there before the angels arrived. The whole setting revolved around the instance of a gate opening between Hell and Earth, allowing some (but not all) of these creatures through.

On the material plane, these hellspawn were actually quite powerless. They can "tempt" mortals, even trick them up to a point, but can't physically affect anything... For that, they need a body....

Hell's Angels (pardon the pun) who inhabit the body of a mortal become vampires. They need the blood of humans to keep themselves alive. The process of becoming taken over by one of these parasite demons requires that the human be near death. This process can be undertaken willingly or accidentally as in the ritualist who bleeds himself to near death and then accepts the spirit into himself or the car accident victim who is faced with the choice of dying or living and then accepts the spirit into her in order to continue her existence.

In either case, a question/temptation is posed by the evil spirit and a proposition is accepted by the human.

That's where things get interesting for the vampires.

First, they need to feed. On human blood taken from human flesh. No rats. No pig's blood. No pouches of refrigerated blood from hospitals. Vampire characters must somehow feed and eat or else their parasite will, as will they in this state of bizarre unlife.

Second, *most* (but certainly not all) of these rebellious angels from the Pit want to establish their dominion first over their human host (by driving them to 0 Humanity) and then re-establish their "angelic" order on the mortal plane in order to bring the "war in heaven" to Earth. Like I said, there are those who oppose even this, but they would, likely, be hunted by their own kind as traitors.

Hence, we have the social structure of something like the Camarilla and it's raison d'etre.

Now, the Werewolves...

Remember I talked about the creatures in the Pit that lived there before the Angels dropped in? Well, that's what Werewolves turn out to be. Vicious spirits with psuedo-animal appearances. They are brought into the bodies of their hosts in much the same way as vampires, although, IIRC, werewolves were a kind of dormant possessors and not parasites. Their need was always some form of violent destruction. Their desire varied but I felt it should probably be something at least marginally animalistic (like Sex or Domination of Others, etc.).

For where the "war" between werewolves and vamps comes in, we have to reach all the way back into the "bowels" of Hell...

When the naughty Angels were dropped off into the pits of eternal hellfire, they ran across these crude, malevolent beings. So they, of course, enslaved them. Now that they're on Earth, they want to do it again. So, for Werewolves, the choice is to serve or die.

In my setting, Werewolves were not an organized group, although they could conceivably have some sort of structure to their society akin to the Vampires and also be attempting to establish their own "order" on Earth.

One of the hang-ups I had was with dealing with the Werewolf's transformation in the Sorcerer rules, using the "Goal/Price" thing that Ron mentions sounds like a plausible solution for that.

Added on to all this, though, I also had Angels, Half-Breeds (ala Sorcerer & Sword), Immanent Demons, etc. I think, in the end, it qualified more as a modern-gothic Sword & Sorcery setting. There was also the question of Lucifer, who had settled in to his role in Hell (or perhaps colluded with the One On High), and was acting to stop the "vampires" through his agents (read: Immanent Demons) on the material plane. But at some point it all started to get to be only "possible" directions for play to take as opposed to workable backstory...

Humanity in this setting was defined on two axes...

1) Empathy for Humans: Acting for the benefit of mortals despite one's own self-interest. Losing Humanity on this axis would then be something like feeding on a healthy human or ripping a school bus full of kids to shreds. Gaining Humanity might be something like putting one's life on the line to save an orphanage from a rampaging werewolf or letting the 5-year-old human slated as a potential vessel for the Master's return go free.

2) Knowing one's place on the social ladder and acting accordingly: So serving one's betters. Being a good worker. Losing Humanity would be ignoring a direct order from a Vampire Lord or getting thrown out of your Church for a violent outburst during Mass. Gaining Humanity might be extraordinary service to your Vampire "elders" or
getting away from your family just in time to avoid your bloodlust.

So, one axis is acting for the benefit of Humanity, of mortals, and the other is acting for the benefit of one's Social Network (rather that be work, family or a vampire tradition). As per Sorcerer's Soul, there are all kinds of combinations that may find dual humanity gain, humanity loss/gain, etc.


That's how I was planning on going about it. Like I said, lack of a group kind of hamstringed me. You're more than welcome to take this and run with it. If you want more, just PM me or something. I'd be happy to email you what notes I have...

Scott

[Sydney Freedberg]

In my take on UW/Sorcerer, demons were denizens of the pit (aka Hell). Those came in two shades: corrupt angels thrown down from Heaven and creatures that were already there before the angels arrived.

Or you could take a more traditional distinction between prideful, aristocratic Fallen Angels (which become vampires, in your take) and animalistic, savage pagan spirits/dark faeries (which become werewolves).

That said, I'm wary of the "Apocalyptic Temptation" in science fiction and fantasy, which bringing in The Devil Himself (or The Mysterious Alien Progenitors) tends to do. It's a nice thing to have room to escalate to, if players want it, but often it's just too overwhelmingly huge and distant for the players to engage with emotionally, and you'd be better off sticking at a more manageable scale.

And I speak from the personal experience of running a homebrew Vampire Lords in Space sf/horror game in which players generally cared less about my elaborate, slowly revealed backstory (fallen elder civilizations, a Big Demon coming to eat all reality, the accidental creation of the universe and the potential to create new ones in your own image) than about their own plans to muck about with rival lineages and local trade guilds.

[DannyK]

If I were to run it using the Underworld model, I might have a kind of alternate Cover, along with the usual Covers (Death Dealer, Werewolf Alpha, etc.) that would be more aligned with Romeo and Juliet.  These R&J covers would be Romeo, Juliet, The Nurse, Tybalt, Mercutio, The Prince and the Priest and the player would get extra dice based on how they reinvented that role or played into it in some interesting way.

I have nothing to add to the nifty Underworld-meets-Sorcerer idea, but I wanted to highlight this idea as very cool.  I've seen something a bit similar in Amber games, where the characters sort of settled into roles as alternate-Julian, alternate-Corwin and so on.  It can be very interesting, as long as it's not too confining.

[Judd]

Scott,

I am intrigued by your Humanity axis and will certainly include the familial obligation as part of the definition.  That makes just SO much sense.  Thanks.

I am not sure I want my vampire and werewolf myth to be that detailed but would rather build it off of my players' ideas on what their monsters and their societies are to be.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Judd]

Don't forget to check out Jake is gearing up for Sorcerer, which as far as I can tell is pretty much the same idea. I thought he'd posted about the game later in Actual Play, but as it turns out, I think I got all the feedback from in-person dialogue instead.

Nice thread, Ron.  I read it back in the day but it fell out of my brain.  Thanks for the reminder.

[Scripty]

Or you could take a more traditional distinction between prideful, aristocratic Fallen Angels (which become vampires, in your take) and animalistic, savage pagan spirits/dark faeries (which become werewolves).

That said, I'm wary of the "Apocalyptic Temptation" in science fiction and fantasy, which bringing in The Devil Himself (or The Mysterious Alien Progenitors) tends to do. It's a nice thing to have room to escalate to, if players want it, but often it's just too overwhelmingly huge and distant for the players to engage with emotionally, and you'd be better off sticking at a more manageable scale.

Good idea on the Fallen Angels vs. Savage Pagan Spirits. I avoided the "Apocalyptic Temptation" as you call it by hard-wiring in a subtle, yet powerful, disincentive in the vampiric social structure. Sure, vampires are *supposed* to bring their elders/masters/leaders to Earth for a big War in Heaven redux.

But only the really fanatical or really dumb ones would want to.

Think about it. You're a big daddy vampire. You have minions. People call you "Master". When this ritual goes through, you're no longer a big daddy vampire. You are a minion to the big daddy vampire that you just Immanentized. While you're incarnate on Earth and your Elder is in Hell (or in-between), you have all the power, autonomy and authority a happy leech could want. As soon as Mr. Elder shows up, that authority is gone. You're a henchman.

In this manner, I sought to keep the dynamic of Humanity loss running on both ends of the spectrum (Vamp and Human; still brainstorming on an inverse Humanity scale after the Vamp "takes over" its human host) as well as have a darn good reason why the "Apocalypse" isn't happening and isn't likely to happen anytime soon (as opposed to White Wolf just putting it off until they really needed to sell more books).

That said, if you're interested in my notes, I'd be happy to share. Making Werewolves some kind of Pagan spirit would definitely make a more traditional White Wolf "Vamp vs. WWolves" lineup, but I'd have to figure out (just for my sanity) some kind of relationship between them and the nasty little pagan spirits I already had lined up (who were filling the resident "we're not going to take this lying down" wicked faerie role). Maybe the faeries (in traditional spooky folklore, not Tinkerbell fashion) "conjured" the Werewolf spirits to exterminate the Vamps? I could have a go at that....

Of course, if the occasion to ever run this arose, most all of this "backstory" would be shuffled into the backseat of my brain and would likely be amended/altered/irreversibly modified as suited what the players wanted to do. Sure, I come to the table with this idea that vamps are the spirits of Angels yadda, yadda. But if a player offered that the vamps were alien intelligences trying to take over the Earth and the group seemed to gel with that, I'd probably chuck what I had for what the group wanted to run. Hence, I hear your idea here and say pretty much what I'd say at the table: "Sounds good to me. Let's play..."

I'm weird like that, though.

Scott

[Judd]

So, one axis is acting for the benefit of Humanity, of mortals, and the other is acting for the benefit of one's Social Network (rather that be work, family or a vampire tradition). As per Sorcerer's Soul, there are all kinds of combinations that may find dual humanity gain, humanity loss/gain, etc.

Thanks, I really dig this and the more I read this plural definition the more I like it.

[Judd]

So, one axis is acting for the benefit of Humanity, of mortals, and the other is acting for the benefit of one's Social Network (rather that be work, family or a vampire tradition). As per Sorcerer's Soul, there are all kinds of combinations that may find dual humanity gain, humanity loss/gain, etc.

Thanks, I really dig this and the more I read this plural definition the more I like it.

Axis 1: Empathy for Others' Suffering

Humanity Gain

Having mercy on those weaker than you.

Treating another's pain as your own.

Humanity Loss

Coldly killing a stranger.

Killing without passion, for no reason other than your own gain.

Axis 2: Social Mores

Humanity Gain

Going along with your folk's beliefs even when it causes you pain and discomfort.

Obeying the orders of your elders even when it isn't what you want to do.

Humanity Loss

Going against the laws of your people when it could get you exiled or killed.

Going against the direct order of an elder.

[Scripty]

Thanks, I really dig this and the more I read this plural definition the more I like it.

You're welcome. I'm happy to have helped. I look forward to reading more about this in "Actual Play".

Scott

[Judd]

You're welcome. I'm happy to have helped. I look forward to reading more about this in "Actual Play".

Scott

This game will have to get in a long line but it'd be cool to see it happen.

If it does happen, you'll see it in Actual Play.