The Sorcerer's Pool

[Manu]

Hey all,

Here are my first thoughts on combining Sorcerer and the Pool to get the ultimate in Narrativist design. My premise is to take Sorc as a base and apply to it the Pool mechanics, or techniques. Of course all of this is all about mechanics, and nothing yet reflects any premise or setting. This post focuses on the mechanics and resolution of Monologues. First, Victory. The easy way would be to say that every victory triggers a MoV. Another option is to allow MoVs only for total victories - a bit drastic maybe. Then, why not trigger a MoV whenever all the dice rolled by the player are above/under a certain threshold? for example, if all the dice are under the score used, then MoV. This allows monologues when one has "extra-ordinary" scores. Or again, Mov if all the dice come under the number of dice thrown by the opposition: this leads to monologues whenever there's a major obstacle.

An intriguing option is to set a threshold as above, but modify the MoV based on the score used as a threshold. For instance, if Humanity is used as a threshold to trigger a MoV in a (for instance) Cover roll, the resulting monologue must address the issue of Humanity, or trigger itself a Humanity check, or a reassessment of the character's behavior. Stamina Threshold: the victory must involve a physical element. You get my drift. (sounds a bit like World, Flesh and the Devil, no?)

Monologues of Defeat, now that's trickier. Whenever you fail? When the opposition scores a total victory? When all your dice are under your score? Once again, many options.

So, what do you think?

Manu

[J B Bell]

I don't know the Pool that well, but from what I've garnered from reading on here . . .

I dislike the idea of an extra "target number" for the dice in Sorcerer.  This adds another calculation and makes probability even trickier to understand.

Instead, what about borrowing "critical juncture" from Scattershot [edit: I meant Forgotten Fist], and having part of the social contract be how many Victories are necessary to trigger an MoV?  This allows one to set the drama level nicely, without introducing another dimension to the dice.

--TQuid

[Ron Edwards]

Hey there,

Or we could simply use Total Victory and Total Defeat as venues for Monologue of Victory and Monologue of Defeat.

I often use these methods informally during Sorcerer play anyway, even without Total results. If you have Demon Cops, you'll recognize it in my statement, "You are the animator," as told to a player.

Best,
Ron

[Manu]

OK, so next question, since Monologues seem so easy to integrate (though I still think they should be more tied to the player's involvment in the story, not to just a lucky roll):

How to reconcile Cover (mainly, but also Will, Lore,...) with the Motifs and Romance (I'm using TQB since it is a kind of "applied" Pool) ? they are not exactly identical, as Motifs include what I call narrative vectors into the story , as well as the characteristics associated with defining factors of a character. Maybe just use James' advice that because something isn't a Motif doesn't mean it isn't known by the character; hence we'd have Cover (for instance) for most rolls, and a Motif bonus die from time to time for certain actions. Vectors work as usual, allowing players to take part in the narrative.

But for those player-triggered rolls, what do we roll? This is a purely metagame matter, thus the Sorc system doesn't address it directly; it's hard to set any "difficulty" for this roll...

I'm too tired to think straight today, so I apologize it this seems hazy or vague.

Manu

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Manu,

It seems to me that the score descriptions, including Cover, are all motifs already, and they all represent a wide range of application across many physical, social, and other endeavors (much like an Animal motif in TQB).

As for players calling for rolls instead of the GM, I suggest that this opprtunity also exists with the game as written. Rolls in Sorcerer are used in instances of conflict, in the technical and literary sense. If I'm not mistaken, nothing in the rules states who deems when a conflict is "now happening" and therefore rolls are required. Seems to me that a player can do this just as well as a GM.

I'm not trying to shut you down, by the way. All of these are good questions and make a lot of sense. Furthermore, if a modified version of the system as written seems reasonable to you, then I think it will be fun to work on and to play. All of the above only represents how I would address the questions you raise.

Best,
Ron

[Manu]

It seems to me that the score descriptions, including Cover, are all motifs already, and they all represent a wide range of application across many physical, social, and other endeavors (much like an Animal motif in TQB).

Mm, are you suggesting that the descriptors are Motifs themselves? and they should be included in the Romance? or backwards, the scores, or only their decriptors, should be inferred from the Romance? Makes a lot of sense to me. I had it backwards, as always :)

If I'm not mistaken, nothing in the rules states who deems when a conflict is "now happening" and therefore rolls are required. Seems to me that a player can do this just as well as a GM.

Sure, but how do we deal with players wanting to "roll" because a Motif of theirs just appeared, or who want to state a narrative direction, as in the example in the Pool's text? I'm interested in the metagame framework for that, as well as a possible mechanic for this kind of roll.

All of the above only represents how I would address the questions you raise

And that's exactly why I'm posting this - to have your vision as an experienced GM, as the Sorcerer father, and as the GNS guru ;-)

Thank you !
Manu

[James V. West]

Indeed, Sorcerer's descriptors would translate quite well as Motifs/Traits.  

Hard to comment on this one. I haven't yet played Sorcerer, but I've read it and its awesome as all hell. I have a hard time seeing any reason to use alternate rules.

But I understand youre point here is experimentation, and I applaud that. Sounds like you're on the right track so far.

[Manu]

Hey all,

Right from my feverish brain, the latest in Sorcerer mutations !!

I was thinking of sub dividing Cover (mainly) into various branches that would reflect the setting and themes; so there 'd be a physical action category, a mental/knowledge one, and some categories would be heavily slanted towards the campaign at hand: Fading Suns might have Alien or Religion, and my upcoming Sorcery! conversion would have Travel to cover all survival/wilderness skills; Categories would be highly mutable and could be added or discarded as the campaign evolves: a Society category would kick in when the campaign starts focusing on city plots and social maneuvering.

Further more, those categories would now be divided in three areas to better reflect the reality at work behind the numbers:

-Qualities: the nature and nurture part of the skill(s)/attribute/ability.
-Equipment: diversity and quality of items (weapons for Physical, money or cool clothes for Society, books for Knowledge...)
-Troupe: Companions, patrons,  allies and contacts.

Most of it is heavily influenced by a french RPG but by the time I'm thru with it, it'll be MINE !! mwuah ah ah ah !! and anyway it's for personal use.

The system would be to use Karma for overall scene resolution, but then players could gamble and/or use Sorc mechanics for individual actions within the scene, or to make sure they get some essential thing done even if the scene is a failure - this would be Fortune/Drama. This would allow one, some, or all sub actions within the scene to be succesfull, thus altering the Karma decision if the players are determined/stubborn enough. On top of that, the resolution of a whole scenario/story would be Drama only (this is real Narrativist).

Now, I'm working on how to choose/combine the Sorc and Pool mechanics - I like the gambling, and I'd like to integrate that into Sorc; It'd fit well with the concept of "securing" actions from a scene (this is similar from Quick-takes in Story Bones) but I already have one degree of "nesting" (scene/sub actions) so I'm not sure I'd like to introduce another step. I need some more time to think this through.

Comments? helpful hints? wise suggestions?

Manu