A game whose name you thought you'd probably never see here

[Black Iris Dancer]

This is vaguely related to some thoughts I had over http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=13818">here about the whole G/N/S triumvirate. You may or may not want to read that first. It is long and rambling, but then again, so is this.

In that post, I mention that all these strange thoughts quickly associated themselves with a project I'm currently working on. This project began as a set of tweaks to an existing game. Internal dialogue snippet: “Well, I rather like the core idea, but the system's kindof broken, so maybe we can do a bit of a change here. Oh, and while we're at it, let's shift this over to this. And I like this concept, but it'a a bit too restricted in this way, so let's generalize it a bit and… this is going to quickly be absolutely nothing like what I started out with, is it?” At which point, a couple of friends and I basically threw out everything save for the name, tied it to the newest version of its core system, and started to do stuff.

The game was Changeling: the Dreaming. Yeah. It's undergone some… changes.

The most interesting of these, specifically in regards to RPG theory, stems from a distillation of the notion of what, exactly, these fae things are. Fae are dreams. They're legends, recurring mythic characters and motifs—characters, basically. There's a certain amount of meta-ness (for lack of a better term) in this concept already. Heck, the original Changeling system recognized this, even played into it, if only a little: Prop and Actor and Scene were things that were actually relevant mechanics in doing fae magic.

(I should, at this juncture, note that I haven't read the Exalted Fair Folk book, although I've gathered from reading these forums that Rebecca Borgstrom, et al, came to some similar conclusions regarding the nature of the fae. This does not bother me. It mostly makes me want the book, a lot, pretty much because everything Borgstrom writes is beautiful beyond reason.)

The basic notion behind being a Changeling is that you're a person with a fae soul; that is, you're a person with a soul of myth and legend and stories. So, we looked at that and said… okay. If you're going to play a person with the soul of a mythic character, you should, y'know, play a person with the soul of a mythic character. A specific mythic character, of your chosing, with abilities that befit that sort of character. You might play The Wandering Monk, or Coyote, or The Whore, or The Architect of Babylon, to name a few of infinitely many options open to players.

From a theory standpoint, the interesting thing is what happens when you try to work out exactly what abilities a given mythic character should have. You might start by saying, “well, you're thus-and-so person holding within them thus-and-so dream—what's it like?” You find that you start out with some abilities that look perhaps rather normal (in the scheme of magical effects), but then, you begin to have abilities that look distinctly… narrative. There is, for example, a Laughter Cantrip (ask not what this means, unless you really want to know—suffice to say, it's an ability that players may have) called Theatre of the Absurd, in which a player causes something absurd to happen. The player specifies the absurd event—some consideration is taken into just how incredible and out-of-place it is in determining the effect. In a similar vein, there is a Journeys Cantrip that allows a player to make a journey an epic one, even specifying key events along the journey (a witch will be found, a gate will be broken, a glass wall will be made to break the sky, and all the rivers in heaven will run dry—or something). An Honor cantrip allows players to set up characters for a classically tragic fall; a Wrath cantrip ensures that you and only you may end your enemy's existence (and vice-versa); a Faith cantrip ensures the occurrence of a series of events that will either disillusion or redeem a character's faith. And so forth.

All these effects work, really, on a number of levels. They give players direct control over certain aspect of the narrative structure. They are actually appropriate simulations (within the system abstractions, obviously) of the sorts of things creatures that we're dealing with are capable of within the world. And one could certainly use them to further the accomplishments of objectives—Theatre of the Absurd brings to mind images of truly Goldbergian contraptions that, nevertheless, work.

I don't appear to have a point or question, per se, aside from, “Huh. That's rather cool.”, so I suppose I'll leave it at that and hope people come up with something enlightened to say.

[DevP]

FIrstly, I've heard excellent things about Fair Folk, and it would be totally germane to the discussion. I remember somethign vaguely therein about social combat or something.

As for your game - so, to clarify, are you saying that your homebrewed version of Changeling has these various Cantrips? Yes, that is quite cool. Some of these are about effect (like Theatre of the Absurd), but others are about the player's intent / narrative. I can see Cantrips like those (especially open-ended ones like "either disillusion or redemption") be a great way of a player actively flagging what sort of things would be cool to see, as a player.

[Callan S.]

They are actually appropriate simulations (within the system abstractions, obviously) of the sorts of things creatures that we're dealing with are capable of within the world.

I don't know if it'd help with the theme, but I'd say they aren't capable of these things, they are limited to doing these things this way.

Myths and legends are a learning device amongst humans. The reason they get passed on and people listen is because they might learn something that'll help them one day from that.

Thus something like:

a Wrath cantrip ensures that you and only you may end your enemy's existence

Isn't the power to do that, but an indicator that your limited to doing that...its from people wanting to learn how the conflict between two men (or whatever) ends up...they can't learn that if one of them dies from some arbitrary event. It's a rule to help the tale educate all the more clearly. "Theatre of the Absurd" is basically a plot device to propel the story onto important matters, rather than letting the focus shift onto things which don't matter to the moral being portrayed.

From a theory standpoint, the interesting thing is what happens when you try to work out exactly what abilities a given mythic character should have.

Just a quick question: Why do you have to figure out exactly what powers they have. You could, for example, allow them access to the full palette of powers at any time. This means its part of the game for the player to use powers which portray his character/myth the way he see's it. Note: This is a lot different from only using powers that suit him...that implies judgement from others. Instead, he chooses the powers his PC uses, in a way that borders on the narrativist in some ways (as use of those powers says something about your PC/myth), and at other times would be sim. Not much good for gamism...but that isn't your goal, right? Why limmit resources (like the powers), if its not a game about smart resource use (ie, gamism).

[Black Iris Dancer]

FIrstly, I've heard excellent things about Fair Folk, and it would be totally germane to the discussion. I remember somethign vaguely therein about social combat or something.

Ooh, did Borgstrom actually solidify that into an official mechanic? Neat. I remember her posting something on the Exalted forums or Wikki or somesuch about a fairly simple system for resolving social situations that didn't hurt role-playing, but didn't fail to take into account the incredible social sway of certain characters, either.

As for your game - so, to clarify, are you saying that your homebrewed version of Changeling has these various Cantrips?

Yeah. Sorry, when I start talking about Changeling, I'm pretty much talking about our homebrewed Changeling: the Twilight (working name), as opposed to the original Changeling: the Dreaming.

Yes, that is quite cool. Some of these are about effect (like Theatre of the Absurd), but others are about the player's intent / narrative.

* knod * Thankee. The cool thing about Theatre of the Absurd is mostly how in both flavour and effect, it very explicitly drops the character into Director's stance for a little while. The character is said to be able to specify any event that manipulates the scene and characters within it as scenery, props, and actors. This means that, “Kara finishes cleaning the blood off her knife. As she walks across the damp floor, she slips and falls, slitting her throat open.” is acceptable, whereas, “aliens come down out of the sky and kill everything” or even “the floor tilts and a large stone starts rolling towards him. He'd better start pushing it up the slope… oh, no, he slipped! Better start again…” aren't, no matter how absurd they may be. So, characters aren't rendered totally omnipotent, but then, what director hasn't had her hands somewhat tied by studios, production codes, actors, etc?

I can see Cantrips like those (especially open-ended ones like "either disillusion or redemption") be a great way of a player actively flagging what sort of things would be cool to see, as a player.

Yeah. I'm very fond of effects that give characters some control of the narrative and thematic structure. I really want to run a playtest to see some of the layering combinations of these effects -- Dissillusionment and Epic Journey working on the same character, say. The Director-stance cantrips are fun, too, although I worry a bit about Musical Number, for purely logistical reasons (it's probably best used in a group where everyone's good at improv and can sing…).

[Black Iris Dancer]

They are actually appropriate simulations (within the system abstractions, obviously) of the sorts of things creatures that we're dealing with are capable of within the world.

I don't know if it'd help with the theme, but I'd say they aren't capable of these things, they are limited to doing these things this way.

That's a really good interpretation. We actually thought about it, and worked it in in a number of subtle ways. For example, despite being incarnae of dreams and all the surreal uncertainty and craziness that comes along with that, the fae are remarkably static. The Dreams that comprise them, which they use to shape the world/story, are not mutable—you can't come up with new ones, say. There are just aspects of stories that are really primal and, for whatever reason, pretty much unchanging. Sure, their manifestations sway a bit, but in general, the fae have a way of doing things that has remained unchanged for their history.

You're absolutely right in suggesting that this is something that should be brought out more explicitly, and that's definitely something we should take into account.

Thus something like:

a Wrath cantrip ensures that you and only you may end your enemy's existence

Isn't the power to do that, but an indicator that your limited to doing that...its from people wanting to learn how the conflict between two men (or whatever) ends up...they can't learn that if one of them dies from some arbitrary event. It's a rule to help the tale educate all the more clearly. "Theatre of the Absurd" is basically a plot device to propel the story onto important matters, rather than letting the focus shift onto things which don't matter to the moral being portrayed.

Totally. (Tangentially, it occurs to me that there should perhaps be another Cantrip which lets a villanous character just flat-out prevent her removal from the story.)

From a theory standpoint, the interesting thing is what happens when you try to work out exactly what abilities a given mythic character should have.

Just a quick question: Why do you have to figure out exactly what powers they have.

It was a bit inaccurate of me to say, “figure out exactly what powers they should have.” It's more the case that I was working out how to systemize mythic powers, and coming up with a system that works very well for both simple abilities (witness my legendary prowess with this blade) and more story-shaping one (we are bound by love, and so nothing may tear us apart).

You could, for example, allow them access to the full palette of powers at any time. This means its part of the game for the player to use powers which portray his character/myth the way he see's it.

So, actually, there is an aspect of the game which is rather a lot like this. The Cantrips I've been mentioning are only half of the Changeling magic system. Their purpose is to provide a certain flavor by selecting a set of abilities that mythic characters tend to express with significant frequency, and making those abilities a bit easier to perform and a bit harder for the world to resist than extremely free-form dream weaving.

Dream-weaving is the other half of the fae magic system, and with it, characters can basically shape the Dreams they manifest in any way they like. Ideally, they do things befitting their Legacy (a character's Legacy is their character's role—their mythological niche, so to speak). Of course, what befits a character's Legacy depends largely on how they express themselves, so there's a bit of pleasant chicken-and-egg going on here; in any case, it's not up to anyone to say, “you can't do that, that's just totally against your Legacy,” because clearly, if it were, they wouldn't be doing that. Characters don't precisely have access to the full pallette of powers at all times (i.e. having all Dreams and all Cantrips), because that would amount to everyone being omnipotent, and a system in which everyone is completely omnipotent isn't really a system.

At first glance, the Dream weaving system looks a bit like a modified Sphere system (ala Mage), but that's really not the case at all. A Changeling's Dreams do give them various world-shaping abilities, but they are part of that character. In other words, a character's Dreams express her Legacy, and to a significant extent shape her desires.

Examples are nice, so here's one: Alice is a particular manifestation of Coyote. She has Seelie Laughter (The Fool), Unseelie Laughter (The Trickster), and Unseelie Honor (The Manacle). She has a bunch of Cantrips, too, and perhaps a few other Dreams, but those aren't important for right now; she also has ratings in her Dreams, which reflect how connected she is to those Dreams, or from a narrativist perspective, to what degree she is an agent of / expression of / focal point for the themes encompassed by those Dreams in the story. We won't deal with those ratings for now, either. Suppose then that she meets a fellow who fancies himself a force of good and righteousness in the world—a modern-day knight. She'd like to disabuse him of this notion, showing him (and the world) that such pride has its costs, and that there are no Good People or Evil People, but merely People Who Fuck Up A Bunch and Pay for it, a category that includes pretty everyone. She can shape a Dream of The Manacle, specifying that he will encounter a moment of great ethical conflict, where his honor will be tested and revealed deficient or even self-contradictory—she can specify this moment with more clarity, obviously, but I don't have a scene or setting in mind at the moment. At any rate, that might teach him something, but that alone isn't exactly her style, so she also shapes a Dream of The Trickster, saying that this moment of crisis will fall in such a way so as to humiliate him, to make all around him aware of his failure, making him a figure of pity rather than reverence, if only for a while.

I think there's a lot of potential in this system, and perhaps more importantly, it sounds like a lot of fun to use. How a player is capable of shaping the story is significantly dependent on his ability to craft good stories to tell about Dreams and how his character is manipulating them, and that strikes me as quite cool.

Note: This is a lot different from only using powers that suit him...that implies judgement from others. Instead, he chooses the powers his PC uses, in a way that borders on the narrativist in some ways (as use of those powers says something about your PC/myth), and at other times would be sim. Not much good for gamism...but that isn't your goal, right? Why limmit resources (like the powers), if its not a game about smart resource use (ie, gamism).

Very true. On the other hand, I think there is some value, even from a purely narrativist perspective, in establishing some limits. I'm not all that familiar with Universalis, but my understanding is that there is some kind of currency that in some way limits the sorts of story elements you are able to introduce. Having ratings on Dreams and glamour and such provide a similar mechanic here, while still, I think, affording players broad flexibility and expressive power.

[Callan S.]

Of course, what befits a character's Legacy depends largely on how they express themselves, so there's a bit of pleasant chicken-and-egg going on here; in any case, it's not up to anyone to say, "you can't do that, that's just totally against your Legacy," because clearly, if it were, they wouldn't be doing that. Characters don't precisely have access to the full pallette of powers at all times (i.e. having all Dreams and all Cantrips), because that would amount to everyone being omnipotent, and a system in which everyone is completely omnipotent isn't really a system.

Ah, there's a difference between a player having access to all powers (and being able to bestow them onto his PC as the player decides it would suit the PC's portrayal) and a PC having access to all powers.

I think universalis has currency so as to provoke creativity. Once your choices are reduced (because you only have X amount of currency), you tend to get more creative with what you've got to get what you want. Now, if players (not PC's) not having access to the full palette helps with this creative focus, in your opinion, then that's a good reason to go with it.

On a side note, I couldn't help but remember the old over the edge idea of PC's realising their PC's. Here, the fae know their actions are defined by generations of mankind. But what if they try to become self defining...to take destiny by the throat and shape it, rather than be a reflection of someone elses destiny. To be like a human. How do they do that...is their urge to take destiny by the throat yet another reflection of humanity, and thus impotent by it being a reflection?. And what happens to humans when/if their myths start defining themselves. Would that start to make man a reflection of the faes destiny? Do some men know this, and secret societies are at work to stop this from happening?

I'm just seeing that as a continual crisis point in a game like that, and hell fun to explore. Just thought I'd note it, in case its interesting.

[Black Iris Dancer]

Of course, what befits a character's Legacy depends largely on how they express themselves, so there's a bit of pleasant chicken-and-egg going on here; in any case, it's not up to anyone to say, "you can't do that, that's just totally against your Legacy," because clearly, if it were, they wouldn't be doing that. Characters don't precisely have access to the full pallette of powers at all times (i.e. having all Dreams and all Cantrips), because that would amount to everyone being omnipotent, and a system in which everyone is completely omnipotent isn't really a system.

Ah, there's a difference between a player having access to all powers (and being able to bestow them onto his PC as the player decides it would suit the PC's portrayal) and a PC having access to all powers.

Ah, okay, I think I understand what you meant now. In a sense, then, players do have access to all powers, just not at all times, and not necessarily in all chronicles. We generally follow a fairly classical point-based pattern for character creation—players have X number of points to spend on various traits, among which are included Dreams, Cantrips, Legacy and so forth. We diverge slightly, in that we suggest multiple possible point breakdowns, depending on the intensity (or, y'know, “power”) of the character you're trying to play. One may play anyone from a Changeling fresh out of Crysalis to a truly Primordial Fae, possibly even an incarnation of one of the Dreams (wanna play Death? Go ahead.) Obviously, the dynamic and nature of your play group and the sort of story you're trying to tell will impact what Changelings you'll and your GM will want to consider.

I think universalis has currency so as to provoke creativity. Once your choices are reduced (because you only have X amount of currency), you tend to get more creative with what you've got to get what you want. Now, if players (not PC's) not having access to the full palette helps with this creative focus, in your opinion, then that's a good reason to go with it.

This is pretty much what I was referring to by vaguely saying there's some value in limits. Additionally, a significant focus of the game, I think, ought to be establishing the PCs' sense of identity (what can I say? I'm a sucker for character-driven stories.) Of course, forcing players to choose ability X over ability Y is not in all (or even many) cases a good way of fleshing out characters, but in this case, when both X and Y are character traits as much as they are abilities, I think it has value.

On a side note, I couldn't help but remember the old over the edge idea of PC's realising their PC's. Here, the fae know their actions are defined by generations of mankind. But what if they try to become self defining...to take destiny by the throat and shape it, rather than be a reflection of someone elses destiny. To be like a human. How do they do that...is their urge to take destiny by the throat yet another reflection of humanity, and thus impotent by it being a reflection?. And what happens to humans when/if their myths start defining themselves. Would that start to make man a reflection of the faes destiny?

Well, to say the fae are just reflections of humanity isn't exactly the case. In this cosmology, the Waking and Dreaming worlds are both fundamental and metaphysically equal parts of the universe, and they build off and reflect each other. Neither is the object and neither is the reflection—both are reflected, and both are true. When people dream, do they shape the Dreaming, or does the Dreaming show them truths they need to see? Yes.

In other words, myth reflects reality which reflects myth which reflects reality, ad infinitum—an infinite cascade of funhouse mirrors.

Do some men know this, and secret societies are at work to stop this from happening?

Well, funny story about that. Some people know about Changelings, yes. These people are very rare, and, frequently, considered quite insane (also frequent: actual insanity). Some of these people serve or are otherwise related to the fae, but some of them are just really dedicated, otherwise fairly normal people, with their own desires and agendas. We've just started developing ideas for Changeling organizations and such, and only have sketches of a few other organizations that just deal with Fae. There is at least one group of humans working against the Fae (amongst other things)—the Inquisition. Ironically, although the Inquisition is mostly comprised of humans, there are a not-small number of Changelings working within the Church, and even a few within the Inquisition itself. They stay away from the iron.

What about the rest of humanity? Why don't more people know about them? Changelings are certainly capable of doing some pretty damn impressive things…disappearing into nothingness, swallowing people whole, slaying an army with a single blow, throwing the Empire State building like a lance, etc. And most Changelings want to be remembered, on some very primal level if nothing else. Unfortunately, the waking world is such that legends do not walk here. Changelings, if seen as anything other than their mortal selves, tend to be normalized within the world. You might have punched a skyscraper down in full view of a hundred witnesses, but by the time it hits the 6'oclock news, it was a terrorist bombing. Disappear from plain sight? “Oh, no, I remember her leaving… she said something about having to run to Tokyo… odd phrase.…” This effect is somewhat taken from the original Changeling; it's called the Mists. Some people are probably immune:

“What's wrong with you? All you talk about is aliens and ghosts and seeing Bigfoot in your garage!”
“He was using the belt sander…”

[Sydney Freedberg]

This sounds nothing like the Changeling book on my game shelf. This sounds a hell of a lot better.

Now, I don't know if this is actually the case, but it's quite possible that -- rather like all those people whose D&D house rules turned into "heartbreakers" they went on to publish -- you've written something that could become, or already is, its own publishable game. Some things like the term "cantrip," the term "Changeling" itself, specific faery-type splats (e.g. Trolls are this, Pooka are that, etc.), and the "let's count all the f***ing dots" system of mechanics might have to go to avoid copyright infringement, but those holdover features are probably getting in your way, not helping you, at this point. I'd suggest looking at the remaining bits of the Storyteller system and Changeling game-book that you're still using and asking, "Do I really need this, as this game is now? Or can I replace it with something that suits my purpose better?"

Think about it. Maybe we'll see you in the Indie Design forum sometime....

P.S.: What is a "Black Iris Dancer," anyway, besides cool and cryptic?

[Black Iris Dancer]

This sounds nothing like the Changeling book on my game shelf. This sounds a hell of a lot better.

Why, thank you. I actually picked up and read some bits of the Changeling book a month or so ago, and it was then I realized how utterly different this game is. We think it's better, too.

(Excerpt from a conversation between my friend and I, discussing the cantrip “Enhancement”:
Him: …wait, any attribute, or just physical ones?
Me: Well, any of them. I mean, you could have a cybernetic arm for more strength, or you could have wired reflexes to enhance Wits, or hormone conditioners to enhance Composure, or nanotech to enhance Intelligence... what?
Him: I'm just realizing how very different this game is from the original.
Me: Oh?
Him: Dreams of science fiction?
Me: Oh. Yeah.)

Now, I don't know if this is actually the case, but it's quite possible that -- rather like all those people whose D&D house rules turned into "heartbreakers" they went on to publish -- you've written something that could become, or already is, its own publishable game.

This has actually occurred to me. The most likely possibility in my mind has been “throw it on-line for free,” and honestly I think no matter what else we do, we'll probably do at least that. Because, really, I'm more interested in people reading it than making money off it.

Some things like the term "cantrip," the term "Changeling" itself, specific faery-type splats (e.g. Trolls are this, Pooka are that, etc.), and the "let's count all the f***ing dots" system of mechanics might have to go to avoid copyright infringement, but those holdover features are probably getting in your way, not helping you, at this point.

We've talked about changing the name a number of times. Mostly, we're trying to figure out a better one. On the plus side, “Changeling” is an English word, and too broadly used in this field to be trademarked. On the downside, some people will think of shape-shifters, and some people will think of Changeling: the Dreaming, and both impressions are pretty much wrong, so…

I think we can probably still use “cantrip”—again with it being an English word, and one definitely used in fae lore and literature for quite a while.

The kiths are almost totally gone. There do still exist certain mythological bloodlines—the Sidhe, for example—but they exist only when there's actually a dream of that bloodline that has come into existence. (In the case of the Sidhe, they exist because of dreams of nobles and feudal rulers that soaked into Europe for a number of centuries.) In any case, the stereotypes and whatnot are gone, and the Sidhe are more reminiscent of the original Celtic tales of such creatures.

I'd suggest looking at the remaining bits of the Storyteller system and Changeling game-book that you're still using and asking, "Do I really need this, as this game is now? Or can I replace it with something that suits my purpose better?"

The system and world are really the last sticking point. I rather like the World of Darkness, especially the mortals book. Of course, it's not like that feel can't be created elsewhere, so really, the world isn't that big a deal. More relevantly, actually very happy with the Storytelling system (WoD 2.0). It's not perfect, but it's remarkably smooth in practice, and designing a new system brings with it all sorts of potential problems. Also, there are acceptance issues—with a system everyone knows… everyone already knows the system. It also might seem as though we wouldn't want to deal with mortal skills and whatnot as much, but actually, I still want those to be significant, and in the game. I want having to do things mortally and possibly getting ganked in completely banal ways to be a part of the game and story, because that's an important overall theme.

Also, I like the idea of being able to toss Changelings into other WoD games. It's not the saddest thing in the world to lose, but I do like it.

Think about it. Maybe we'll see you in the Indie Design forum sometime....

Yeah. Having said all that, I'm thinking over again and thinking, basically, that our lives are a lot easier if we don't have to deal with White Wolf's IP. And systems design isn't too bad. So,
you probably will see me in that forum at some point relatively soon.

P.S.: What is a "Black Iris Dancer," anyway, besides cool and cryptic?

Well, see, now that you've said that, I can't just give it away, can I? Here's a hint: “Iris” doesn't refer to the flower. Well, it sortof does, because irises are pretty, but it's more relevant to the body part.

[contracycle]

We've talked about changing the name a number of times. Mostly, we're trying to figure out a better one. On the plus side, "Changeling" is an English word, and too broadly used in this field to be trademarked. On the downside, some people will think of shape-shifters, and some people will think of Changeling: the Dreaming, and both impressions are pretty much wrong, so...

I propose Empyrean.

  1.
        1. The highest reaches of heaven, believed by the ancients to be a realm of pure fire or light.
        2. The abode of God and the angels; paradise.
  2. The sky.


Ratrher less fair folk and more angelic than your concept, but it should convey ethereality etc.

[Sydney Freedberg]

By the way, if you're mucking about with archetypes and the collective unconscious, good sources for alternative perspectives from WoD, which might help stir the IP pot a bit, are the game Unknown Armies and the books listed (in the back/on the website, I forget which) as their inspirations -- especially Tim Power's Last Call, which manages to combine Tarot, Jungian archetypes, the Fisher King, and how mob boss Bugsy Siegel created modern Las Vegas....