Fully Mutable Characters Idea

[Kenway]

I've attempted to make and customize some rpgs, but I've come across several snags.
 Character creation was alot faster than any store-bought game I've run, but it wasn't fast enough!

 1.  So I thought of a system where stats themselves aren't fixed.  You start with 4 default stats:  Strength, Dexterity, IQ, EQ.  You rank them in order, with the highest having a value of 4 and lowest 1.  By "spending a dice," you can rearrange the stats at any time.  But the DM can change the names of stats at anytime.  For example, if the DM decides to have an emphasis on fighting, he may decide to change the stats to:  Strength, Agility, Endurance, Speed.  And if the next portion of the adventure involves urban interaction, he may change the stats to:  Perception, Bargaining, Manners, Public Speaking.  As you all know, budding game designers have trouble figuring out exactly how many and which stats you need.  Now, more or less, the stats are determined on the fly as soon as they are needed.  The DM might decide on some permanent stat groups, like for combat, but they can be changed to match unusual situations.

  2.  Further, skills can be mutable like this.  You've probably have the unfortunate luck of making up a really ill-conceived character, or a character that didn't suit the adventure.  Or at the very least, a character that had a couple skills you never used.  This system has players only having  3? skills at a time.  Using the rules described above, you can customize your character right before fighting.  It can be cumbersome when some systems require players to list 20+ skills.

 Issues:  Lots!
 -The use of "dice" (karma points or whatever) are necessary so players don't abuse the system, especially when picking fighting skills.
 -What kind of setting would be compatible with this?  I think some kind of Matrix (the movie) setting would work, since it simulates how the characters "download" skills as they are needed.

[Mike Holmes]

FWIW, these are some of the same design concerns that went into coming up with Universalis' CharGen. Which is why we designed it so that characters are created during the course of play, on the fly. We think that it's a really strong feature of the system.

This is easy enough to implement in any point based RPG. Just start the first scenario, and let player spend points at any point along the way. When they have spent all the character's point, the character is finished. This allows you to start a game much more quickly than using before-play CharGen, and it's a blast as well.

When a PC first enters a scene, he should describe the character, and pay for any advantages his looks give him. If he works out, Strength and other stats can be determine at that point. The neatest part is how, when the group needs a skill, some player will "remember" that his character has that skill (which may require an explanation, or even a flashback to describe it's acquisition). Over the course of the game the character becomes fleshed out in a manner similar to how characters are revealed in books and other media.

Since the characters can adapt like this, you don't have to worry about what they'll be like when you make that first scenario. They'll adapt to fit. Keep that in mind when making that scenario, as it may end up heavily affecting what kind of characters are produced. This can be a cool effect, and is much like a "pilot" episode of a TV show.

Of course, if the GM allows it, players may keep some points unspent for future scenarios, so that facets of those characters can be revealed at that time.

Mike

[Mike Holmes]

Now that I think of it, here's an example of a game with fully mutable stats:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/hosted/sdemory/monmouri.doc

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Hello everyone,

I think this thread exists in a kind of odd limbo in which (a) terms and concepts are permitted to vary but (b) certain elements are being arbitrarily taken as given. To put it more clearly, Kenway is assuming you need attributes in the first place.

Check out the discussion in http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1404">In-and-out of the box

Story Engine uses a system very much like what you describe: Mind, Matter, Chaos, and Spirit are the basal attributes, and different characters have different descriptors for them; in practice, they come to different things in different games. I also recommend looking at Hero Wars to see a game in which there really are no fixed attributes or skills. A character really is a series of terms, which a number attached to each term.

Finally, the discussion seems to assume that the GM ("DM," whatever) is a more reliable judge of what the attributes ought to be called or what they ought to do, than the players. I can accept the idea that someone needs to be the final arbiter, but I don't really see why the GM is automatically the right someone or why players are automatically assumed to be prone to abuse.

Best,
Ron

[Kenway]

Thanks for all your input.

 -Regarding Ron's comments about stats as a "given," I guess my original motivation was to help people when they were customizing FUDGE, and to reduce the number of skills you had to write down.
 -The mechanics for that Mon Mouri game is fairly similar to what I was thinking.
 -I looked at the In/Out of the Box thread and then read Over The Edge and Feng Shui at the library again.

 I'm trying to incorporate on-the-fly "packing and unpacking" of skill trees/rules, sort of how Instant Fuzion is a simpler version of Full Fuzion.
 I'll look at Hero Wars a couple more times.


 Oh, one last question:  is it be feasible to have  actual GNS and Fortune/Drama/Karma "dials" that the players/dm could control during a game session?

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Kenway,

You wrote,
"Oh, one last question: is it be feasible to have actual GNS and Fortune/Drama/Karma 'dials' that the players/dm could control during a game session?"

If it's feasible, it's exceptionally advanced game design. Check out Scattershot for a design which aims at spinning at least a couple aspects of these dials in a coherent way.

Some would say that the more "play" you give these dials, the more you are merely packing several different games into one place and calling it one thing. Sort of the Holy Trinity problem. (Three? One! But, well, three! Except, one! etc)

Best,
Ron