Religion and Homeland

[James Holloway]

I was going to edit my previous post to add this point about conversion:

most people have Worship Orlanthcarl or whatever at 17. That's an OK rating, but it's not super great. Their god-talkers will tend to have much higher ratings. But it's the Orlanthi god-talkers who get chopped down first by the Lunars or by ambitious non-Orlanthi.

So most people, just like today, aren't very religious. They know that religion can help them do magic, but theistic magic is kind of a long run for a short slide. To really get the good stuff, you have to spend most of your life in worship, and that's costly. For most people, although they know the gods are real, it's much less important to them than living a peaceful life. But it also takes a certain amount of effort to change people from their traditions, particularly in a society where almost all males worship Orlanth.

Which is why the religious question in Sartar is so vexed: a small, highly-motivated group can change a lot.

[Mike Holmes]

I've had this discussion with you before, Gasreth, and I think that we're just not going to see eye to eye on it - I agree with Donald's points. I think that HQ might be broken for you, because of this, but it's just not for others. And not because we're sticking our heads in the sand. It's a fantasy world, and we can buy whatever conventions about it we want to buy. What breaks your suspension of disbelief just doesn't break anyone else's.

Actually I so think that this topic is far enough removed from what I wanted to discuss in this thread that I think it should have it's own thread. I don't have any of the problems you have with understanding how it's supposed to work, I have one little problem with one little game mechanic for the players (and the vast majority of the thread was not about that, but about how culture relates to religions in terms of keyword mechanisms). I don't have a problem with any of the in-game propositions.

Mike

[James Holloway]

Actually I so think that this topic is far enough removed from what I wanted to discuss in this thread that I think it should have it's own thread.

And with that, I'll close my head. Actually, this conversation made me think a bit about the metaphysics and what I want to emphasize in my early Sartar game, so I'm pretty happy I had it.

[contracycle]

Actually I so think that this topic is far enough removed from what I wanted to discuss in this thread that I think it should have it's own thread.

I find this totally inexplicable - your posts in this thread lay out exactly the problems I discussed with you previously.  I don't have Some Other objection.

I don't have any of the problems you have with understanding how it's supposed to work,

The please enlighten me - I am all ears.

I have one little problem with one little game mechanic for the players (and the vast majority of the thread was not about that, but about how culture relates to religions in terms of keyword mechanisms). I don't have a problem with any of the in-game propositions.

Actually, the problem with disasociating culture and religion is exactly that problem.

[Mike Holmes]

I've said twice in this thread (at least, may be more), that I don't have any problem with the idea of the people of Glorantha having to suffer through "mysteries." That end of it all works for me. What I don't get is why one would want to make some part of this cosmology spill over to the metagame mechanisms. Basically, the problem that I have with misapplied worship is that it makes Esvulari characters less powerful than non-Esvulari characters, which would make players less likely to play them. It's unbalanced.

All of the other argument about the in-game nature was to show why I didn't see an absolute need for a mechanism to represent the misapplied worship. That if it's a mystery in-game that you certainly don't have to represent that metagame.

James, "close your head?" Not sure what you're getting at. If you want to pursue this line of discussion, start another thread and do so. You don't need my thread to do that.

None of what you two are discussing has any impact that I can see on how to represent cases of mixed cultures/religions. That is, if I go with James, which I do, then I'm right back where I started. If I go with Gareth...I dunno, I guess I'd have to not play HQ.

If either of you can explain how the subject applies to the mechanics, then I might be interesting in continuing the discussion in this thread.

Mike

[James Holloway]

James, "close your head?" Not sure what you're getting at. If you want to pursue this line of discussion, start another thread and do so. You don't need my thread to do that.

"Close your head" is 1930s slang for "shut your mouth," that's all. I just meant I'd hush up.

[James Holloway]

Basically, the problem that I have with misapplied worship is that it makes Esvulari characters less powerful than non-Esvulari characters, which would make players less likely to play them. It's unbalanced.

On this point, I agree with you completely, except that I think it'll just mean that people don't play Esvulari characters who don't worship St. Dormal.

It's possible to design a low-magic Esvulari, I suppose. In fact, I think that's kind of the point of the Esvulari. But, yeah, I agree, I think this is a bit of a flaw. It's possible that when the relevant book comes out, they'll be un-nerfed in some way.

[Mike Holmes]

There seems to have been a post to this thread that got lost in the hack attack. If you posted recently to the thread, check to see that your last post is still there.

Thanks,
Mike

[lightcastle]

This whole Misapplied Worship and Concentration thing still bugs me.

As you said Mike, mechanically it just seems to not work right.

I have considered making the otherworlds -10 for unconcentrated people, and 0 for concentrated in their own otherworld, -20 for concentrated in an alien one.  Assuming your group HeroQuests a lot, that at least gives some teeth to that.

But since you can apparantly concentrate to either an otherworld or a power, I'm not sure what that's supposed to be. (Add the fact that Theism concentration also gets that bonus of halving their improvisational penalties.)

And yeah, Misapplied worship bugs the hell out of me. I sort of understand it, but since the world CAN be changed by HeroQuesting according to canon, I don't understand why it exists.

[Mike Holmes]

I have considered making the otherworlds -10 for unconcentrated people, and 0 for concentrated in their own otherworld, -20 for concentrated in an alien one.  Assuming your group HeroQuests a lot, that at least gives some teeth to that.

Hmmm. Interesting idea. I might get rid of the -10, however; I just don't see the need for any more in incentive to concentrate. Basically the -20 would only apply for a character who was concentrated in the wrong world.

But since you can apparantly concentrate to either an otherworld or a power, I'm not sure what that's supposed to be.

I'd count them as unconcentrated for this purpose. That is, -10 for otherworlds that the being is not supposed to come from.

(Add the fact that Theism concentration also gets that bonus of halving their improvisational penalties.)

Not sure what you're getting at here.

And yeah, Misapplied worship bugs the hell out of me. I sort of understand it, but since the world CAN be changed by HeroQuesting according to canon, I don't understand why it exists.

I can come up with in-game rationales - maybe it's about winning the Hero Wars, and the gods are not "made" but converted theselves or something. But, again, that's not my problem with it. My problem is that a player is penalized for his creative choice, by lessening the impact of his player currency - basically being punished for his character's error. That I just don't get. The problem occurs, I don't doubt, because of the slight confusion that occurs between HP being about in-game character "improvement" and between being a metagame mechanic. There are some things about the HP system that indicate an incoherence here. The double cost (or, rather, inability to gain the advantages of concentration) for missapplied worship is one of them.

Mike

[lightcastle]

Quote:   
(Add the fact that Theism concentration also gets that bonus of halving their improvisational penalties.)   
Not sure what you're getting at here.

Improvising feats from affinities is a -10 modifier. It goes down to -5 for concentrated theists.  As far as I can tell, there is no equivalent in Animism or Wizardry.

And while I have some problems with misapplied worship from within the game world, you are absolutely correct that the real problem is the incentive situation.

[Mike Holmes]

Quote:   
(Add the fact that Theism concentration also gets that bonus of halving their improvisational penalties.)   
Not sure what you're getting at here.

Improvising feats from affinities is a -10 modifier. It goes down to -5 for concentrated theists.  As far as I can tell, there is no equivalent in Animism or Wizardry.

Right, but how does that relate to the problem in question? Actually, concentrated practitioners can get Spirit Allies, so that's a concentration related bonus for a "First Level" magic keyword that's not theism.

Mike

[lightcastle]

I hadn't remembered that. I was bringing it up just in the way that it seems weird and mechanically inconsistent. (Concentration.)  That it gived some bonuses to Theism only seemed to add to that in my view. I had forgotten the animisim thing.