Constructing Good Bangs

[Christopher Kubasik]

Hi Ron,

I've been going through the threads you linked (and the internal links).

As I do that, could you give me a clue as to how Bangs are "achieved - but completely structurally different -" in HeroQuest.

I would assume that the Traits on the HeroQuest character sheet (or at least many of them) serve a similiar function as the diagram on the back of a Sorcerer character sheet.

But I might be missing something here.

Christopher

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Chris,

The little stuff first.

1. There is no "centering" of issues on the sheet in HeroQuest.  

2. The character goal in HeroQuest is vague and potentially totally irrelevant.

Both of those look like criticisms as if I'm saying Sorcerer is right and HeroQuest is wrong. That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that HeroQuest looks elsewhere for Bangs than internal character structure.

Now for the big stuff, or that "elsewhere." As I've written about many times, playing HeroQuest relies on a setting which is rife with apparently irreconcilable conflict. Understanding that "irreconcilable" concept is very, very important - I'm not talking about Culture A vs. Culture B, but rather that each culture is now ripped asunder into, for example ABBab vs. BbbbAaa or something similar. Each one is full of proposed compromise, collaboration, hybridization, and different kinds of oppositions.

In other words, you cannot reconcile a given cultural clash in HeroQuest simply by choosing one side to fight for. Both sides (or rather, all, because there are so many ways to slice it) are fucked up.

Glorantha is predicated on such things. Other settings are easily adapted to the HeroQuest system insofar as they carry the same potential. The ease of adapting other settings to HeroQuest is a direct function of this feature.

So you do get Bangs in HeroQuest play because the characters' keywords are each loaded with tons of community strife at a setting-level. By adding personality traits and a few other details (Flaws, etc), you create a little microcosm, per character, of how setting-strife gets manifested in your character's existence. This latter bit is a little bit like the Sorcerer approach, but I suggest that even the blandest HQ sheet (no particular contradictions among relationships, personalities, flaws) is still hard core Bang meat at the setting/community strife level.

I don't think I'm making any of this up. I submit that every single sentence I have written here has an attendant paragraph of explanation and justification in the HeroQuest rules. Most especially the notion that your characters regardless of details are the nexus or focus for the kind of strife I'm talking about.

It is tremendously successful in play as witness over and over again by actual play accounts and all the great mentoring that goes on in the HeroQuest forum.

Such an approach toward "where little Bangs come from" is structurally different from the Sorcerer approach, in which you might think of the character inflicting conflict upon the setting (whatever it might be, but specifically a set of relationships among fictional characters) rather than the other way around. The devil is, if you will, in precisely those details which in HeroQuest can be left more-or-less totally up to Color if someone wants them to.

In practice, after some sessions of play, it's all the same thing really, because Situation is always composed of Characters-in-Setting. But at the moment we are talking about where Bangs come from, and I'm also focusing on the initial steps of play rather than between-session prep twenty sessions down the road.

Best,
ron

[Trevis Martin]

Wow Ron, interesting.  Is this then what is meant by 'Setting Based Narrativism?'  Bangs that emerge from the clash of Evironmental elements that force the characters to choose between them?

Trevis

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Squinting at you, Trevis, puzzled.

The answer is a straightforward "yes." I can't imagine what else "setting-based Narrativism" would be. That seems like such a no-brainer to me.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention earlier, toss Nine Worlds into the same family with HeroQuest and Legends of Alyria for this issue.

Best,
Ron

[Trevis Martin]

Heh, well sure, it seems obvious when YOU say it.  It was just something I had a hard time connecting to as its gone by me in the past.  Just a little aha for me is all.  Its the bang stuff that helped me see it though.

thanks,

Trevis

[Bill Cook]

Assuming one is interested in narrativist bangs: how do you go about brainstorming them? Do you discuss them with the player beforehand, or save them as a surprise? What indicates that you might have a good idea for a bang?

Ideally, you want to have NPC's defined by opposition to the PC's. That way, you end up with a nice palette of things to choose from. It's also important not to decide how play is going to go. I describe this as "writing step A and letting play become the antecedents for the next step A," as opposed to ever writing a step B. For Sorcerer, it's something that the GM writes during preparation and then presents during play, without prior discussion.

Probably the most trustworthy indicator is that you're intersecting with material the player has identified as investing. All you're doing is lighting a match; the players provide the explosion.

For example, there's a character in my current BW campaign who's a half-breed highwayman, trying to rally a band of disenfranchised raiders of his kind and sack his birth town. Last session, he tried to buy conscripts off an Orcish band and ended up getting beaten and enslaved. So here's a Bang for him:

Code Select Expand


A half-breed wakes you in the night. He pins your cuff with a spike and raises a mallet over his head.
 "Be Still." Clang! Your bonds are broken. He hands you your sword.
 "I am Gutter Dog. We tire of the Axe Hand masters. Will you lead our revolt?"


** ** **

Sorcerer & Sword really is nothing but 112 pages devoted to the proper construction and disposal of Bangs.

Oh, bother! Now I'll have to buy it.

[M. J. Young]

Alan, I appreciate your point, but if taken to heart I would need to rephrase my initial post.  While I think GNS is a nice theory, in practical application you might end up with everyone at the gaming table with different agendas and an "incoherent" rule system.  I'd prefer not to split hairs in that way, since my initial request was for practical advice.

So, let me rephrase the initial post: what are good ways to develop a "ka-pow" (because it's not a bang) that is...

1.  Insistent
2.  Open-ended
3.  Meaningful, either for...
        a. the Players, which would be a Narrativist concern?
        b. the imaginary characters, which would be Gamist?
        c. the imaginary setting, which would be Simulationist?

It is certainly granted that you could have an entirely dysfunctional game running (the word for games in which players are fighting for control of the group agendum--incoherent applies to rules systems and only means that in order to run a functional game you must perform some combination of discarding and adding elements to get a consistent creative agendum from play).

However, let me suggest that if you're trying to create what you are here calling a "ka-pow" for a player, the very first step amounts to identifying (even if only in a very nebulous and ill-defined way) his creative agendum: what is it that he likes about role playing games? What drives him into situations he enjoys? If he is really engaged by issues, he's narrativist, and you need to provide a bang. If he's engaged by challenges, that's gamist, and you need to provide an opportunity to step up to a new challenge. If he's engaged in discovery, you need to open a new door for a new direction.

If we're in a dungeon and we're opening a door we've been told will lead to something important, and that's the moment for the "ka-pow"

[*]a narrativist bang might be the suggestion that the friend who gave you the information about this door may have betrayed you;[*]a gamist challenge might be that there is a puzzle that must be solved to get through the door;[*]a simulationist opportunity might be that there is a stairway leading down into deeper darkness into an undiscovered area.[/list:u]Getting the right ka-pow means knowing what it is that motivates the player, and that means having some idea of his creative agendum.

--M. J. Young