Immersive-Relevant Realism (essay)

[LordSmerf]

Daniel,

Excellent point actually.  But assuming we have two equally plausible worlds, what makes one more conducive for telling a "quality tale"?  I think that's the thrust of my question.  You've said that "realism" is a tool to achieve immersion, and I agree with you there.  What is this other thing that you have to have?  How do you identify it?  Why don't you have any interest in immersion in the real world?

Thomas

[James Holloway]

Here's what I failed to say in the essay: Concerning facts that exist in both the Primary and Secondary worlds, I recommend using (researched) knowledge from the Primary world in the Secondary world (especially those facts that affect people).  Physical laws [especially combative] are present in both worlds.  Using these facts from our world in this other world strengthens realism, which aids in the psychological connection (immersion) from player to character.  (Wounds impair, outnumbering causes disadvantage, shields are vastly superior to mere dogding, etc..)  

While I agree in general, this sounds like you're arguing backward -- you don't find games that have these rules aid immersion because that's what the "Secondary world" is like -- you find "Secondary worlds" like that aid immersion. Because, of course, the SIS is not necessarily like anything other than what we've all decided it's like.

[Domhnall]

Thomas,

Well, I think that is a very large issue.  For me, the same general criteria for great literature applies to great campaign-creation (believable characters whom I feel strongly about [for good or bad], clever plots, developed worlds/civilizations, etc.).  As to why I dislike identical worlds to the Primary world—this must be because I hate modernity (which is another huge issue).  

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While I agree in general, this sounds like you're arguing backward -- you don't find games that have these rules aid immersion because that's what the "Secondary world" is like -- you find "Secondary worlds" like that aid immersion. Because, of course, the SIS is not necessarily like anything other than what we've all decided it's like.

After several readings, I still am unsure of how to interpret your response.  Could you reiterate?  Thanks.

[James Holloway]

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While I agree in general, this sounds like you're arguing backward -- you don't find games that have these rules aid immersion because that's what the "Secondary world" is like -- you find "Secondary worlds" like that aid immersion. Because, of course, the SIS is not necessarily like anything other than what we've all decided it's like.

After several readings, I still am unsure of how to interpret your response.  Could you reiterate?  Thanks.

Sure thing! Looking back on that post, I may have been a little shorthand about it. Let's see if I can make this a little clearer.

Well, you said that you prefer systems that model facts that exist in the "Secondary world" as being similar to our world (particularly in the way they influence combat outcomes), right? What I mean is that those facts don't exist in the Secondary world -- the SIS -- until you make them exist by either choosing to play in a world where someone else has previously established they do (and I'm not sure about Middle Earth there, personally, but that's neither here nor there) or by creating a world where they do.

So what you're saying is that you find a baseline setting which is not too dissimilar from the real world in terms of the physics conducive to immersion, and that therefore you like rules which model things that way. I just don't think there's any need to add this extra step of "the facts exist this way in the game world, so therefore we should model them," because of course they don't really exist until we model them.

[Domhnall]

[...Sure thing! Looking back on that post, I may have been a little shorthand about it. Let's see if I can make this a little clearer.

Well, you said that you prefer systems that model facts that exist in the "Secondary world" as being similar to our world (particularly in the way they influence combat outcomes), right? What I mean is that those facts don't exist in the Secondary world -- the SIS -- until you make them exist by either choosing to play in a world where someone else has previously established they do (and I'm not sure about Middle Earth there, personally, but that's neither here nor there) or by creating a world where they do.

So what you're saying is that you find a baseline setting which is not too dissimilar from the real world in terms of the physics conducive to immersion, and that therefore you like rules which model things that way. I just don't think there's any need to add this extra step of "the facts exist this way in the game world, so therefore we should model them," because of course they don't really exist until we model them.

Ah, I see.  I should have been much clearer in the preceding post on that point.  Let me try again:

I assert that facts of the Primary world that can be put into the Secondary world without interfering with the (supernatural) aspects (and which particularly assist immersion), should be.  So, yes, realistic (or leaning towards realistic) combative rules, physical laws, psychology, etc. can used in both without interfering with the supernatural laws in the Secondary world.  Rules concerning (alien to the Primary world) "monsters", spells, or anything necessarily not from the Primary world obviously cannot be transferred into the Secondary worlds.  

Obviously people are free to create their game worlds any way they want, where there is very little correlation from the Primary to the Secondary worlds.  But, my thesis is that the closer the two worlds can be (in certain areas) then the greater the immersion potential of that Otherworld.  

Clearer?

[James Holloway]

I assert that facts of the Primary world that can be put into the Secondary world without interfering with the (supernatural) aspects (and which particularly assist immersion), should be.  

(snip)

But, my thesis is that the closer the two worlds can be (in certain areas) then the greater the immersion potential of that Otherworld.  

Clearer?

Sure -- I'm just saying that what we're seeing here are not some kind of general game design principles but a list of the specific things that you want out of a game. You value immersion, and you like realism but not reality. This is a list of the specific elements in system and setting that you have to have to have an enjoyable game experience ("have to have to have?" Geez).

And that's good. Nothing makes for a happier gamer than knowing what you want.

[Domhnall]

So assuming that immersion is the goal of a RPer, do you all agree with my argument that realism aids it?

[James Holloway]

So assuming that immersion is the goal of a RPer, do you all agree with my argument that realism aids it?

Well, it does for me -- I do like to get a sense of immersion (though I'm probably a little bit milder than most people) in some games, and elements that aren't naturalistic (usually characters rather than rules, actually) tend to annoy me out of that. But I can't speak for the majority. I suspect some people don't have a problem with it.

But then, for me, I enjoy settings that are or are very close to the actual world, which is not true of you -- so it could be said that realism actually harms your immersion, right? You need a certain amount of realism: not too little, not too much.

edit: and what that amount is, and the areas in which it's important (combat is obviously important to you; politics and religion to me; languages to someone else) I suspect, will differ from player to player.

[LordSmerf]

So assuming that immersion is the goal of a RPer, do you all agree with my argument that realism aids it?

Again, swap "realism" for "plausibility" and I'm with you.  This is absolutely a deal-breaker for me.  If you believe that something isn't "realistic" (that it isn't plausible) then it doesn't matter whether it really is or not, it will hurt your immersion in the ways you describe.

Thomas