RPGNow + LuLu

[Bardsandsages]

Not sure why you find the need to air this in public... but there was a confusion in what you wanted and we resolved it, no harm in that. The LULU account will be locked to our staff only in April.

As for RPGMall, that's a whole different staff and they pick products off shelves and add them to an order and ship them out. They do not need to deal with LULU and the hassles of making orders or paying 2 shipping charges... it's not the way RPGMall does business.

As you say, things are still new and in flux... it's possible RPGMall will even go away. We'll see.

James

I "aired this in public" to illustrate some bugs to others, but also to say that I think the partnership will be a good one.  I'm very happy with how things are going with my account at RPGNow so far, but I was frustrated by the lack of continuity in communications so I shared that.

[Ron Edwards]

'Scuse me, but there is one content moderator in this forum, which is me.

If anyone needs any discussion about what is and isn't correct to be posting here, I'll provide that. Y'all's job is to carry on with the discussion about RPGmall and Lulu. I think this is a tremendous set of opportunities depending on how the principals choose to iron out the details, and I'd like to know more about it.

Thanks,
Ron

[rpghost]

Well RPGMall has nothing to do with LULU. RPGMall still uses it's original printer (which now offers lamination too) since they are geared toward 10+ runs. Lulu will not give a price break till over 50 copies and their per copy costs is much higher. So they serve two different needs. RPGNow is using LULU for true no-cost up front delivery of printed books that we also sell in PDF format. If you do not want to sell PDF at all, RPGNow will not sell your book. You must agree to sell PDF and optionally Print at RPGNow. RPGMall will sell Print only, but not unless you send us some copies or we print up 10 of them to have on hand.

RPGNow has some 50,000+ regular customers. RPGMall has a couple thousand. So you know where the sales are going to be coming first. RPGMall, while initially had some intent to fill a market need of an alternate resale channel, no retailers want to buy from us unless we do 50% off and free shipping. So either we have to rework things at RPGMall, Sell the site off, or just close it down. But the way it is now, it's mainally a direct-to-customer outlet for your books if you don't want to bother with a store front yourself.

RPGNow is already selling more POD books then RPGMall... but granted it's a slow pace until the idea/word spreads that we're doing it and our print ads come out over the summer.

What more would you like to know?

James

[Ron Edwards]

That's a good summary, James, and especially helpful to those like me who are continually confused about the "mall" vs. the "now." Thanks for posting it.

Best,
Ron

[madelf]

Lulu will not give a price break till over 50 copies

Quoted from the lulu website:

"You can purchase books in bulk and save. Bulk order discounts are available in quantities as low as 26 copies. Discount triggers are set at 26, 100, 250, and 500+ books. "

Their cost calculator also confirms the 26 book discount point.

Just trying to help keep things straight.
:)

[Bardsandsages]

while initially had some intent to fill a market need of an alternate resale channel, no retailers want to buy from us unless we do 50% off and free shipping.

I've noticed this same problem with almost every distributor I have contacted to distribute Neiyar.  Some are as high as 60%!!!  By the gods, it's no wonder some game books retail for $40-$50.  It's the only way the publisher can make any money!  But from my experience working with other distributors for non-game related books, the discounts are closer to 35-45% for retailers.  I was absolutely shocked when I started realizing the difference between normal trade books and rpgs.

This whole notion seems so counter-productive.  Gamers want variety, not just Wizards and White Wolf.  But the discounts demanded by retailers makes it difficult for smaller presses and indies to get into the stores.  Gamers start looking elsewhere (or just create their own games) and eventually retailers lose their customer base and go out of business.  In the last two years, three game shops here in South Jersey have closed.  Now if I want to go to an actual game shop to browse, I need to drive over an hour to Pleasantville or go across the bridge into Philly (and I hate driving in Philly).

[daMoose_Neo]

...got a 404 on this first post and yet it went through...odd...

[daMoose_Neo]

I sense confusion.

RETAILERS get a 40% discount, DISTRIBUTORS get a 60% discount.
Thus, for a $10.00 product you sell to the Distributor for $4, and they in turn sell the book to the retailer for $6, who sells it for $10.
Thus you are right and wrong at the same time- right in that the retailer gets the 40/45% discount, wrong in the assumption the distributor buys it at that 55/60%.
So there really is no difference.

[rpghost]

Not sure where you're all getting those numbers, but listen to me as I am a retailer who pays these bills every day and know many in the industry who publish through the distribution system.

On average unless you're a big name the distributors want 60% off MSRP. They want you to ship it for free to them. If you're a non-name upstart and doing yet another d20 or don't have a marketing plan/budget or such, you'll be stuck dealing with a fulfillment house to get into the mainstream distribution channel. They (Impressions, Ossuem, etc) will charge you 15-18% more.

So you as a publisher without history, could easily look at getting only 25-30% of the MSRP in your pocket.

Most retailers average about a 47% off MSRP when ordering from distributors. Some large volume retailers can work that down to 50%.

You'll be getting paid for you products 90+ days out too. If you're lucky.

So, RPGMall is actually a very good deal since it was designed to give you 60% of your sale price (not 40 or less). But volume is where it's at and retailers didn't like only 40% off list.

As you state, many retailers are going out of business. So it's not like they're raking in the cash.

James

[Bardsandsages]

I sense confusion.

RETAILERS get a 40% discount, DISTRIBUTORS get a 60% discount.
Thus, for a $10.00 product you sell to the Distributor for $4, and they in turn sell the book to the retailer for $6, who sells it for $10.
Thus you are right and wrong at the same time- right in that the retailer gets the 40/45% discount, wrong in the assumption the distributor buys it at that 55/60%.
So there really is no difference.

There's no confusion.  I got e-mails from disiributors.  One said they offer 60.2% discount to retailers who prepay, and then they want 10% of the net profit on top of that!  Another said they offer 55% off to retailers, and want 5% of the gross take.  And did I mention that three of the four wanted me to sign an agreement that held them harmless in the event my inventory is lost or stolen while in their care?

RPGMall is a great deal.  I only hope shops stop thinking about the most profit per book and think about the future of their stores.  Gamers can by Wizards and White Wolf books cheaper anywhere now, and a lot cheaper than most shops.  Shops need to give gamers choices the main retailers don't have if they want to survive.

[daMoose_Neo]

@_@
Course too, with that, they're still talking about paying you 35%, which isn't a far cry from that 40% thats supposed to be standard. So the math still comes out~

[jdagna]

There's no confusion.  I got e-mails from disiributors.  One said they offer 60.2% discount to retailers who prepay, and then they want 10% of the net profit on top of that!  Another said they offer 55% off to retailers, and want 5% of the gross take.  And did I mention that three of the four wanted me to sign an agreement that held them harmless in the event my inventory is lost or stolen while in their care?

Which distributors are these?  I already do business with several, and have seen the terms and requirements from several others, and I haven't seen anything like that.  Everyone has been happy with the standard 60% off and free shipping (and I require a minimum order to get that, otherwise, it's 58% and they pay shipping).

Also, why would they have an agreement about what happens to inventory while they have it?  A distributor should be paying up front, so anything they're caring for is their property, not yours.  Are you thinking of consolidators/fulfillment houses (such as Osseum or Impressions) instead of actual distributors?