Narrativist/Director Stance/Diceless essays wanted

[darrick]

hey guys, i'm putting together a self-published book using Lulu.com...

1.  why Narrativist/Director (possibly some Actor included as well) Stance/Diceless approach to gaming is the best (or better).

2.  examples of how it works in various games.

3.  how any gamer can take a few rules/ideas set forth in this book and make their particular game N/D/D.

4.  emphasis on villainy, evil, and the anti-hero (cause that's where my heart is).

i've got a lot of material so far, but i'm looking for more, especially from a different, yet related, perspective than mine.  i'm also seeking non-jargon filled content that won't scare or confuse the lay gamer.  

this is a project done for the love of the game and will not be made for profit (hopefully some minor fame), but offered as a free pdf and cost of production book on Lulu.  i also plan to promote it on my website.

anyone that wants to add to my book or partner up, (yes, i might even take layout/format advice this time) please let me know.  email me at:  darrick@cultofcthulhu.net

thanks,
Darrick

http://www.cultofcthulhu.net

[Jonathan Walton]

Dude, do you actually believe that one approach to roleplaying is better than all the rest?  Because that seems kinda antithetical to the idea that some games support certain styles of play better than others, which is kinda the basis of "System Does Matter" and why I'm really into indie game design in the first place.

Speaking personally, I tend to prefer diceless, Narrativist-leaning play with a lot of player agency (involving "Director Stance" and other techniques), but I don't think it's the be-all and end-all of roleplaying, just because I happen to like it most of the time.

So I'd be all for getting involved in a volunteer project to talk about progressive roleplaying, but the extreme stance you're taking here has got me kind of worried.  Maybe if you mentioned what the rest of the material you've gathered talks about, I could decide if what I can say on the subject fits within the framework of this project.

[Alan]

Hi Darrick,

I applaud the desire to demonstrate other ways to play and design roleplaying games.  

However, I agree with Jonathan -- saying one style of play is "the best" is anathema to Forge theory.  We do often say that a particular rule suports a particular play experience better -- but these assessments are based on how well the rule works with the other rules to create the play experience that the designer intends.  We acknowledge that there are many types of positive play experience and so there are many valid design goals.

I think the fact that you associate diceless play with narrativism indicates a misunderstanding of what we call narrativist play.  (Check out http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/27/">The Provisional Glossary and http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/25/" >Narrativism: Story Now.)

"Diceless" play can simply mean play without dice (but perhaps using cards or coins tosses or some other fortune device), but speakers usually mean "play without any fortune mechanic at all" -- which leaves only Karma resolution (highest score wins, as in Amber) or Drama resolution (best performance/description wins, as often seen in Theatrix play).

After four years of following indie rpg design, I don't know of any intentionally-designed narrativist-supporting rpg that uses only karma or drama resolution.  The ones I know all use fortune: Sorcerer,  Trollbabe, Dust Devils, The Riddle of Steel, Alyria, Nine Worlds, the Pool, The Shadow of Yesterday, etc.

Associating narrativism with drama resolution would be a severe misunderstanding of what narrativist play is.  Drama resolution alone actually favors player performance and detailed description -- elements common in simulationist play.  Narrativism requires focus on addressing premise, crux moments where player actions force proto-theme elements to converge -- and because risk intensifies such moments, some sort of fortune mechanic is usually used.

I strongly urge you to separate "diceless" from "narrativist" in your thinking and in your book.  I hope you have separate essays on these subjects.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I'd like to add my support to what Jonathan and Alan have posted.

Best,
Ron

[darrick]

ok, i guess i thought my objective was obvious.  and that is, the book is a limited take on one perspective.  this 120 page or so book will not cover all aspects.  but it's small focus will be the "best of" that style of play.  or why anyone would want to play a game like that.  a ho hum, "here is this approach, some people like it." to me, sounds very boring and won't capture anyone's imagination, let alone convince them to give that new play style a chance in their own weekly game.  and who knows, i might want to do a second project that's all about "the superiority of Actor Stance Sim.  

i just think it's important to champion one perspective at a time.  i'd rather read a book about why someone thinks Spider Man is "the best", instead of a book that deals with Spider Man who is equally on par with Aqua Man, Thor, the Fantastic Four, etc.  that "all about Spider Man" guy will certainly have a more appealing take on his subject matter.

it probably would have better for you guys to email me first before assuming i was... insane.  ah well, no harm done.

D
http://www.cultofcthulhu.net

[darrick]

oh yeah, and going back to Alan's post, yes i know that Narrative and Diceless are separate things.  again, i was going for a narrow approach.  although i can see the benefits of Drama Sim, Diceless Sim, and other Narrative style essays.  shoot me what you've got to say and if i like it, i'll put it in.

first, though, we need a dialogue that doesn't start off with me being anathema and antithetical to the game theory family.  as comfortable as i am with being the Opposer/Antagonist/Satan, i'd rather have some kinship based on mutual understanding and trust.  how can you understand what's in my head before you ask me?

D
http://www.cultofcthulhu.net

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

That is a very fair point, Darrick.

Everyone - constructive comments!

Thanks,
Ron

[Ben Lehman]

Darrick --

Is your goal to look at these three things (Narrativism, Diceless, Director Stance) as three seperate things?  Or is it to try to forge them together into a particular, narrow whole thing?  If it is the second, I'd love to see a little bit more about how you plan to do that, because it is far from intuitive to me how these three things work together in your mind and at your gaming table.

yrs--
--Ben

[komradebob]

Darrick:

I'm working on something that sort of goes into this territory, and I'm wondering about your take on it.  For purposes of clarity, could you please define your understanding of the terms?

Robert
edited for spelling.

[darrick]

hey Ben, yes it's the latter.  i'm trying to incorporate them all into one style of game play.  really what i'm getting at is Player Empowerment, Cooperative Storytelling, Creative Authority, and not relying on dice to decide actions/outcomes.  finally, i want to take that approach teach people how to implement it in mass market, mainstream games as well as indie or self made RPG's.

anything that makes that easier for people to understand and use, i want to include.  there's probably other styles that would also facilitate this, maybe called by some other jargon?  if so, please bring it to my attention.  it's the story, the creative gestalt, and most of all the fun i'm interested in.

i didn't know any other roleplaying approach (besides the standard) was possible before finding the Forge and being introduced to new games and new concepts.  i want to give regular gamers a chance to "live free or die".   something like that anyways.

i've got a good start on the document so far, if anyone wants to look it over and see what i've missed or what should be included, just email me and i'll send it to you.  email:  darrick@cultofcthulhu.net

D

http://www.cultofcthulhu.net

[Ben Lehman]

i'm trying to incorporate them all into one style of game play.  really what i'm getting at is Player Empowerment, Cooperative Storytelling, Creative Authority, and not relying on dice to decide actions/outcomes.  finally, i want to take that approach teach people how to implement it in mass market, mainstream games as well as indie or self made RPG's.

BL>  Hey, man, I think you misunderstand.  What you want to do sounds awesome.  What confuses me is how this all fits together.  Until I understand that, I can't really give you any writing advice, or advice about anything to read (well, a little bit, but I can't be nearly as useful to you.)

What I am reading here sounds like "I've got lemon, red snapper, pepper and fifteen pounds of rock sugar, and I'm going to turn into into the best beverage you've ever drunk!"  Which, I'm like, "Yeah, awesome!" but I have no idea what you're going to do, what it is going to taste like, or how you're going to go about doing it.

I would love to look at the document.  Can you post a link?

Also, here's a couple of things to check out: Old posts to my gaming journal.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/benlehman/68251.html">The Revolution will not be Textualized (about RPG's potential as a revolutionary social force)
http://www.livejournal.com/users/benlehman/60747.html">Basic Probablity Lesson (it's about diceless play)

yrs--
--Ben

[darrick]

hey Ben, food for thought.  i don't think that the diceless implies hidden.  if my fighter with a Strength of 17 is going to arm wrestle your rogue with a Strength of 14, should we even bother rolling?  seriously.  why throw an "act of god" in there where i roll a 1 and you roll a 20?  every player and the GM knows what's going on, and everything is out in the open.  nothing hidden that i can see.  

i can provide a link to my Diceless Empire of Satanis essay which i want to include in the book:  http://www.cultofcthulhu.net/eos2.htm

however, that is extremely EoS specific, although my whole idea is that the ideas can be extrapolated to any role-playing game.  

i see traditional RPG play as a dictatorship.  all i want to do is break that down and make it a democracy, or at least a republic.  i'll give you a few examples so you see what i mean...

Traditional style

GM:  ok, you guys are in a tavern.  you overhear some guys mentioning an evil temple by the eastern wall of the tavern underneath an ornate-looking sword used for decoration.

Rogue:  i walk closer to listen, trying to be sneaky and incospicuous.

GM:  Ok, roll your sneakiness.

Rogue:  i rolled a 3.

GM:  Ok, even though your being quiet, your a rogue, and they are distracted, they hear you and notice your easdropping.

Fighter:  I walk over, say "excuse me" and take a better look at that sword.

GM:  ok, it's an ordinary sword.  nothing special about it.

Fighter:  Are you sure?  i take it off the wall and examine it.

GM:  hey, who's GM?  Yes, i'm sure.  in fact, it's plastic.  yep, it's a plastic sword for kids.

Fighter:  oh, ok.  i ask about the evil temple thingy.


the Style i'm proposing with the same events...

GM:  ok, tavern, evil temple, guy's talkin, sword.

Rogue:  get close quietly and listen.

GM:  ok, tell me how?

Rogue:  i make it look like i'm engaged in another conversation nearby, i laugh loudly and obnoxiously so people will try to ignore me.  meanwhile, i'll keep an ear peeled for info. on that temple business.

GM:  cool, your unnoticed.

Fighter:  hmm. a sword eh?  i get closer, i want this to be a magic sword, maybe a sword waiting for its champion?!  i walk over and say, "excuse me, interesting stuff about that temple.  i'm just going to have a look at that pig sticker, if you don't mind."

GM:  very well, as you hold it, you find that it is indeed magical, there are glyphs of a prophecy upon the blade as well.  everyone in the tavern gasps and whispers around you.

_______________________

ok, the latter is what i have in mind.  maybe it's me, but my style seems to enhance the game for everyone.  that could be just straight D&D, except using Narrativism, Director Stance, and Diceless.  please correct me if i'm wrong.  maybe i'm getting my jargon wires crossed?  

regardless of what it's called, i've only played in a few games like that, but it feels right to me.  personally, i believe it to be subjectively superior...

Darrick
http://www.cultofcthulhu.net

[Alan]

Hi Darrick,

Here's an example of yet another style, using the rules of Ron's game called Trollbabe:

GM: ok, you are in a tavern.  Some guys are talking in the corner.

Player: Ok, I sidle over and try to evesdrop.

GM: Ok, they don't notice you.  They look like simple farmers.  They're talking about the harvest.

Player: I want a conflict roll.  

GM: Oh?  Ok, what are the stakes?

Player: Well, I want to catch them exchanging secret signs without being noticed.

GM: That sounds fine.  I suppose if you fail, you'll be kicked out of the bar or get a bad rep in town.

Player: ok.  I roll.  I failed!  Good!  

[Under Trollbabe rules, one of the things at stake when you roll the die is who gets final authority on the results -- for failure, it's the player; for success, the GM.]

Player (cont): I'm leaning in and they catch me.  One of them makes an arcane gesture and all of a sudden half the patrons mob me.  The innkeeper opens a secret door and I'm hustled through into the dark.

GM: Cool!  Looks like you've just found a hotbed of evil cultist activity!    End Scene?

Player: Yeah, I think so.  

---------------------

Just an example of how a game can have player empowerment, cooperative storytelling, and player creative authority -- and a die roll.

[Jonathan Walton]

Hey Darrick,

I didn't assume that you were insane and actually think Alan went a bit far in saying that "the best!" style thinking was anathema.  But that's neither here nor there.  I was interested in hearing you talk more about what you were looking for and, now that you've done that, I think that our interests overlap quite a bit.

What kind of deadlines are you looking at for submitting things to include?  How long are you wanting these pieces to be?  Should interested people just email you a few paragraphs, describing what they want to write about?  I have a bunch of projects that I'm working on at the moment, but might be able to make time to write something.  I might be willing to help with layout too, depending.

[darrick]

cools.  the Trollbabe idea sounds very interesting.  what would happen if that guy made his roll, would he see the secret signs without being discovered?  is it a straight 50% roll?  occasionally, it might be beneficial (to the story) for the GM to decide the failure and the player the success, or perhaps some other player at the table has a flash of insight on how things should go.  i personally like to encourage a natural flow of the story without arbitraty dice and you do this, i'll do that.  maybe one person at the table is having an off night idea-wise and someone else might be very "hot" creatively.  maybe some sessions the GM does most of the work, and others the players direct things and the GM coordinates and facilitates.  

i don't have one "right" way to run a game, so if you wanted to further explore that and how people would implement it in someone's game, that would be cool.  especially if you believe that to be "the best" approach to most RPG's.  for instance, do you think that style would be great for a Vampire, Cthulhu, Deadlands, or Ninja Burger?  maybe it is?  although you should ask Ron if he wants his idea as the focal point for an essay or whatever.  (regardless, i'll take a closer look at the Trollbabe's system - thanks for the suggestion)

Hey Jon, deadline, good idea.  i'm thinking about having a near-ready manuscript by July 1st, that means getting something to me between now and sometime in June.  (i want to have lulu book copies availabe for GenCon)  also wouldn't mind some art.  for length, anything from a couple paragraphs to a few pages or a whole chapter.  yeah, just write something you want gamers to hear, gamers that have never visited the Forge...  maybe they've played a grand total of 5 RPG sessions in their life?  i'll show you my stuff and you show me yours.  that's about it.

thanks, D
http://www.cultofcthulhu.net