Aaaaahhhhh, or: the need for simulationism in Horror RPG's

[Remko]

Hi all,

This is my first thread here on the Forge. I'm currently lurking about and I'm not sure whether this subject is already discussed, but still...

Situation: I like horror RPG's. Not only the typical Lovecraft/Poe style, but more in the dramatic type like WW's Vampire and Werewolf. The fear of losing control of yourself or of other things.

Personally, I haven't played too much narrative games, but I really like the themelike choosing. Main problem: I'm searching for a mechanic in which personal horror is possible, but also would like to play a narrative game.

IMHO, this isn't possible, because the main 'angst'-factor is coming from the lack of control in some situations.

Or am I wrong?

[Mike Holmes]

Complicated topic. Basically, can you scare yourself?

If you can't scare yourself, if you as a player need external stimuli to be scared, then, yeah, I think that you need some element of sim for it to work. This is very hard, however. Basically if you're not feeling that you are the character, then the best you can get is the feeling that you get for a character in a movie - except that you don't have all of the advantages of a movie like special effects, and a dark theater.

If you are capable of scaring yourself, then narrativism is fine. In fact, if you can be scared for other people, in general, then you can get scared by what's happening to the other people's characters.

In fact, Nar can be scariest at times, because you know it was you, the real character that created the thematic statement.

For instance, your character has a choice, saw off their own arm and save a friend who's drowning, or let the friend drown. The GM isn't forcing you to make either decision, it's entirely up to you what horrific thing happens. Would making such a decision be "scary?"

If you think that the GM "forcing" you to make such a decision isn't narrativism, well then you're just confused as to what narrativism is all about. It's not just about giving the player control of events. The only control that the player must have is the control to make decisions.

So, no, sim isn't required for horror, unless what you're looking for is to feel that it's really you that's being threatened. And even then it's only good under the right, uncommon, circumstances. Note that you can even do fear with gamism, but you have to make sure that part of the player challenge is not to resist fearing what's going on. I think that happens a lot in horror RPGs, and it ruins any chance of horror. OTOH, if a game actually rewarded you for getting into horrific situations or something...

Mike

[xenopulse]

Remko,

Welcome to the Forge! :)

Just a quick thought from me: What if you had choices, but they were all horrible? I.e., do I stay and be caught by that evil thing, or run and leave my family behind? Do I abuse innocents in order to satisfy my needs and keep me from turning into a completely uncontrollable monster (see Vampire)? Do I keep on fighting and sacrificing even though everything turns to ashes around me anyway (Werewolf)?

I think you can have strong themes in a horror game, it just depends on how you set them up, and what kind of choices the characters will be faced with.

Now, we only need to come up with good mechanisms to work these angles, because I never thought the WoD games were living up to their potential (though Vampire's Humanity mechanic has some merit).

[Remko]

So, no, sim isn't required for horror, unless what you're looking for is to feel that it's really you that's being threatened. And even then it's only good under the right, uncommon, circumstances. Note that you can even do fear with gamism, but you have to make sure that part of the player challenge is not to resist fearing what's going on. I think that happens a lot in horror RPGs, and it ruins any chance of horror. OTOH, if a game actually rewarded you for getting into horrific situations or something...

Hmm, ok. I think I get it. Does this mean I shouldn't require a mechanic? An I should choose to give two bad options, like Xeno is suggesting?

The reason I address this is because: Why should I add a mechanic, when it won't has any consequence to the story or one of the PC's at hand?

I must mention I haven't been able to order Sorcerer yet (I do have an order going), and the thing Sorcerer tries is exactly that? Creating horror because of two bad choices (letting demons roam the world or getting corrupted by the sheer power of the demon?)?

[Mike Holmes]

Well... it all depends.

Take for example what happens in a game of Sorcerer like this. The premise is very much not what you've stated, and varies a lot from game to game. In one set up we had, the characters' demons were basically their animalistic side. So I took a very classic version and said that my character had wolf spirits. So the basic question is whether it's better to take power to get what he wanted, and potentially lose control (0 humanity), or to eschew the power?

In such a situation all you have to do is present the player with opportunities to get things done using the power that the demon's provide. For example, my werewolf was very good at killing people when in wolf form. So if/when he was presented with a life/death situation, automatically the question pops up.

This just lends itself to situations that are horrific. No, you don't need a mechanic to get such a situation as we're suggesting. You could do that, actually, but it's not required. But having the humanity mechanic in Sorcerer means that when you do make such decisions the system reinforces the importance of them.

So, no, don't make a mechanic to set up situations that are horrific  - instead make mechanics that point to the horror implicit in situations.

Mike

[Remko]

So the basic question is whether it's better to take power to get what he wanted, and potentially lose control (0 humanity), or to eschew the power?

So, no, don't make a mechanic to set up situations that are horrific  - instead make mechanics that point to the horror implicit in situations.
Mike

You mean the humanity score in Sorcerer as a mechanic that point to the horror? Is it comparable with WW's humanity in Vampire?

[GB Steve]

The humanity score in Sorcerer is far more central to the game than it is in Vampire. It's one of many mechanisms in Vampire and never features in many games. In Sorcerer, it's core. The premise of the game is all about how much humanity you are prepared to sacrifice to achieve your goals. As it says on the back of the book, "How far will you go to get what you want?"

Humanity is also a lot lower in Sorcerer so you have to make some careful choices if you're not to risk losing your character.

My Life with Master is another narrative horror game, and octaNe (post apocalyptic road warriory) can be played as such in Grind House or Cinéma Vérité modes.