[Polaris] Key Phrases

[Valamir]

I've had this thought following a number of Polaris play posts.  I haven't been able to study the game since the old outdated version, but the key phrases seem to be even more key now then they were then.

I don't know the design philosophy behind the use of key phrases...so what I like best about them might not be Ben's intent at all...but what I like is that they sound like a story teller ages later relating a tale that has been passed down through oral traditions over generations.  All of the "And so it came to pass"s and "But that was long ago and there are none now who remember"s really draw on the repetition of key stanzas that are common...almost ritualized in oral storytelling tradition.  I LOVE that.


But, at times, it seems like the key phrases shift a bit in a way that I find very jarring (like an unexpected tense shift).

The biggest culprit for me is "But only if".  See "But only if" is explicitly ritualized negotiation...its not a phrase that a story teller ages later would ever use.  When reading a transcript of play this phrase really yanks me out of the imagery of listening to ancient shaman relating the last forgotten legends of his tribe and back into "oh...there's a game going on".

Consider:

Player 1: "Jonah escapes from the ravenous demon on the back of his mantis steed"
Player 2:  "But only if he is deeply scarred across the back by the demons final clutching claws"
Player 1:  "And so it was"

See how if these sentences were strung together in an epic poem the "only if" part would kind of stick out.


What would the effect on game play be if "But only if" were replaced with something like "But not before"  so that the above would read:

Player 1: "Jonah escapes from the ravenous demon on the back of his mantis steed"
Player 2:  "But not before he is deeply scarred across the back by the demons final clutching claws"
Player 1:  "And so it was"


That, to me, seems much more natural a phrase and would enable a transcript of the game to actually be assembled almost verbatim into an epic poem.


Thoughts?

[Keith Senkowski]

Ralph,

I think you are on to something there.  It flows nicer.  I don't see how "But not before" would run into any trouble if it replaced "But only if"

Keith

[Emily Care]

Heya Ralph,

How do you feel about the other key phrase "you ask far too much?" That's pretty dialogue-ish, rather than story-telling-ish, which is what I would pick out as being odd about "but only if".  The storyteller around the fire wouldn't have been telling the tale back & forth with the listeners.  But the interplay (obviously) is needed for the mechanics.  

Other phrasings that come to mind for "but only if" are...

but the fates decreed

and as it came to pass

Actually, but not before is pretty good.  What might be more right about but only if, is that it might make what is being negotiated between the players more clear and aid play.

best,
Em

[Valamir]

Yeah "You ask Far too Much" jars me in the same way...I didn't mention it only because I hadn't thought of a smooth replacement phrase.

Perhaps something like "But it proved beyond him" or "S/He was not Great Enough" or just "But it proved too much" would work.  As in:


Player 1: "Jonah escapes from the ravenous demon on the back of his mantis steed"
Player 2: "But it proved too much and the demon caught him in a single bound and devoured the steed in a frenzy of ripping and crunching"
Player 1: "But not before Jonah lept from the saddle and slipped away while the demon was thus distracted"
Player 2: "And so it was"



Question:  In the actual game "But only if" is a negotiated "yes, but"

Is "You as Far too Much" strictly a veto?  Meaning if one were to write the story of the game out in "Epic Poem" fashion...would the "YaFtM" and the statements that preceeded them be edited out as events that never actually happened?  Or is is more like a "No, and" like I did above?

[Blankshield]

Yeah "You ask Far too Much" jars me in the same way...I didn't mention it only because I hadn't thought of a smooth replacement phrase.

Perhaps something like "But it proved beyond him" or "S/He was not Great Enough" or just "But it proved too much" would work.  As in:


Player 1: "Jonah escapes from the ravenous demon on the back of his mantis steed"
Player 2: "But it proved too much and the demon caught him in a single bound and devoured the steed in a frenzy of ripping and crunching"
Player 1: "But not before Jonah lept from the saddle and slipped away while the demon was thus distracted"
Player 2: "And so it was"



Question:  In the actual game "But only if" is a negotiated "yes, but"

Is "You as Far too Much" strictly a veto?  Meaning if one were to write the story of the game out in "Epic Poem" fashion...would the "YaFtM" and the statements that preceeded them be edited out as events that never actually happened?  Or is is more like a "No, and" like I did above?

It's a veto and rewrite.  If I use it, it's all I say.  Then the onus falls back on you to state something smaller in scope as a replacement for your original statement.

'but it was not meant to be' is also a rollback which means the last two things did not happen.

James

[Harlequin]

That's an interesting point.  In terms of the specific usage of "You ask far too much" I think that the jarring effect, the mis-fit to the narrative, is a bonus - because it helps reinforce the non-narrative nature of the veto/rewrite process.

I do have a problem with "But not before," though, because one of the cool things Ben's managed with the phrases is that they have the same kind of loose relationship with time and causality that a Raise or See in Dogs has.  I mean, any of these is currently legit:

Sir Vega leapt to the back of his steed and raced away, leaving the demons hungry, far behind him.
But only if three years before, unknown to him, Sir Vega's wife had lain with one of those very same demons in their marriage bed.
(Ow!) And so it came to pass.

Sir Vega leapt to the back of his steed and raced away, leaving the demons hungry, far behind him.
But only if at that very instant, unknown to him, Sir Vega's wife lay down with one of those very same demons in their marriage bed.
(Ow again!) And so it came to pass.

Sir Vega leapt to the back of his steed and raced away, leaving the demons hungry, far behind him.
But only if in a year's time, inexorably, Sir Vega's wife shall lie with one of those very same demons in their marriage bed.
(Ow a third time!) And so it came to pass.

In order to preserve that acausality, I suspect any replacement phrase would need to be somewhat out-of-sequence in terms of its presence in the narration.  To what extent it jars, at that point, may well be a balancing act.

I can certainly think of cases where "but not unless" would work in more smoothly, for instance.  But I think that the ritual nature of the process would lose more to allowing variety in the phrases, than the smoothness of play would gain from the same.  So it's definitely "pick one" territory when it comes to these.

There's also the learning curve issue.  I'll bet that the explicitly negotiated nature of the "But only if" phrase, of all of them, makes it the most accessible.  And accessibility isn't Polaris' strong suit.

This isn't to say that Ben (or someone else) might not come up with a phrase that does all of those things better.  But I do suspect that both the acausality and the accessibility are in tension with smoother ritualization of the phrase...

- Eric

[Ben Lehman]

but what I like is that they sound like a story teller ages later relating a tale that has been passed down through oral traditions over generations. All of the "And so it came to pass"s and "But that was long ago and there are none now who remember"s really draw on the repetition of key stanzas that are common...almost ritualized in oral storytelling tradition.

The goal of the Polaris conflict system are twofold:

1) Be a good conflict resolution system for the Polaris game.

2) To be highly colorful.

(Note that, of course, #2 supports #1, as proper color will provide proper inspiration for the conflict.)

The main point here is that the primary goal is #1.  Is it cool to have a conflict resolution system that sounds just like an old storyteller?  Yes, it is.  Is it a better role-playing game?  No, not necessarily.

A role-playing game requires certain things that a single-teller story does not.  Primarily, it requires a way to make tentative statements, conditional statements, to contradict statements and to revise statements.  A good storyteller does none of these things, and a good role-playing game must do all of these things.  I simply think that there is no way to turn the conditional and opposition statements into things that sound like story material.  (It shall not come to pass and but it was not meant to be are also things you will never ever hear a good story-teller say.)

Now, that isn't to say that I don't have some problems with a few of the phrases as they stand.  If there was a way to make "But only if..." more colorful and more tentative, I would snap at it.  The problem with the proposals in this thread is that they are much less tentative or, as Eric points out, bound to causality in an unpleasant way.  Also, "and furthermore" could be more colorful and a little less causally bound."

Thanks for the interest in the game!  It's cool to see a Polaris thread not directly started by me or a playtester.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  "You ask far too much" is a demand that the other player revise their statement.

[Callan S.]

"But only if" is jarring because its politely proposing something and asking for it to be accepted/given cred. And story tellers don't ask for cred when they add something, they just tell (the crowd can clear off if they don't like it).

This reminds me of the 'immersion is selfishness' threads. In that trying to avoid any terms which make you realise your in a game, will mean doing away with polite negotiation for cred. In favour of pretending such a thing isn't needed.

[hardcoremoose]

My 2 cents...

I've never had a problem reading the Polaris actual play accounts.  It's definitely different than what I'm used to, but I don't find it aesthetically displeasing at all.  Quite the opposite actually.

I think Ben's right on by putting design goals first and color second.  I think too often we design to emulate other mediums of storytelling, without necessarily embracing the things that make rpgs unique (I'm guilty, I cop to it).  That Polaris reminds us of the oral storytelling tradition without obeying its strictures is not just okay, it's one of its strengths.

- Scott

[Mike Holmes]

I dunno. If you're going to emulate the format, then why not go all it? Why not improve it if a better version is available?

That said, the vision that the key phrases always gives me is not of a storyteller, but of an ongoing narration by the Fates. Like they're actually creating ongoing action on a thread just by reading it in past tense. When one of the players, acting as a Fate says, "You ask too much!" yeah, they're stepping out of the story creation role of the Fates, and coming in as arbitrators of destiny (I imagine the Fate grabbing the thread right there and not allowing it to spool on, until the problem is resolved). The "but not unless" and others fit this mode as well.

Uh, I just flashed on an idea. We often say in Universalis that it's good to have some token to pass when a player is narrating. Well, for Polaris, I'm seeing a thread coming off a spindle being ritually pulled as the player narrates indicating that they're creating in-game action. Then the other player grabs the thread when he says "You ask too much!", etc.

Mike

[Ben Lehman]

That said, the vision that the key phrases always gives me is not of a storyteller, but of an ongoing narration by the Fates. Like they're actually creating ongoing action on a thread just by reading it in past tense.

BL>  See, I think this is awesome how everyone gets their own image of what you *are* playing in Polaris conflict.  (And, yeah, I have my own, but I'm not going to share it for fear of creating a canonical interpretation.)

How's this for an answer for this thread: I fully expect the exact wording of the Key Phrases, Key Conflict Phrases in particular, to drift during long term play, according to the group's interpretations of the game.

In other words: If you like "But not before..." better than "And furthermore..." you should use it.

yrs--
--Ben