Pools and Refreshment: Instinct vs Vigor

[Andy Kitkowski]

So one of the hard points for me with TSOY is determining the dividing line between Instinct and Vigor for purposes of refreshing pools.

Could someone break it down for me?  

Here is a description of the Pools:

Vigor represents the character's reserves of physical power, wherewithal, and mental toughness. Characters with high Vigor are often known for bulging muscles, scarred faces, calloused hands, the "thousand-yard stare," and crushing strength.

Instinct represents the character's reserves of animal-like reactions, both physical and social. This ranges from cat-like reflexes in combat to pheromone-like sexual attraction. Characters with high Instinct are often known for their graceful motion, penetrating eyes, amazing hearing, stunning appearance, or sexual prowess.

Here is a description of refreshment:

Vigor is refreshed by eating a hot meal and spending a night in revelry. Drinking liquor, taking part in exuberant sex, using drugs, or going to a loud and wild music performance are all good examples.

Instinct is refreshed by performing a substantial act of physical exertion for purposes of enjoyment or exercise, not because of danger. This could be anything from a five-mile run to a night of dancing to spending a morning in the cold hunting elk.

Hmmmm. It seems to me that some of the Vigor refreshment stuff should be for Instinct ("sexual prowess/attraction"-> Sexual Healing refreshment) , and vice versa (Vigor's Physical Power, muscle, mental fortitude -> physical exertion).

Can someone clarify a little why they seem reversed? By what we think of when we hear the words "Instinct and Vigor", the Pool descriptions seem spot on, but refreshment seems reversed.

Ex:  
Player says, "I go on the prowl, looking for a hot momma to bed tonight."
I think, "Instinct".

Player says, "I go to the yard of the monastary, and do pushups with a 50-kilo Buddha statue on my back".
I think, "Vigor! ...or maybe Instinct".

I watch Buffy, where she does her little stunt-double faux karate practice routine in the exercise room, and I think "Vigor".

I watch Empire, where Luke is running with Yoda on his back: "Vigor"
Where he is standing on one hand: "Instinct. Maybe.  Or Reason"
And where he goes into the Evil Cave: "Reason".

Basically, many of the characters in the group have martial arts, and engage in interesting refreshment scenes (not always "I go off and do a kata"), but I'm always unsure of whether to give them Vigor or Instinct (it depends on how they describe the training, I guess).

The female kung-fu monk in the group needed to refresh Vigor, but looking at the book it looked like she would have to carouse or engage in excesses.  It wasn't her thing.  So I figured that eating a good meal and taking a dip in a hot spring would regain vigor.  But I felt a little unsure on the issue.

Anyone have an idea of clearing up the line between Vigor and Instinct for refreshment purposes?

-Andy

[Clinton R. Nixon]

You know you can do more than one at once, right? They're written so you could pretty easily refresh all in one evening.

Anyway.

I totally see your point. My primary reference on the pools was from reading Conan, where the Vigor and Instinct as written make perfect sense. But, they could be reversed.

I keep running into sharp edges that need to be filed in TSOY (especially with my new game I'm running - we've completely re-done Bringing Down the  Pain.) This is a good example. Here's a clarification:

Vigor is refreshed whenever you engage in an act of physical exertion (including physical abuse, such as drugs, drinking, staying out all night) with another character, specifically for the intent of enjoying yourself. If it is a physical contest, you must win.

Instinct is refreshed whenever you engage in an act of social pleasure (examples: a date, going to a party) with another character. If it is a social contest, you must win.

Reason is refreshed whenever you engage in an act of intellectual stimulation (examples: a night at the opera, a philosophical debate) with another another. If it is an intellectual contest, you must win.

Those can be considered pretty official, actually. With a little editing, that's how they'd go in a revised version.

[Valamir]

That seems pretty good, but I'm not sure about the "must win" part.  I know alot of guys who "refresh" themselves by shooting hoops and half the time they don't even remember what the score is.

I'd suggest leaving off the "must win" from the regular rules and then tie that idea in with a Key...like...

The Key of Competition:  Pool refreshes that come from a Physical, Social, or Intellectual competition (as opposed to a non competitive event) earn 1 XP.  If before the competition the player makes his refreshment contingent on winning, the competition earns 2 XPs.

[Andy Kitkowski]

You know you can do more than one at once, right? They're written so you could pretty easily refresh all in one evening.

Yeah, thing is my players have this feeling that it's a little "cheap" to say something like, "I read a book while in a tavern drinking while getting a BJ from a Tunisian princess".  They don't mind, in a "Day of the Game World", waking up in the morning and practicing with their sword (Vigor pool), then reading a scroll on their journey through the mountains (Reason), and finally fucking at night to replenish that Instinct.  They just like to have a little "game space" in between refreshes.

I totally see your point. My primary reference on the pools was from reading Conan, where the Vigor and Instinct as written make perfect sense. But, they could be reversed.

Yeah, when you say that I can totally see it. In the context of Conan it's pretty much Vigor = Partying and Storytelling, Instinct = Hunting and Running, etc.

I keep running into sharp edges that need to be filed in TSOY (especially with my new game I'm running - we've completely re-done Bringing Down the  Pain.) This is a good example. Here's a clarification:

Color me intrigued.  I'd love to hear about it, so I'm going to start a new topic on this if you don't mind.  I'll post it in a few mins.

VIGOR, INSTINCT, REASON

Interesting.  I'm kinda with Ralph on the "Must Win" bit, but I guess I could roll either way.  Most of the time, the players just sort of talk about the circumstances surrounding their refreshes (exercising, painting a scene in a tavern where something happens, etc).  Sometimes the Pool Refreshment bits lead to conflicts (and side plots), sometimes they don't.

In my Humble but Ontologically Correct opinion, :-)
I think that it would be cool for each pool refresh scene to suggest ways that it can be refreshed by human contact (and the examples point to this), and one or two ways where you can do it without human contact.

Ex: Vigor: Drinking! Physical Competition! Revelry! Also, Weight lifting, mountain climbing, practicing Iron Palm.
Instinct: Fucking! Dating! Socializing! Also, practicing martial arts, hunting, etc.
Reason: Debate! Acts of creation! Also, reading dusty tomes, observing meaningful cultural events or exhibits, etc.

Those can be considered pretty official, actually. With a little editing, that's how they'd go in a revised version.

Interesting.  Man, I gotta hand it to you, TSOY is a slick game, and as-is I see lots of folks running games in their own worlds with the rules as written as I do seeing them run in Near.

Thing is, it's obvious that for Near, a Conan-style interpretation of the pool refreshes is totally fitting.  For the game I run ( a faux China game), I'm thinking that some fine tuning of the pool refreshment in fitting with the background of the game is needed.  

These days I hate to see folks be like, "Oh, I like Game A!  I'm going to take it, change ALL the rules, and run a game of B with it!" But man, TSOY is a blueprint for D&D Done Right, and so ripe to be used in Your Homebrew World.  It seems that "Make your own Racial and Cultural Secrets and Keys" is a given for your homebrew worlds, but with the pools, maybe tweaking refreshment to fit the flavor of the world is in order. Not the pools themselves, really, just a re-examination of the criteria for refreshment. Kind of in the same way that you need to define Humanity for a game of Sorcerer...

Just a thought.

[Brennan Taylor]

Those can be considered pretty official, actually. With a little editing, that's how they'd go in a revised version.

I'll want to come back to you on this, Clinton, and your revised Bringing Down the Pain rules, so that Fifth World is as up-to-date as possible.

[Andy Kitkowski]

I'll want to come back to you on this, Clinton, and your revised Bringing Down the Pain rules, so that Fifth World is as up-to-date as possible.

Well, honestly, I was thinking that a little, too.  But hell, on the other hand the game is Creative Commons.  So while I totally want to hear Clinton's latest and greatest ideas on his game, at the end of the day I'll probably just go with my own heart and interests for my own TSOY-Meets-Homebrew World games.  :-)

Just remember that if, in the end, you disagree with the "up to date" changes, you can always go with a system that works with how you roll.

-Andy

[Brennan Taylor]

Just remember that if, in the end, you disagree with the "up to date" changes, you can always go with a system that works with how you roll.

These changes are actually all making sense to me, Andy, including the new BDTP rules. The old way was a bit tough for me to wrap my head around sometimes, and I do like the fact that Stay Up isn't the single most important ability on the sheet any more.

[ffilz]

That seems pretty good, but I'm not sure about the "must win" part. I know alot of guys who "refresh" themselves by shooting hoops and half the time they don't even remember what the score is.

Doesn't that just imply that it isn't a contest? If you aren't keeping score, it isn't a contest.

Frank

[Kaare Berg]

Thing is, it's obvious that for Near, a Conan-style interpretation of the pool refreshes is totally fitting. For the game I run ( a faux China game), I'm thinking that some fine tuning of the pool refreshment in fitting with the background of the game is needed.

This here intrigued me greatly. It so fits with the idea I am playing with (another post-to-be).

It seems that how to refresh pools are as much a way to define the game world as cultural secrets and keys. Subtle and smooth.